Wednesday, 8th October 2025

(The Quorum Bell was rung)

Serjeant-at-arms, ring the Quorum Bell for 10 minutes. Hon. Millie, help us whip more Members since you have your important Bill on the Order Paper. Hon. Salasya, I make you a temporary Whip. Whip the Members for us. Hon. Salasya, I have given you the position of Whip. Go to the Lounge and whip Members.

Serjeant-at-Arms, ring the Quorum Bell for another 5 minutes.

Hon. Members, I think we are ready to proceed.

Hon. Kimaiyo, if you can come in, we can begin.

Hon. Members, we had a request for a statement to be read by Hon. Naomi Waqo. She is not present, so we will hold that in abeyance as we wait for her. Then there is one by Hon. Umul Kheir Kassim.

Hon. Umur Kassim, are you ready with your statement?

Yes, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Please, proceed.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I rise to request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation regarding the absence of communication network in Lulis Location, Banissa Sub-County, Mandera County.

Lulis Location comprises several major settlements including Andarak, Hardawa, Domal, Awaliatani, Ardamachi, Soroba, Kabil, Bughe, Ogonicho and Shobtoy. According to the 2019 National Census, this area is home to more than 50,000 residents and also hosts over 10 primary schools, two secondary schools and more than three dispensaries serving the local population. In today’s digital era, access to reliable communication services is a fundamental necessity that underpins security, governance, education, commerce and social cohesion. The absence of mobile network coverage in the area has had far-reaching negative implications on education, healthcare, emergency response, security coordination and socio-economic development.

The continued exclusion of Lulis Location from network coverage has subjected residents to marginalisation and digital exclusion, thereby negating the principles of equity, inclusivity and the right to information. It is also deeply concerning that despite Government investment in the Universal Service Fund and Information and Communication Technology (ICT) expansion programmes in various parts of the country, this region remains unconnected.

It is against this background that I seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation on the following:

Is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation present? Is there a Member who can give an undertaking on behalf of the Committee? Is there a Member of that Committee present? On behalf of the Leader of the Majority Party, Hon. Waqo, please respond to this.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. We will make sure that the Chairman gives the response in two weeks’ time.

Thank you.

Let us have Hon. Naomi Waqo, Member for Marsabit County.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I rise to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Security regarding the disappearance of Mr Galgallo Bagaja Malicha, ID No.44041644. To date, there are many others, especially Guyo Jilo, who has disappeared for some days now.

Mr Galgallo Bagaja Malicha, ID No.44041644, a resident of Golole in Sololo Sub- County, Marsabit County, was reported missing on 31st August 2025 and has been missing

since then. Despite widespread efforts by his family and community to trace him, Mr Galgallo’s whereabouts remain unknown. The incident was officially reported at Sololo Police Station on 3rd September 2025 under Occurrence Book (OB) No.63/9/25. However, as of today, there has been little progress in the investigation. Mr Galgallo’s family and the wider community are growing increasingly anxious about his safe return.

Since his disappearance three weeks ago, the family is yet to receive any official updates or information from security agencies regarding the circumstances of his disappearance or his current whereabouts. Additionally, this incident highlights serious concerns about the protection of fundamental rights, specifically as enshrined in Article 29 of the Constitution. It is against this background that I seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental

Thank you. That is directed to the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Security. Is the Chairperson or any Member here?

Hon. Ngusya are you a Member? How come you are on your feet?

There being no Member present, Hon. Waqo, please respond.

Thank you Hon. Deputy Speaker, we will take note of that, and within the next two weeks, we should be given the response.

Thank you.

Now, we move to the statements that were supposed to be responded to. Hon. Harun, nominated Member of Parliament. She is not here? Because the owner of the Statement is not here, we will pass it and move on. The next one is a response to a Request for a Statement by Hon. Nabuin, Member of Parliament for Turkana North. He is also not here.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I just want to go on record that I have the responses for the request for statements by Hon. Ekwom Nabuin and Hon. Suleka Harun but both of them are not in the House.

An hon. Member : He is here.

Sorry, I did not notice the Member for Turkana North is in.

The Member for Turkana North is here.So, proceed with his response.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

What is your point of order, Hon. Makali?

Thank you very much, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Indulge me on this matter which I think is very serious. It is now Questions and Statement time, and we see that Hon. Waqo is taking care of all the Chairpersons. I do not know whether people are tired or what is happening. I expect this House to be full with Chairpersons of Committees to respond to issues raised by Members. It looks like the Deputy Whip of the Majority Party is the one who is taking all the heat. That is unfair to Members.

Being the head of this House, Hon. Deputy Speaker, you really need to put our House in order. It does not look very good to the public that Members are asking important questions, which touch on public interest, but we do not get answers. This applies to both sides. I thank you Hon. MilIie and Hon. Waqo for being here. If they would not have been here, I would have wondered what was happening. At that high level, we need to discuss this matter because it is of concern.

Thank you.

Thank you. We will take it up with the Liaison Committee; the Committee of Chairpersons. Hon. Millie, you may now proceed to give the response.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I think the challenge is with the Chairpersons. Members are in the House. Many of them have come in and some are at the tea places.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I want to respond to a Request for a Statement by Hon. Ekwom Nabuin, Member of Parliament for Turkana North Constituency on the Todonyang massacre.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, further to the earlier response tabled before the House regarding the Statement sought by the Member for Turkana North Constituency, Hon. Ekwom Nabuin on Todonyang massacre, the Committee sought additional information from the Ministry of Foreign and Diaspora Affairs in relation to the incident, and Kenya's engagement with the Government of Ethiopia.

The Committee specifically organised a meeting in which the Member and the Cabinet Secretary for Defence appeared and deliberated on the matter and reached an amicable way forward.

Further, the committee sought clarification from the Cabinet Secretary for Foreign and Diaspora Affairs on the following:

Thank you. Members, our next order was order No.8 but I will exercise my discretion under Standing Order No. 40 to reorder the Order Paper as we cannot put the question on Order No.8. We shall move to Order No.9.

Hon. Nabuin, Member for Turkana North, I am told you want to comment before we move to the next order.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I was expecting to be given a chance to make a comment on this…

Usually, you have to make a request. You have not logged in your card. I thought you were satisfied.

Sorry, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I am satisfied with the engagement of the Committee and their response. I also want to confirm that in the last two weeks, together with the special envoy, Hon. John Munyes, we engaged the Ethiopian authorities at a higher level in Addis Ababa and at the regional level and so, the happenings now are good. Both communities across the border are engaging. There are peace committees that have already been formed.

In a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary, the Permanent Secretary and the team from KDF, we agreed that the Luwan KDF Camp be set up immediately. We should have a Liaison Officer across the border. That is what we are missing. Once we have a Liaison Officer from KDF, we will engage with the Ethiopian Army. A lot of activities are happening there. Our people are harassed. We feel that if we have a Liaison Officer, he will support the course by engaging with the team from the other side.

Thank you.

Is there any other comment on that response. If there is none, we can move to the next Order.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I have an amendment. I beg to move:

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 5 and substituting therefor the following new clause 5—

Assisted Reproductive Technology Committee.

shall conduct its business and affairs in accordance

The justification is to make provision for the Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentists Council (KMPDC) to establish a committee to be known as: “Assisted Reproductive Technology Committee.” This will be responsible for the functions relating to the provisions of assisted reproductive technology services in the country.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. (Dr) Nyikal, I suggest that if the amendments are too long you can just say; “as it appears in the Order Paper” so that we make progress.

Members I believe that you have the Order Paper to make it easier for the Chair. (Question of the amendment proposed)

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. My preference was more of a directorate. However, as part of harmonisation, I was willing to let go. I support the amendment towards the KMPDC and a Committee of the KMPDC that was proposed by Hon. Kaluma.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you, Hon. Millie. Hon. Naomi Waqo. Do you have interest in this?

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: We have another amendment by Hon. Peter Kaluma.

Hon. Millie, do you have comment? Hon. Kaluma is not in the House.

This is just to inform the House that Hon. Kaluma is not in. However, we had agreed on most of the amendments as part of the harmonisation process. There may be about three that we did not agree on and the Chair will alert the House about them. Hon. Kaluma is not in and it is just fair that I alert the House.

On this amendment, the Committee proposal carries the day. In fact, the council was proposed by Hon. Kaluma. Actually, it is his amendment that has carried the day.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman, would you like to add something?

Yes, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The issue here was that the Bill was creating a directorate but it was agreed that that would be creating a whole new structure. We agreed that we should have a council within the KMPDC. A lot of other amendments will be relating to that. We agreed we have a council instead of a directorate. Therefore, the amendment is just aligning with that.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: The proposed amendment by Hon. Kaluma is dropped.

(Clause 5 as amended agreed to) Clause 6

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Chairman, Hon. (Dr) Nyikal.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move: THAT, Clause 6 of the Bill be amended in—

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, in light of what I had said earlier, I support.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Thank you. I do not see any other interest in this.

Clause 7

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman has an amendment.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 7 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words “National Government” and substituting therefor the words “Cabinet Secretary”. Basically, we are deleting the words “National Government” and replacing them with the words “Cabinet Secretary” to be more specific. It is the most specific terminology.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. Before we put the Question, I need directions because I want to propose a further amendment on the Floor of the House. We harmonised the amendments, but I noticed there was a problem in Clause 7 (c) of the Bill. It talks about National Health Insurance Fund (NHIF) which does not exist anymore. I want to propose a further amendment to replace it with Social Health Authority (SHA) or Social Health Insurance Fund (SHIF) . I do not know whether we will dispose of Hon. Nyikal’s amendment because I am allowed to move an amendment on the Floor of the House and then I write it. I had done this in the past.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : I would like to establish whether the amendment that you are proposing now is related to the amendment that has been prosecuted by Hon (Dr) Nyikal.

The amendment is in the same clause, but it is not related to Hon. Nyikal’s amendment. His amendment is in the main part of Clause 7 of the Bill. He proposes to delete the words “National Government” and substitute them with the word “Cabinet Secretary”. I am talking about Clause 7 (c) of the Bill. I seek direction on whether we dispose of his amendment first and then I propose a further amendment to Clause 7 (c) of the Bill to replace the words “NHIF” or we recommit the Clause. Advise me on which one is easier. Do we recommit the Clause or I propose amendments on the Floor of the House? It is a very simple amendment because NHIF does not exist anymore.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : This seems to be part of cleaning up. Yes, Hon. Raso.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. According to what Hon. Millie is proposing, this is a House of traditions. If you wish to move an amendment on the Floor of the House, you should have a discussion with the Chairperson of the Committee so that you agree before moving that amendment on the Floor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : First of all, Hon. Millie is raising an important matter. I believe that there were a lot of consultations on this Bill so, it is not a problem at all. Our Standing Order 152 (3) specifically gives the Speaker authority. It says:

At any time before the certification of the Bill, the Speaker may correct formal errors or oversights therein without changing the substance of the Bill and thereafter submit the Bill to the President for assent. This matter can be handled at that stage where NHIF will be replaced with SHIF. Members, I suggest that we make progress. It will be handled during cleaning up where NHIF will be replaced with SHIF. That is clear. We can proceed.

You may proceed, Hon. Chairman.

I would like to add a word when that cleaning is being done. An issue has come up on whether we are talking about SHA or SHIF which makes a big difference. If you talk about SHIF, you are only talking about one fund. If you talk about SHA, you should realise we are talking about the other two Funds which are the Emergency, Chronic and Critical Illness Fund and Primary Healthcare Fund. This is very important because in the cover for some disease, you may need to use any of the three Funds. Whoever will clean up the Bill needs to be very careful.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : In that case, Hon. Chairman, I would like to give an opportunity to Hon. Millie to move the amendment. We will give you two minutes or a minute to consult, so that we do not have confusion with the different funds.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, can I then propose that Hon. Nyikal’s amendment is passed and then I move my amendment in Clause 7 (c) of the Bill? I do not know whether we have already passed Hon. Nyikal’s amendment.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Get ready. It will be a further amendment to this one.

I will now give an opportunity to Hon. Millie to move further amendment.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, Clause 7 of the Bill be further amended in sub-clause

(c)

by deleting the words “National Health Insurance Fund

(NHIF)

and substituting therefor the words “Social Health Authority

(SHA)

”. I have been advised by Hon. (Dr) Nyikal. The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: This is noted.

We also have an amendment by Hon. Kaluma in Clause 7 of the Bill which is hereby dropped.

Clause 8

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : I would like to start with the proposed amendment by Hon. Kaluma. He proposes a deletion, but there is no one to prosecute it. It is hereby dropped.

There is another amendment by Hon. Chairman; please proceed.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 8 of the Bill be amended by—

Hon. Chairlady, if you allow, I may want to consult with Hon. Millie on what you have just said then we proceed. It is just for a minute or two, regarding dropping all of Hon. Kaluma’s amendments.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Is it going beyond Clause 8?

That is what I want to consult about so that we are quite clear they are all dropped as we move forward. I will tell you my concern. If we are dropping amendments of an absent Member, we do not know how he will behave toward the whole Bill and even the resulting Act when it is passed. That is why I want this consultation.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Whom do you want to consult?

Hon. Millie. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Okay. Can we give you a minute to do that?

Hon. Millie, you may proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Hon. Nyikal is worried about something over which he wants to go on record because we agreed 90 per cent during the harmonisation process. We did not agree on about three clauses that Hon. Kaluma wanted to prosecute himself. He is not here. Out of goodwill, because I know we are not obligated to take that into account, we agreed that we could request recommittal of the clauses.

Therefore, Hon. Nyikal is worried whether dropped clauses can be subjected to recommittal.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Well. Hon. Millie Odhiambo and the Chair, are you to identify the three clauses? I can give opportunity to the Chair when it comes to the specific amendments given the fact that Hon. Kaluma has not given you any document in writing indicating that you could move them on his behalf. For those you have agreed on, you can move the amendment then move in an amended form to take care of Hon. Kaluma’s amendments. Hon. Millie?

I think we are just being magnanimous. The Committee and I do not agree with Hon. Kaluma on the amendments. He wanted to prosecute his disagreement and we have graciously agreed to allow him to prosecute

them even though we disagree with him. If we were to move his amendments now, it would imply that we support them. We do not. The Committee does not support neither do I.

However, we wanted to be gracious enough to allow him to move his opposition. We have had a gentleman-gentlelady agreement, to recommit them so that he can come and persuade Members on the three items. Would it be okay if we just moved all of them and notify the House when we come to those three so that he is allowed to recommit them later?

(The Temporary Chairlady consulted the Clerks-at-the-Table) The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): As you do so, bear in mind that the Bill now belongs to the House. It does not belong to Hon. Kaluma.

You may proceed, Hon. (Dr) Nyikal.

That is exactly why we urge you to consider this request. We went through a very rigorous winnowing almost twice. I have the list of all the clauses we could not agree on. We allowed him to prosecute them on the Floor of the House.

My concern is that he may later on raise issues of process and that he was away. We know that the Acts we have passed have been challenged on process. If we do not finish today and the Member returns next week, is he procedurally allowed to recommit his clauses dropped in his absence? Clarifying this now would allow us to proceed knowing that we offered every possible opportunity, even to the very last minute.

I say this because, despite knowing the law, I anticipate that implementation will still raise challenges. I want Hon. Kaluma to have a maximum chance to speak, present his case, and have the matter settled right here on the Floor. This will prevent him from later on stating that he was not given a chance. Our request is about process and procedure.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Members, recommitting these Bills will be opening these particular clauses to fresh deliberations. So, I advise that, based on Standing Order 133 (10) , which says “consideration of any part of a clause of a Bill may be postponed until such later stage of the proceedings into Committee on such Bill as the Committee may determine”, you may identify the three clauses so that we deal with all the other clauses and leave those particular clauses to be handled at a later time. So, let us proceed. Please give him the microphone.

In line with what you have said, I have listed all the clauses where we have this, and I would like to present them to you so that when you reach them...

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: We need to make progress, Hon. Members.

It is one of them. Therefore, we will save all of them as we move on.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Please, enumerate all of them.

They are Clauses 8, 14, 27, 30 (f) , 38 and 52. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Therefore, there is no Clause

Actually, they include Clauses 18, 30 and 52.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): You have added eighteen.

No. Clauses 14, 27, 30 and 52 The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : So, Clause 8 is not there?

No. We have already passed Clause 7. That is gone. I do not want to take the House back. Therefore, they include Clauses 8, 14, 27, 30 and

I think there may be another part of Clause

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 9. The justification is for the alignment with the proposed amendment that the assisted reproductive technology be established under Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentists Council. As I said earlier, whenever the word ‘directorate’ appears, it will be amended to read ‘council’ or be deleted as appropriate.

(Technical Hitch)

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Hon. Andrew Okuome, Member for Karachuonyo. Please, use the next microphone. Are you trying to fix the microphone?

Yes, it is stuck and I am trying to get it out.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Just use the microphone next to you. It is on.

Okay. Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I am sorry, I did not ask to be given a chance to comment.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : That is noted, Hon. Okuome. I will proceed to put the question.

Clause 10

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 10. The reason is the same as that in Clause 9 on the change from ‘directorate’ to ‘council’.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Hon. Joshua Kimilu, Member for Kaiti.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support the amendment.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

Clause 12

THAT, Clause 12 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by deleting the words “written consent, in accordance with the prescribed Regulations, to its use for that purpose” and substituting therefor the words “written informed consent”. The justification for this is to add the word ‘informed’ between the words ‘written consent’. That is for more accuracy that the consent should be written, not verbal.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. This is one of the clauses that we agreed on. Currently, this area is not regulated. This basically means that no person shall make use of any human reproductive material for purposes of creating an embryo unless the donor of the material has given written informed consent. This is to regulate the sector so that it is not misused because it is a very delicate area.

I support. The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

Clause 13

THAT, Clause 13 of the Bill be amended in—

The justification is the same reason given under Clause 12. We need ‘informed consent’ in all these clauses. We would like the ‘informed consent’ to be in writing.

(Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support the amendment, except that this amendment talks to the removal of a human reproductive material from a body of a donor after their death. That cannot happen unless the person gave informed written consent. Organ donation has to be done with written informed consent.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Members, before we proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome our guests. Seated in the Speaker’s Gallery are students of Elim Group of Schools from Mavoko Constituency, Machakos County. In the Public Gallery, we have students of Nthongoni Glorious Hope Academy from Kaiti Constituency, Makueni County. You are welcome to observe the proceedings of the House.

I would like to give this opportunity to the Member for Kaiti, Hon. Joshua Kimilu, to welcome all the students.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I take this opportunity to welcome the students to Parliament. I would like to tell them that we were also once seated where they are seated now, following the proceedings of Parliament, and today we are here as Members of Parliament. I encourage them to focus and one day they will also be here as Members or in other fields doing good jobs.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Thank you very much, Member for Kaiti. Hon. Members, we agreed to defer consideration of Clause 14. Therefore, we will proceed to Clause 15. Clause 15

THAT, Clause 15 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause

(1)

by deleting the word “purely” appearing in paragraph

(c)

. This is just for wording purposes. Initially, Clause 15 indicated that “A person shall not undertake assisted reproductive technology for purely speculative and commercial purposes.” The word ‘purely’ is superfluous. It should just read: “…for speculative and commercial purposes”. We are deleting the word ‘purely’.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: I can see three Members on my screen, including Hon. Joshua and the Member for Karachuonyo. Member for Karachuonyo, you told me that you did not have interest in speaking to the earlier clause. Do you have interest in speaking to this one?

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I have interest in other clauses, not this one.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : On that note, Hon. Members, I request those who have interest in this particular Bill to press the intervention button. It will be easier for me to identify you.

Clause 16

THAT, Clause 16 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause

(1)

by inserting the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph

(b)

— “

(c)

a gamete or embryo other than that consented to by the woman;” The justification for this is what Clause 15 states – ‘You shall not, for the purposes of technology, place into a woman an embryo other than a human embryo, or a gamete other than a human gamete.’ However, this one says ‘a gamete or embryo other than that consented to by the woman.’ This is a complex area, and we want to ensure that whatever is used, the woman has given consent to it. That is the essence of the amendment on Clause 16.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. Let me also take this opportunity to welcome the students who are here, and especially to encourage the young girls. I know the Hon. Member was saying earlier that he sat there at one time and looked down, and now he is in Parliament. When I came in and sat there many years ago, there were no women in this House. At least now we can see women. There were, I think, one or two women. Now we see women, and we hope that by the time they are here, more than half the House will be women. Let the imbalance be on the men for once.

Having said that, I support the proposed amendment by the Chair because the area of assisted reproduction is very new. There is a lot of abuse that goes on. There is a case that was reported where a doctor, who was an assisted reproduction technology expert, instead of using the gametes that were supplied, used his own gametes. It ended up with more than 100 siblings

who did not know each other and could end up marrying each other, brother and sister. Because of that, I agree with the Hon. Chair that a gamete or embryo cannot be put inside a woman unless it is that which is consented to by the woman. So, even if you are a doctor, if you go against what the law provides, it is a crime.

I support the Chairperson. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Thank you, Hon. Millie. (Question, that the words to be inserted be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, Clause 17 of the Bill be amended by—

I just wanted a clarification. Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I have heard the Chair of the Committee saying that he is only amending the word ‘child.’ What I have here indicates that we are doing much more than that. I do not know if I am the one who has it wrong. The proposed amendment that I got from the

Committee Report is that a person shall not obtain a sperm or ovum from a child or use any

leukaemia or other cancers that may affect their future abilities to have children and, therefore, you need to freeze their eggs or sperm for future procreation. The Chair can clarify.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. Chairperson, please,clarify briefly. Hon. Members, remember that we debated on this Bill for a very long time. So, we can just make sure that we are on point. Are you amending the word ‘child’ alone, or is it beyond that word as it has been explained by Hon. Millie Odhiambo?

It is beyond and in the context that she has said. That is why I earlier on said that you may harvest the ovum or sperm from a child for later use by the same child if they are sick and the cost of treatment will reduce them. We can save these for later use when they have recovered, and now they can be used by the same child with the child's consent or the guardian's consent. We concur completely.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Listening to the two of you, you agree with each other.

Clause 18

THAT, Clause 18 of the Bill be amended by—

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I know it is in my interest and in the interest of the House that we move very quickly but because there has also been a bit of misinformation about this Bill, it is good to put some things on record, and part of what the Chair is proposing in this amendment is that there shall be no form of human cloning. I support, amongst other things, including using or mixing human organs with animals. So, there is no form of human cloning.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

Clause 19

THAT, Clause 19 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by—

thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, Clause 20 of the Bill be amended by—

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Let me call first before we have a point of order. Actually Chairman, you still have more to move because we called the whole of clause 20. Would you like to prosecute all amendments now? Maybe, that is the same matter that Hon. Millie Odhiambo wants to raise. You have only talked about posthumous production. We still have parts (b) , (c) and (d) . You can give us justification for each one of them. Make it brief.

Okay. Parts (b) and (c) are about renumbering and deleting. The most important one there is part (d) . I think that is what Hon. Millie may be concerned about. When you do posthumous reproduction, a question arises – which is, how you place the ovum of a woman or the embryo must be in consent with what the woman wanted in terms of parentage. You cannot take that and put it in another woman, then when the baby is born you attribute the parentage to the woman who has died, while she did not give consent for that. That could be the issue that Hon. Millie is concerned about.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you. From our desk, you have covered all amendments.

Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. In fact, in line with what the Chairman has said, I wanted to propose a further amendment to delete the word ‘and’ between parts (a) and (b) in subclause 2, which says:

“ (2) Where the ovum of a woman or an embryo, the creation of which resulted from the ovum of that woman, was used after the death of that woman, that woman shall not be treated as the mother of the child born out of that ovum or embryo unless the —

Yes, I get you.

For example, if you are married with a child even if the child is not through assisted reproduction, if your wife dies, that is your child. You do not need to sign anywhere. With the word ‘and’ there, this clause has a totally different meaning.

I am, therefore, proposing that we delete the word ‘and’, so that it remains as ‘father was married to the woman at the time of the death of the woman.’

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : I would like to give a chance to the Chairman.

We concur. If you put the word ‘and’, then the two conditions in parts (a) and (b) must be met together. Whereas if you delete ‘and’, then part (a) stands on its own – ‘father was married to the woman at the time of the death of the woman.’ This shows there is no need for consent. Then part (b) , which says, ‘woman had given informed consent in writing’, can be in a case where the woman was probably not married and she had agreed to this. In such a case, you would have needed her consent. The two conditions in parts (a) and (b) need not be tied. Maybe we can use the word ‘or’ but whether we use the word ‘or’ or we delete it, it will have the same meaning.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Yes, Hon. Ole Sunkuli.

I am of the opinion that if you really do not want those two conditions, then just drop that particular amendment. If informed consent is essential for all these things, why would you need to say that…

They are married.

If they are married then why do we have to legislate? Why do we not just leave it?

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : It is very sensitive. I would like to hear the final word from the Chairman.

You would need to legislate because you may be dealing with a married woman. In that case, part (a) applies and no one can raise an issue.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Ole Sunkuli, I thought you would stay close to Hon. (Dr) Nyikal so that you can be more useful to the House.

But he is very close to his officers.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Okay.

Part (b) will apply when the woman is not married and, therefore, requiring a written consent. Where they are married, written consent is not needed. People can, however, still raise an issue because what we are dealing with here is a case where the woman gave her ovum when she was alive and it was used, but then she died. This ovum was then put in another woman later on. If that woman is now married to the man, then there is absolutely no issue because there is a link between the baby and the man. If the woman is not married or is married to a different man, then there is no link whatsoever.

In such case an earlier written consent is necessary. That means there has to have been consultations. Someone cannot just go to an ovum bank where some of the women owners of the ovum have died, and just take an ovum and use it to get pregnant. Then when they get pregnant and get the child, they turn around and say that that ovum belonged to the woman who has died and, therefore, the child belongs to the dead woman too.

Hon. Sunkuli, we are imagining of a case where somebody has mischievously used the ovum of the dead woman seeking to have the child. Then when the child is born, they want to abandon the child and say it belongs to the dead woman. If there was no consent from the dead woman, that would not happen. They must take responsibility for this child otherwise the child will remain parentless, with nobody to look after it. That is the essence of splitting the two.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Millie, I would like you to approach the Table as we give a chance to Hon. Ole Sunkuli.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, in that case, if we want those two conditions to exist, then why not delete the word “and” and replace it with “or”?

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Let us hear Hon. Ole Sunkuli.

I am just saying that we delete the word “and” and replace it with the word “or”, so that there are two conditions.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Noted. Thank you very much, Hon. Ole Sunkuli. I will give Hon. Millie a chance to move a further amendment to the amendment by the Chairman.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move a further amendment to the amendment by the Chairman:

THAT, Clause 20 of the Bill be amended in subclause

(2)

by deleting the word “and” appearing after subclause 2

(a)

and substituting therefore the word “or”. Thank you.

Clause 21

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. Chairman

THAT, Clause 21 of the Bill be amended by—

Yes, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support the Chairman's amendment, which gives better protection to children born of assisted reproduction. I just noticed, and you will guide me on this, that I wanted to make a further amendment to the title, which is Part Four - Rights of Parents, Donors and Children.

I noticed the Chairman did not have an amendment there, but I realised that we have not focused much on the rights of surrogates. I would have liked to include something on surrogates, but that would require changing the title, which is a bit late at this stage.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : We are not able to deal with the title at this moment.

Thank you. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Since you have supported it, I will put the Question.

Clause 22

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman, move your amendment.

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 22.

The essence of this is that nearly all the services provided are actually on medical grounds. This was intended to ask the national Government to implement services that were already addressed in another clause. So, we don not need it at this point.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): So, you are deleting?

We are deleting.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Hon. Millie, do you have any interest in this? Yes, you may proceed to prosecute.

Yes, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. This is one of the areas where I disagreed with the Committee. They said that once you provide rights for everyone, that is sufficient. However, because we know that intersex persons have very unique needs, I thought it necessary to mention them specifically. Clause 22 provides that the national Government and county governments should put in place measures to ensure that all intersex persons have access to assisted reproductive technology services.

When a special category is not given enough focus, you need to provide it with specific attention. On this one, I wish to oppose the proposed amendment by the Committee.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : In that case, the House will decide. Yes, Hon. Ole Sunkuli.

If you look, for instance, at Clause 14, it says that a person qualifies to undertake assisted reproductive technology where it is certified by a medical doctor that the person requires assisted reproductive technology on medical or health grounds.

That is why there is opposition to Clause 22, which is really... The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : We are on Clause 22.

Yes, I am trying to show that the county government... Perhaps I should leave that to the Chairman.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, may I intervene? The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : The point of contention is that the Chair is proposing a deletion, and Hon. Millie Odhiambo is suggesting that the deletion should not happen. She has given her justification. It is a matter of asking whether intersex persons also have human rights, just as we earlier discussed that children born through surrogacy are automatically provided with human rights.

May I explain? The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Please explain. For the sake of progress, I will put the Question after that.

The issue is that under Clause 14, we already provided that those who need the services will get them on medical grounds. Clause 22 seeks to specify that intersex people should get it, but if we do that, then we would also need to mention people with disabilities, or people who are deaf, or those with other medical challenges. If you begin affirmative action for one group, will you not then have to do so for all groups?

That is why we said that Clause 14 suffices. You cannot discriminate against intersex persons, because the clause already states that everybody deserves the service. Since you have said that everybody deserves it, why are we repeating that people with intersex should also get it? As long as you say everybody should get it is the point.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Yes, Hon. Millie.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The reason I disagreed with the Committee on this is that you cannot compare an intersex person with a deaf person when you are talking about reproductive issues.

An intersex person presents two organs, both male and female. That, therefore, means they will unnecessarily face serious challenges of reproductive nature, especially if they are looking for assisted reproduction. That cannot be compared with a person who is deaf or blind. They will face challenges, but not as many as an intersex person. That is why, for instance, when you are talking about leadership, we know that women will face its challenges. When it comes to issues of reproduction, no category will suffer as much as the intersex. That is why I thought we must provide very specifically for intersex persons so that when they go to hospitals, they will be treated specially. I am sure, Chair, you have come across people who do not know if they are Millie or Mark due to that. When they go to hospitals, they are treated in the same way. When they go to banks, the police are called on them, yet it is not their fault that they have two organs.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Millie, I think I only have an opportunity to ask the House to decide.

Clause 23

THAT, Clause 23 of the Bill be amended—

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I wish to support that provision by the Committee. They are providing clarity on what should be done with gametes in the future. This is not really my area, but the Committee provided excellent technical expertise. This is one of those areas where I appreciate what they did.

Clause 25

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Chairman.

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 25. It has listed conditions, but the fundamental issue here is that all those conditions are placing marriage as the primary qualification for having assisted reproductive technology services. The Committee’s position is that marriage should not be a hindrance; if you want assisted reproductive technology. Whether you are married or not, you should get the services. That is the justification for that deletion.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: I do not see any interest in this.

Clause 26

THAT, Clause 26 of the Bill be amended by—

The justification for this in (a) is that it indicates how people or children who come from assisted reproductive technology should be treated just like others. The word that was being used was different from the children that arose from sexual intercourse. We felt that was rather crude. Thus, we used the word natural conception. It means the same thing, but it is more civil. This is already provided for in (b). In (c), it is proposed that the Bill shall only apply to Kenyan citizens. Hence, the question of a child’s citizenship born as a result of assisted reproductive technology does not arise.

This Bill, as it is now, states that the services will be available to Kenyans. When children come out of this process, there is no question, they will be Kenyans. That is what we have indicated there.

(Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. Millie.

I support this. I wanted to remind the Chair that we have not yet moved the amendment regarding the preservation of this

Bill for Kenyans. I notice it is coming much earlier, so we might have to recommit to provide

THAT, Clause 28 of the Bill be amended—

On the justification to cross-reference to the name of the child born, basically, here the issue is if the person who provides the ovum, the egg, that is used in surrogacy, is such that those people who produce them are not linked to the surrogate parents. So, when the naming or parentage of the child comes up, it should not automatically be assumed that the people who intended to have a child will be the parents. They will need a court order.

The reason for this is that if the sperm or the ovum is with someone related to the child, later on, obviously, the child will have a genetic link. Therefore, the Committee’s position is that it is safer if they are not. The Committee is of the view that these are people who can…

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. (Dr) Nyikal, I know you are a medical doctor, and you want to make it simple for all of us to understand. But no matter how much you explain, we may not understand. Since Bill has been debated and the Committee has done a lot of work on it, and we are now in Committee of the whole House, please make it brief so that we can make progress.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : What is out of order, Hon. Millie Odhiambo?

Thank you Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I am just trying to make your life a little more difficult based on what you have just said. If you notice, the proposed amendments to Clause 28 are quite a number. I agree with all of them except one. When we move all of them together, it will deny me the opportunity to oppose the one I want to. Therefore, I wish to request that, in relation to this matter, we proceed with them by sub-clauses. This is because there are some of them I agree with, but there is a sub-clause I disagree with.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : That is okay. Hon. Millie, you will allow the House to propose the Question for debate. When we get to that particular clause, you will identify it and see whether the House will agree with you.

I want to give the Hon. Chairperson a chance to finalise, then I propose the Question, and we will see how we can assist Hon. Millie Odhiambo. Finalise, Hon. (Dr) Nyikal.

The only justification that was remaining is that the persons entering a surrogacy agreement shall only seek benefits as a consequence of surrogacy and not the process of surrogacy. The deletion is on the issue of whether people will go into surrogacy for commercial reasons. In our view, that should not be encouraged. But if, by chance, due to surrogacy, they need some material or financial support because of the process, that should be allowed. I think that is what the last justification is about. In addition, this refers to all conditions of surrogacy.

The last one, which is to protect the foetus, as the intended parents do not have control over a surrogate’s actions. This means that once you get into surrogacy and conception has occurred, Clause 28 says that surrogacy may indicate the terms of the agreement, including terms prohibiting the surrogate mother from partaking alcohol, smoking, and using prescribed drugs. That means they go into surrogacy, but we are putting conditions on them because we need to protect the child who is inside. So, that is what it means. I also want to hear the particular issue Hon. Millie has so that we can discuss it.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you. That is okay.

Hon. Millie Odhiambo,

Thank you Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I wish to support the proposed amendments by the Hon. Chairperson of the

Committee. Upon reflection on where I wanted to oppose, I have seen that I can live with the wording. My concern is about something that came up when we debated this in the last Parliament. Hon. Joyce Lay indicated that when she had her own child, she was forced to go to court to get a court order. That is really demeaning for a person who is struggling very hard to have a child, considering that not many people are that brave to go to court. The wording provided here is somewhat mid-way. It states that a person may apply to the High Court for any necessary orders concerning the validity of a surrogacy agreement. It presupposes that there may be a dispute. It is not mandating…

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Which sub-clause is that? We have one to 10.

It is 6. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Okay.

By inserting a new sub-clause immediately after new sub-clause 5, which is the new sub-clause 6. That is a proposed new sub-clause 6 of the same 28. One of my concerns regarding the heading, aside from Clause 28, which we have deferred, and also protects the surrogate, is that there is a bit of protection for the surrogate in this part. I want us to have a balance of protecting intended parents and protecting the surrogates.

I support. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Thank you. Let us now make progress.

Clause 29

Hon. Chairperson, you have an amendment.

THAT, Clause 29 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by—

In the last one, it deletes the word “commissioning” appearing in paragraph (c) and substitutes it with the word “intended”. Commissioning gives the impression that this is a commercial process. That is why we are using the phrase “intended parent,” and that is the justification.

(Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. Millie, do you want to contribute to this amendment?

Yes. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Okay. You may proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support Hon. (Dr) Nyikal. He is technical sometimes because of brevity. He is not explaining that the reason he is deleting some words and substituting them with the word “Constitution” is because of the issue of termination of pregnancy. Some people want to dwell on abortion issues. We are only following what is in the Constitution. If there is any termination of pregnancy, it is as per the Constitution. We are not providing anything new.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Clause 30 of the Bill is one of the clauses that we agreed that would be handled at a later time because there were proposed amendments by Hon. Kaluma. For Members who have come in after that decision was made, that is the reason for skipping Clause 30 of the Bill. Is that okay?

I can hear the voice of the Member for Baringo. I am sorry when I am seated here I am unable to see you when you lift your hand.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : The best way to catch my attention is to press the intervention button.

Sure. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I have a concern with Hon. Irene here. I want to take you back a bit to Clause 28 of the Bill. I do not know whether that is possible. It is not possible, but I will raise it.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : The rules of the House do not allow it to happen.

Yes, I know.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): They do not allow you to go back to Clause 28 of the Bill, Member for Baringo.

Yes, I know that, but I have a concern in Clause 28 (7) of the Bill.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Even if you do it, it will not make a difference, but I can allow you to raise it.

Can I raise it? The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Yes.

Clause 28 (7) of the Bill says: “The parties to a marriage shall not give any monetary or other benefits to the surrogate mother other than for expenses reasonably incurred in the process of surrogacy.” This is debatable because what then should be the reason someone should be a surrogate? I need money.

On a point of information, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Members, it is completely out of order. I can do it when I am not seated where I am now. I can encourage that debate. Unfortunately, I cannot go to Clause 28 of the Bill. Whom do you want to inform? There is nobody on the Floor of the House to inform, Hon. Millie.

I can inform the House. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Members, let us just make progress. Before we continue, Hon. Members, we have students seated in the Public Gallery this morning. We have students from Mary Happy School from Kamukunji Constituency, Nairobi City County. I want to identify a Member from Nairobi City County to welcome the students. Yes, you may proceed, Member for Kibra.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I take this opportunity as the Member for Kibra, which is in Nairobi City County, to welcome these students in this august House. Let the presence of the Members of this House give them inspirations of their future endeavours. On behalf of all the Members in this House feel welcome. These children are watching the proceedings on the Bill that is being debated today in the Committee of the whole House, so that they can know the procedures. Some of them will be Members of Parliament in future. I welcome you.

Thank you. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Thank you very much, Member for Kibra in Nairobi City County.

Clause 32

The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Chairman.

THAT, Clause 32 of the Bill be amended by—

Okay. The amendment in Clause 32

(b)

of the Bill prohibits the sale or transfer of embryos.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Member for Bahati, Hon. Irene Mrembo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. This topic is close to my heart. If we honestly decide to say that you cannot choose the sex, I will not go for it because I know what I want. Maybe I have boys, and I want a girl. If I have a choice, I cannot go for it. It should be open.

Many couples will go for it because of choices. I would like to choose a boy or girl. We should not limit what people want. Remember, I am spending money to do this. I am doing this out of choice. I will also choose whether they will have blue, black or brown eyes. Remember, this is my choice. You should not limit it.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : That is okay, Member for Bahati. Hon. Sunkuli, Member for Kilgoris and a Member of the Departmental Committee on Health.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, the problem that is being raised by our Hon. colleague from Bahati is a huge moral and ethical issue that cannot be finalised in this Committee of the whole House. This is one of the biggest problems some of us have. If you have to choose the child's colour or sex, that means you are encouraging termination of that pregnancy. You are going into a world which is full of ethical issues.

This is about life, but not a simple matter. The most important thing is that we have gone through this debate. During winnowing of the amendments, we raised these issues. It is only fair for the House to look at it and say, let us not get into that deep water of ethical issues. Do you want to kill the foetus that you do not like so that you can survive?

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Jematiah.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I also want to add to what Hon. Irene and Hon. Sunkuli have said. We are allowing science to play. When we do it, we are not looking at it from the negative perspective. I like what the Chairperson of the Committee has said. We do not want to encourage abortion. We will strictly abide by the Constitution. I do not think you want to kill because of the sex because you can still predetermine it before the foetus grows. That is science.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman, you will be the last one to comment before I put the Question.

Thank you. I know this is one of those difficult issues. I understand Hon. Irene that culturally, sometimes there are people who are divorced because they do not have sons or daughters. There are people who may mainly want sons. Some people may want to go into assisted reproduction so that they save their marriage by getting a son.

However, I also agree with Hon. Sunkuli that, there are many serious ethical issues when we think about assisted reproduction. The example by Hon. Irene puts us in that murky water. We are talking about designer babies when we talk about their colour as black, white, green, or yellow. We are less concerned about designer babies from our Kenya’s perspective but more about social issues.

Having said that and even though I agree with the deletion by Chair, it is not for the reasons that he gave. It is because of Clause 31 that already speaks to Clause 32. It says:

“A person shall not knowingly provide, prescribe, or administer anything that shall ensure or increase the probability that an embryo shall be of a particular sex….” He is saying the opposite of what this says.

Chair, you are supporting Hon. Irene if Clause 31 was not there. However, Clause 31 still opposes Hon. Irene. Otherwise, Chair, I support you but for the reason that it is already catered for in Clause 31.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Chairman, you can make your comments brief so that I put the Question.

I take Hon. Millie's point on Clauses 31 and

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 33 of the Bill be amended –

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 34 of the Bill be amended-

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Thank you. (Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 35 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “Directorate” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”. This is in relation to the functions of the council instead of the directorate. The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

There is no interest.

Clause 36

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman, move your amendment.

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 36 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “Directorate” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”. It is for the same reason. However, now we have to replace the word “directorate” with “council”.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 37 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “Directorate” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”. The justification is in alignment with the decision of the council instead of directorate. The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

Clause 38

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman, move your amendment.

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 38 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words “Directorate in consultation with the Medical Practitioners and Dentists Council” and substituting therefor the word “Council”. This is again for the same reason of the council and the directorate. The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

Clause 40

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman, move your amendment.

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 40 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “Directorate” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”.

Once again, it is because we have deleted the word directorate and replaced it with the word council to align.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Thank you. (Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the word to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the word to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, Clause 41 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “Directorate” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”. This is because we have to replace the word “Directorate” with the word “Council”.

Clause 42

THAT, Clause 42 of the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support the inclusion of the word “authorised”. As it was, “any” was very dangerous because “any” means anything or anyone. Including “authorised” makes it more rigid and it will control what happens in the licensing process.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Clause 43

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Chairman.

THAT, Clause 43 of the Bill be amended —

be inserted, put and agreed to) (Question that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, Clause 44 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “Directorate” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”. The justification, as we had said earlier, is the issue of the Council and the Directorate. We are just replacing the two words to harmonise the whole Bill.

(Question that the word to be left

out be left out, put and agreed to)

consulted with the Clerk-at-the-Table) Clause 45

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Yes, Hon. Irene, Member for Bahati.

Sorry, I hope I am not taking you back. Looking at this Bill, I wonder if after licensing these hospitals or doctors, there is any chance that I may have my embryos stored and sold without my authority. Is there a clause that protects my embryos?

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. (Dr) Nyikal, I give you a chance to respond to that question.

We actually have a provision to that. Nobody can handle any embryo without the consent of the owner of the embryo.

What about commercialisation?

If you look back, we have gone through a number of clauses on commercialisation of the process.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Irene, we have several Clauses that are securing the embryos, so a situation like that cannot happen. Look from Clause

11 which speaks to the use of embryos, consent of parties, post-humous use without consent, circumstances for undertaking assisted… You just need to go to the Bill and you will see the Committee did a very good job. Actually, the whole House since this Bill has been here since the 11th and 12th Parliaments to date. We thank God that it is happening in the 13th Parliament and there is a possibility of closure.

Is anything out of order, Hon. Member for Nandi County?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : It is a point of information, right?

Yes. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Who would you like to inform?

I would like to inform the Hon. Member for Bahati.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : I am obliged to ask the Member for Bahati whether she would like to be informed by the Member for Nandi.

Yes. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Proceed.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, for the comfort of the Member for Bahati, I have sat through this Bill with passionate submissions from Hon. Millie and other contrary submissions from Members who appeared before the Committee. Part of the issues raised were exactly what she has raised. Having gone through the Bill together with my very able Chairperson and having combed through every statement within the Bill, considering the sensitivity of this matter, her concern is properly taken care of in four clauses.

Hon. Millie and the Committee did a very good job as well as the Members who have been able to contribute to this Bill in legally safeguarding the privacy of the embryos that will be stored for whatever reason. Hon. Njoki, you are properly and legally covered.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Thank you. Hon. Members, let us make progress. Clause 45

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move; THAT, Clause 45 of the Bill be amended in subclause

(2)

by deleting the word “Directorate” appearing in paragraph

(b)

and substituting therefor the word “Council”. This has to do with the functions of the directorate which now we want to be in the Council. So, it is just alignment.

(Question, that the word to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, Clause 46 of the Bill be amended—

I do not see any interest. Hon. Eric Muchangi, Member for Runyenjes. Hon. Cynthia Muge, Member for Nandi County. So, we proceed.

Clause 47

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move; THAT, Clause 47 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “Directorate” appearing in sub-clause (1) and substituting therefor the word “Council” Once again, it is to do with the functions of the directorate and the Council. So basically we are just harmonising with that change that we have already made.

(Question of the amendment proposed)

Hon. Cynthia Muge.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support the conformity proposed by Hon. (Dr) Nyikal. But allow me to state my discomfort regarding provision 47 (b) . It talks about the application, if the Council refuses to give you a licence, you can then appeal to the Cabinet Secretary. My discomfort is that the Council is made up of competent and skilled people in that sector. When the Council refuses, it gives another leeway to apply to a Cabinet Secretary who, most of the time, is not a medic and probably, not conversant with what happens.This is quite uncomfortable for me. I think I have stated it clearly. I just wanted to bring it to the attention of the Chair and the Hon. Members, so that we can see what happens to it. I feel it is not very good in terms of professionalism.

Chairman.

Chair, that may be true and it actually appeals to my feelings as well. But what we have before me did not include it. So, you can guide us on whether, at this time, we can move an amendment to that part.

Why are you saying that you cannot?

Because we only dealt with 47 (1) . I do not think we have covered that. So, if you are going to move that amendment, can I do it now?

What we did was 47, where the Director refuses to issue a licence and the Cabinet Secretary may make such amendments. Well, if an amendment is being made or is in process, I can accommodate it. We have to say where we move the amendment.

Here is a directorate, it has refused to issue a licence and it has also refused to vary. What the Member of Parliament for Nandi is uncomfortable with, is that you can go to the Cabinet Secretary. Therefore, that is the one we wanted you to make a comment on and then we put the question.

Before the Chair thinks, let us hear from the Member for Kibra.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I think before the Chair comments, as much as health is a devolved function, we still have a national umbrella. We must always have a pathway in all our systems so that we never have a gap. We must always have a bridge so that if you cannot get an opportunity, then you have a place to appeal. You can never say that if a Cabinet Secretary is not a medic, he cannot make a decision. We have personnel within the ministry and within medical circles who advise the Cabinet Secretary. I think this is just a provision to ensure people are not stopped at the county level.

We give this leeway so that people have an opportunity to pursue their courses, especially when they are denied certificates at the local level. This is just a pathway to give people room for appeal. It does not limit or necessarily bar them from pursuing. Otherwise, I think we must make a pathway for those who do not get justice at certain levels.

So, for the comfort of the Member of Parliament for Nandi, you have the directorate, and when they make a decision, you are not comfortable with you can go to the Cabinet Secretary. Clearly, the Cabinet Secretary is advised; they have advisors. But you can also go to court. I think we will get there.

I would like to go to the Chairman. Can we go to the Member of Parliament for Kilgoris? Hon. Millie, we come to you first. I would like to go to the Member for Kilgoris then we can come to you. Sorry, she takes precedence. Member of Parliament for Kilgoris, women first. Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

I like it when you help, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

In terms of order of precedence, she speaks first. So, let her go ahead.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Other than the fact that I love it when there are Hon. Lady Speakers, I am not too sure where the Hon. Member for Nandi is getting that from. I have looked at the proposed amendments by the Chair and I have also looked at the Bill.

The Bill, in subclause (6) , says the Cabinet Secretary shall make regulations for the refusal, variation and revocation of licences by the Directorate, which is now the Council, under this Act. So, the Cabinet Secretary shall only make regulations. I am not aware, unless you can point me to where there is an appeal, because I have looked at what the Committee is proposing and I am not seeing any appeal in the Bill. In what subclause? Sorry, I was in Clause 46. No wonder. If that is the case, I will also agree with her. This is especially if we are talking about health being devolved and then you say the Cabinet Secretary may make such determination on the review as deemed fit. I think it would be prudent to leave it to the High Court. But still, even if you have the Cabinet Secretary and they are arbitrary, you can still go to the High Court. However, I think it is one of those clauses we should have deleted.

She started by saying she was not opposing. Unless you are opposing now the Member of Parliament for Nandi. No, I will go to the Member of Parliament for Kilgoris first. It is good to be consistent.

Not only that, but also when it comes to precedence, because the Whip of the Majority/Minority Party takes precedence. I also take precedence over her. Hon. Temporary Chairlady, you are the overall boss.

Having come from the Committee, we could retain this as it is. First, it is a human rights issue. When you apply for a licence and the Council rejects it, you then appeal to the Cabinet Secretary. Clause 48 provides that where the Cabinet Secretary, upon application for review under Section 47, determines to refuse, there is still the avenue of the High Court. What is more consoling, as a member of the Delegated Legislation Committee is that any decision or action taken by the Cabinet Secretary must form part of delegated legislation. Under Section 47, they can make regulations, and since Section 47 comes before Section 48, this determination is not blanket. It must relate to the regulations made under Section 47. The process is sound.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

Clause 49

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 49 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “Directorate” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”.

This is necessary to harmonise with our earlier decision to remove the word Directorate and replace it with the word Council.

(Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the word to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the word to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 50 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by—

I support the amendment because anything done can easily be excused as having been done unknowingly or without recklessness. Removing those words ensures accountability. If you commit the offence, you are guilty and must be punished. This is a delicate matter.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

New Clauses 19A, 19B, and 19C

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clauses immediately after clause 19– Number of times one can donate gametes or embryos or be a surrogate. 19A. (1) A person shall not donate their gametes or embryos more than ten times.

Donation of gametes or embryos. 19B. (1) A cryo bank shall obtain—

Disposal of gametes. 19C. (1) The Council may, under such conditions as may be prescribed, permit—

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that New Clauses 19A, 19B and 19C be now read a Second Time. The justification for Clause 19A is to limit the number of donations of gametes and surrogacies for the health and well-being of surrogate mothers and foetuses. It sets a reasonable cap on how many donations an individual can make.

New Clause 19B provides the age limit of donors to ensure the quality of gametes and improve the chances of successful transfers.

Clause 19C provides for the disposal of gametes, either through donation or research. This is extremely important because if we do not specify how gametes are disposed of or how

long they can be stored, there could be misuse, especially in research, which is particularly concerning.

I, therefore, beg to move. (Question, that the new clause be read a Second Time, proposed) The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): I see interest from the Member for Kibra.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, when we were growing up, many of our mothers gave birth to 15 or even 20 children. But this Bill says a person cannot donate embryos more than 10 times. I do not know what the Committee considered because some of the ladies I see here are very fertile. Even the Hon. Temporary Chairlady looks like one who could give embryos more than 10 times. I think it should be limitless because some give birth every year.

I have also noted that an age limit has been set for men who donate sperm. But you know, even wine matures with age. The longer it stays, the better it gets.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Order! Are you comparing sperm to wine? That the longer it stays, the better.

It is just an analogy I am giving because some men are very productive even at 70 years. This includes my brother here, Dr Nyikal. I support the Bill, but let us not limit the age.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Well, this is a House of debate. Yes, the Member for Baringo County.

Wait for the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

I also, generally, support this Bill. I agree with Member for Kibra that there should be no limitation. First of all, it is a wish…

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : The Member for Kibra is called Hon. Orero.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, Hon. Orero is also my friend. We are more than 14 siblings in my home which is beyond what the committee is trying to restrict here. I know women who have up to 18 children. This is not debatable. I think the Committee should not restrict the number of eggs one can donate. We can allow this because some genes are better than others. Many people would probably want to have children of a particular lineage or genotype because of many factors like resistance and height and other factors. So, these are factors to consider when dealing with such Bills. It should be free. We were given the power to procreate and reproduce.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Thank you. Member for Suba North, Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

I wish to support the Committee, especially on New Clause 19A to limit the number of times a person can donate their gametes or embryos to 10. The reason being that if you have more children born through donation, there is a likelihood of people marrying their relatives.

Secondly, I thank the Hon. Member for raising that her mother has 14 children. Those are her children. For a surrogate, these are not her children. She will still need to have her own children. If we let a woman carry 10 children for someone else, we are compromising their own right or possibility of having their own. Even though we are prohibiting commercialisation, due to poverty, we know some people may try to commercialise. Some may go in because of commercialisation, compromising their health. We are, therefore, protecting the surrogate. We are also limiting commercialisation by limiting the number of times one can enter into surrogacy in their lifetime to three.

I also support the New Clause 19C on disposal of gametes. However, I wish to propose an amendment to New Clause 19B by deleting the word ‘or’. New Clause 19B(1) says that:

19B. (1) A cryo bank shall obtain—

thirty-five years of age; or

five years of age. This means that they either have male or female and not both. I propose we delete the word ‘or’ so that the cryo bank can have both oocytes and gametes from males and females.

Thank you. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Chairperson, I would like you to take note of what Hon. Millie said. We will come back to you. Proceed, Member for Kericho, Hon. Beatrice Kemei.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

As Hon. Millie has said regarding supporting the Committee’s proposal of limiting the donation of embryo and gametes, I wonder how they arrived at 10, not more or less. Can I be informed why it is ten times?

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I understand Hon. Millie’s explanation that if one donates gametes more than 10 times, people can marry their blood relatives. Why is it 10 times? Let me get that information.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Members, for the purpose of making progress, I give this chance to the Chair. Are you the one who is prosecuting on behalf of the Chair of that Committee?

Let Hon. Sunkuli speak and then we will come to you because you have a decision to make on Hon. Millie’s matter. We realised that the microphone is faulty.

How about this one? The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : It is working.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, there are two points.

First of all, I totally agree that if we allow someone to go on a random production of children, we will end up reproducing bad genetics because incest will occur. At any rate, it is

not good for one man to populate the world. There is the issue of the word ‘or’ in this Clause. I want us to read it correctly. New Clause 19B of the Bill says:

Donation of gametes or embryos. 19B. (1) A cryo bank shall obtain—

A cryo bank can choose between the two. But if you say ‘and’, it means you are compelling them….

(Hon. Millie Odhiambo-Mabona spoke off the record) For drafting purposes, how will it be? If you move from New Clause 19B(a) to (b) without the word ‘and’ or ‘or’, it will be okay grammatically. It gives two options. That is why we are using the word ‘or’.

If you choose between males and females, males are between 21 years and 35 years but females are between 23 years to 35 years. If it describes males and females of the same ages, we can have it in one paragraph. If you are varying the qualifications of a man and woman, we definitely need the two paragraphs.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. Chairman.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, New Clause 19A (2) says:

A person shall not perform a treatment procedure using gametes or an embryo produced by a donor, if such procedure may result in more than 10 children who are genetic siblings. Hon. Millie has indicated that there is a danger in having many children with the same genetic pattern. Many of these deductions are from scientific observations. In places where these procedures have been done many times, the probability becomes higher; beyond 10. However, if science disapproves this theory later on, we will amend the Bill.

Surrogacy is a very strenuous thing. It is not similar to normal conception where you go through hormonal preparations then procedures. It is something that you are not doing for yourself; you are doing it for other people. If you allow people to become professional surrogates, that will not be altruistic. This Bill is trying to be as altruistic as possible to people who need fertility services, and not for those who want to gain commercially.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman, the only part where we had a problem was Clause 19 (b) . The rest was not being contested.

Okay. In Clause 19 (b) , two things are independent. Gametes from males will be totally different from oocytes from females. I do not see why we should link them. When somebody comes to you to donate an ovum, that will be a lady coming to donate. I do not see where they will come with a man.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Does the word “or” remain?

We delete the word “or”. Advise me on how to handle the word “or” and then we delete it. Therefore, I propose a further amendment that we delete the word “or” in Clause 19 (b) .

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : You move in an amended form.

THAT, the Bill be further amended in Clause 19 (b) by deleting the word “or.” The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Well noted.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

New Clause 24A

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after Clause 24— Pre-implantation diagnosis or testing.

24A. A donor shall undergo a pre-implantation diagnosis or testing for purposes of screening the human embryo or gamete for known, pre-existing, heritable or genetic diseases.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the new clause 24A be now read a Second Time.

The proposal states that a donor must undergo pre-implantation genetic diagnosis or testing to screen the human embryo or gamete for known, pre-existing, hereditary genetic diseases. Certain genetic diseases can be inherited from either the mother or the father through their sperm or ovum, and some of these diseases can be quite debilitating. If individuals are seeking fertility assistance to have a child, it is crucial for them to know if there is a possibility of passing on hereditary diseases, even if those diseases are recessive.

Therefore, there is a need to screen people for such diseases before they donate the ovum or the sperm. We need to protect the foetuses that will come from this process.

I beg to move. The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you, very much.

Hon. Cynthia Muge, I can see that you have interest in this new clause.

I resisted when this proposal was put forward previously because I thought it wanted you to predetermine what you want to get. Looking at a number of people born with sickle cell anaemia, you do not want to undertake such risk when seeking surrogacy.

I support and highly recommend the clause because it will help us with some preventable diseases that can be detected before implantation happens. Therefore, I support this clause.

The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

(Question, that the new clause be added to the Bill, put and agreed to) New Clauses 27A and 27B

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clauses immediately after clause 27— Intended parents.

27A. An intended parent may use assisted reproductive technology where the intended parent—

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the new clauses 27A and 27B be now read a Second Time.

In New Clause 27A, an intended person may use assisted reproduction where the person is a Kenyan, has attained the age of 25 years, and is below the age of 55 years.

This introduces two important factors in assisted reproduction. The first one, as indicated earlier, is that we want to limit this law to Kenyans only. The purpose for that is, we do not intend to open this country for assisted reproductive services tourism. People will come to Kenya to seek these services because it is not available in their own countries or for commercial purposes.

Let me give you an example to justify that. If you allow such, it is possible that people may come to this country to get it done but you will not know the arrangement behind it. When I was practising medicine, we had a baby that was delivered. At the time the mother came into the labour ward, they had a name of somebody else who flew in from another country. For all practical purposes, the lady who delivered never did it but the one who came from abroad, is the one who “delivered”. They were seeking to travel abroad with the baby, which is a form of child trafficking. Again, the issue of how you handle embryos and gametes that are stored can be a subject of research. If you allow people to come in, you may find that you are making it available for people to do research that may be unorthodox.

The second part is about age. It also has the optimal reproductive age when they should be involved in surrogacy. New Clause 27 (B) is basically meant to let the surrogate mothers and fathers have maternity leave and paternity leave, respectively, like in all other deliveries without discrimination. In this case, the surrogate mother under this Act is entitled to three months lochia or post-partum leave. An intended mother is entitled to three months maternity leave so that the mother who has given birth is resting and the mother who has taken over the new baby has time to also acquaint with the baby. Definitely, the father needs a little less time, so he will be given two weeks leave.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move. Leave related to surrogacy.

27B. (1) A surrogate mother under this Act shall be entitled to three months lochia leave.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I wish to support this proposal because of the possibility of tourism. I agree with the Committee on restricting this to Kenyan citizens only. This consideration is in the best interest of the child, as it allows for better monitoring of children born through assisted reproduction within Kenya. It is also in the interest of women who deliver under assisted reproduction. The intended parent, the surrogate, and the father all deserve to have leave. I support.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Cynthia Muge.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I definitely support the new clause. There were concerns regarding provision (c) , which states that the parent should be below the age of 55 years. I support this with every part of me because parenting is not an easy job; it is a responsibility that must be taken seriously. I also advocate for the normalisation of surrogacy. Part of this normalisation, as outlined in the New Clause 27B, is that the intended mother will go on leave just like a biological mother. This approach fosters a sense of belonging and ownership for the child.

I support.

New Clauses 28A and 28B

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clauses immediately after clause 28— Surrogacy agreements by third parties.

28A. (1) No person shall on a commercial basis engage in acts in Kenya or knowingly cause another person to engage in acts on a commercial basis including—

I beg to move that New Clauses 28A and 28B be now read a Second Time.

New Clause 28A prohibits commercialisations of surrogacy. This clause forbids anyone from initiating negotiations, offering agreements, or involving any payments that would lead to the process being commercialised or of a commercial nature. New Clause 28B outlines all the possible methods of commercialisation of surrogacy. Additionally, it provides for the undertaking of public education, the distribution of information, and the prevention of exploitation following surrogacy. It details the offences related to any efforts to commercialise surrogacy.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Thank you, Hon. Chairperson. I will proceed to propose the question.

New Clause 32A

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after clause 32— Prohibition on certain publications.

32A. (1) A person shall not publish, or cause to be published, an advertisement or notice to the effect that a person—

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that New Clause 32A be now Read a Second Time. The purpose of this Clause relates to regulating commercialising surrogacy. It provides for the offence if that happens. Hon. Temporary Chairlady I beg to move.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Thank you. (Question, that the new clause be read a Second Time, proposed) (Question, that the new clause be read a Second Time, put and agreed to) (Question, that the new clause be added to the Bill, put and agreed to) New Clause 51A

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after clause 51— Transitional provisions.

51A. (1) Every clinic or cryo bank which conducts assisted reproductive technology, partly or exclusively shall, within a period of sixty days from the date of establishment of the Committee, apply for licences provided that such clinics and cryo banks shall cease to conduct any assisted reproduction procedures on the expiry of six months from the date of commencement of this Act, unless such clinics and cryo banks have applied for registration.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the New Clause 51A be now read a Second Time.

The New Clause 51A recognises the fact that at the moment there is no law regulating this yet there are processes that are going on. Therefore, what we are providing for is transition for those who have already started this process.

I beg to move. The Temporary Chairlady

(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai)

: Thank you.

New Schedule

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following New Schedule — ( s. 5(2)) SCHEDULE CONDUCT OF BUSINESS AND AFFAIRS OF THE COMMITTEE Meetings.

may, with approval of the Cabinet

Contracts and instruments.

Disclosure of Interest.

Minutes.

shall cause minutes of all resolutions and

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the New Schedule be now read a Second Time.

The purpose of this Schedule is to provide for how to conduct the businesses that relate to the Committee that we formed in the Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentists Council (KMPDC) instead of the Directorate. This Committee will have very specific functions noting

that there are usually requirements on how committees operate and how the membership is approved. This Schedule seeks to provide for the business that shall be conducted by that Committee.

I beg to move. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Thank you. (Question, that the New Schedule be read a Second Time, proposed) (Question, that the New Schedule be read a Second Time, put and agreed to) (Question, that the New Schedule be added to the Bill, put and agreed to) Clause 2

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Chairman.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, it has been brought to my attention that when we provided the list of clauses that Hon. Kaluma had amendments and was interested in, we excluded Clause 2. It is my plea that Clause 2 be treated in the same way as the other clauses that Hon. Kaluma had amendments to.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Would you like to include it?

I would like to include it in the list that I provided.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : In accordance with Standing Order 133 (10) , we now include Clause 2 among the clauses that will be discussed at a later date.

Thank you. Long Title

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) : Hon. Chairman.

THAT, the Long Title of the Bill be amended by deleting the words “to establish an Assisted Reproductive Technology Directorate”. As we had indicated earlier, we have decided that we do not need the directorate and this will be a Committee under the Medical Practitioners and Dentist Council.

(Question, that the words to be left,

out be left out, put and agreed to)

I now call the Mover to move.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee report to the House its consideration of the Assisted

Reproductive Technology Bill (National Assembly Bill No.61 of 2022) except for Clauses 3, 8, 14, 27, 30 and 52 and its approval thereof with amendments and seek leave to sit again.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Hon. Chairperson, the first one is Clause 2 and not 3.

I am sorry. It is Clause 2

Hon. Members, can the Chairperson Report to the House.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill (National Assembly Bill No.61 of 2022) except for Clauses 2, 8, 14, 27, 30 and 52, and approved the same with amendments and seek leave to sit again.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Mover.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report.

I request Hon. Sunkuli to second the Motion for agreement with the report of the Committee of the whole House.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to second.

Thank you.

Hon. Members, the time being 1.05 p.m. the House stands adjourned until this afternoon at 2.30 pm.

The House rose at 1.05 p.m.

Published by Clerk of the National Assembly Parliament Buildings Nairobi