OUNDO, WILBERFORCE OJIAMBO

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I stand to support the Report by the Public Petitions Committee and the amendment by Hon. Atandi. Investments in real estate are expensive undertakings. As such, many investors look for innovative ways and look at the cocktail of investment options available to them. The case of...

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I stand to comment on these proposed amendments to the Statutory Instruments (Amendment) Act. I do so as a former member of the Committee under your chairmanship as well as that of Hon. Kamket. The Committee also had Sir George, Hon. Gichimu and a Member...

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. Indeed, if there is anything — let me echo the sentiment of the Leader of the Majority Party — that causes butterflies in our stomachs, it is the calls we receive from our constituents concerning medical bills. Any bill, policy...

On a point of order. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’) : Hon. Oundo, what is out of order? Hon. Temporary Speaker, I read the Bible but I do not know the exact verse: It is written that the greatest commandment in life is to love your neighbour more than...

Hon. Temporary Speaker, as we always say, prevention is better than cure. The role of community health promoters, who were initially known as community health workers or community health volunteers, cannot be over- emphasised. The role that they play in community sensitisation and education has been under- appreciated over the...

It is a small part. Which small part? A very small one, Hon. Speaker. (Laughter)

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I support the amendments moved by the Chairman because, in any case, it is a running commission and therefore, if you submit the report after six months, it would have been overtaken by events. I need to catch your attention. I hope that we have been consistent...

I agree with the Chairman of the Committee. We have complained unceasingly about this since the last term that, such a fundamental amendment to an Act of Parliament should not come through the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill. I sincerely thank the Committee for seeing the light and agreeing with...

I also find the amendments by the Departmental Committee on Education curious. They have no relationship at all with the provisions of the Constitution and the way things are. Even if the TSC submitted reports to both the National Assembly and the Senate, the report to the Senate would be...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, as they consult, they need to come out clearly. What is the importance of the amendment? Is it as Hon. Kaluma has put it? At times, you can give financial inducement, not knowing whether it constitutes a bribe or not. Or are we making it expressly clear...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I had raised that matter earlier. If we set the reporting time for independent commissions at six months, let it be the same across all commissions. Some commissions should not report after three months, while others do so after six months. I had raised that point much...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I totally agree with the Leader of the Majority Party because yesterday, there was a bit of confusion and I was part of the confusion because I think I had read the Bill in advance before it had been passed. I actually thought it was Huduma Day...

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I also join my colleagues in congratulating those Members who have painstakingly sat through to the end. I want it to go on record that the law-making process takes place in the Committee of the whole House. When the Finance Bill 2023 was being debated,...

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker. What is your point of order? Are you on a point of order? Yes. What is your point of order, Hon. Oundo? The Bill that is before us is very important and fundamental to human and animal life and the general welfare...

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 3 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) — Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 5 and substituting therefore the following new clause—

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 8 of the Bill be amended — Hon. Temporary Chairlady, allow me to mention the issue of the community land. Looking at the Community Land Act, it creates three ownership styles. It states that the community land committee will give land...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, clause 12 of the Bill be amended — 5th October 2023 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY DEBATES 37 Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, clause 14 of the Bill be amended —

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 19 of the Bill be amended by deleting paragraph (d) and substituting therefor the following new paragraph— No.6 of 2021 No.5 of 1996 ‘ (d) auction the rateable property at the market value in a manner that complies with Sections 96...

Give me one minute, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : I will give you one minute. Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I think Hon. Chepkonga has not read the Land Act. Sections 96 and 97 of the Land Act say there is a price which you can...

In view of the Committee’s amendment that has just been passed, my amendment to Clause 21 is no longer necessary. (Proposed amendment to Clause 21 by Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo withdrawn) (Clause 21 as amended agreed to) Clause 22 The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : We have an...

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, the valuation for rating is what we call central valuation and is a professional practice. So, my amendment to Clause 23 seeks to put very clear procedures and how it goes to the end; who sets the practice slots? How is it regulated? That is all I...

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 23 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new sub- clauses immediately after subclause (2) —

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, my amendment is largely addressed by the Committee’s amendments. So, I drop my amendments to Clause 25. (Proposed further amendment to Clause 25 by Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo withdrawn) (Clause 25 as amended agreed to) (Clause 26 agreed to) Clause 27 The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Rachael Nyamai)...

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I want to inform the general public that leaving the clause as it is will mean that the only instances that rating will be excluded are as per those amendments as carried by the majority: freehold agricultural land. So, if in your village you own leasehold titles...

Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move: THAT, clause 29 of the Bill be amended by —

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, this is just a follow-up to the amendments I had made in Clause 25. In view that Clause 25 was not carried, there is no need to prosecute amendment on Clause 30 because it was a consequential amendment to Clause 25. Even though it contains fair and...

In view of the loss of the amendment on Clause 25, there is no need of carrying Clause 30. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : That is clear. (Proposed amendment by Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo withdrawn) (Clause 30 agreed to) Clause 31 The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael...

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 32 of the Bill be amended in subclause (4) by deleting the expression “Chief Government Valuer” and substituting therefor the expression “National Land Commission”. Under Article 67 (2) (g) of the Constitution of Kenya, the power and mandate to assess taxes...

Hon. Temporary Chair, just in the same vein as the Chair of the Committee has indicated, there are a few amendments I proposed. I want to drop most of them, save for two. The one in reference to property and the other under Just for clarity, Hon. Oundo, have you...

Thank you. Indeed, we have concluded the Committee of the whole House. He needs to go on record. I will raise the matter at an appropriate time. Standing Orders say constitutional matters can be raised at any time before the conclusion of a Bill. I do not know exactly where...

I also wanted to follow up on the same NHIF issue. Does the NHIF cover matters related to treatment of infertility in both men and women?

On a point of order. What is your point of order Hon. Oundo? Yes, we agree we have made rules and the rules must be respected at all costs and time, but I have sat here the whole afternoon because of this particular Question. We, the people of Samia in...

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I also thank my colleague, Hon. Gikaria, for bringing this Bill here. We should never discourage a colleague from presenting Private Member’s Bills because this is one of our roles under Article 95 of the Constitution. Once you present a...

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I am one of the people who are always very uncomfortable with the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill because that is where the devil finds its way and where they hide most of the things. For once, this Bill deals mostly with routine issues of...

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I do not know why the Member of Parliament for Tharaka has been involved. I mentioned Sir George. According to the records in Parliament, there is no Member of Parliament called Sir George. I may not respond now. (Laughter)

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I have understood. We can re-look at this issue. As my colleagues have said, the problem may not lie in the Court of Appeal. It lies in sorting out investigation, application of the law, professionalism, and fidelity to the rule of law. We do not need...

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I request my colleague to look at the Memorandum of Objects and Reasons of the Bill in question. It shows all the principal Acts being amended. The moving notes by the Leader of the Majority Party are not the Bill. The Bill...

Hon. Speaker, I have listened to the Statement by the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party and I just want to raise a point of concern. I drafted a Question and submitted it. Hon. Deputy Leader of the Majority Party, I hope you are listening. I drafted a Question for...

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. With the admission by the Chair of the Committee that some of the proposed amendments by the Committee had not been carried, we beg to ask the question: What is the power or authority of the Chair of the Committee? Does he have the power...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, we probably need to make further amendments because the principal administrator of this Act is the Authority. How do you receive and address complaints against yourself? You are a prosecutor, judge and investigator in one entity. That is why we raised it yesterday, but time was not...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I stand to oppose that amendment. It might be done in abundance of caution because of the history of losing public funds. However, the social health fund we are discussing here is based on the principle of insurance. Many contributors pay, and only a few benefit from...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I want to draw the attention of the Chairman of the Committee to the contradiction we have in these amendments. We have deleted the provision of investing extra funds, yet when you go to the amendments he has proposed under Clause 14 (c) , adding sub-clause 6,...

Hon. Temporary Chairman. It is a good precedent that we can move amendments as we move along. This is a good precedent, and I thank you for that ruling. However, the long-term import of these deletions is the return of the insurance cartels in the health insurance sector. The drafters...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am just curious to know. This is because it is a requirement to get Government services; you must be a registered member of the Social Health Insurance Fund. How practical is it to implement because, for example, if you arrest me in a changáa den, will...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I support the amendment as moved by the Committee Chairman and hopefully there could be a further amendment. It is far much better than the demon in the Bill. The word “may” will remain “may” and we hope there is nowhere it will be taken to mean...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I would request the Committee to re-look at this matter a fresh from another angle. Many a times, Government bodies delay to pay because the disbursement from the National Treasury has delayed. How do we remedy such a situation? Can the Hon. Chairman, through the Committee, tell...

The advocates in the House and the Chair need to look at subclause 3. For those who have not seen nor heard, it says “all criminal and civil proceedings under this Act without prejudice to any other power in that behalf, be instituted by any authorised officer of the Authority.”...

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker. There are too many points of order. What is your point of order, Prof. Oundo? My point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker, is that what is being debated here is the Bill; not the Committee Report. We need to take time to...

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I thought I had lost my eyes. I was not seeing the microphone working. At the outset, let us make it very clear to the nation that medical attention is a very critical human right and we cannot afford to deal with it in a...

Hon. Temporary Speaker, it is in order to look at past experiences and make amendments to the financing model and even change the law. The Bill with us here, the Social Health Insurance Bill, is probably merely an upgrade of the current NHIF Act. It is just a mere way...

Yes. I am a land economist. I have trained a majority of the land economists you see here. Because of my training, probably, I know a bit of law. Since I am also a Kenyan, the law affects me and so I know it. Hon. Temporary Speaker, allow me to...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 19 of the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am looking at Hon. DK (David Kiplagat) to see if he is carrying a paper, which is very dishonourable of him. Anyway, he is my friend. Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 24 of the Bill be amended — (1) The Institute shall—...

Chair, it is good for you to indicate whether you are supporting the amendment or not. We will not beat you up.

With tremendous respect to Dr .Mutunga because he is a scholar as I am, he is not being truthful to the House and the nation. We have changed the heading of the institute to establishment of the Kenya Sugar Research and Training Institute. The amendments they have moved under (a)...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, whatever the Committee has proposed is more or less in order. It is just a matter of semantics. Generally, the cleaner way to look at it is to look at sugarcane and sugar producing crops. They refer to sugar crops, which can still pass but there is...

If we are listening to the Chairperson, he is clearly saying that the Committee might have overlooked expansion of the definition, which is common. He is saying it is possible to make further amendments to paragraph (l) and include an expanded version of the definition. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I plead with my colleagues on the other side, especially Hon. DK. This is not a contest between Kenya Kwanza and Azimio Coalition. It is about the sugarcane farmers. Please, let us listen to each other. Do not shout at each other. Let us not spend all...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I see Hon. Nyikal is turning his head because he has been told to do this and that. It does not matter. You will go on record. Whatever happens, he will be on record. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’) : Let him be. Hon. Temporary Chairman,...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the heading of Part V of the Bill be amended by deleting the words “APPOINTMENT OF CROP INSPECTORS” and substituting therefor the words APPOINTMENT OF SUGAR INDUSTRY INSPECTORS.” 26th September 2023 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY DEBATES 74 (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 29 and substituting therefor the following new clause. Appointment of Inspectors “29. (1) The Board shall appoint qualified sugar industry inspectors for purposes of undertaking its functions under this Act or any other written law.”

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, clause 40 of the Bill be amended in sub clause 2 by deleting paragraph

We have already agreed on the text. I drop my amendment because it is already covered. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’) : Thank you. (Proposed amendment by Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo on Clause 41 withdrawn) (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, there is already a precedent in this country. Election petitions, constitutional petitions and petitions on presidential elections have very clear timelines. People can drag cases. As they drag them, the farmers suffer most. Hon. Chair and Committee Members, we plead with you. Please. The Temporary Chairman (Hon....

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I appreciate. That is okay. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’) : Thank you. Clause 55 The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’) : Hon. Chairman.

I just want to indulge the Chairperson in the spirit of the expanded definition of the term “sugarcane and sugar-producing crop”. Amendment b (ii) proposes the insertion of a new paragraph (k) which talks about: “the seizure by an inspector of books, documents and sugarcane which, in the opinion of...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I want to urge Dr Nyikal on his delegated authority given to him by Hon. Shakeel to drop that amendment because we passed the Privatisation Bill the other day. I think it is a more comprehensive and substantive Act dealing with leasing, privatisation and the rest. We...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I want my colleagues from the sugarcane growing areas, especially in western and Nyanza to pay very particular attention to these amendments. They look good and workable on paper because they protect commercial interests... (Several Members spoke off the record) Coast and Rift Valley are also sugarcane...

Sugarcane farmers. The import is that once your register, you enter into a sugar supply or purchase agreement. You cannot break or breach it. If you do so, there are penalties. Does this, in any way, introduce zoning through the back door? From my understanding, nothing stops you if you...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that New Clause22A be now read a Second Time. The gist of this proposal or amendment is the concept of traceability that we should be able to trace the sugar from the factory to the end retailer. If in the event a scrupulous...

It is just a basic principle of drafting that normally such clauses as Clause 4 says that the functions of the board or the authority will go further to break down and give it teeth. Standards is standard by either KEBs, but it is the question of traceability. Many of...

I totally support the Committee. We must make provisions for general penalties in any Bill in the event they are not expressly prescribed. I support the amendment. (Question, that the new clause be read a Second Time, put and agreed to) (Question, that the new clause be added to the...

On Part 3 of the Third Schedule, that particular provision which you are moving to the main body of the Bill, probably we need guidance. Do we, at this moment, move a further amendment to delete Part 3? 26th September 2023 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY DEBATES 102 The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new definition in proper alphabetical sequence— “retailer” means any person licensed to carry out retail business in Kenya and includes a supermarket, departmental store, retail shop, wholesale shop, distribution agency or...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, given time in life and the life of this country, we must look progressively, entrench democracy and entrench the right of the people to make decisions for themselves. The farmers have been crying and I want to implore again with my colleagues that nothing is lost if...

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman, allow me to check. I thought it was passed. I beg to move: THAT, Clause 6 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new sub clause immediately after sub clause (3) — “ (4) A person shall not be elected to represent growers...

Hon. Temporary Chairman, allow me to drop my amendments to Clause 14. (Proposed amendment by Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo on Clause 14 dropped) The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’) : Thank you. (Clause 14 as amended agreed to) Clause 34 26th September 2023 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY DEBATES 118 The Temporary Chairman...

I second, Hon. Temporary Speaker. (Question proposed) (Question put and agreed to) ADJOURNMENT

Hon. Deputy Speaker, the Statement read by the Leader of the Majority Party evokes sad memories for those who live on the border between Uganda and Kenya. We are constrained by the Standing Orders and the law not to discuss the behaviour of a foreign or friendly country adversely. Still,...

Hon. Temporary Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity. I was going to complain bitterly because my card has always been on top all the time, and obviously by an act of God or deliberate mechanisation, I was always being skipped. 24th August 2023 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY DEBATES 39 Let...