July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Wednesday, 8th July, 2015

Hon. Senators, before we commence the Order on Statements, I have a communication to make.

I am pleased to acknowledge and to welcome to the Senate this afternoon Members and staff of Kericho County Assembly who are seated in the Speaker’s Gallery. I request that when their names are called out, they stand so that they are acknowledged in our usual Senate tradition.

Hon. Japheth Mutai Hon. Charles Ngetich Hon. Chumo Kiprono Hon. Daniel Rono Hon. Livingstone Kirui Hon. Jackson Kikwai Hon. Emily Mutai Hon. Benard Mutai Hon. John Sang Hon. John Too Hon. Phillip Kosgey Hon. Sharon Cherono Hon. Betsy Chebet Hon. Mary Betty Chelagat

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to respond to a statement that was sought.

Order! Which one are you dealing with as per our appendix?

I am dealing with statement “d”.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I, kindly, request that you allow me, on behalf of the Senator for Kericho County, to appreciate the County Assembly delegation from Kericho County. You know that Sen. Charles Keter, the Senator for Kericho, is our Deputy Majority Leader. He is right now engaged in national parliamentary business. I am stepping in to welcome the delegation from Kericho County on his behalf. They are my neighbours. Therefore, I can step in for him.

Order, Sen. Sang. That is the problem of not following the proceedings. I thought I concluded by saying; “on behalf of the Senate and on my own behalf.” Was that not satisfactory to you?

Proceed, Sen. Sijeny. What is it, Sen. Dullo?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thought we were going to follow the Order Paper. We have jumped from (a) to (d) .

Order, Sen. Dullo! No one has jumped anything. We follow the order when there is no request. For this particular case, Sen. Sijeny had put a request. Therefore, I have given her preference she demonstrated her willingness and eargerness to proceed as you are waiting for your turn.

Yes, Sen. Karaba.

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Order, Sen. Karaba! I have not forgotten. We should take one thing at a time.

Proceed, Sen. Sijeny.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to read the following Statement as the Vice Chairperson of the Committee on Roads and Transport on behalf of the Chairman.

The Senator for Migori County, Sen. (Dr.) Machage, rose on the Floor of the House and requested for a Statement from the Chairman of the Senate Standing Committee on Roads and Transportation regarding the status of the Mai Mahui-Narok Road (B3) as follow:-

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. (Dr.) Machage.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is, indeed, a great shame to this Government because of its ineptitude and unconcerned sort of view that it has on the newly constructed roads. Most of the newly constructed roads have potholes that have not been given attention at all. This road was completed in 2011, therefore, it is only four years old. It is a pity that it is totally in a deplorable condition. How many years’ lifespan was the road designed for? Secondly, did the contractor have any grace period of maintenance on this road?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, road construction works in Kenya leaves a lot to be desired. This issue does not affect this road only. Many roads in Kenya have been done to substandard level. Potholes develop even before the roads are completed. Worse still, even after completion, the contractors leave the roads unmarked, leading to more accidents. Could the Chairman of the Committee ensure that in future, roads are constructed to the required standards? Could she undertake that the companies that construct such roads will guarantee to undertake the repair works themselves for a certain number of years?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is evident that either the design or works on that road were substandard. Many roads are in a similar situation. I believe that there must have been a consultancy firm which ensures that standards are maintained. What steps have been taken to ensure that the supervising firm has been called upon to account for the shoddy job they did, including ensuring that they are penalized and even blacklisted, so that they do not supervise similar works?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is really hurting to realize that the road was completed in 2011 and it already requires major maintenance. Other than that, this road

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to know how much was used to eradicate those potholes along the Narok road.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want a clarification regarding the contractors who were constructing that road. First, is there any possibility that any of them are within the list of the cowboy contractors who were blacklisted by Parliament a while back? Are there any blacklisted contractors who are currently working for the Government?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that road leads to the world’s famous Maasai Mara Game Reserve, which is one of the most beautiful destinations in the world. I would like to know if there was any sabotage by the air charters during the design and tarmacking of that road.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would request for more time to give a further comprehensive response. This is because some of the issues that have been raised concerning the same road had not been asked earlier. Regarding how many years the road was meant to last, I have no information here with me. I need one more week to answer to all the questions that have been raised concerning this road.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Chairperson is telling us that even the answer that she gave us is substandard. Could she be given more time to go and get us appropriate answers?

Order! She has requested for more time and the Chair will grant her one more week.

Next statement, by Sen. Dullo.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to respond to the Statement that was sought by Sen. Munyes on the existence of international boundary disputes between Kenya and her neighbours.

He particularly sought to be informed on:-

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me start by thanking the Chairperson for that elaborate presentation.

The Kenyan territory is critically in question. As we all heard in this House, there are disputes in the four neighbouring countries. If you look at our borders, the Kenyan territory is defined in---

Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me start by thanking the Chairperson for that elaborate presentation.

The Kenyan territory is critically in question. As we all heard in this House, there are disputes in the four neighbouring countries. If you look at our borders, the Kenyan territory is defined in---

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o and Sen. Sang! Please, consult in low tones.

Proceed, Sen. Munyes.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Chapter 2 and Article 5 of our Constitution define our borders as “borders defined by an Act of Parliament”. The only existing Act of Parliament that we have is the District and Provinces Act of 1992 which defines some of these territories like the Turkana County as a flat line which leaves out the whole chunk of the Elemi Triangle.

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Please, seek your clarification.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, when is this Government undertaking a process or a programme to resolve the dispute in the northern part of this country that is now called “the dispute of the Eelmi Triangle”?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank Sen. Dullo for her detailed response. It is evident that Kenya is at some form of conflict with all the neighbours. When you look at the Kenya-South Sudan border, the students we have today in the 8-4-4 system of education, one of the things they are asked to do is draw the map of Kenya. When you look at this horizontal line theory that is affecting northern Kenya, especially in Turkana, it causes a lot of confusion. Those of us who went through 8-4-4 system, we never drew the map of Kenya with a horizontal line, but with some curves. I hope that urgent measures will be taken to rectify that and get rid of the confusion.

My question on the Kenya-Somalia border, particularly on the exclusive economic zone where there is some conflict, is there a risk that Tanzania will be asked into this conflict because if you pursue---

Order! Do not answer your own question. You have already sought the necessary clarifications.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the last clarification on what the Senator calls one-acre rock outcrop which is famously called Migingo Island, I would like to get a confirmation from this Committee because this Island has been taken over by Uganda soldiers called UPDF and they are taxing Kenyan fishermen. As the issues continue, what is the status quo? Under whose jurisdiction is this Island? When will the Ugandan soldiers stop harassing Kenyan fishermen on this Island?

Hon. Senators, if you are interested in making an intervention, please, do it under requests.

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Committee on Devolved Government visited Turkana, Mandera, Wajir, Tana River and Marsabit counties because they are border counties. They are situated in countries where there is conflict, particularly Somalia. The question the people are asking is what the policy of the Government is in involving border counties on matters of foreign affairs. What role do they play? When we went to Turkana, they are busy protecting Kenya. There are few policemen there and the Government is not discussing the boundary issue even in Kenya. The people in Turkana told us that they act as a buffer zone between Kenya and other countries. What policy should the Ministry of Foreign Affairs put in place to ensure that county governments are involved on matters of foreign relations?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, further to the clarification sought by Sen. M. Kajwang, in the year 2011, the Government of Kenya dispatched a team of surveyors to Migingo Island. Some funds were even set aside. Sen. Orengo was the Minister of Lands then. To date, we have not received a report on the outcome of the survey. The two governments had dispatched surveyors to identify the boundaries in Migingo Island. Could the Vice Chairperson undertake to bring the report so that we can know what became of it? The Senate Minority Leader (

Mr. Speaker, Sir, our successive governments have shied away from resolving border disputes. Border disputes have a potential to create conflict. However, in this country, they have always shied away from counties and national borders. I want to seek a clarification on this matter regarding Somalia, not on the maritime disputes that have gone to the United Nations, but on the border wall that is reportedly under construction.

We have been informed that the construction of the wall between Somalia and Kenya in Mandera Town was stopped after the construction started because the Somali Government raised a complaint about the border. Could the Vice Chairperson clarify that the construction of that security wall has been stopped because of the dispute on the border between Kenya and Somalia? Could she explain the reason for the stoppage of the construction of the wall?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sought the Floor earlier under a point of intervention. I want to comment about the students that are in the gallery and not specifically on this Statement. I welcome them, especially because they are boys. As you know, we are dealing with a crisis of illicit brews and other vices in our counties, which are mostly consumed by young men. I hope that they will learn from the great men and women in this House to be of great and positive impact to the ones that they have left behind and their respective communities.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the reasons I opposed the then Constitution draft in the Tenth Parliament was because of the absence of an annex of the true map of Kenya showing boundaries and beacons as put forward by Sen. Wetangula. Is the Government ready to join Okoa Kenya and make that amendment in the Constitution?

Is it true, as declared by President Museveni, that Kenya owns Migingo Island and Uganda owns the water?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am seeking clarification. We prepared our maritime boundary in accordance with the direction of the United Nations (UN) , extending our maritime jurisdiction by 2050 as allowed by the UN. Documents were lodged by Kenya at the UN, but Somalia went and removed the documents. They are now saying that what was our territory is not our territory. My question is: Is the Committee able to impress on the Government, as a matter of urgency, to first give effect to Article 5 of the Constitution by bringing legislation?

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, our successive governments have shied away from resolving border disputes. Border disputes have a potential to create conflict. However, in this country, they have always shied away from counties and national borders. I want to seek a clarification on this matter regarding Somalia, not on the maritime disputes that have gone to the United Nations, but on the border wall that is reportedly under construction.

We have been informed that the construction of the wall between Somalia and Kenya in Mandera Town was stopped after the construction started because the Somali Government raised a complaint about the border. Could the Vice Chairperson clarify that the construction of that security wall has been stopped because of the dispute on the border between Kenya and Somalia? Could she explain the reason for the stoppage of the construction of the wall?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sought the Floor earlier under a point of intervention. I want to comment about the students that are in the gallery and not specifically on this Statement. I welcome them, especially because they are boys. As you know, we are dealing with a crisis of illicit brews and other vices in our counties, which are mostly consumed by young men. I hope that they will learn from the great men and women in this House to be of great and positive impact to the ones that they have left behind and their respective communities.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the reasons I opposed the then Constitution draft in the Tenth Parliament was because of the absence of an annex of the true map of Kenya showing boundaries and beacons as put forward by Sen. Wetangula. Is the Government ready to join Okoa Kenya and make that amendment in the Constitution?

Is it true, as declared by President Museveni, that Kenya owns Migingo Island and Uganda owns the water?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a very important matter to the Government. As I have said earlier, I wish to inform the House that the government is serious in terms of dealing with boundary disputes. I read in the statement that there is an office that is established to look at these particular issues.

Pertaining to the Migingo Island, let me inform this House that two weeks ago, we had a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary for Foreign Affairs and International Trade to discuss the Petition before the Committee on Migingo Island and the challenges faced by fishermen around Migingo and Busia.

We were informed that Kenya is ready to implement the decisions that were made then. Unfortunately, Uganda did not have the finances to carry out the survey and

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Vice Chairperson did not respond to the clarification that I sought.

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I thought that is what I heard from the Vice Chairperson. So, Sen. Munyes and Sen. Billow, you need to be listening to her when she is talking.

Sen. Adan, in one week’s time, you will come back to the House and give us the necessary responses.

Hon. Senators, we will conclude that particular business. It is Wednesday afternoon. As we agreed, it is time for voting. We will take Order No.8 after Order No.11. We will now go into the Committee of the Whole to take Division on Orders No.9, 10 and 11. There are very minor amendments. So, let us dispose of that business.

Next Order!

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

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July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I concur.

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES ABSTENTIONS: Nil

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

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We will now go to Division, to vote for Clauses 2, 3, 4 as amended, 5, Title and Clause 1.

- THAT, clause 4 of the Bill be amended in the proposed new clause 12B by– (a) deleting paragraph (c) appearing in sub-clause (2) ;

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, the reason is that we included one Member of the National Assembly in the composition of the Senate Service Committee. This being a Senate Service Committee, a Member of the National Assembly has no business sitting in the Committee. So, the amendment is to remove the Member of the National Assembly from the Senate Committee. (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

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You may start voting now.

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We will now go to Division, to vote for Clauses 2, 3, 4 as amended, 5, Title and Clause 1.

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

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Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the Senate its consideration of the National Government Coordination (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.30 of 2014) and its approval thereof without amendments. (Question proposed) (Question put and agreed to) The Temporary Chairperson (

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Senate do agree with the Committee on the said report.

Sen. Wetangula seconded.

Order No.10, the National Drought Management Authority Bill (National Assembly Bill No.42 of 2013) . Proceed, Senate Majority Leader.

Hon. Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the Senate its consideration of the National Drought Management Authority Bill (National Assembly Bill No.42 of 2013) and its approval thereof with amendments. (Question proposed) (Question put and agreed to) The Temporary Chairperson (

Mover, who was seconding?

Next is Order No.11, the Parliamentary Service (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.21 of 2014) . Proceed, Sen. Murungi

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the Senate its consideration of the Parliamentary Service (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.21 of 2014) and its approval thereof with amendments. (Question proposed) (Question put and agreed to) The Temporary Chairperson (

Division on this will come later.

You can open the doors, but remember that we have one Division to go. Sorry, draw the bars. (The House resumed)

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered The National Drought Management Authority Bill (National Assembly Bill No.42 of 2013) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered the National Government Coordination (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.30 of 2014) and its approval thereof without amendments.

I call upon the Mover to move.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered The Parliamentary Service (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.21 of 2014) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, could you request these two Senators to sit down?

Please, take your seats.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Senate do agree with the Committee in the said Report.

Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki seconded.

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Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Parliamentary Service (Amendment) Bill, Senate Bill No.21 of 2014 to now read a Third Time.

Sen. Murkomen seconded.

We shall now go to Division and I order the Division Bell be rung for one minute and then we shall vote for all the Bills.

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES THE DROUGHT MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY BILL (NATIONAL ASSEMBLY BILL NO.42 OF 2013)

The Chairperson for the Drought Management Authority Bill (National Assembly Bill No.42 of 2013) , please, report.

Bw. Spika wa Muda, nasikitika sana kwani hata baada ya Bunge letu kutumia pesa nyingi kutuwekea mitambo hii, hiki kitu changu kimekataa kufanya kazi. Nafinya lakini hakifanyi kazi.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the National Drought Management Authority Bill (National Assembly Bill No.42 of 2013 be now read a Third Time.

I request Sen. Obure to second. Sen. Obure seconded.

Order, Sen. Murkomen, already Sen. Madzayo is on a point of order.

Hoja ya nidhamu, Bw. Naibu Spika. Nataka kuuliza kitu kimoja, nimemsikia Seneta wa Vihiga akisema kwamba “kitu chake” hakifanyi kazi. Tunataka afafanue zaidi ni kitu gani kilicho mbele yake hivi sasa ambacho hakifanyi kazi.

Nafikiri Sen. Khaniri aliweza

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Senate do agree with the Committee in the said Report.

Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki seconded.

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

I never saw that, Sen. Murkomen. Is there anyone who has not voted? Please, come and be assisted.

Since the Division is over, the bar can be undrawn.

Sen. Khaniri, ni kitu gani chako hakifanyi?

Bw. Spika wa Muda, nasikitika sana kwani hata baada ya Bunge letu kutumia pesa nyingi kutuwekea mitambo hii, hiki kitu changu kimekataa kufanya kazi. Nafinya lakini hakifanyi kazi.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hoja ya nidhamu, Bw. Naibu Spika. Nataka kuuliza kitu kimoja, nimemsikia Seneta wa Vihiga akisema kwamba “kitu chake” hakifanyi kazi. Tunataka afafanue zaidi ni kitu gani kilicho mbele yake hivi sasa ambacho hakifanyi kazi.

The results of the Division are as follows:-

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Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, did you notice that when Sen. Khaniri was saying “kitu changu hakifanyi”, he was pointing somewhere around his legs?

I never saw that, Sen. Murkomen. Is there anyone who has not voted? Please, come and be assisted.

Since the Division is over, the bar can be undrawn.

Not until the results are announced

Okay. Let us wait for results to be announced before the bar can be undrawn.

The results of the Division are as follows:-

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July 8th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute. I stand to support this Bill.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is a very important Bill. As we all know, we came up with the new Constitution a few years ago. That was in 2010. Prior to that, we had the central Government and the local authorities. Local authorities had retirement schemes which included LAPTRUSTt and LAPFUND. The LAPTRUST was meant for senior officers while LAPFUND was for the junior ones. The new Constitution came with the devolved units called counties.

Owing to the new Constitution, many of the staff who served in the local authorities were absorbed by county governments. The important question arose as to

Let us move to next Order. We are rearranging the Order Paper to move to Order No.13.

Please, proceed the Senate Majority Leader (Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki)

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Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I beg to move that the County Retirement Scheme Bill (Senate Bill No.25 of 2014) be now read a Second Time.

I will be very brief because this Bill is very short and its purpose is straight forward. I will not belabour so much for that purpose. This Bill intends to create a pension scheme for county government workers. This Bill has been before the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare.

The Speaker submitted the Bill to the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare on 6th August, 2014, approximately one year ago. The reason why this has been the case is that both the Committee and I, as the sponsor of the Bill, have been engaging with various stakeholders for consultation as much as possible in order to get the widest consensus within the stakeholders.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, during that one year – the Chairperson of the Committee can bear me witness and I will request him to Second the Bill later – the Committee and I consulted very many stakeholders including the National Treasury, the Pensions Department, the Council of Governors (CoG) and the Retirement Benefits Authority (RBA) which is the regulator on matters of pension in this country. Others who were consulted were the existing pension and social security arrangements for workers who used to serve in the defunct local authorities which are mainly two schemes; LAPTRUST and the LAPFUND. LAPTRUST is established by the Legal Notice of 2007 and LAPFUND under an Act of Parliament namely, the Local Authorities Provident Fund Act, Cap. 272 of the laws of Kenya.

The Committee and I have also consulted the Transition Authority (TA) , the Salaries and Remuneration Commission (SRC) , the Council of Governors (CoG) , the Commission for the Implementation of the Constitution (CIC) , the County Public Boards Forum (CPBF) of all counties as well as the Kenya County Governments Workers’ Union (KCGWU) , which is the trade union that represents the existing workers of county governments.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as we speak – I am sure the Chairperson will elaborate on this – we are almost reaching an agreement although there are a few outstanding issues. I have been informed by the Chairperson of the Committee that there will be a final push on 23rd July, 2015, to bring all the stakeholders together to try and reach an agreement before the Bill goes into the Committee of the Whole to be read a Third Time.

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Asante sana, Bw. Spika wa Muda. Kwanza ningetaka kuunga mkono Mswada huu wa kaunti hasa unapohusika na wafanyikazi waliostaafu wa kaunti zote 47 katika nchi ya Kenya.

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On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I had placed my request to contribute to the Bill.

Yes, I can see it. Please go on.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute. I stand to support this Bill.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is a very important Bill. As we all know, we came up with the new Constitution a few years ago. That was in 2010. Prior to that, we had the central Government and the local authorities. Local authorities had retirement schemes which included LAPTRUSTt and LAPFUND. The LAPTRUST was meant for senior officers while LAPFUND was for the junior ones. The new Constitution came with the devolved units called counties.

Owing to the new Constitution, many of the staff who served in the local authorities were absorbed by county governments. The important question arose as to

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Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance to also support this important Bill. From the outset, I would like to congratulate the Mover and seconder of this Bill for having brought, perhaps, the most important Bill that this House has ever discussed. It is only unfortunate that many distinguished Senators are not present in this House to make their contributions.

That notwithstanding, this Bill meets the relevant and requisite provisions with regard to the Retirement Benefits Scheme. I note that the Bill provides for the establishment of a board of trustees which is going to manage this scheme. The list of board of trustees includes something that is very important, which we have been omitting in the past. Some of the members of the board of trustees will be men and women of integrity, who have qualifications including actuarial science and have been administrators of schemes. This is a very good proviso. I hope to bring an amendment to the effect that amongst the board of trustees, we should also include a representative of

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Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to contribute to this Bill. I would like to thank and congratulate the Committee that has worked tirelessly to get us to where we are. It has not been an easy matter to move to this level. Two of the institutions that this Bill proposes to merge, have engaged in some media activism to ensure that the Senate does not get into these matters.

We need to build a saving culture in this nation. I have spent about 14 years in the financial services sector, which includes insurance. Some of the problems that we have in this country as far as insurance and retirement schemes and benefits penetration are concerned stem from our savings culture. Sometimes I get troubled when I see employees

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Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing me to contribute to this very important Bill. First, I want to thank the sponsor of the Bill for coming up with it at this time when we are trying to establish counties. It is very important that employees of any institution have a pension scheme that is predictable, reliable and which makes economic sense. I know that we have 47 counties which are distinct in their own way but if each is allowed to have its own pension scheme, then it may not make economic sense. It is important that we have one pension scheme to cater for county employees. We know that the former county councils had some schemes and because of tradition, there is a tendency for people to prefer to remain where they are, forgetting that situations can be made better.

The institution that will be created out of this Bill should be one that is attractive to employees because, basically, pension schemes are supposed to benefit employees more than the employer. When employees are happy, the employer gets proper service. I believe and hope that after doing all the necessary panel beating, amendments and so on, this scheme should be better than all the other schemes that may have been there.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, counties are public institutions and although they are different from the national government, it is a fact that most of the employees who are in the county government, came from the national Government. Therefore, the pension scheme of that nature should be flexible enough to allow staff to move from the national Government to the county governments and vice versa. If the members of staff feel that

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Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to contribute to this Bill. First and foremost, I wish to congratulate the Mover of the Bill because he has tabled a very important Bill that not only ensures that devolution succeeds, but also confirms that we are truly the big brother of the counties.

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I now call upon the Mover to reply.

Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I take this opportunity to appreciate and thank my colleagues for the very wonderful and rich discussion on this very important Bill. I thank each of them in person. I have listened to every speaker even when I was not in the Chamber, I followed Sen. M. Kajwang, Sen. Ndiema, Sen. Madzayo, Sen. Sijeny, Sen. Ong’era and Sen. Karaba. I am very impressed with the suggestions that have been made.

I thank the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare headed by Sen. Madzayo. I know there has been a lot of push and pull over this Bill but they have stood firm. I look forward to consensus building when the Committee convenes during their retreat in the next two weeks and dispose OF this matter, hopefully, before we go on recess.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as I said, issues of county pensions are not issues that you want to have a lacuna in law for a very long time. People can take advantage of

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Well done, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No. 54 (3) and note that we are very few in the Chamber at this time. Pursuant to that Standing Order, I request that you consider deferring the putting of the Question until tomorrow.

Your request has been heard and I defer putting the Question to Wednesday, 15th July, 2015 when we hope to have the numbers.

Next Order! Second Readings

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Hon. Senators, it is now time to interrupt the business of the Senate. The Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday 9th July, 2015 at 2.30 p.m.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.