THE PARLIAMENT OF KENYA

Serjeant-at- Arms, kindly ring the Quorum Bell for 10 minutes.

Hon. Senators, we now have quorum. Please, settle down for the business of the day.

Clerk, you may proceed to call the first Order.

PAPERS LAID

REPORTS OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL ON FINANCIAL STATEMENTS OF VARIOUS ENTITIES FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30TH JUNE, 2024

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Machakos County Bursary Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of the County Executive of Lamu for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of the County Assembly of Lamu for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 1

Services, Senate.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of the County Revenue Fund County Government of Lamu for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of the Receiver of Revenue - Revenue Statements - County Government of Lamu for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of the County Assembly of Lamu Car Loan and Mortgage Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Executive Staff Housing Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Emergency Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Youth Development Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Bursary and Scholarship Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Disability Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Gender and Social Development Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Fisheries Development Agency for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Climate Change Fund for fourteen (14) months ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Municipality of Lamu for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu County Referral Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Lamu for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Faza Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Lamu for the Six (6) months period ended 30th June,

Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Lamu for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Lamu Water & Sewerage Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of the County Executive of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of the County Assembly of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of the County Revenue Fund - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Receiver of Revenue - Revenue Statements - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Siaya County Assembly Car Loan and Mortgage Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 2

Services, Senate.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Siaya County Bursary Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Siaya County Emergency Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Siaya County Alcoholic Drinks Control Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Siaya County Referral Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Bondo Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Got Agulu Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Yala Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Madiany Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Sigomere Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Uyawi Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Ukwala Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Rwambwa Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Ambira Sub County Level 4 Hospital - County Government of Siaya for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Sibo Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor General on Financial Statements of Siaya County Climate Change Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2024.

Report of the Auditor-General of the Financial Statements of Machakos County Bursary Fund for the year ended 30th June 2024.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay.

Next Order.

QUESTIONS AND STATEMENTS

Hon. Senators, we are expecting three Cabinet Secretaries this morning. We have a total of 10 Questions and, therefore, time will be of

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 3

Services, Senate. the essence. We intend to have the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for Labour and Social Protection to start the session from 9.40 a.m. to 10.30 a.m., then from 10.30 a.m. to 11.30

CS. We will straightaway go to the Questions posed in respect to your Ministry. The Question No.11 by the Nominated Sen. Catherine Mumma. You may proceed, hon. Senator.

Question No.011

THE WELFARE OF KENYAN MIGRANT WORKERS

Sen. Mumma

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity to ask this Question and welcome Mr. CS to the Senate. I beg to ask the following Question-

Hon. CS, you may now respond. The Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection (Hon. (Dr.) Mutua) : Good morning, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Hon. Members, I reply as follows and thank you for the questions. I have provided to this House a list of all the Bilateral Labour Migration Agreements (BLMAs) . They are quite a number. Therefore, if I read them, it will take some time and I know about the constraint of time. So, I will give a summary.

That Bilateral Labour Migration Agreements are key instruments in ensuring migrant workers' rights and welfares are protected, increasing access to decent jobs in countries of destination and support realisation of the development benefits of labour migration. The BLMAs negotiated by the Ministry are right-based and aligned to the international labour standards.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 4

Services, Senate.

The Government of Kenya has signed and is implementing three agreements with the West Asian countries. This include the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia on recruitment of domestic workers, signed in 2017. The State of Qatar on recruitment of employment of workers, signed in 2012. The third agreement is with the UAE on labour cooperation, which was signed in 2018.

Additionally, the agreements have been signed with Germany in 2024, with Austria in 2024 and the UK in 2021, for healthcare professionals. Negotiations are ongoing with 10 countries and we are looking forward for a positive feedback from them. The agreements loosely reflect the principles and standards of the key international framework, including the International Labour Organization Conventions on Decent Work, Fair Recruitment and Migrant Workers Protection, as covered by ILO Convention 97 and 143.

Two, the United Nations Global Compact on Migration, which promotes safe, orderly and regular migration. Three, regional protocols such as the African Union's Migration Policy Framework, which emphasises migrant rights.

I have just summarised on the written; (b) on monitoring and enforcement mechanisms which have been established with these agreements to ensure that recruitment agencies and employers comply with the provisions of fair wages.

The Ministry has put in place the following monitoring and enforcement mechanisms to ensure that recruitment agencies and employers comply with provisions related to fair wages, humane working conditions, and access to legal recourse in cases of violation-

One is the BLMAs as explained above. The BLMAs are very clear in the rights of the Kenyans and the work needed to be done by the agency that is sending them overseas.

There is also provision of consular and attaché services to migrant workers. Since we took over, as the Kenyan Kwanza Government, have now reformed how the consulars work. We have posted labour attachés. We work with the ambassadors to make sure that Kenyans are free to go to the embassies to report any cases and ensure that everything that is attested goes through a system that complies with the law.

For example, Mr Speaker, Sir, before any person goes out of this country, the employer has to provide what is called a demand, or say that we need this person to be employed.

That demand has to be taken to the Kenyan embassy of the country where they live and they do due diligence to see whether that company exist. Does this organisation exist? Are these jobs real? When that is done, they attest and they stamp. That is sent now to Kenya; particularly to my Ministry and a national employment agency. That is where now an agency here is allowed to recruit. Therefore, we have been able to do away with fake jobs overseas by ensuring there is a system through our consular services to ensure a Kenyan goes to do a job that is existing.

Furthermore, the whole process of taking people abroad means that even before they are recruited, the Ministry has to attest their documents. If a Kenyan claim to be an engineer, we will not allow him to leave the country as an engineer if he does not have documents to show that indeed he is an engineer.

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Services, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, one cannot pretend to go there as a driver if he does not have a document to show that he is a driver. Even with hospitality, we cannot allow you to go there if you have never taken any hospitality courses. So, we make sure that those are aligned before you go.

We have set up a desk at the Jomo Kenyatta International Airport (JKIA) and other international airports. The immigration now requires anybody going for employment to be verified by that desk at the airport before they can be allowed to leave the country. This ensures that people are smuggled out of the country.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we also have monitoring and spot checks of private employer agencies and we do impromptu visits to ensure that they are not briefcase agencies.

We also have provided distress reporting tools and phone numbers to Kenyans working abroad. These phone numbers are available on our website. Any distress, you call this number and we are able to know.

There is also an oversight and community feedback mechanism where the Ministry in collaboration with International Organisation for Migration (OIM) has established this mechanism to facilitate continuous monitoring of the private employer agencies. They are now there.

We have a system where one has to go for vetting once their license expires. This is done before it is extended for another year. Documents are brought from the Attorney- General, National Intelligence Service and other offices. People are at times not allowed to continue working because they have been shown to be undertaking unscrupulous deals. Therefore, vetting is undertaken to ensure that the oversight is done well.

We also have pre-departure training and orientation. I was in Mombasa this week where we opened the Saudi House. In that house, people going overseas will be taught how to work if they will be employed as house girls. With that help, they will not put shoes in the microwave. They will also have an understanding of how to separate clothes when using the washing machine. They will also know that they should not use the dish washer to wash clothes.

We are also collaborating with governments, agencies and organisations. A good example is Germany. There is a group interested in setting up a German Hospital in Kenya to teach people how to work in a German facility before they leave to go and work there. This will reduce conflict when people go overseas. We also have capacity building of private employment agencies on ethical recruitment and it is ongoing. It is all explained there.

Part ‘c’ of the Question is on the cases of passport confiscation involving Kenyan migrant workers. The law is clear. The Kenyan law and BLMA that we sign do not allow Kenyans to have their passports confiscated. This habit has been going on for a long time in some countries. With the new international labour organisations, there countries like Kenyan, for example, have laws that prevent people from handing over their passports to their employer. The passport is their document.

We have asked them to report to the Kenyan Embassy if the employer asks them to hand over their passport to them. If I hear of any case, I call the relevant Minister in that country who then works on it.

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Services, Senate.

A country such as Saudi Arabia has set up a desk to deal with Kenyan complaints. In their Ministry of Labour, they have an officer and a unit dedicated to dealing with Kenyan issues. With that, they can move with speed when there is a complaint to ensure that their citizens are adhering to the set laws.

There is a question on breakdown of reported cases of abuse against Kenyan migrant workers from 2019 to date. We have had cases from several countries as listed there. The good thing is that the numbers are going down because of this reportage.

I was in the Middle East and I visited countries such as United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and other countries, where I met senior officers at my level. What came out is that we have to talk to Kenyans on their attitude and how to live in foreign countries. We want to protect Kenyans so that they are treated fairly.

I went to one country where a Minister told me that at one point had Kenyans, Philippines, Europeans, Indians, Americans and Canadians held in one place because they were being deported out of the country. During that time, there was a problem with internet, hence delay of one week in processing the documents. Everybody was told about the problem, but the Kenyan cohort that was there rioted, yet it was the smallest group. They caused a number of distractions. They asked me what is special about Kenyans. He said that people from other countries did not revolt. I told them that we will train our people on patience.

They also said that Kenya provides the lowest number of workers from overseas in their countries. However, if you google in social media, the highest number of people attacking their countries are from Kenya. They asked me what is wrong with Kenya. I got this complaint from six countries. They said that Kenyans are the ones who are always complaining on social media.

We are training our people and telling them that we will fight for their rights. However, they should also use the right channels to raise their complaints without ruining the chances for others. Because of the complaints, the quota for Kenyans going overseas has been reduced. They prefer Ugandans, Ethiopians and South Africans. They said that Kenyans are good workers, but they can also be big headed.

We are having attitude training to teach our young people who have grown up in an activist system that they should leave their activism nyumbani. They should go there and follow the system. If they have a problem, we will bring them back home. However, they should not go there and start maandamano in a foreign country.

We have also set up shelters for repatriation in some of these countries. I want to commend the State Department of Diaspora Affairs under the Prime Cabinet Secretary, Hon. Musalia Mudavadi. The Permanent Secretary is doing a wonderful job in terms of having safe houses and people are coming back home.

We are on top of things. I have ensured that we provide access of good employment opportunities for Kenyans. We are also providing ways of protecting our people. I want to thank the hon. Member for these good questions. The rest of the information is on the written document.

Sen. Mumma, do you have any supplementary question.

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Services, Senate.

Sen. Mumma

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have two supplementary questions. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary for that answer. The answer makes one believe that we have a perfect system in place. However, you will agree with me that two weeks do not pass before we are told of a case of a female domestic worker who is stuck on a third or fourth employer. One who does not have their passport, critically sick or dead thus help is sought from Kenyans for them to come back home. I do not think that answer has spoken to those issues.

My first supplementary question is; do we have a programme that sensitizes Kenyans on the system that you are talking about? Remember the domestic workers you are talking about possibly are not on social media. They will not go to a website to see the safeguards that you have. Do we have a sensitization programme that reaches out to the vulnerable possible migrant workers who need to know what working abroad entails?

Does the Ministry’s agreement with the agencies provide in detail the need for the agency to provide all the information you are talking about? Does it tell the worker where they can report if they have a problem? Does it tell them where the consular is and what legal aid they can get? Can this Senate be provided with copies of the agreements that you have with these agencies, including the list of the accredited agencies for recruiting for migrant workers?

I thank you.

Hon. Cabinet Secretary, proceed. The Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection

: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir and Hon. Sen. Mumma. The system is not perfect, but it is working. I can proudly say that within the last three months we have not had any reported cases of people getting their passports confiscated or dying out of what you may call abuse or distress in these foreign countries.

Kenyans are now empowered. They now reach their embassies and our attaches are able to deal with those issues before they escalate. We also have issues where people go to countries for a particular job and then they quit and become runaways. They are out of status. In the United States of America (USA) they are called illegal immigrants. This is because they went to work somewhere, but they quit and are now out in the streets.

We have had cases where those people get into trouble. We are trying as much as possible to get them back into the system, but they need to come back home. We have a number of Kenyans who talk about distress, but they do not want to come back home. They still want to do their chini chini manenos over there, yet they are out of status and are illegal in some of these countries.

I would also like to report here that we have quite a number of Kenyans in some foreign countries who have given birth to children. The children are still with them, but we are trying to get them back here. For the children to come back, the mother needs to come back too because we require a Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) test to match theirs. We have realised that some children are given to somebody na mtu anaambiwa ampeleke kwa mama yake. The child is not yours and you also do not want to be accused of child trafficking.

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Services, Senate.

The second question was on sensitization. We are about to embark on a nationwide communication programme, which was halted because we did not have enough budget to undertake it. I will be going across the country holding meetings with communities, chiefs and elders, so that they understand what happens when their children go overseas to get employment.

In addition to that, before they leave the country, all these employees are taken through sensitization. They are sensitized about their rights. Given the right documents and taken through process of reporting to the nearest embassy. Those documents are given to them with proper orientation, which they have to undertake.

The agencies have also been told that before anybody goes overseas, all their boxes have to be ticked, including that of orientation. They are obeying. Since I came in, I have indicated that if you do not obey, then you are de-registered. We will provide this House a list of the agreements and all other documents that have been requested.

I submit.

Proceed, Sen. Miraj.

Asante, Bw. Spika. Swali langu kwa Waziri ni kuhusu dada zetu walio huko nje. Kuna mikakati gani ya kufanya operationalisation of the Welfare Fund ili kuwaruhusu dada zetu baada ya kufanya zile DNA---

Sen. Miraj, you need to choose which language to use. You either go for Kiswahili or English, but do not mix the two.

Kiswahili.

Proceed.

Asante, Bw. Spika. Swali langu kwa Waziri ni kuhusu dada zetu na changamoto wanazozipata ughaibuni wanapofanya kazi. Je, kuna mikakati gani ya uendeshaji wa hazina ya fedha ya kuwasaidia wanapokuwa kule nje? Nina imani kuna juhudi na jitihada nyingi ambazo Wizara imesaidia kwa kuwafanyia ile DNA test. Lakini kuna changamoto ya kifedha wanapopata zile birth certificates ambazo wanapewa.

Je, kama Wizara kuna mikakati gani imewekwa kuona kwamba hazina hii inafanya kazi na kuwasaidia hawa dada zetu kule ughaibuni?

Asante.

Proceed, Sen. Onyonka. Hon. Cabinet Secretary kindly note down the questions, so that you can respond to them after.

Sen. Onyonka

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just heard the Cabinet Secretary comment that when he sees Kenyans demonstrating whether it is in Saudi Arabia, he thinks they are talking about mapambano. I want to remind him that our Constitution allows Kenyans---

Hon. Sen. Onyonka, do not offer speeches; ask your question as per our Standing Orders.

Sen. Onyonka

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was laying the preamble.

No. Go straight to the question. What is your question, Senator?

Sen. Onyonka

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I cannot ask the question if I cannot set up the preamble. So, I rest.

The Speaker (Hon. Kingi)

Good. Sen. Mungatana, MGH.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 9

The Speaker (Hon. Kingi)

Services, Senate.

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Asante, Bw. Spika. Bw. Waziri, mimi na Wakenya walio na nia njema tunakushukuru kwa sababu ya kazi unayoifanya. Yangu ni malamishi machache na ndiposa nina swali la kukuuliza. Umetenga siku ambazo utakuwa unazuru kaunti tofauti tofauti na pia unahitaji watu wa kuajiriwa kazi ughaibuni. Hata hivyo, kaunti ambazo umezuru na kufanya kazi zina vijiji vikubwa. Kuna kaunti zilizo mbali na wananchi wanachukua muda mrefu kufika vijijini, kwa mfano, Tana River na zinginezo.

Kwa nini hujaweka mpangilio wa kutangaza siku ya kuzuru kule kuwaandikisha vijana na watu wanaotaka kufanya kazi---

Sen. Mungatana, MGH, kindly. What is your point of order, Sen. Madzayo? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) : Bw. Spika, kwa heshima na taadhima umemnyamazisha ndugu yangu Sen. Onyonka kwa sababu alikuwa anaeleza kabla hajauliza swali lake. Lakini naona mkondo huo unafwatwa na ndugu yangu Sen. Mungatana na humsimamishi kama ulivyomsimamisha Sen. Onyonka.

Ningetaka kujua ni kwa sababu gani pengine umechukua uamuzi kama huo.

Sen. Madzayo) :

Senator, is your point of order directed to the Chair or Sen. Mungatana?

The Senate Minority Leader

(Sen. Madzayo)

: Sen. Mungatana, MGH.

Bw. Spika, kwa heshima na taadhima umemnyamazisha ndugu yangu Sen. Onyonka kwa sababu alikuwa anaeleza kabla hajauliza swali lake. Lakini naona mkondo huo unafwatwa na ndugu yangu Sen. Mungatana na humsimamishi kama ulivyomsimamisha Sen. Onyonka. (Applause) Ningetaka kujua ni kwa sababu gani pengine umechukua uamuzi kama huo.

Senator, is your point of order directed to the Chair or Sen. Mungatana? The Senate Minority Leader (

Sen. Madzayo) :

Sen. Wafula, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Mr. Cabinet Secretary, your team was in Bungoma County sometime back in a public institution to recruit young people to go to the diaspora to work. I have received their calls and they are travelling to Nairobi City County, so that they can be facilitated to get the Social Health Authority (SHA) to enable them to travel abroad.

What is the contract between the SHA or any other insurance towards these young people going outside the country to work?

I thank you.

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Sen. Wambua, proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to seek clarification from the Cabinet Secretary. When he stood to respond to the questions, he profiled Kenyans as big-headed activists, people who take maandamano abroad, and who generally have bad manners. Is

Sen. Wafula

What is the contract between the SHA or any other insurance towards these young people going outside the country to work?

I thank you.

Sen. Wambua, proceed.

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Sen. Joe Nyutu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My question is very brief. The jobs in Saudi Arabia have more challenges than those in Western countries. What arrangements has the Cabinet Secretary put in place to see to it that when jobs arise from Western countries, which are more lucrative, that they are evenly distributed across the country?

I ask this because there are rumours out there that jobs in Europe and Canada are reserved for some areas in this country. Exactly what does the Cabinet Secretary do to see to it that any available job opportunities abroad are distributed evenly across the country?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Osotsi.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This matter of immigrant workers to the Middle East has been an issue that has come to the two Houses many times. Every

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Osotsi.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This matter of immigrant workers to the Middle East has been an issue that has come to the two Houses many times. Every

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 11

Sen. Wakili Sigei.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I noticed that in the forwarding letter to this response, I want to correct this because Sen. Mumma, who is a Member of your Panel, is not Beatrice Muna. May the Cabinet Secretary correct that spelling to make reference to specific names. Yes, the letter refers to Catherine Muna, which is a misrepresentation.

My question to him is on his response to the fact that the Ministry has posted labour attachés to a number of our missions abroad. I would like to get specifics or a confirmation that these labour attachés are in all our missions. If not, which are those missions without labour attachés? How do they deal with issues like what Sen. Osotsi has raised in instances where we do not have labour attachés in our missions abroad?

Thank you.

Sen. Madzayo? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) : Asante Mstahiki Spika. Swali langu kwa Waziri ni hili. Mwanzoni wa mwaka huu, kuna mama anayeitwa Maureen Yaa Nyadzua. Aliondoka Kenya kama nurse kwenda kufanya huko Saudi Arabia. Hatimaye ikatokea kwamba ilikuwa lazima afanye hiyo kazi yake ya nurse ndani ya nyumba. Hivi

Sen. Wakili Sigei.

Sen. Wakili Sigei

Thank you.

Sen. Madzayo? The Senate Minority Leader (

Sen. Madzayo) :

Services, Senate.

Sen. Wakoli, you talked about the team in Bungoma. I am not conversant with that process. What I know is that before people go overseas, they have to undertake medical tests. The tests can be quite expensive. It means x-rays for your chest, looking for Tuberculosis (TB), blood, infections and so on. I believe that the move for people to register for SHA, is so that when they go for medicals, part of that medical fee is covered already by their registration. Nevertheless, I will follow up to find out why it is happening that way.

Sen.Wambua, I would like to just clarify that I never said that Kenyans are big- headed activists. I was reporting what they told me. It is the spirit of Kenyans that makes us great. We are people who are very well-educated, liberal and democratic. We know our rights and we fight for them. That is very good spirit and that is what makes us a great nation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we need to bridge between our rights, information and ability to speak our voices with how to do it. The issue is not what to do, but it is how we are doing it. When you go to a foreign country that may not have the democratic rights like we do in our country, you need to understand how to navigate the aspects of those countries.

Undoubtedly, in countries with democratic rights, everybody frowns upon a foreigner coming to shout in their country. If we had foreigners in our country who are employed here demonstrating in the streets of Nairobi, you will see Kenyans saying, warudi kwao, kwani hao ni nani wanakuja kutupigia kelele hapa kwetu? It is a matter of just teaching Kenyans how to seek redress without appearing to be a thorn in the flesh in these countries. Since when you travel to another country, you are a visitor.

The overlying principle is if you are dissatisfied with where you are and you no longer want to be there, you can leave that country. Nobody will stop you from leaving that country and coming back home. Come back to your country. However, if you wish to stay there, then you may have to adhere.

I have lived overseas. I lived in Australia, USA and even lived and worked in Dubai. There are principles that you have to adhere to in Dubai. If they tell you do not go around shaking hands or hugging women, you do not do it because that is their principles. If you feel like your rights for hugging is being embedded upon, come back home. Come and hug the ones in Kenya. Do not cross the border because there are religious factors and other factors in different countries.

We are doing civic education, so that we teach our young people how to adapt to these cultures. Cultural knowledge is very important even in a country like Japan. If you go there, there are some ways you can cross your legs and insult a whole village. Thus, we are teaching them how to really behave in some countries.

The Senate Majority Leader asked about the system. Before I joined the Ministry, a decision was made that instead of a new system, we are upgrading the National Employment Integration System under the National Employment Authority (NEA), with a grant of Kshs400 million from International Labour Organization (ILO). When this is upgraded, it will have all this information that is there.

Currently, as I speak, the NEA website has all the information about the valid recruitment agencies. Mtu akisema anataka kukupeleka ng’ambo, you just go and check if they are valid. If that person is in that agency, their names and if they are following the

Asante Mstahiki Spika. Swali langu kwa Waziri ni hili. Mwanzoni wa mwaka huu, kuna mama anayeitwa Maureen Yaa Nyadzua. Aliondoka Kenya kama nurse kwenda kufanya huko Saudi Arabia. Hatimaye ikatokea kwamba ilikuwa lazima afanye hiyo kazi yake ya nurse ndani ya nyumba. Hivi

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Services, Senate. sasa huyo mama ni mgonjwa sana. Ana presha na magonjwa tofauti tofauti yanayolazimu aidha apelekwe hospitali na akipona aweze kurudi nyumbani.

Mama huyo anatoka Baraka Chembe huko eneo la Kaunti ya Kilifi. Kuna agency inaitwa Lahaza Agency iliyompeleka huko. Sasa akiwa na haja ya kuwafikia wale agents wake hawezi. Ni mgonjwa sana na kuna hatari anaweza kufariki.

Bw. Waziri, je, unaelewa kwamba huyu mama yuko hali mahututi na hivi sasa anatakikana kurudi nyumbani? Hilo ndilo swali la kwanza.

Swali la pili, je, hii Lalazar ama Hahazar Agency inaruhusiwa na Wizara yako kupeleka Wakenya kule Saudi Arabia kufanya kazi?

Niko na jina la agent ambaye alihusika na kumchukuwa huyu mama kutoka Kilifi akampelela Saudia. Anaitwa Bw. Mohammed. Namba yake ya simu ni 0759297229. Je, huyu mtu anaruhusiwa kufanya hiyo kazi ya kupeleka watu Uarabuni?

Huyu mama sasa hivi hawezi kufanya kazi yoyote ya nyumba ama ya uuguzi. Wewe kama Waziri na Wizara yako, unachukua hatua gani kuweza kumleta huyu mama nyumbani? Vile vile umechukua hatua gani kuona ya kwamba hii kampuni ambayo ilimpeleka imewajibika kuweza kumleta huyu mama nyumbani?

Asante, Bw. Spika.

Hon. Cabinet Secretary, you may respond to that first set of questions.

The Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection

: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Nitaanza na swali la Sen. Miraj kuhusu ile hazina ya fedha. Tayari tumepanga mikakati ya kuwa na hazina ya fedha ambayo itaondoa changamoto nyingi. Hivi sasa lazima hiyo hazina ya fedha iwe imeorodheshwa kwenye sheria. Kwa hivyo, tuko Mswada wa Labour Migration, ambao tayari niliweka sahihi juzi ndiyo iweze kuletwa kwa Bunge na iweze kuchangiwa ndiyo uwe sheria. Kwa hivyo, tunatarajia kwamba itakuja mpaka hapa na tutaweza kusonga nayo.

The second question is from Sen. Mungatana. Thank you very much as that is a brilliant question. Kwa sababu Nairobi na Mombasa sio Kenya na miji mikuu sio Kenya, ni lazima tuwe na mikakati ya kuweza kuwafikia watu. Nilikuwa nimeaanza safari ya kuenda katika kila kaunti kuzungumza na ndugu na dada zetu lakini tukawa na upungufu wa hali ya fedha. Unajua kuna upungufu wa fedha kwa sababu bajeti yetu ilikatwa.

Pia kulikuwa na changamoto kidogo ya zile safari nilienda. Niliona kuna agencies na mikakati ambayo kweli lazima kwanza yalainishwe ndio tusiende tukajichimbia shimo. Kwa hivyo, hayo ni mambo ambayo naendelea kumaliza na hivi karibuni nitarejea.

Nataka kufanya kazi sana na waheshimiwa wa Seneti na wa Bunge la Kitaifa, ndiyo tuweze kushirikiana. Wakati naja mahali nawaeleza, mnapanga watu wenu na pengine hata mnawasaidia na nauli kidogo na tunaenda mahali ambapo ni karibu. Nikienda kaunti fulani, nisiende tu mahali pamoja niende recruitment kaunti nzima.

Kuna mpango ambao naangalia ambapo nitaweza kuwauliza nyinyi wenyewe mkiwa kule kijijini muweze kuwatambua wale ambao wamehitimu, ndiyo tuanzie hapo. Isikuwe ni kazi yetu tu kuja hapo. Nyinyi ni waheshimiwa ambao mmepigiwa kura na wananchi. Mnastahili kuwawakilisha na kuwasaidia.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 13

Services, Senate.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 14

Sen. Madzayo, what is your issue? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My name is Stewart Madzayo.

Hon. Cabinet Secretary, the Senator for Kilifi County is Stewart Madzayo, not otherwise.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) : The lady I have spoken about is called Maureen Nyadzua Yaa.

The Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection (Hon. (Dr.) Alfred Mutua) : Thank you, Sen. Madzayo. I had said Sen. Madzayo, and then I said the lady is called Maureen Nyadzua. That is where I had made a mistake. I know Sen. Madzayo for many years. Everybody knows you. Sorry if I misspelled your name. However, if I try to recall, I pronounced your name properly. They mixed up because I said both names following each other.

Concerning Maureen Nyadzua, ambaye ulisema ameugua katika nchi nyingine, ile mikataba tuko nayo na mtu yeyote anapoenda ng’ambo huwa zinampa full medical care. Kwa mfano, ukienda Saudi Arabia, uko na full medical care. Tumeona Wakenya wameugua sana huko na wanapelekwa the Royal Hospital na kutibiwa hata wakiwa ndani ya Intensive Care Unit (ICU) mpaka wanapona. It is fully covered.

Pia kandarasi wanayojaza iko na return ticket. Sio lazima arudishwe na yule aliyempeleka. Kuna return tickets as part of the agreement. Ukimaliza kazi ama ukikosa kazi ama ukiugua, kuna return ticket imepeanwa na aliyekuajiri uweze kurejea nyumbani ikiwa bado unamfanyia huyo kazi.

Sen. Osotsi, you cannot pose a point of order against the Cabinet Secretary.

Proceed, Hon. Cabinet Secretary.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 15

Hon. Cabinet Secretary, just go straight to Sen. Madzayo's question. If you are not aware of the circumstances of Maureen Nyadzua, you may plead to bring up a more comprehensive response. That is the general principles under which a Cabinet Secretary operates. If you are not aware of the details, you may seek time so that you give us a more detailed and comprehensive response regarding this particular lady that the Hon. Senator has talked about.

The Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection (Hon. (Dr.) Alfred Mutua) : I am well guided, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I will find out about the case of Maureen Nyadzua and Mr. Mohammed. I want to clarify that if she was still working for the same employer, then she should be getting medical care. We will investigate why that is not so and give a comprehensive answer to this House.

I submit, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

We have a second Question directed to the same Ministry by the Hon. Sen. James Murango.

Sen. Madzayo) :

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am standing in for him.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My name is Stewart Madzayo.

Hon. Cabinet Secretary, the Senator for Kilifi County is Stewart Madzayo, not otherwise. The Senate Minority Leader (

Sen. Madzayo) :

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am standing in for Sen. James Murango of Kirinyaga County. These are the Questions that he has for the Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection-

The lady I have spoken about is called Maureen Nyadzua Yaa. The Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection (Hon. (Dr.) Alfred Mutua) : Thank you, Sen. Madzayo. I had said Sen. Madzayo, and then I said the lady is called Maureen Nyadzua. That is where I had made a mistake. I know Sen. Madzayo for many years. Everybody knows you. Sorry if I misspelled your name. However, if I try to recall, I pronounced your name properly. They mixed up because I said both names following each other. Concerning Maureen Nyadzua, ambaye ulisema ameugua katika nchi nyingine, ile mikataba tuko nayo na mtu yeyote anapoenda ng’ambo huwa zinampa full medical care. Kwa mfano, ukienda Saudi Arabia, uko na full medical care. Tumeona Wakenya wameugua sana huko na wanapelekwa the Royal Hospital na kutibiwa hata wakiwa ndani ya Intensive Care Unit (ICU) mpaka wanapona. It is fully covered. Pia kandarasi wanayojaza iko na return ticket. Sio lazima arudishwe na yule aliyempeleka. Kuna return tickets as part of the agreement. Ukimaliza kazi ama ukikosa kazi ama ukiugua, kuna return ticket imepeanwa na aliyekuajiri uweze kurejea nyumbani ikiwa bado unamfanyia huyo kazi.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 16

Services, Senate.

Sijui hali ya Maureen, nitachunguza. Lakini kwa ujumla unakuta ya kwamba umepewa kazi na mtu fulani, halafu wewe unatoroka hiyo kazi na kuenda kufanya mambo mengine---

I submit, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Services, Senate. training, skill development in a Technical and Vocational Education and Training (TVET), or we take you through rehabilitation, you are open to competing for any overseas job that is there. We will try as much as possible to ensure that street children get a livelihood by having a programme whereby they are considered first in terms of overseas jobs.

By linking rehabilitative beneficiaries to potential workers, we are trying to ensure that they also have a way to continue.

Lastly, as the Ministry, we continue to lobby Parliament, particularly through the Social Protection Committees, to allocate sufficient funds to enable the Ministry to implement vital and effective programmes aimed at securing the welfare of street children.

I have had meetings with my people and we are reworking the rehabilitation and identification of street families. Some of the street families we see in our country are foreigners from foreign nations who have come to Kenya because Kenya is an economic giant in the region. We are working on that, so that we can send them back home to their countries and also get the ones that are here taken back to the countryside where they come from and also taken to school as part of the rehabilitation.

I submit, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Yes, Sen. Joe Nyutu, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have listened to the Cabinet Secretary's response, but I want a little more information, especially on question number one. He has submitted that the increase in the number of street families in Kirinyaga County and indeed in the whole country is because most of them are foreigners.

Could he provide us with the details? Profile the locals against foreigners so that we can know how many street families are locals and how many are foreigners. Every foreigner that comes to this country is not supposed to be here illegally. What is the responsibility of the Ministry on street families who are foreigners? These foreigners are here legally. So, what is the responsibility of the Ministry of Labour and Social Protection, especially under Social Protection?

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

INCREASED NUMBER OF STREET CHILDREN ACROSS KIRINYAGA COUNTY

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am standing in for Sen. James Murango of Kirinyaga County. These are the Questions that he has for the Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection-

Services, Senate. how they came here. Do they have documents? What they are doing in our streets and how we can send them back to their countries?

I submit, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 17

Services, Senate.

In other words, some of these people in those areas are not Kenyans. They come and undertake menial jobs like pulling carts and carrying other market wares from one place to the other for some meagre pay. Others are Kenyans that have been attracted to those areas to go and undertake that work and not necessarily from Kirinyaga County.

Socio-economic conditions that the country has been experiencing for some years has led to an increase in the number of vulnerable people and families who live in the streets in a bid to earn a livelihood. These vulnerable persons usually result to begging for food and other forms of assistance in the streets. This number started rising as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, which left many households displaced due to loss of income, majority of who sought refuge in the streets.

The second question on programmes for rescue and rehabilitation, street Families Rehabilitation Trust Fund developed a national policy on rehabilitation of street families. The policy provides guidelines on implementation of programmes, which include prevention of more persons going to the streets, rescue, rehabilitation, reintegration and resocialization. This will ensure that the programmes are effectively implemented in all urban areas, including Kirinyaga County.

The Trust Fund is establishing Street Families Rehabilitation County Chapters, which are structures that coordinate rehabilitation of street families at the county and other lower levels. Kirinyaga County level is scheduled to be operationalised in the current financial year.

In the third week of February 25, the trust's implementing partners operating in Kirinyaga and Murang’a counties in conjunction with the Director of Children's Services in Mwea Sub-County rescued a total of 14 boys working on the streets of Ngurubani, who have now been placed in rehabilitation centre in Murang’a for further assessment and placement. The business community is normally involved in such rescue missions as a way of sensitising them on the plight of street families.

Upon rehabilitation, the beneficiaries are integrated back into society after being provided with economic empowerment strategies to ensure they sustainably settle within their community. They are also linked to relevant services and integration.

I have listed some of the things that we are doing for Kirinyaga County. The last question is what the Government is doing to support street families in accessing formal education, obtaining Identity Cards (ID), and securing jobs outside the country. The Government, through the Ministry of Labour and Social Protection, has developed the following strategies to assist and ensure the welfare of street families.

One is the rescue aspect, the process of identifying, assessing and helping persons out of street situations for eventual rehabilitation, reintegration and resocialization for better living.

Two is rehabilitation. This is where you restore their human dignity and privileges so that they also understand and through counselling, how they can actually fit back into society? Upon rescue, beneficiaries undergo an assessment to determine suitable placement within the education system so that children can go back to school.

The ones who are over 18 years old are given their ID cards and internship opportunities are provided for those who have been trained. Any person with a skill, because the idea is if you are a street child, you are over 18. You have gone through

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 18

Sen. Kavindu Muthama, you are not supposed to answer any questions. You are supposed to ask them.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not answering.

Sen. Kavindu Muthama, take your seat. Sen. James Murango has asked the main question through Senator Joe Nyutu. Your supplementary question must flow from that particular question. Anything outside that main question will be deemed not to be a supplementary question and, therefore, disallowed.

Proceed, Sen. Kavindu Muthama.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sir, my question concerns the questions Sen. (Dr.) Murango asked, which the Cabinet Secretary answered well. However, in case the recommendations are not made while he is still in that Ministry, what measures do they put in place to ensure that the next Cabinet Secretary follows up and implements them? This is similar to the questions we had asked him from the former Ministries where he was and have not been answered to date.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 19

Services, Senate. how they came here. Do they have documents? What they are doing in our streets and how we can send them back to their countries?

I submit, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Services, Senate.

Sen. Kavindu Muthama

Sen. Mariam Omar, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity. My supplementary question is the first question that was asked. Could I continue?

Sen. Kavindu Muthama

No, you may not continue. Just take your seat. Senator Cherarkey is not in. Sen. Murgor, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have a question about the attaches that they have sent to Saudi Arabia, particularly.

Sen. Kavindu Muthama

Sen. Murgor, your question has nothing to do with Sen. (Dr.) Murango's Question. That relates to the first question, which is now closed. Sen. Mwaruma has walked out, but Sen. Methu is not present. Sen. Osotsi, proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my concern is just that I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Cabinet Secretary in the first part of the Question. That is why I was trying to raise a point of order.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 20

Services, Senate.

Sen. Mariam Omar, proceed.

Sen. Mariam Omar

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity. My supplementary question is the first question that was asked. Could I continue?

No, you may not continue. Just take your seat. Senator Cherarkey is not in. Sen. Murgor, proceed.

Sen. Murgor

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have a question about the attaches that they have sent to Saudi Arabia, particularly.

Services, Senate.

I will align the system because I am trying to fix it and ensure that we eliminate street families so that we rehabilitate our children. We will begin by identifying why they are in the streets. Are they in the streets because they do not have homes or they are there because it is better to be there because of financial and other reasons?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I take note of the concerns about a Kenyan lady called Maureen who is ailing. I undertake that within 48 hours, I will provide this House with a letter detailing what we would have found out and we will ensure that she is assisted.

The life of any Kenyan, whether in or outside Kenya, but especially when they are outside, is critical. It does not matter where they are and how they got there; it is our responsibility to help them. I am going to communicate with my colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Foreign and Diaspora Affairs, to ensure that we move with speed to find what is happening and assist Maureen.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your indulgence, I will deal with both issues within 48 hours.

I submit.

Next is Sen. Miraj.

Asante, Bw. Spika, kwa kunipa fursa kwa mara ya pili. Ningependa kujua kama Bw. Waziri ana takwimu za watoto wanaorandaranda mitaani ambao wameongezeka. Wamekuwa watu wazima sasa na wanazaa watoto wengine ambao pia wanarandaranda kule Mjini Mombasa.

Familia hizo sasa zimeanza kuishi katika sehemu za makaburi ikiwemo Mbaraki Cemetary na kufanya kuwa makazi yao. Ningependa Bw. Waziri atueleze mikakati iliyowekwa ili kutambua watoto wanaorandaranda ama kuna kipimo gani cha Serikali kinachoweza kujua jamii zinazorandaranda wakiwemo watoto hao na familia zao?

Suala la watoto hao wanaorandaranda mitaani limeleta suitofahamu kwa sababu limechangia kuongezeka kwa utovu wa usalama katika maeneo mengine kule Mombasa. Je, ni mikakati gani iliyowekwa kutambua watoto wanaorandaranda na ni sababu gani wanaishi kule Mjini Mombasa?

Vidole vya lawama vimekuwa vikielekezwa kwa Gavana anapojaribu kushughulikia suala la watoto hao. Je, ni hatua gani ambazo zimechukuliwa kuwatambua watoto wanaorandaranda na kwa nini wameongezeka kwa asimilia 80 katika Mji wa Mombasa?

Proceed, Hon. Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection (Hon. (Dr.) Alfred Mutua) : Bw. Spika, hesabu ya watoto hao ambayo tutafanya itatupa takwimu ili kufahamu ni wangapi wanaorandaranda katika maeneo yote ya Kenya ikiwemo Mji wa Mombasa. Ni kweli kwamba wengine wamezaliwa na vile vile kuzalia hapo. Siyo ajabu kuwa wengine wana wajukuu ambao pia wanaishi barabarani. Kwa hivyo, ni jambo la kutatanisha kuona kuwa familia hizo zinaendelea kuongezeka.

Idadi hiyo ilianza kuongezeka wakati wa janga la COVID-19. Hatimaye, kumekuwa na shida hiyo kwa sababu ya upungufu wa hela. Tutachunguza kwa nini wako hapo na kama wengine wanatumia dawa za kulevya. Kwa hivyo, kuchangia katika uhalifu na ukosefu wa usalama.

Sen. Osotsi, let me assist you. Hon. Cabinet Secretary, within seven days, we need to get a detailed response to the questions by Sen. Osotsi and Sen. Madzayo, which should be filled with the Office of the Clerk.

Next is Sen. Wambua.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have heard the Cabinet Secretary talk about a national rehabilitation programme for street children. I would like him to clarify how many children are in the programme and the facility where rehabilitation is being done.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you allow me, apart from being the Senator for Kitui, I am also the principal assistant to the Senate Minority Leader. He received information as we were seated here concerning the question he had asked about Maureen. If the Cabinet Secretary can listen, that lady is said to be in a very critical condition. It may not wait for seven days.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request that you direct that the Ministry moves with speed and contacts Maureen in Saudi Arabia today and find out what help can be extended to that lady because we are actually running a risk. I just received the information from the Senate Minority Leader that the lady is doing extremely badly.

I thank you.

Hon. Cabinet Secretary, as you respond to the first limb of that question, take note of the concern about the lady who is critically ill in Saudi Arabia. Please, proceed.

The Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection (Hon. (Dr.) Alfred Mutua) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, the national rehabilitation programme is one where we work with different agencies. As a Government, we monitor to ensure that they are being rehabilitated.

As a Government, we will set up a centre in Mavoko and other places when we have funds, so that we can take our street children to some of those centres. We have a few that have been set up where some of those children are taken there, but they leave.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 21

Hon. Senators, I would like to acknowledge the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery this morning, of Dr. Geoffrey Gitau Mwangi, the National Chairman of Former Councillors. He is in the Senate to follow proceedings, particularly the response by the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning on Question No.015 by the Senator for Meru County, Sen. Kathuri Murungi, MP, in today’s Order Paper, on the delay in the implementation of the resolution of the Senate of 18th October, 2018, and the subsequent recommendations of the Inter-Agency Taskforce on payment of honorarium and monthly pension to former councillors.

Hon. Senators, the said resolution arose out of a Motion filed by the Senator for Kitui County, Sen. Enoch Wambua, CBS, MP, on payment of a one-off honorarium and monthly pension to former councillors during the Twelfth Parliament, which was passed by the Senate on 18th October, 2018.

Hon. Senators, on behalf of the Senate and on my own behalf, I extend a warm welcome to Dr. Mwangi and wish him a productive visit. I thank you.

Next is Sen. Miraj.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity to ask this Question on behalf of the former councillors who cut across the Republic of Kenya.

I thank my former colleague at the National Assembly for finding time to come to respond to the questions from Kenyans.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning the following Question No.015.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 22

Services, Senate.

Kuokoa watoto, vijana na akina mama ambao huishi kwenye barabara ni jambo ambalo tumekuwa tukiangazia. Hatutangoja hadi wakati ambao tutafanya hesabu yao. Ni mpango ambao unaendelea ambao nimetilia mkazo.

Wiki hii nilikuwa na mkutano kujadili mambo hayo kwa sababu yananikera. Sipendi kuona Wekenya wakihangaika barabarani ilhali nchi yetu ni huru. Lazima tuwapange ili warudi nyumbani na kuendelea na maisha ya heshima.

Asante sana, Bw. Spika.

Services, Senate. support the proposed one-off honoraria payment of Ksh200,000 to former councillors who served for less than 20 years.

The opinion also reference Circular No.1394 issued by the then Ministry of Local Government, which limited pension or gratuity payments to councillors who had served continuously for 20 years or more as of 13th December, 1993.

Furthermore, the legal advisory highlighted the absence of a structured formula to determine benefits given that councillors were not salaried, but received allowances that varied across different regions. Consequently, implementing the proposed payment of Ksh2,383,800,000 to about 11,919 former councillors lacks the necessary legal and policy foundation.

National Treasury has considered an alternative approach through the Inua Jamii programme which is designed as a social protection initiative for elderly citizens. Former councillors who meet the eligibility criteria form part of the persons for inclusion in the programme.

The State Department for Social Protection in collaboration with the relevant Government agencies, including the National Treasury, have been verifying eligible registrants into the programme. We shall collaborate with the State Department for social protection to identify the number of former councillors already enrolled and facilitating the registration for those who have not yet been enrolled.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in addition, the National Retirement Benefits Authority that was approved by the Cabinet in October, 2023, also aims to provide a harmonized framework for administering retirement benefits across all sectors. This policy will guide future considerations on the retirement welfare of various categories of public service workers, including former councillors, by ensuring a structured and legally sound approach to retirement benefits.

To further strengthen the legal framework, the Government established a multi- agency committee on 17th, September, 2024, to review and align public service pension schemes with Constitution of Kenya, 2010. This committee is expected to provide recommendations on how best to address pension coverage for different categories of public service workers in a sustainable and legally compliant manner.

On timelines for full gratuity payment and measures for identifying beneficiaries of deceased councillors, in light of the legal challenges, the National Treasury will engage the office of the Auditor General to conduct a forensic audit of the 328 former councillors who were initially identified as eligible for benefits. It will also verify those who are still alive and rightful beneficiaries for those who are deceased.

The findings of the audit will guide the next course of action in ensuring that only eligible former councillors or their rightful beneficiaries are considered under existing Government social protection mechanisms.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Government remains committed to addressing the welfare of former councillors within the confines of the law and available resources. While the initial recommendations for the Senate and the Task force lacked legal backing, the alternative approach through Inua Jamii coupled with the broader national retirement

COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR

PRESENCE OF DR. GEOFFREY GITAU MWANGI IN THE SPEAKER’S GALLERY

Hon. Senators, on behalf of the Senate and on my own behalf, I extend a warm welcome to Dr. Mwangi and wish him a productive visit. I thank you.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 23

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is a matter of national interest. If you could indulge us maybe you could give us a bit of time to ventilate on it.

The matter was canvassed during the last Senate. I am happy that the Member who raised is in this Fourth Senate is here. Hon. Senate Minority Leader, I wish he catches the Speaker’s ear because for sure this is a matter of national interest.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we wish you could indulge us, especially when asking supplementary questions because our former colleagues, the councillors, gave a huge input to this Republic. They laid the foundations where we step our legs on today.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your indulgence maybe the Senators who may be interested can be given some leeway to ask the right questions because those councillors have no other forum, except this Parliament; especially the Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank Dr. Mwangi for availing his time also to appear here on behalf of almost 1,500 councillors as their Chairman. You can see the interest that this matter has. I want to inform the Cabinet Secretary that the payment of these councillors was an undertaking by Hon.

Ukur Yatani who was the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning.

What we are trying to unlock today is the resolution of the Senate on the 18th of October 2018 when this matter was canvassed here. It was raised by the Senator for Kitui who by God's grace, is present in this House.

DELAYED IMPLEMENTATION OF SENATE’S RESOLUTION AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO PAY HONORARIUM AND MONTHLY PENSION TO FORMER COUNCILLORS

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity to ask this Question on behalf of the former councillors who cut across the Republic of Kenya.

I thank my former colleague at the National Assembly for finding time to come to respond to the questions from Kenyans.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning the following Question No.015.

Hon. Cabinet Secretary, you may now respond. The Cabinet Secretary, National Treasury and Economic Planning (Hon. Mbadi) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am grateful for the opportunity to appear before the Senate, conscious of your critical role in our nation’s governance, ensuring accountability and representing the interests of the Kenyan people.

My aim today is to provide you with a comprehensive response to your questions to achieve the best possible outcome for our country. I was invited here to address two Questions. The first has been asked by the Senator of Meru county.

My response is as follows-

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 24

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have fully stated my stand that it is the first time this matter of legal opinion is being raised here. Even the chairperson of former councillors is not aware of the legal opinion given by the Attorney-General. I do not know who sneaks these opinions so that these people do not get their money. It is a very little money, less than even Kshs200 million.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 25

Services, Senate.

This country is shaming itself. These are former leaders who really need support; they do not have even money to pay for SHA. I met some of them in Meru and they are very old wazees. They do not even have Kshs300 to pay for SHA. There is a group somewhere, which is frustrating them so that they cannot pay Kshs200,000 per councillor, for those who served for less than three terms.

My question is to refer back the treasury. We do not need that legal opinion; it can be quashed by this House, so that these wazees can get their pension.

As I said, this matter is not about the questions but---

Senator for Meru, with all that, what are you asking the hon. Cabinet Secretary?

The Cabinet Secretary to set aside that legal opinion and pay the councillors without further delay.

So, your question is: Could the hon. Cabinet Secretary set aside that opinion?

Yes.

Set aside the legal opinion and proceed to pay. Is that your question?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if he cannot set aside, he can still request the Attorney-General through treasury. He has that power to request the Attorney-General to set aside that opinion or to come up with a legal framework that will enhance the payment of their pension and honorarium to their former councillors.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 26

Services, Senate.

My question is to refer back the treasury. We do not need that legal opinion; it can be quashed by this House, so that these wazees can get their pension.

As I said, this matter is not about the questions but---

Services, Senate.

Remember we even have cases of former Members of Parliament whom I personally attempted to provide a legal framework through which they could be paid. I brought a Bill in Parliament, which was passed, and the President refused to assent to it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this was in realization that there was no legal framework to pay former MPs. There cannot be lack of legal framework to pay former MPs, which made us to attempt to amend the law, yet there is a legal framework to pay former councillors. To be honest, if these former councillors have to be paid, there must be change of the law. We all know that even our Constitution talks about any money that is paid to anybody who is appearing like a public officer, I believe councillors would appear, that needs to be processed through Salaries and Remuneration Commission (SRC).

Lastly, these councillors were not even drawing a salary. Therefore, you do not even know if you are to pay them. You are basing it on what. In addition, the Motion by the Senate was a Motion. Motion remains an intent. It does not have the legal basis to occasion withdrawal of public funds. If it was a Bill passed by the House, then that becomes legally binding. However, where we are, there is an intention to pay former councillors, but we lack the legal framework.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What guidance are you seeking, Senator for Kakamega?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have listened very painfully, the difficulty the Minister appears to be having. However, listening to it and reading Article 94 of the Constitution, which speaks to the role of Parliament, it says, in 94 (5) , that no person or body other than Parliament has the power to make a provision having the force of law in Kenya, except under the authority conferred by this Constitution.

We have not come to Nairobi to this House to speak in vain. We do so under the provision of this Constitution, which I have read. Is the Cabinet Secretary suggesting that the Attorney-General has the power to veto Parliament? This Parliament made a resolution.

Sen. Boni, I will give you an opportunity to ask a question.

No, I was asking for interpretation.

Sen. Enoch, I can see your name on the dashboard.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wanted you to guide us.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 27

Services, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What guidance are you seeking, Senator for Kakamega?

Services, Senate. resolution on this date, but we have received an advisory opinion from the Attorney- General on this day so, please act accordingly?

I will not belabor the point. The Cabinet Secretary fought with me on this matter when he was pushing the agenda of the former Members of the National Assembly to be compensated. In fact, I have a message for the Cabinet Secretary from one former Member of Parliament from Kitui East, Hon. Mweu. He is still waiting for the day when this administration will live up to its word that the things that had been done wrongly will be done right and people will get their rights under this administration.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, can your House legislate in vain?

Is that a question to me or to the Cabinet Secretary?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a clever way of getting you agitated. This is because somebody is trying to say that you can sit on that chair, preside over a Motion and a resolution is passed, which pushes ministries to sit down and come up with a solution to a problem, then one person, by a stroke of a pen says that all we have done is in vain.

The question is to the Cabinet Secretary. Can any House of Parliament legislate in vain?

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Who do you want to inform?

I want to inform the House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Cabinet Secretary has not given the right answer. This was not a Motion. A taskforce was formed and it included the Ministry of National Treasury and Planning, the Ministry of Devolution and Arid and Semi-Arid Lands and the Ministry of Labour and Social Protection.

That interagency taskforce was to look at the payment of honorarium and monthly pension of former councilors. It was to negotiate with them. They negotiated and agreed on what should be paid. The interagency taskforce gave proposals and the three Cabinet Secretaries appended their signatures in this Report that I will table to this House.

The three cabinet secretaries who appended their signatures to the amount of money to be paid to the councilors are the Cabinet Secretary to the Ministry of National Treasury and Planning, who was Ambassador Ukur Yatani, we also have Hon. Eugene Wamalwa who was the Cabinet Secretary in the Ministry of Devolution and Arid and Semi-Arid Lands and Hon. Simon Chelugui, who was the Cabinet Secretary in the Ministry of Labour and Social Protection.

It is a negotiated package and agreement which was to be provided. They said that their monies were to be put in the budget of the financial year 2022/2023. We are not talking of a Motion but a resolution, which was communicated to the Clerk of the Senate from the Ministry of National Treasury and Planning advising the Senate on what the interagency taskforce agreed on. This is the property of the Senate.

We are not talking of a Motion passed by the House. It is a resolution from an inter-ministerial taskforce. I want to table this resolution to the Senate so that we do not say that we have finished with the Cabinet Secretary. We must review this decision. Thank you, for giving me all this indulgence.

You may proceed to table the document.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 28

Services, Senate.

Ahsante Mheshimiwa Spika. Mwaka jana nilipokuwa katika kamati ya fedha ya bunge hii, waziri wa zamani wa fedha na hazina alikuja mbele ya Committee wakati tulipokuwa tunajadili Budget Policy Statement. Ali commit kwamba hizo pesa ambazo madiwani wa zamani wanatakikana kulipwa yatawekwa katika budget ya mwaka wa 2024/2025.

Ni sawa mawaziri waje katika bunge hii na kamati zake kutoa majibu ambayo hayalingani? Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u alikuwa waziri wa fedha na hazina kuu katika serikali ya Kenya Kwanza. Leo tuko na waziri Mbadi. Je ni sawa mawaziri kukuja na majibu tofauti katika bunge hili?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, our brother, Hon. Mbadi, is an experienced parliamentarian and he knows that Parliament does not speak in vain. I leave that to his conscience.

The former councilors of Nandi, Uasin Gishu and Kakamega counties came to see me, formally. They told me that the President had met them and made a commitment just before he won the election. He told them that he would ensure that the promise made by the Jubilee Government--- No, the inter-ministerial taskforce was during the Jubilee Government. He said that he was aware of that taskforce and he would implement that decision if elected.

God has been very kind and he is now the President. He committed himself to these councilors. Can the Cabinet Secretary undertake, as the financial advisor to the President, to go and make the necessary consultations so that the promise of the President and the expectations of the former councilors converge and we pay our old people. After all, paying this Kshs200 million will be a form of financial stimulus. They will spend the money in public and the economy, in their villages, will be vibrant.

Asante Bw. Spika. Waziri wa Fedha, Waziri wa Leba na yule wa ugatuzi walizungumza na wakakubaliana ya kwamba watapeana Cabinet Memo ili Kshs2,686,000,000 iwekwe katika budget ya mwaka wa 2023/2024 ili iweze kulipa councilors wa zamani ambao walikuwa 11,909. Pia, walisema ya kwamba Kshs218,000,000 itatumika kulipa councilors ambao walifanya kazi zaidi ya term tatu. Naomba Waziri wa Fedha atueleze kwamba haya mambo yalibadilika lini?

Ninajaribu kuongea Kiswahili ndio councilors waweze kuelewa. Hiyo ilibadilika lini? Seneti hii inaweza kujieleza kwa njia mbili. Ya kwanza ni kwa ile Motion. Ya pili ni kupitisha sheria. Seneti hii ilipitisha mkataba ikasema ya kwamba former councilors ambao walikuwa 11,400 waweze kulipwa pesa. Tulikuwa na mikutano hapa na tukazungumza. Waziri wa fedha ambaye alikuwa kabla ya Waziri Mbadi alikuja---

Waziri wa Hazina ya Kitaifa na Mipango ya Kiuchumi, ambaye alikuwa kabla ya Hon. Mbadi alihudhuria mkutano wa kamati ya Leba na Ustawi wa Jamii. Ilikuwa Aprili, 23 na akatueleza kuwa wamekubaliana na wanaenda kuwasilisha Cabinet Memo ili pesa hii iwekwe kwenye bajeti. Ningependa kujua kama pesa hii iliwekwa na

Who do you want to inform?

You may proceed to table the document.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 29

Conclude.

Sen. Faki

Hon. Mbadi ametueleza kuwa alipata ujumbe kutoka kwa Attorney-General (AG) ya kwamba jambo hili halifai kufanywa. Wakati Mhe. (Prof.) Ndung’u alihudhuria mkutano wa kamati hii, hakuwa amezungumza na AG kumweleza kuwa anakwenda kule na anataka kupewa ushawishi kabla ya kupeleka mkataba huu kwenye baraza la mawaziri. Walieleza kuwa ni lazima wangekuwa Cabinet Secretaries watatu ambao watapeleka joint Cabinet Memo ili pesa hizo ziwekwe kwenye bajeti.

Ni lini swala hili lilibadilika? Ama huu ni mchezo wa paka na panya? Leo tunasema tunampa huyu lakini kwa sababu hana ile political clout wanatupwa nje. Maisha ya waliokuwa madiwani ni ya hofu. Ni lazima uwapiganie. Leo hii Hon. Mbadi akisema tunabadilisha na kuweka programu kama ya Inua Jamii itakuwa ni ubaguzi.

Unaezaje kusema unainua jamii ya madiwani na kuwapa Kshs200,000 ilhali unmpa baba ya Ledama Kshs200? Je, huu ni ungwana?

Asante.

Hon. Senators, allow the Hon. Cabinet Secretary to respond because in his response, I believe that he may even address some of the issues that are yet to be raised.

Proceed, hon. Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning (Hon. Mbadi) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First, I want to categorically state that it is not in my interest to deny former councillors what is rightfully theirs. What I am emphasizing on is that it is desirable to pay these former councillors. Many of them are suffering after serving this country in public offices. They are respected personalities in their right. However, we must do it within the law.

I have been asked by Sen. Wambua a few questions. One, whether the House can act in vain. My answer is no. The House should not act in vain. Did we write to the Speaker ---

Sen. Oketch Gicheru and Senator of Garissa County, kindly resume your seats.

The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning (Hon. Mbadi) : Did my office write to the Speaker on this matter, or on the opinion of the AG? Unfortunately, I do not think we did. We did not write to inform the Speaker. There was

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 30

Services, Senate. a task force that was set up, and also a resolution of the House. Let me start with the task force. Is the report of the task force binding? My understanding is that it is not.

Article 94(5) of Constitution, which Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale mentioned, states- “No person or body, other than Parliament, has the power to make provision having the force of law in Kenya except under authority conferred by this Constitution or by legislation.” I am yet to see the provision in our Constitution or any written law, passed by this Parliament, which has authorized a task force formed to approve payment to former councillors. If there is that provision, I would make provision in our budget and pay. However, there is none. That task force remains just that. The report should also be implemented procedurally, but it has not been done. A legislation should have flown automatically from the task force report to anchor it in law.

On the question by Sen. Faki on why I have not respected or obeyed what former Cabinet Secretaries committed to do, unfortunately, I want to report to the Senate that my predecessor, Hon. Ukur Yatani, or even Hon. Prof. Ndung’ u, probably made a commitment, but they did not pay. The person who is paying now is myself. I cannot pay unless backed by the law because it will raise issues. I am the one accountable and responsible.

I cannot hide behind people who made commitments or intentions, but did not pay. The paymaster now is me. If they paid, I would have come here to report that they did. However, they did not, and they left it for me. I am also checking the legal framework, but I do not see it.

A question was asked about the AGs’ powers. My understanding of Article 156 of the Constitution is that the AG is a principal legal advisor to the Government. I take his or her advice very seriously. The AG gave advice on 8th May, 2023, on this, and it has not been vacated or changed.

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has asked me again about Parliament legislating in vain. I say, again, Parliament cannot legislate in vain. We have been in this House with the Senator for a while. We know the power and the force that a Motion or an Act of Parliament has.

This has been the legislative practice; that if you want a Bill to pass easily, you craft it to a Motion. That Motion is debated, and once you succeed, then you follow through by generating a Bill to actualize it. How I wish that Sen. Wambua, who raised this matter, brought it to the House through a Motion, followed through by bringing a legislation to anchor whatever the House resolved into law to allow for payment. If that is done, I will definitely obey the legal framework.

As to the President's commitment to pay the councillors; I want to again read Article 94(5) of the Constitution. There is no exclusion here-

“No person or body, other than Parliament, has the power to make provision having the force of law in Kenya except under authority conferred by this Constitution or by legislation.”

Hon. Senator, you are entitled to only one supplementary question under our Standing Orders.

Bw. Spika hili ni swali moja tu. Kiswahili ndicho kigumu. Naomba unipe ruhusa kwa sababu ningejieleza kwa Kingereza ningekuwa nime flow vizuri.

Conclude.

Unaezaje kusema unainua jamii ya madiwani na kuwapa Kshs200,000 ilhali unmpa baba ya Ledama Kshs200? Je, huu ni ungwana?

Asante.

Hon. Senators, allow the Hon. Cabinet Secretary to respond because in his response, I believe that he may even address some of the issues that are yet to be raised.

I have been asked by Sen. Wambua a few questions. One, whether the House can act in vain. My answer is no. The House should not act in vain. Did we write to the Speaker ---

Sen. Oketch Gicheru and Senator of Garissa County, kindly resume your seats.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 31

Very well. Three Committees will work together with the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and the Office of the Attorney-General. The Committees are the Labour and Social Welfare Committee, Standing Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights (JLAHRC) , and Finance and Budget. We need that report to be laid before the Senate within 60 days. The earlier, the better.

We move to the second question. Question No. 25. Senator Boni, proceed. Question No.025

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 32

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to ask Question No. 25, as indicated on the order paper. Allow me to congratulate the Cabinet Secretary for the candid manner in which he has handled this matter of gross national importance.

The Speaker (Hon. Kingi)

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 33

The Speaker (Hon. Kingi)

Services, Senate.

On a Point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Services, Senate.

(Technical hitch) Sorry, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Perhaps I can now continue. Under education, I said that there is a US$ 22.3 million. Giving examples of where this money will have been spent or would be spent is improving early grade literacy across public primary schools. I want to single out that there was support to public Technical Vocational Education Training (TVETs) in Kilifi, Mombasa, Nakuru and Machakos to align training to industry needs, providing scholarships to the youth to attend TVETs and support for the newly established Open University of Kenya (OUK) to build systems for infrastructural, instructional delivery and establish partnerships with private sector and universities in the US and globally. Those are the areas where the education money was going to.

Under governance, a number of issues are being dealt with, but the amount that was available for this was US$ 8.6 million. Under food security, it was a little higher, US$128 million and that is an equivalent of Kshs16.5 billion. This was supporting a number of Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) and programmes, including Dadaab and Kakuma refugee camps, improved farming practises, county governments, NGOs and UN agencies and especially, Arid and Semi-Arid (ASAL) areas in providing food and relief to over 2.5 million people. The details are there.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the second question, what is the total funding requirement for each of the said programmes and could the Cabinet Secretary specify the amount of funds that you said was projected to provide in the Financial Year 2024/2025? The amount for the said programmes that I highlighted such as food, governance and education is approximately US$158.9 million, equivalent to about Kshs20 billion, while the total assistance, including health and the others is approximately US$ 405.4 million, which is about Kshs52 billion for the Financial Year 2024/2025, from USAID. As I have indicated, this includes other sectors such as health, economic growth, water and environment.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is important to note that while Official Development Assistance (ODA) from USAID is aligned to our medium-term plan and supplement Government investments and largely benefits the people of Kenya, USAID contracts implementing partners, that is both international and local, are entities that bear the fiduciary responsibility because this funding is implemented by the implementing partners. The money, as I will state, does not come to our budget.

Therefore, USAID support is not reflected in the budget. The National Treasury plays a subsidiary role in facilitating tax exemptions. This is something worth noting. This has been off-budget financing from USAID, however, they provide very critical services.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, what interim measures has the Government put in place to address the funding gap that has emerged as a result of the freeze of foreign assistance from the USA, to ensure continuity of critical services? My response is as follows-

Regarding the interim measures to address the funding gaps resulting from the freeze of foreign assistance from the USA, the Government has taken the following steps to ensure continuity of critical services-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for your guidance. I am okay with it. I have realised where the Lacuna is. Is it possible also to include the Committee on Finance and Budget because it is very critical in this matter. That is the Committee that can also get the Cabinet Secretary, Hon. Mbadi, any time they want to meet him. Otherwise, the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare does not know the corners of the National Treasury more than the Committee on Finance and Budget. It is also a finance matter. So, it is better that the Committee on Finance and Budget to be involved.

We move to the second question. Question No. 25. Senator Boni, proceed. Question No.025

USAID FUNDED PROGRAMMES IN KENYA AND INTERIM MEASURES TO ADDRESS THE FUNDING GAP

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 34

Services, Senate.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Treasury and Economic Planning (Hon. Mbadi) : Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker. Allow me also to reciprocate the magnanimity of Sen. Boni Khalwale by saying that I also appreciate the Senator for being proactive in this matter and not waiting until there are challenges out of this freeze of funding, to now ask questions. He is being proactive and asking well in advance. Since the Senator has read the question, I do not want to read it again. However, it is Question No. 025.

This is my response. First and foremost, allow me to acknowledge the invaluable support from the Government of the United States of America to the people of Kenya for over six decades. We enjoy a cordial and enduring partnership between the United States and Kenya that has led to healthy collaboration in a wide range of initiatives such as access to education, improving quality health care through nutrition, family planning and maternal and child health, including malaria, tuberculosis, HIV-AIDS and strengthening of the healthcare system, support for economic growth through trade, agriculture and infrastructure initiatives, fostering democracy, governance and conflict interventions that directly impact the lives of millions of Kenyans.

So, cognizant of the Executive Order titled Re-evaluating and Realigning United States Foreign Aid issued ordering a 90-day pause on all U.S. foreign development assistance programmes to conduct a review, the National Treasury wishes the Senate to note the following.

That the U.S. government provides foreign aid primarily in grant form to Kenya using several U.S. Government agencies whom we have an existing development cooperation framework with, including U.S. Department of State, U.S. Agency for International Development, or what is known as USAID, U.S. Trade Development Agency (DA) the Millennium Challenge Corporation (MCC) the United States President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (USPEPFAR) Development Finance Corporation (DFC) and the U.S. African Development Foundation (USADF)

We signed the Development Cooperation Framework Agreement (DCFA) with USAID on the 8th of December 2019. The initial contribution was US$50, 16,204, but this has since been increased to US$1,695,978,754, which is equivalent to Kshs 220,477,238,020. The DCFA is valid up to 30th September, 2028.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those highlights, I now wish to respond to Question No.025 by the Senator for Kakamega County, Sen. (Dr.) Boni Khalwale, as follows-

On the question of providing a list of all programmes in Kenya relating to education, food security and governance that were being implemented by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) at the time of freezing of the foreign assistance by the United States of America (USA) , I wish to state that attached to my written response is the list of the USAID funded programmes in Kenya relating to education, food security and governance. This is appended as annexure number one.

Under education, if you go to that annexure at page 14 of my submission, there is US$ 22.3 million. I have highlighted where this money would be spent; training of teachers to enhance reading instructions, providing support to public schools---

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 35

Sen. Abdul Haji

Services, Senate.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 36

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Senator. Cabinet Secretary, please respond. Thank you.

Sen. Cherarkey, I have told you that we have run out of time. Another Cabinet Secretary is waiting. The Questions have been answered. These are supplementary questions. Sen. Cherarkey, we are not going to engage each other in a verbal exchange.

Cabinet Secretary, please proceed. Sen. Cherarkey, that is enough. Let the Cabinet Secretary reply.

The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning (Hon. Mbadi) : Thank you. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to quickly address the two issues that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has raised. Regarding his regrets, I agree that funding issues like advocacy and support for fighting corruption will certainly be affected, and we may not have enough resources to support such programmes. However, this is regrettable because we really need accountability in the country. So, I agree with Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale on that.

Secondly, on the issue of Universal Health Coverage, I want to agree with Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale that this programme is contentious everywhere in the world. There is no country that I know of which has implemented Universal Health Coverage without issues around it, either political, people who feel it should not be implemented, especially in developed democracies, or it is issues around how to implement it.

We, as a country, promised universal health coverage in the manifestos of major political parties. However, we must implement it properly. The issue around SHA is not that SHA is not right; it is the good thing, and it is the right thing to do, but the issue around it is, are we doing it properly? So, this is the question that we need to ask.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 37

Sen. Abdul Haji

Services, Senate.

So, what am I going to do from the Treasury perspective? From the Treasury, I am going to insist on rationalising our budget to put money where it is needed. I just want to tell Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale that the National Treasury has supported SHA. It is not true that we have not supported it. Even in the current supplementary two, we have a location of Kshs6 billion to support SHA, three billion to support primary health care, and another three billion to support critical care.

By the way, it may interest Members to understand that, from the information I have, critical health care was not being provided under the National Health Insurance Fund (NHIF) but under SHA. The Government has insisted we must provide it and make resources available.

Apart from the deductions from members, which are basically insurance, it is not actually expenditure. The money that is collected from Kenyans, if you take the best-case scenario that no Kenyan falls sick, should not be spent; it should remain there. So, it is not an expenditure.

That is why, when you look at our fiscal framework, we have removed the SHA allocation of Kshs73 billion from the framework because it is not an expenditure. However, the Government must also put in money to support health care in the country. So, you will see in the budget allocation that we must support this critical health programme.

I hope and believe that the Line Ministry will do justice to Kenyans by making this system work, more efficient, and more accountable. Problems are bound to exist because any new thing must have challenges. However, those challenges must be dealt with within a period of time so that the system works. We cannot afford to lose this system. This system is the best for this country, especially with the challenges surrounding some of the health programmes that USAID was supporting.

We need a system that caters to society's vulnerable. I agree with Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, largely. I have taken note of your suggestion and advice to my Ministry on how to deal with the funding for the Health Ministry. I will act accordingly.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 38

Sen. Abdul Haji

Services, Senate. financial year 2025/2026 and in the medium-term budget. Sector Working Groups (SWG) are required to eliminate wasteful expenditures and pursue priorities which are aimed at safeguarding livelihoods, creating jobs, reviving businesses and economic recovery.

I want to add that we have already put a zero-based budgeting model into the IFMIS for the budget that we are processing at the moment. SWG should also ensure that all expenditure items in the financial year 2025/2026 budget are justified and emphasis is placed on allocating the limited resources based on program efficiency and requirement than incremental budgeting.

Before I finish, I wanted to point out that the day before yesterday, I had a meeting with the Charge’ d’affaires of the United Statesof America (USA) in Kenya. This is what I want to add to the response that I have just given. We discussed at length and it is clear, as I said, that the USA has been giving us support directly through implementing partners, not through the budgetary support. The programs out of this executive order, which have been running in this country, were about 100. With this executive order, the programs may reduce to only 15.

These are the areas that are going to be saved from the discussion I had with them. I requested him to give me a write-up on the impact of this executive order, including areas that are not going to be affected. He stated that life-saving interventions will not be affected. Emergencies like infectious diseases, e.g. Ebola, will not be affected in terms of a fund cut. Emergency food assistance will also be preserved or not affected or saved. Finally, our mission in Haiti through our police force will also be supported. Therefore, the executive order does not affect those areas. Those will still continue to enjoy the USA funding.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, even as we pursue these risk-mitigating measures, we remain hopeful that we shall continue strengthening our bilateral ties with the USA notwithstanding the outcome of the 90-day review on foreign aid. We discussed at length with the team from the USA Embassy and they have indicated areas where they still want to continue cooperating with us. They re-emphasized that the foreign policy around Kenya is still intact and remains intact.

I thank you very much. I submit.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Hon. Senators, due to time, I will not be taking any supplementary questions except from Sen. (Dr.) Boni Khalwale. You can ask one supplementary question if you are still not satisfied with the response.

Services, Senate.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 39

Services, Senate. the Universal Health Care (UHC) has succeeded elsewhere in the world, the funding model is clearly based on what comes from the National Treasury, what they realise from the contributions of members who subscribe to the programme for insurance and an element of out of the pocket.

Could you clarify to the country's Cabinet Secretary that the current funding model of the Social Health Authority (SHA) does not factor in any money from the National Treasury? Given that in your budget, you have Kshs134.5 billion thereabout to the Ministry of Health, which is going to remain at Afya House.

Can I plead on behalf of the Kenyans that the Kshs134 billion that is remaining at Afya House, you should take upwards of 50 or 60 per cent and take it into SHA so that it can be the national Government's contribution to cushion the programme because the noise I hear across the country, is about funding. People are happy about SHA, but the funding does not appear to be sustainable.

Could you undertake to learn and borrow from the way Universal Health Care is funded in other countries, the UK included? I am afraid the noise we are hearing is not about to come to an end.

Thank you.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Senator. Cabinet Secretary, please respond. Thank you.

Cabinet Secretary, please proceed. Sen. Cherarkey, that is enough. Let the Cabinet Secretary reply.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 40

Sen. Abdul Haji

Services, Senate.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We shall give you leave now. I wish you all the best in the hard task ahead, and we'll probably see you next time in this House to ask you more questions.

(The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning

Sen. Abdul Haji

Sen. Cherarkey, proceed. Give him the microphone.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 41

Sen. Abdul Haji

Sen. Ogola, please ask your question as it appears on the Order Paper so that we save time.

Question No.021

POINT OF ORDER

TIME MANAGEMENT DURING QUESTIONS TIME

Sen. Cherarkey

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration is coming and has more than 10 questions to respond to. We have been sitting since morning; we need guidance early so that if there is no space for supplementary questions, we do not have to wait. If we do not get a chance, then why did we indicate in the Standing Orders that supplementary questions will be asked?

In fact, the Standing Order should only allow the people who are asking the questions to ask the question. It is unfair for Members to come here at 9.30 a.m. to ask further supplementary questions or even to assist in the guidance of the House and not be given a chance.

This does not apply only to me but to a number of colleagues who have sat here since morning. The next Cabinet Secretary has more than 10 questions, and even if you are to indulge the House to rise at 1.15 p.m., it will not be sufficient.

Will you indulge the House using Standing Order No.1? If that is okay, the owners of the questions in the Order Paper can drop their supplementary questions and allow other Members to ask further questions. If it is not possible, under Standing Order No.1, kindly guide the House so that Members do not expect to ask.

We can be good listeners, and we can listen through. Since my question was simple, I wanted to find out from the Cabinet Secretary the position of USAID on the payment of Universal Health Coverage. This is a live issue. I know you have UHC in Garissa and Kericho.

Is the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning looking into the same, following the suspension of USAID that has been catering for that?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we need your interpretation of Standing Order No.1. When a Cabinet Secretary appears here to answer questions, from your dashboard, you can tell whether an answer is sufficient to a question. If a Cabinet Secretary has not answered a question adequately, and by looking at the reaction of Members, is it possible for you to direct that the Cabinet Secretary withdraws that response and perhaps comes back after seven or fourteen days, so that we also do not waste time? The reason we ask more supplementary questions could be because the responses are not sufficient.

I need your guidance on Standing Order No.1 where Cabinet Secretaries give answers that do not satisfy the House, or we feel that they have not taken the House seriously.

Another issue is this. For example, today we will have Cabinet Secretaries for Interior and National Administration, National Treasury and Economic Planning, and Labour and Social Protection. If some of them have many questions to respond to, is there a way we can have just two, for example, the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning and the Cabinet Secretary for Education? We agree that there are many issues. Is there a way the Senate Business Committee (SBC) can sit and agree on that?

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 42

Sen. Cherarkey

We can do that. Question No.027 is by the Senator for Turkana, Sen. James Lomenen.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Sen. Cherarkey. What you have raised is valid. We will take it up with SBC. We should not lump up Ministries which have many questions to respond to. Today we have three Cabinet Secretaries and it is quite evident that we are not able to manage our time properly.

We have six questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration. I propose that we get all the six questions asked and see how much time will be left after that, so that we know how many supplementary questions to take thereafter. Therefore, you will ask the six questions without any supplementary. After they have been replied to, we will see how many supplementary questions can be asked. Is that in order, hon. Senators?

Hon. Senators

Yes.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, my Question is as follows-

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Senator. Next is Sen. Chute, Senator for Marsabit.

Question No.003

LEVEL OF PREPAREDNESS IN MITIGATION OF DROUGHT AND FLOODS

Sen. Ogola

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have the following questions-

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Senator. Next is Sen. Hamida Kibwana.

Sen. Abdul Haji

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Not to challenge your directions, but when you look at the time, we have got just about 30 minutes before we close this session. When you look at the Order Paper, there are quite a number of questions.

We run the risk of asking the questions then time runs out and then end up taking the written responses from the Cabinet Secretary, which will defeat the essence of this

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 43

Sen. Abdul Haji

Services, Senate. session. When we put this in the Standing Orders, this session was never there. It was meant to build interaction with Cabinet Secretaries.

I want to plead with you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Let us not rush so that we finish. Let us have a substantive conversation and probably just take the first three or four questions and have the Cabinet Secretary to respond. If he responds satisfactorily within the time allowed, then the other questions can be asked. Otherwise, we will be engaging in an academic exercise, which is not the spirit of this session.

MEASURES TO MITIGATE PERSISTENT LIVESTOCK THEFT AND BANDITRY IN TURKANA COUNTY

Sen. Lomenen

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, my Question is as follows-

Sen. Abdul Haji

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have the following questions to Bw. Waziri-

RESETTLEMENT AND COMPENSATION OF IDPS IN MARSABIT TOWN

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have the following questions-

Sen. Abdul Haji

I have the following questions to the Cabinet Secretary-

Sen. M. Kajwang’

We run the risk of asking the questions then time runs out and then end up taking the written responses from the Cabinet Secretary, which will defeat the essence of this

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 44

Sen. M. Kajwang’

The last question is by the Senator of Tana River County, Sen. Mungatana.

Question No.020

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Senator. We were proceeding well before you interrupted. We will continue the way we were doing. The Chair has a leeway to increase the time once it gets to one o’clock. We will see how well the Cabinet Secretary will have done in terms of his responses.

Proceed, Sen. Hamida. Question No.006

DETERIORATING CONDITION OF NYAYO HOUSE

Sen. Kibwana

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have the following questions to Bw. Waziri-

Sen. Abdul Haji

The next question is by Sen. Joe Nyutu on behalf of the Sen. (Dr.) Murango of Kirinyaga county.

Question No.012

INCREASED INSECURITY IN KIRINYAGA COUNTY

I have the following questions to the Cabinet Secretary-

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 45

Services, Senate.

On 24th January, 2025, at around 9.30 p.m., Gladys Nyambura Njuki, an Mpesa shop operator in Kerugoya Town closed her business and boarded a motorcycle provided ridden by Eric Maina to her residence in Muthaiga area. Before reaching her destination, they were intercepted by assailants using two numberless motorcycles each carrying a pillion passenger and armed with a pistol. The criminals confronted the complainant brandishing pistols and forcibly snatched her handbag while demanding money.

Upon hearing a distress call, a resident, Mr. Peter Karimi Kamau, aged 44 years, responded in an attempt to assist. Unfortunately, one of the robbers shot him. They also fired two shots in the air to disperse bystanders before fleeing the scene on the motorcycles. Police officers arrived promptly but criminals had already escaped.

At the scene, the police officers recovered two spent cartridges and five rounds of ammunitions. The injured victim was rushed to Kerugoya County Referral Hospital for treatment. Unfortunately, he succumbed to the injuries the following day on 24th January,

Section 296(2) of the Penal Code and reference is provided. Forensic was done at the Directorate of Criminal Investigation (DCI) headquarters by conducting ballistic examination on two spent cartridges recovered at the scene of crime established that the firearm used in this incidence had also been linked to a separate robbery with violence case at DCI in Ruiru. As at now, the suspect remains at large and the case is still under active investigation to apprehend those who are responsible.

Regarding the long-term plans by the National Police Service to curb insecurity in Kerugoya town and its environs, the Government is committed to implementing long term measures to enhance security and maintain law and order in Kerugoya town and its surrounding areas.

The following strategies aim to provide sustainable solutions to crime and insecurity. Strengthening the community policing and nyumba kumi initiative. More details are provided for in the statement. Increasing police presence and patrols. Use of technology of crime prevention especially CCTV cameras and use of the toll-free emergency number, ‘Fichua Kwa DCI’. Capacity building and training of officers.

We provide continuous training for the officers on modern crime fighting techniques, intelligence gathering, human rights practices, among others.

Addressing socio-economic drivers of crime. We would like to collaborate with the local community organisation to provide social programmes aimed at reducing criminal behaviour. Improve the legal and judicial processes to enhance collaboration between the police and Judiciary to ensure that these cases are handled swiftly.

Enhance intelligence and surveillance operations in the area, strengthening Public-Private Partnership (PPP) in security, working together with the private firms and the community, and finally periodic security audits and stakeholder engagement to ensure that we deal with these threats.

On the list of police officers who have served in Kirinyaga County over three years and their transfer status. The Service Standing Orders (SSO) CAP 72 govern the

Sen. Abdul Haji

The last question is by the Senator of Tana River County, Sen. Mungatana.

Question No.020

STATUS OF INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE MURDER OF MR. ISAAC JARSO, A RESIDENT OF KONE VILLAGE, TANA RIVER COUNTY

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

I rise to seek answers to the following-

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 46

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Services, Senate.

Honorable Speaker, on question 2, the government has been distributing relief food to the affected households. In addition, there has been allocation of bursaries to the affected children.

On the terms of compensating the IDPs and when they will be paid, most of the IDPs have returned to their original Manyattas - Daba, Sales, Wako, Konso, Banchale, Aisakonu, Umuro, and Gabra scheme.

To ensure their safety and security, police posts have been established in the area. Saku CDF has put up a police post at Manyatta Daba awaiting deployment of security officers. National Police Reservists have been deployed across the hotspots and peace dialogue have been conducted across the county. Peace structure committees are operational. There is enhanced intelligence gathering and there is frequent public barrages being conducted in the area.

In the absence of budgetary allocation in my ministry to facilitate compensation for IDPs, the county resettlement committee is engaging the IDPs to voluntarily return to their Manyatta. This has become possible since the security situation has stabilized.

The government commits to ensuring that upon return of the displaced persons, adequate provisions is made to provide them with food and non-food items.

On question number 006 by nominated Sen. Hamida Kibwana, Speaker, on part one, which is the deteriorating situation of the Nyayo House, I would like to respond as follows –

Nyayo House was commissioned around 42 years ago and currently accommodates over 58 national and county government departments, which offer different services to the citizens, especially in migration services. Previously, the ministry engaged the State Department of Public Works to assess the necessary maintenance works of Nyayo House and they gave the ministry a bill of quantities amounting to Kshs244,831,860; funds which the ministry does not have at the moment. The refurbishment will cover internal and external painting, electrical and mechanical works, including the lifts, which are performing very poorly.

The State Department of Migration and Citizen Services occupies the majority of the floors in Nyayo House. All these floors currently occupied by the State Department are being refurbished to ensure efficient service delivery and a conducive working environment for both the staff and the clients. The floors that accommodate the Principal Secretary's office are on 23rd floor, the Director of E-Citizen Services on 23rd, 22nd and 17th floors have all been renovated and refurbished with modern furnishing and IT infrastructure. The service lobby on the ground floor where the Director of Migration and Citizen Services carries out passport application and issuance; was fully renovated and expanded to accommodate our targeted clientele.

Plans are underway to renovate offices on third, fourth and eighth floors and refurbish all the washrooms and all floors that are occupied by State Department of Migration and Citizen Services.

On part two, on the measures put in place to ensure both public and government officials working there have clean water, sanitary amenities and conducive working environment, I would like to respond as follows –

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 47

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Thank you very much, Hon. Cabinet Secretary. Hon. Senators, we are going to extend for not more than 15 minutes as per the provisions in the Standing Order. I shall take two questions from each side, so whoever is going to catch my eye on this side.

Sen. Chute, you have the first question.

INCREASED INSECURITY IN KIRINYAGA COUNTY

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 48

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Sen. Chute, you realise we do not have much time. We have understood your question. Please, let us allow other Senators to ask their questions.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 49

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Services, Senate. transfer and deployment of police officers. As stipulated, the mandate for deployment lies with the Inspector General (IG) and is not used as a disciplinary measure or reward.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, additionally, in line with the Maraga Task Force recommendations, officers should not serve in a single station for more than three years to enhance professionalism, mitigate corruption and ensure optimal service delivery. However, exceptional circumstances allow certain officers to remain in one station beyond this period, including those with medical conditions requiring family support, officers undergoing disciplinary proceedings and those nearing retirement who wish to serve a closer home. In this regard, we have a total of 30 police officers who have served for more than three years in Kerugoya Town.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, on Question No.020 by the Senator for Tana River County, Hon. Sen. Mungatana, MGH on murder of Mr. Isack Jarso Delo. I wish to respond as follows.

On part one of the Question, which is why the killers have not been arrested. On 29th December 2024, at approximately 1030Hours, a contingent of 23 Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS) rangers embarked on an operation to remove cattle and herders who had allegedly settled inside Tsavo East National Park. During the operation, the rangers encountered Isack Abdulla Jarso, - now deceased - his family and his friends at his home in Manyatta.

When the rangers attempted to arrest the deceased, an altercation ensued, escalating into a physical confrontation, beating him and his friends against the rangers. The scuffle resulted in the fatal shooting of Isack Jarso. At 1045 hours, Mr. Said Omar, Assistant Chief of Kone Sublocation, reported the incident at Garsen Police Station under the Occurrence Book (OB) number provided.

Officers from Kone Police Post responded promptly and arrived at the scene where they found the lifeless body of Isack Abdulla Jarso, a 42-year-old male. The body had gunshot wounds on the upper right thigh. Investigations commenced under Inquiry No. 4 of 2024 of Director of Criminal Investigations (DCI) Delta, with officers documenting evidence at the scene and recovering four spent cartridges.

The body was moved to Malindi Subcounty Hospital, mortuary for preservation, where a post-mortem examination was conducted confirming that the cause of death was due to gunshot-inflicted injuries. As part of the investigation, statements were recorded from the key witnesses, including the deceased's wife, two friends who were with him at the time of the incident, and two brothers who arrived after being alerted about the shooting.

Additionally, statements were taken from KWS rangers involved in the operation. To facilitate forensic analysis, all 23 rifles used by the rangers during the operation were collected and escorted to the Forensic Laboratory in Nairobi for ballistic examination. The ballistic expert report is yet to be finalised. Once investigations are concluded, action will be taken against the KWS officers found culpable in the fatal shooting.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, regarding when the killers will be arrested, given that similar incident happened in Nakuru County; as I said, investigations commenced immediately. An inquiry was forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) via the number provided dated January 2025.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 50

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this is a very serious matter.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 52

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Services, Senate.

already introduced the livestock branding, microchipping and digital database to facilitate tracing and recovery of stolen animals.

with community elders, religious leaders, and local administrators to promote conflict resolution, discourage the territory attacks and foster long-term reconciliation among warring communities.

the National Police Reservists (NPRs), to ensure that they can respond effectively.

such as drones, mine resistant, and ambush-protected vehicles.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on part three, on whether the Government can consider adoption and implementation of modern technology, I would like to respond as follows-

The National Police Service established a committee to oversee the implementation of GIS-based livestock tracking system, in collaboration with the consultancy firm, Jibu Cyber Solutions, which was engaged to develop necessary software and infrastructure for livestock registration, movement tracking and ownership verification.

The system has been proposed for rollout in three counties in the Rift Valley and four counties in the Eastern Region. The process has reached the advanced stage with public participation plan to allow Jibu Cyber Solutions to conduct a proof of concept.

This will test the feasibility, impact, and adaptability of GIS-based cattle tracking technology, which will be integrated with real-time monitoring. Once fully implemented, the solution will be linked to the existing police service infrastructure at the Integrated Control and Command Centre, IC3, to enhance security and response to livestock theft incidents.

On part IV, regarding mechanisms that can be implemented to enhance collaboration between Turkana County Security Agencies and neighbouring counties to enforce livestock identification policies and ensure seamless livestock tracking and recovery, I would like to respond as follows;

The Government acknowledges the importance of livestock marking for identification and monitoring in the banditry -prone areas, as well as the need for inter- county collaboration in enforcing livestock identification policies and ensuring efficient tracking and recovery of stolen livestock. Our Ministry in collaboration with the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock Department formed a Joint Committee to oversee the implementation of a GIS-based livestock tracking system.

Additionally, to strengthen coordination, various mechanisms have been recommended to enhance cooperation, streamline livestock identification and improve recovery efforts. They include –

Services, Senate.

on cattle rustlers, among others.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Sen. Chute, you have the first question.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I am shocked to hear the answer from the Cabinet Secretary telling this Hon. House that IDPs in Marsabit County were resettled, compensated and bursaries given to them.

The Cabinet Secretary is misled by being told that these people have been resettled. I want the Cabinet Secretary to provide evidence that shows that those IDPs were compensated, resettled and given bursaries and by who. As far as I know, there were no bursaries given to IDPs and no settlements at all. So, if there is any evidence--- The Cabinet Secretary cannot tell this House---

Sen. Abdul Haji

Sen. Chute, you realise we do not have much time. We have understood your question. Please, let us allow other Senators to ask their questions.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, give me 30 seconds to conclude.

Sen. Abdul Haji

No, Senator, you have taken long enough. We have understood the question.

Services, Senate. same. He said the curfew has been removed, but up to now, the traders are suffering from highway robbery in that road.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you. Let us allow the Cabinet Secretary to reply to those four questions. Then, we will take some more supplementaries.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. On Sen. Chute's response, I was clear that we do not have money for compensation. However, with the support of National Government Constituency Development Fund

(NG-CDF)

among others, some of the affected have been favoured in terms of bursaries, including bursaries from the county government.

In addition to that, since we do not have money for resettling people, as the statement indicates, the encouragement was to make the conditions better for people to go back to their manyattas for security operations and then give them a chance to go back. As a result of the same, a good number of them have gone back. A few are yet to go back. On the evidence of the same, it can be provided to the Hon. Senator in writing.

On the question asked by Hon. Beatrice Ogola, we have been and will continue being gender sensitive on disaster response. If you see what the Government did last year, a lot of focus was on issues that are going to affect the specific needs of women and children and this will continue. We will continue perfecting our responses based on the experience we get every year.

I believe that gender-based sensitive measures are continually going to be revised to ensure that we are responsive and that we are effectively responding to disasters. Regarding Sen. Mungatana's question about the Directorate of Criminal Investigation (DCI) , we have a financial and capacity challenge at the DCI, and we are working to address that issue because there is a backlog. As you heard from my report earlier, the situation in Kirinyaga and the Tana River is still waiting for the ballistic report to come out.

However, on my last visit to the DCI office, they made certain requests that we are trying to factor into the incoming budget. I believe that we should expedite the process because these are 23 guns, so you have to match each one until you find the one that was owned or used by this particular officer.

Finally, on Sen. Lomenen's question, we will assess the security situation. We continuously receive intelligence reports about the situation between Turkana and West Pokot, including recent activities around mining areas in Aro and the border. We still have a dicey situation in some cases, but we will lift the ban as soon as we are ready to do so, and we can work together with local leaders.

Thank you.

Sen. Ogola

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Sen. Joe Nyutu, ask your question in under one minute.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I am just following up on the question by Sen. Murango, question number one, about the actions that the Ministry took following the killing of two people. The Cabinet Secretary has responded and said that they introduced patrols, special operations, and many others.

Sen. Mungatana, MGH

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Cabinet Secretary told us that on the incident of Tana River in Kone, 23 guns were taken for ballistic examination and the report has not come out. I wanted him to tell us the capacity at the ballistic examinations place. What is the problem? Since January, we are now heading towards March. In fact, very soon we will be four months down the road. What is happening in the ballistic examinations place? Can he do something because this issue has caused a lot of tension in Tana River?

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Senator. Sen. Lomenen, proceed.

Sen. Lomenen

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary when he will lift the curfew between West Pokot and Turkana Counties? The former Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration did the

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 54

Sen. Lomenen

Sen. Wakili Sigei, proceed to ask your question in under one minute.

Sen. Abdul Haji

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. In his response to Sen. Hamida's question, the Hon. Cabinet Secretary referred to a reallocation of the funds that had been requested to renovate Nyayo House. I do not know whether the hon. The Cabinet Secretary is aware that the basement of that particular building, which is actually an exit and entry to the lifts, is in a sorry state. Water or sewage substances are leaking, posing serious health hazards.

Secondly and lastly, does the Cabinet Secretary, in his comment about the Maraga Task Force recommendation, have plans to implement that particular report, and if so, when will that be implemented in the police force?

Sen. Abdul Haji

Those are two questions, Senator. Sen. Mandago, proceed to ask the final question.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Cabinet Secretary. It looks like there are too many incidents associated with Kenya Wildlife Services officers. We had an incident in Nakuru and Tana River Counties. Your Ministry should probably focus a little bit on the officers.

Finally, I request that the Cabinet Secretary visit Marsabit to assess the situation.

March 5, 2025 SENATE DEBATES 55