James Orengo

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Murkomen, I would like to inform you of Standing Order No.96 on content of speeches. It states that: “Neither the personal conduct of the President, nor the conduct of the Speaker or of any judge, nor the judicial conduct of any other person...

Sen. Orengo) :(Laughter)(Laughter) December 4, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 37

Sometimes I wonder why in the very many years of this Parliament, we have not published a compendium of the rulings of the Speakers. There was a time when an issue arose in the “Lower House” and we were able to get published rulings of the Speaker of the Parliament...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :Mr. Speaker, Sir, the reason why Kenya went for devolution was not just sharing of political power. We are now talking a lot about sharing of political power and so on, but we do not hear so much about sharing of resources. In fact, in...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the reason why Kenya went for devolution was not just sharing of political power. We are now talking a lot about sharing of political power and so on, but we do not hear so much about sharing of resources. In fact, in that report, there is a...

Asante sana Bw. Spika kwa kunipa fursa ili niweze kuchangia kwa hii Statement ambayo imeletwa hapa na Sen. Mwaruma kutoka Kaunti ya Taita-Taveta. Kusema kweli, hata Kaunti yangu ya Kwale ina shida kama hiyo. Baada ya utalii, mapata mengine yanatokana na madini. Sisi tuna madini ambayo yanaitwa Titanium. Tangu Base...

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this Statement. It is important for us to have mechanisms for giving royalties to communities that are supposed to benefit from the mining industry. I looked at the background of this Statement and realized that...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Permission has been granted by Sen. Orengo. December 3, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 43

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Thank you, Sen. Orengo. Let us now have the Senate Majority Leader.

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : I will start with the direction. After that, I will give one or two comments before we proceed. The direction is as follows: That the Mover concludes the Moving of this Bill and then we proceed with the Bill, as far as we can,...

Only one? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Let us cause a discovery. What Sen. Wetangula is saying is that it should not be an isolated event. The time is now and we will support his position because it is the position of the House. With the concurrence...

Sen. Orengo) : Asante, Bi. Spika wa Muda kwa kunipa nafasi kutoa maoni yangu kuhusu janga ambalo lilitokea kaunti ya West Pokot. West Pokot ni sehemu ya Kenya ambayo imekumbwa na shida nyingi. Kwanza, ningependa kutoa rambirambi zangu za dhati kwa watu wa West Pokot. Vile vile, ningependa kutoa rambi...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :question. Therefore, there are some regions where, honestly, some questions should be answered by the responsible State agency.Having said that, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the request of this Statement is on matters which do not necessarily do with the global figures, as it were, for...

question. Therefore, there are some regions where, honestly, some questions should be answered by the responsible State agency.Having said that, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the request of this Statement is on matters which do not necessarily do with the global figures, as it were, for regions or counties. I think...

Proceed, Sen. Farhiya.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. For most pastoralists counties, figures were based on pre-census figures. The pre-census figures were based on villages’ settlement. Not all those people who are looking after camels and cows--- I am sure whether you know that pastoralists move from one place to another. If...

Proceed, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Okay, wind up. (Laughter)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am guided. Give me one minute, I finish.

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was just a reminder on the time set aside for Sen. Sakaja, Chairman of Labour Committee, to respond to my petition on dumping of street children by Nakuru County. (Laughter)

I think he has heard. Proceed, Sen. Kihika. November 13, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 16 THE ALLEGED TRANSFER/DUMPING OF STREET CHILDREN BY NAKURU COUNTY GOVERNMENT

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was just a reminder on the time set aside for Sen. Sakaja, Chairman of Labour Committee, to respond to my petition on dumping of street children by Nakuru County.

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :There are other instances where we have had difficulties playing against teams like Tanzania and Somalia. This is a national disgrace. It cannot be left to the cartels that run the FKF to deal with issues of football in this country any more. November 12,...

Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform and remind Sen. Orengo that former Speaker, hon. Ethuro, made three rulings on the issue of presidential memorandum. It is not possible for a presidential memorandum when it comes to Parliament, to be said it has been passed in...

Sen. Orengo) : Thank, you Mr. Speaker Sir. Sen. Cherargei, a young lawyer, has made us very proud this afternoon. The Statement he has brought to this House carries commitment, courage and hope that, indeed, we have, among our leadership, people who can stand up and say things as they...

Thank, you Mr. Speaker Sir. Sen. Cherargei, a young lawyer, has made us very proud this afternoon. The Statement he has brought to this House carries commitment, courage and hope that, indeed, we have, among our leadership, people who can stand up and say things as they are. They have...

Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to support this Statement. I thought that the new Constitution would give us new safeguards but I have seen a pattern where Parliament and the Judiciary are being bullied and the constitutional commissions have become toothless. Things...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :and Sen. Kihika) (Laughter)

Conclude, Sen. Wetangula. November 7, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 19

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : What is your point of order, Sen. Murkomen?

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Kang‟ata, take your seat. Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a Standing Order about relevance. What we are discussing is the Statement by the Chairperson of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights. What is there in the Statement that he disagrees with? Do not...

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am agreeing with this Statement to the extent that it is saying that the Executive did not use the correct procedure. (Sen. Cherargei stood up in his place)

Sen. Orengo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will allow an opportunity and a window for the national Treasury to sit with Parliament before publication in the Kenya Gazette. That Parliament includes the Senate. I am talking about the Senate of the Republic of Kenya where I am seated and where...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :unfortunate that despite the fact that we are signed on to keeping our borrowing at 50 per cent of net present value, already even as it stands today, we have passed that ceiling. The reason why the EAC has never successfully integrated is because of...

Sen. Orengo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we never told the Cabinet Secretary that we cannot allow him to open the ceiling. We only told him that we cannot open it to Kshs9 trillion, because it will be taking us to the equality of GDP and debt. In fact, the Committee...

Sen. Orengo) : They quickly transformed from Saul to Paul; lightning struck them and they changed their minds. I want to encourage the Senator for Baringo whom I am very impressed has sat in the Chamber the whole afternoon. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the distinguished Senator for Bungoma correct...

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the only reason Sen. Orengo stood on a point of order is because he heard me mention his name. He did not get the point. (Laughter)

Sen. Orengo): Sen. (Dr.) Kabaka, kindly approach the Chair. (Sen. (Dr.) Kabaka approached the Chair) Jambo la nidhamu, Bw. Naibu Spika,

What is it, Sen. Orengo? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Bw. Naibu Spika, umeelewa vile Sen. Omanga, aliyekuwa akiongea amesema ya kwamba wanashurutishwa. Pengine hakutumia neno hilo lakini yale aliyoyasema, inamaanisha kwamba wanashurutishwa kupiga kura na kuzungumza. Hili ni jambo ambalo lazima lirekebishwe kwa...

Sen. Omanga, please, wait. Sen. Orengo, I heard Sen. Omanga explaining what has transpired between her and her colleagues on their side of the House with their Leader of Majority. I told her that if she has any information suggesting that the Senate Majority Leader is breaking the Standing Orders...

Bw. Naibu Spika, nina huzuni sana kwamba mwezi uliyopita tumekuwa kwenye vuta nikuvute na Bunge la Kitaifa kwa sababu ya mgao wa pesa unaoenda kwenye kaunti. Tukikubalia Serikali uwezekano wa kuchukua madeni zaidi, mwaka unaokuja, tutapata pesa chache katika kaunti. Mwaka mwingine na mtondoo na mtondogoo pesa chache muno zitapelekwa...

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) :

Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Very well, mover. Vice-Chairperson, Sen. Farhiya it is time to reply. Order, Senate Majority Leader.

On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Would you like to be informed? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Very well. Proceed, Sen. Poghisio.

Sen. Orengo) : Order! Have you applied for deferral? Sen. Poghisio: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in saying all this, I want to confess that the Government has not behaved well in this regard; how they have borrowed and how they have used the money. Sometimes...

However, we need a law in place that measures up to what the Constitution desires. This is because Article 211(1) of the Constitution says:“Parliament may, by legislation- (Applause) November 5, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 58 (Applause) (Applause) November 5, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 59

Therefore, I beg this Senate to rise up to the occasion. It may sometimes appear unpopular, and if you want populist politics, they are there. There are so many populist politicians in Europe to the left and to the right, but populism for the sake of it has never helped....

At the end of the day, some people make more money when the country is in a lot of problems. When there is a war, there are war mongers. When the economy is not doing well, the black economy and the underworld do much better. Let us do things in...

What is it Sen. Cheruiyot?

Order, Sen. Cheruiyot! You are completely out of order! Conclude Sen. Orengo, I would advise that you conclude along the lines of your debate. The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Orengo) : Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you gave very good advice that when we come to this...

Very well. Sen. (Prof.) Ongeri, kindly proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to weigh in on a very important Motion before this House. I have listened very carefully to the proposals that have been put before this House from both sides of the divide. November 5, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 61

It has taken a crisis to bring this report before Senate. Before that period of time, Senate never figured anywhere in the final resolution of this report, particularly on money matters. Let me say it without any contradiction that the public debt, after the Grand Coalition stood at Kshs 1.8...

November 5, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 63

November 5, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 64

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for now, I want to plead with those protagonists who are saying ‘no’ to come with me, in the interest of this nation, and say ‘yes.’ I say ‘yes’ to this Motion, and I beg to support.

Thank you. Proceed, Sen. Farhiya.

November 5, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 65

Financial Year 2019/2020 is over Kshs3 trillion. If we can save Kshs1 trillion every year that is lost through corruption, we can actually offset our principal debt in the next six years.Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, why are people not looking at that opportunity? That is what I do not understand....

our ability later to use less fuel. You are also compensated some money for using green energy in terms of world pollution and all that. We would have also tapped that.The other issue is that the National Assembly passed a Budget with Kshs635 billion deficit. By passing that, they have...

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to make my contribution. I sat as the Member of the Committee on Delegated Legislation to consider this matter. If I heard the Acting Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Planning and his team well, the message from Hon. Ukur...

Very well, mover. Vice-Chairperson, Sen. Farhiya it is time to reply. Order, Senate Majority Leader. November 5, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 68

Order! You are not on record. (Sen. Poghisio walked into the Chamber)

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I notice that my Chairman is here. So, I will let him reply.

Very well. Proceed, Sen. Poghisio.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. This has been a good moment for Members of this Senate to speak up and ventilate on the issue of national debt. The Motion seeks to amend Regulation 26 (1) (c) of the Public Finance Management (National Government) Regulations, 2015 vide a...

Order! Have you applied for deferral?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

I direct that Division be conducted tomorrow, at 2.30p.m. This is a matter that requires voting by county delegations. (Putting of the question on the Motion deferred) ADJOURNMENT

Having concluded debate on Order No.8, as earlier resolved, it is now time to adjourn the House. The Senate, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 6th November, 2019, at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 7.10 p.m. November 5, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 69

Sen. Orengo): Bw. Spika, kuna swali ambalo najiuliza. Seneti imetoa uamuzi wake. Je, tunaelewa mgogoro ulioko kule Taita Taveta? Uamuzi wetu ni kuwa madai yaliyoletwa hayana msingi wowote. Ukweli ni kwamba kuna mgogoro katika Kaunti ya Taita Taveta. Licha ya kuwa tumesema kuwa madai yaliyotolewa hayana msingi wowote, tunafaa kuwaunganisha...

October 24, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 30

is really what Senators say. Even without any evidence, we may look unreasonable, but when you convict on an impeachment, it does not matter whether there was sufficient evidence. This is because we are not sitting as a court of law; it is partly a political process, so long as...

I can see there is a lot of interest. I will give five minutes each so that everybody has a chance to say something on this because this is an important debate we are having as a Senate.

Bw. Spika, kuna swali ambalo najiuliza. Seneti imetoa uamuzi wake. Je, tunaelewa mgogoro ulioko kule Taita Taveta? Uamuzi wetu ni kuwa madai yaliyoletwa hayana msingi wowote. Ukweli ni kwamba kuna mgogoro katika Kaunti ya Taita Taveta. Licha ya kuwa tumesema kuwa madai yaliyotolewa hayana msingi wowote, tunafaa kuwaunganisha watu wa...

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am sorry to interrupt Sen. Kinyua. In his contribution, there is something I have noted and I heard the same from Senate Majority and Senate Minority Leaders when they made their contributions. I have also seen the same in print and...

That is important information.

Bw. Spika, nakubaliana na Sen. Cheruiyot kwa sababu Ripoti yenyewe ina kurasa 76. Pengine tungevunja rekodi ya dunia kuisoma kwa dakika 15. Huenda hapo ndipo makosa yalitokea. Nakubaliana na Ripoti hii. Nimechangia yangu kuihusu.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will try to be brief and use the time provided. I thank the Committee that was set up by this House to deal with the issue of the impeachment of the Governor of Taita-Taveta County, His Excellency, Hon. Granton Samboja. I have read through this Report...

he has a right to do – to get injunctions that became unenforceable on the Senate, was totally unnecessary.This is a House of fairness, justice and reason. You can see that even when Governor Samboja did not appear before the Committee, the Committee did not wear blinkers of bias, and...

Proceed, Sen. (Eng.) Maina then we will have Sen. Mwaura.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First, I commend the Committee for the work they did in a very short time and came to some conclusion. When looking at this Report, we should be asking ourselves a few questions. What is the October 24, 2019 SENATE DEBATES 33