James Orengo

Sen. Orengo) :The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Orengo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, he should have notified your office so that the matter is then properly placed. Otherwise, all of us will just listen to claims from him, the Chair and now the Senate Minority Whip has also brought another angle....

On that, I have a letter copied to me. December 4, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 8

Sen. Orengo): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. As you give direction on this matter, I recall that in the last Parliament where we were together with you, some Petitions lasted for more than six months and some a year. I request the Chair to give direction...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Wamatangi, you may proceed. December 4, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 17

Committee, Second Reading or Committee of the Whole stage. You should be concerned about the status of Bills falling under the Committee.Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, can you give direction on account of this particular Bill? I know there are so many other Bills, but on this one because of the...

Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., you may proceed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in fact, the correct position is that when we had our own Kamkunji at The Intercontinental Hotel, Members had several amendments. There were contentious about the 16 or 20 per cent road levy, et cetera. Members submitted their recommendations and proposed amendments to the Committee to...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Thank you. You say that she keeps the House alive. Is it dead sometimes? (Laughter) Nothing prevents you from bringing a Motion after the end of the week. Proceed Sen. (Eng.) Mahamud and, kindly be brief.

Sen. Orengo) :(Loud consultations) Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to inform Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., the Senate Minority Whip, that in the case of the Senator of Nairobi County, the previous occupant of that office has got largesse so it is possible for him to seek a shorter route....

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Allow me to quickly commend the Chairperson of the Committee on County Public Accounts and Investments. We severally raised issues on the Floor of this House regarding the pace of the audit reports because we were getting reports for many years back but we...

Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :Second Reading

Would you like to speak immediately? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Finally, once the Chairperson of the Sessional Committee on Delegated Legislation completes their Statement and observations thereunder, the next Order to be called out will be Order No.14 and the rest of the...

pronounce itself when it comes to suggestions on how to deal with the many reports within the time limited and specifically times as stated out in the Constitution.Some also require legislation, probably, because the Constitution says after discussion and debate, Parliament shall take appropriate action. So in effect, it is...

Sen. Orengo) : Thank you, Madam Speaker. One of the amendments that are on the Floor of this House as mentioned by Sen. (Eng.) Hargura, it is that the National Assembly actually wants to take away our role. Madam Temporary Speaker, I wish to congratulate Sen. Farhiya and the Committee...

Parliament. It cannot become a law even if it has gone through the county and the National Assembly. We should review those laws because what is happening is that when we passed things to the National Assembly, including the matters that are now before them that they have annulled; we...

Thank you, Senator. I would like to give the next speakers just one minute each because of time. Sen. Cherargei, proceed.

Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I know Sen. Orengo has deeply canvassed on this matter. I would want to thank the Committee on Delegated Legislation and Sen, Farhiya for that elaborate presentation of the Committee work. As the Chairperson of the Committee on Justice, Legal...

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I rise to congratulate the Vice-Chairperson of Committee on Delegated Legislation. As Sen. Orengo said, this is a very important Committee. One would be able to facilitate some of the things that have been the peg mind, so to speak, with regard to legislation and...

Sen. (Eng.) Hargura Godana for Marsabit County, proceed.

Sen. Orengo) : Yes, the Senate Minority Leader. The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Orengo) : Madam Temporary Speaker, I am gladly listening to Senator for Kericho County. I want him to clarify if he wants to meet ‘baba’ or Arap Mibei? On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Yes, the Senate Minority Leader. The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Madam Temporary Speaker, I am gladly listening to Senator for Kericho County. I want him to clarify if he wants to meet ‘baba’ or Arap Mibei? November 28, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 30 (Laughter)

Madam Temporary Speaker, I have not defected and I do not intend to do so. However, ‘baba’ is an icon that we all admire and respect. Therefore, I will be more than glad to meet him. I met him a few days ago and I thought that he did not...

in orange uniform, shall prominently display their badges during working hours and shall be picked from a particular lot.They can also go to the length and spread them out to the county to ensure that there is no skewed appointment of officers like what has happened in many of our...

Go ahead.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I support this particular proposal. I request my colleagues to support it so that we can expedite it. I am sure that this is one particular law that will be of interest to all our 47 counties. This is because November 28, 2018 SENATE DEBATES...

they will effectively carry out their duties with respect and honour that is expected of them.With those many remarks, I beg to second.

Sen. Orengo) : Chairperson, can you withdraw and let us have what was not in the Report expunged? Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am in the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights and the Report that was given by the Chairperson was on behalf of that particular Committee. The...

Chairperson, can you withdraw and let us have what was not in the Report expunged?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as much as my memory serves me right, I have not alluded to anything that is not in the Report. People have been distracted and were discussing other issues animatedly. Therefore, they have not gotten my position. I did not allude to anything that is not within...

Sen. Orengo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a point of order.

What is it Senate Minority Leader? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hypothetically, suppose you said kukumanga, what exactly is it? I know that we have people from the Kamba community in this House and the pomegranate fruit is kukumanga in...

Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo) : Yes, but you must also take directives of the Chair. You cannot be heard that way. You are a very senior lawyer. Please, resume your seat. Sen. Orengo, you are not just a senior lawyer, but you are also a senior Member of this House by virtue...

Sen. Orengo) :and you have the discretion. In the meantime, Kenyans will see for themselves who was here and those who were not here in those 10 minutes.In fact, there have been instances where, when there are no numbers, we give a little time for people to come in and...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Order, Senators! The Senate Leader of Minority, would you want the bell to be rung for another five minutes? November 27, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 30

Sen. Orengo) : Order, Senators! I direct that the Bell be rung for another five minutes. (The Division Bell was rung) Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not said anything. I am just talking generally. Why this fear?

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:-

Yes, you will make it. The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) :Order, Senators. I now direct that the doors be opened and the bars withdrawn. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you must hear me out, you cannot hear me in---

Yes, but you must also take directives of the Chair. You cannot be heard that way. You are a very senior lawyer. Please, resume your seat. Sen. Orengo, you are not just a senior lawyer, but you are also a senior Member of this House by virtue of the office...

Order, Senate Leader of Majority! Your office also does not allow you to do what you are doing. You should be the last person to be called to order. (Laughter) November 27, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 31

and you have the discretion. In the meantime, Kenyans will see for themselves who was here and those who were not here in those 10 minutes.In fact, there have been instances where, when there are no numbers, we give a little time for people to come in and now I...

Thank you, the Senate Leader of Minority! The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move. I thought you knew. (Laughter)

Sen. Orengo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing me to contribute to this very important Bill. I also express my gratitude to Sen. Moi for bringing it to this House. Many countries have developed from locally generated resources. When we allow investors from outside this country to take...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :depend on what he will say eventually. However, if it is not the Committee on Health, then whoever is going to deal with it must give us a report that is worthy and responds to the questions which Sen. Dullo has raised because they are...

depend on what he will say eventually. However, if it is not the Committee on Health, then whoever is going to deal with it must give us a report that is worthy and responds to the questions which Sen. Dullo has raised because they are quite fundamental.I thank you, Mr....

Thank you, Senate Minority Leader. I will give three minutes to Sen. (Dr.) Mbito of Trans Nzoia County.

Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, let me congratulate Sen. Dullo for raising this important matter that touches on Universal Health Coverage (UHC) , one of the four pillars of the President. This is an issue that the Committee has engaged the Cabinet Secretary on. We have raised those issues and one...

Order! Order! Sen. Ayacko, I hope you are going to take tea. We are about to carry out a Division. I urge all Senators to remain in the Chamber but you can walk out briefly, if you must.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir---

Mr. Chairman, are you responding to the statement? What are you doing?

I am actually contributing to Sen. Dullo‘s point---

So, what are you saying?

I am actually requesting the House to assist the Committee---

Yes.

I am requesting the House to assist the Committee because legislative amendments are being done at the National Assembly---

You are unable to deal with the issue, Mr. Chairman, that is what you are telling the House.

I am unable to force the National Assembly to bring the amendments to us, because there is an allegation that they want to take it directly to the President for assent.

Sen. Orengo): Thank you Madam Temporary Speaker. I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate my good and learned friend, Sen. Ochillo-Ayacko, on his nomination to serve in these Committees. I have known him for many years. We were students together at the University of Nairobi and I succeeded...

I beg to second, Madam Temporary Speaker. An

Just put the question.

No. I cannot put the question because some Senators are interested in debating the Motion. Proceed, Sen. Omogeni.

Sen. Orengo) :Proceed, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wonder whether you will give us a little more time, for example, 10 minutes. Not for me, but for everybody else to at least acknowledge the presence such a large delegation from Malawi. If it was a small delegation, I would, probably,...

Proceed,

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :particular land that affected the life and interest or education of young people who were students in the particular schools involved. The public there is waiting to find out what we will do with this Report.The Report will also enable us, in this new dispensation...

particular land that affected the life and interest or education of young people who were students in the particular schools involved. The public there is waiting to find out what we will do with this Report.The Report will also enable us, in this new dispensation or new climate where we...

Sen. Orengo):I respectfully disagree with the Committee when it comes to such a conclusion despite the fact that they are saying that investigation must still go on. On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Are you willing to be informed by Sen. Orengo?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have not said anything that would make me expect adverse information. The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I could not help because we had a small issue about the Building Bridges Initiative. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we do not have numbers. Part of the reason is that we did not alert our Members that we would vote on the Motion....

What is your point of order, Senate Minority Leader? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) :(Loud consultations) Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you had proposed to the Mover whether the vote should go on or not. (Sen. Murkomen stood up in his place)

Order, Senate Majority Leader! Carry whatever transaction you are carrying in accordance with the Standing Orders. Proceed, Senate Minority Leader. (Sen. Cherargei consulted loudly) Order Sen. Cherargei! November 15, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 38

Hon. Senators, you have done very well. Do not spoil the afternoon. The Senate Minority Leader shall be heard.

Sen. Orengo): Sen. Orengo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, during the debate, it was quite obvious in the contributions of Members that there was a bi-partisan position being taken by both sides of the House.Secondly, this determination has been made towards the tail-end of the debate on this Motion. So, in...

Before the Senate Majority Leader says what he wants to say, the Chair is not engaged in helping either side to achieve any purpose. Therefore, Senate Minority Leader, your comment about non-partisanship is a political issue between you, your counterparts and the troops you lead in this House, which the...

We do not have numbers.

Senate Minority Whip, do we have numbers? (Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. spoke off record) November 15, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 39

Order! You are off record. You have just arrived, but you were part of the--- (Laughter)

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I could not help because we had a small issue about the Building Bridges Initiative. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we do not have numbers. Part of the reason is that we did not alert our Members that we would vote on the Motion.

On that point alone, which is the confirmation by the Whips of both sides that we do have threshold, I would not wish that this agenda collapses on a technicality of numbers. Therefore, accordingly, I direct that the Division on this matter be deferred to a later date as requested...

Sen. Orengo) : Very well. Sen. Mwaruma, have you made any specific request? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am in total agreement with the Senate Majority Leader that there is no rule that says that if you do not contribute to a debate, you cannot vote. In fact, we have...

Sen. Orengo) :Proceed, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wonder whether you will give us a little more time, for example, 10 minutes. Not for me, but for everybody else to at least acknowledge the presence such a large delegation from Malawi. If it was a small delegation, I would, probably,...

Proceed,

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :particular land that affected the life and interest or education of young people who were students in the particular schools involved. The public there is waiting to find out what we will do with this Report.The Report will also enable us, in this new dispensation...

particular land that affected the life and interest or education of young people who were students in the particular schools involved. The public there is waiting to find out what we will do with this Report.The Report will also enable us, in this new dispensation or new climate where we...

Sen. Orengo):I respectfully disagree with the Committee when it comes to such a conclusion despite the fact that they are saying that investigation must still go on. On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Are you willing to be informed by Sen. Orengo?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have not said anything that would make me expect adverse information. The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I could not help because we had a small issue about the Building Bridges Initiative. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we do not have numbers. Part of the reason is that we did not alert our Members that we would vote on the Motion....

What is your point of order, Senate Minority Leader? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) :(Loud consultations) Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you had proposed to the Mover whether the vote should go on or not. (Sen. Murkomen stood up in his place)

Order, Senate Majority Leader! Carry whatever transaction you are carrying in accordance with the Standing Orders. Proceed, Senate Minority Leader. (Sen. Cherargei consulted loudly) Order Sen. Cherargei! November 15, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 38

Hon. Senators, you have done very well. Do not spoil the afternoon. The Senate Minority Leader shall be heard.

Sen. Orengo): Sen. Orengo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, during the debate, it was quite obvious in the contributions of Members that there was a bi-partisan position being taken by both sides of the House.Secondly, this determination has been made towards the tail-end of the debate on this Motion. So, in...

Before the Senate Majority Leader says what he wants to say, the Chair is not engaged in helping either side to achieve any purpose. Therefore, Senate Minority Leader, your comment about non-partisanship is a political issue between you, your counterparts and the troops you lead in this House, which the...

We do not have numbers.

Senate Minority Whip, do we have numbers? (Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. spoke off record) November 15, 2018 SENATE DEBATES 39

Order! You are off record. You have just arrived, but you were part of the--- (Laughter)

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I could not help because we had a small issue about the Building Bridges Initiative. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we do not have numbers. Part of the reason is that we did not alert our Members that we would vote on the Motion.

On that point alone, which is the confirmation by the Whips of both sides that we do have threshold, I would not wish that this agenda collapses on a technicality of numbers. Therefore, accordingly, I direct that the Division on this matter be deferred to a later date as requested...

Sen. Orengo) : Very well. Sen. Mwaruma, have you made any specific request? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am in total agreement with the Senate Majority Leader that there is no rule that says that if you do not contribute to a debate, you cannot vote. In fact, we have...

Sen. Orengo) : What is your point of order the Senate Minority Leader? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was anticipating that there would be a Paper laid or rather, the Report of the Committee on Powers and Privileges on the issue of Ruaraka Land...

What is your point of order the Senate Minority Leader? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Let us proceed to the next Order.

Thank you, Senate Minority Leader. The Committee on Powers and Privileges met this afternoon and it adopted the Paper with some adjustments and I think that they are finalizing it. It should be tabled tomorrow by one of the Committee Members because the Speaker is the Chair. The Senate Minority...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo) :that children’s lives were cut off and their future snatched away because of things that we can prevent as a country. It has become normal and I agree with what colleagues have said.In this country, the average number of people who die annually from road accidents is 3,000....

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo I second, Madam Temporary Speaker. (Question proposed) Hon. Senators, I do not see a request to speak. I will now put the question that the House do agree with the Committee in the said Report. (Question put and agreed to)