March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1 Wednesday, 4th March, 2015

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, in the last Session, I moved a notice of Motion and then I was unable to proceed to the next stage because of the fact that the Session ended. When this new Session started, I approached the Clerk’s Office to reinstate that Motion. Eventually, I signed off in terms of reviving it.

To my surprise, I later got communication from the Clerk’s Office that my Motion---

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I seek your indulgence; if the Clerk could allow you to listen to me, I would appreciate.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for listening to me. I was later made to understand that the House Business Committee somewhat established that this Motion will incur some money. Therefore, they decided to refer it to the Committee on Budget and Appropriations. I find it curious in the sense that this same Motion went through the House Business Committee in the last Session, which duly approved it. I went ahead and moved a notice of Motion on the Floor of this House. How come in this new Session, that same Motion is now deemed not to qualify to come through this House unless it is approved by the Budget and Appropriations Committee?

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Order hon. Wandayi! I want the Leader of the Majority Party to be keen on this one because he might be the one to respond to it. Maybe, you need to start afresh hon. Wandayi.

I will hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Leader of the Majority Party is not listening. What is happening, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker?

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Do not worry. Do not police the entire House, hon. Wandayi. Just proceed.

I moved a notice of Motion; a very important Motion that was going to benefit Kenyans in general in the last Session. The last Session ended before the Motion could come up for debate on the Floor of the House. I came back in this new Session to revive the Motion. When it went to the House Business Committee this time round, the Committee decreed that it had to go through the Committee on Budget and Appropriations because it touched on money issues.

What has changed between the last Session and this Session that the same House Business Committee could have different opinions on the same matter? That Motion did not change, not even a comma has changed. Now, it is required to go through the Committee on Budget and Appropriations before it can come to this House and yet, in the last Session, I was given approval and went ahead and gave a notice of Motion. There is a total contradiction on this matter. Therefore, I need guidance and clarification.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) :

Okay. Well said, hon.

Otherwise, I will be having a feeling that, perhaps, I am being oppressed on account of my position on very weighty issues touching on Kenyans who have no voice.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Hon. Wandayi, you have said it and the Leader of the Majority Party is listening.

My position on issues that touch on Kenyans who have no voice! The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Order, hon. Wandayi! Ordinarily, I would have simply asked you to go to the Table Office in Room No.8 and start the process again. You know that after the Session lapsed, so did your Motion. Of course, there are two new issues which you have brought in, which I believe the Leader of the Majority Party will respond to. The Leader of the Majority Party, let us hear from you.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. First, I want to confirm that this House will be the last House to oppress hon. Wandayi. He should be worried about other forces outside this Chamber; other forces in his constituency,

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, it is like hon. Wandayi knew what happened in the House Business Committee last night. Hon. Jakoyo will agree with me. We have agreed that even before a Motion comes for the Speaker to sign, serious due diligence must be done, which was not being done before. We have very competent departments of Legal and Legislative and Procedural Services, which need to do serious diligence so that, by the time it is coming to the Speaker and the House Business Committee for approval, the Speaker knows that the Bill will go to the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Last night we directed that the Clerk’s Office, through the Director of Committees, should write to the relevant Committees and inform them that the matter is coming before them and they should note it. But because hon. Wandayi has raised the issue, I will follow the track and bring an answer to the House on behalf of the House Business Committee tomorrow afternoon, when I am doing the normal communication. I

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Bill is at the First Reading stage. I intervene because I had raised an issue with my Motion on the ranking of schools on the basis of their performance in national examination. The Motion is supposed to have been on the Order Paper of today, but I have been advised otherwise. I have discussed the matter with hon. Midiwo, and I have been told that it will be the first one next Wednesday.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (hon. Cheboi) : Thank you. You have answered yourself.

On a point of order. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : What is your point of order Leader of the Majority Party?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, the way hon. Jakoyo is being quoted by hon. Wamalwa, it seems like he is running away from what transpired in the House Business Committee (HBC) meeting of last night. Let me be bold enough to tell hon. Wamalwa what happened to his Motion. His Motion is about ranking and there are seven commissions, including the last one we discussed. He will appear before the Committee---

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Order, Leader of the Majority Party! That matter is settled. Hon. Wamalwa is satisfied. We do not have to go that direction.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : What is your point of order hon. Midiwo? Is it on the same one? We have not even started debating this Motion.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I just needed your guidance because I wanted to raise an issue on a matter which is on the Order Paper. I had consulted with you on the same.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Which one is it?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, it is Order No.11. I had requested you to, through Standing Order No.1, give direction on the same because we have Members here who sit in the Members’ Welfare Committee, and the meeting is going on. Therefore, I seek your indulgence.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Hon. Midiwo, your request is very reasonable. The only unfortunate bit is that the Mover of the Motion is not in the House. As you know, he had started moving the Motion. In his absence, it becomes extremely difficult for me to intervene. We would have been happier with him pronouncing himself, in terms of what you stated. Let us hear from you. What is it?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I urge you to indulge me. I also notice that the Mover of the said Motion is not in the House. If the Mover was to be here now, because he appeared before the HBC last night and requested to be allowed to withdraw the Motion, we advised him to appear here and do it procedurally. However, he is not here. As a Member of the family of one of the said victims, I was going to raise this issue anyway. What we want you to guide us on – it is true that hon. T. J. Kajwang’ is the brother of the late hon. Sen. Otieno Kajwang,’ – is our feeling that the issues surrounding this Motion be discussed with the families of the victims before it is debated here.

You realize that the Member who brought the Motion is not a representative of any of the dead people. He has not also done it at the request of any of the family members. I am under instructions from my party and from my family to say that they do not wish this Motion to be before this House at this particular moment. All I am requesting you to do is to stand down the Motion until such a time the Mover comes and we agree, so that he can ably represent our wish. That is all I am requesting.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Hon. Midiwo, hon. Ken Obura moved the Motion on the 25th February, 2015. The Motion was seconded and the Question proposed. That is an issue which has already taken off. I totally agree with you in terms of the fact that you consulted with him and arrived at some specific agreement. I trust that this is the true position. However, my hands are tied in terms of doing much on the matter. I am sure that at the point when hon. Obura will be here to pursue this matter, we will be able to solve it. It is a bit difficult at this point in time for me to do what you are requesting. You talked about having instructions from the party and the families of the deceased persons. I am very sympathetic, especially to the families. Unfortunately, this is something that has already taken off. I wish we had started discussing it at the beginning. Even at this point in time, we should be able to sort it out. But let us have the Mover around. I would have done it very easily in his presence, because he needs to pronounce himself on the matter. Once a Motion has been moved and seconded, obviously, it becomes the property of the House. Being a seasoned Member of this House, I am sure that you see the sense in what I have said.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. This is a subject that is personal to me. I am unable to give much information, except to follow-up what hon. Jakoyo Midiwo has said. The information that is before us this morning is that the Mover Member was requested to appear before the Assembly this morning to pronounce himself on the matter.

Secondly, I have had the advantage of speaking to the hon. Member, who pledged to be in this House to make the pronouncement. The problem is that it is within every Member’s right to attend a National Assembly Sitting or not to. Whatever motivated him not to attend is up to him.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to refer you to Standing Order No.58, which says that after a Question of a Motion has been proposed, the Motion shall be deemed to be in the possession of the House, and that such Motion shall not be withdrawn without leave of the House. This, therefore, tells me that the Motion is the property of the House. It is the plenary of this House which can make a decision by a resolution which way a Motion is to be treated, except that it cannot be withdrawn without leave of the House. Once properly put before the House, a Motion becomes something we can pronounce ourselves on. It does not become an issue of the Mover himself deciding how the Motion goes. This is different from a Private Member’s Bill. A Private Member’s Bill is usually sponsored by a Member, and it would require his consent to withdraw it or do otherwise. A Motion that has been moved and seconded becomes a property of the House and cannot be withdrawn without the leave of the House.

Therefore, arising from hon. Midiwo’s request that you invoke Standing Order No.1, I heard the Member to be asking that this Motion be deferred. We are asking the plenary of this House to decide that this matter be deferred until such a time that there is enough consultations on the subject.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : That is a better way of handling the matter. Hon. Members, what we are going to do is that we will proceed with Order No. 9. We will skip, for the time being, Order No.10 and go to Order No.11. I believe that the hon. Members will have thought through this particular issue. Of course, any Member who would want to request that the matter be deferred, we will deal with it at that point in time. Maybe, you should look at it in the meantime, so that you are not ambushed. Allow us to proceed to Order No.9. After this particular Order, we will come back to Order No.11. Before we do that, let us have the Leader of the Majority Party to shed some light on what transpired in the HBC yesterday.

The last will be the hon. Leader of the Majority Party. But we will come back to it and, at that point, you will be able to make decisions, Members. Proceed.

Hon Temporary Deputy Speaker, hon. Ken Obura walked to the House Business Committee (HBC) under no duress and security guards. He said that he will come this morning to withdraw his Motion. I am sure when we reach that place--- Hon. Ken Obura lives very far in Karen unlike some of us who live around here. It could

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Thank you. We have canvassed this. I rise under Standing Order No. 96 (1) which says:

“A Member who wishes to postpone to some future occasion the further discussion of a question which has been proposed from the Chair may claim to move “That, the debate be now adjourned”, or, in Committee of the whole House “That, the Chairperson do report progress”. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I do so and I ask hon. Eseli to second. Hon. (Dr.) Simiyu seconded.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : I will give two Members who want to speak to this and then I will put the Question. I heard the hon. Leader of the Majority Party make some very strong sentiments. Probably to even help you further, I will increase to two per side. I can see the hon. Member from Suba on my left side.

Hon. Ng’ongo: Thank you. I want to support the Motion moved by hon. Jakoyo that we adjourn the debate on this Motion. I know that all of us are Members of the National Assembly and we represent national interests. We have interests in every constituency. It is important that as Members, before we bring Motions that touch on families and by extension emotions, we need to be very careful. I am not so sure about the “hot potato” and the possibility of hon. Ken Obura losing his seat or otherwise. I do not know what research hon. A.B. Duale has done to find that out. Maybe, he carried out an opinion poll or he used the intelligence branch being the Leader of the Majority Party. He probably shares intelligence briefs. I do not know how much he has done in Kisumu Central. It is important that this Motion be adjourned for further consultations. But I also want to put it this way: I understand and appreciate hon. Ken Obura’s concerns. He is one of my party members whom we recently made to pay for some of his decisions, including this one. This is a very clear indication that ---

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) :

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I wanted to say --- The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : That is actually not true at all, hon. Mbadi. At the point at which you did whatever you did, hon. Ken Obura’s Motion was not in the possession of the House, unless we are talking about other Motions but not this one.

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I did not say in the House. I said some of the decisions he makes- -- You know hon. Ken Obura has no committee. I would understand that he is really struggling to get a committee to sit in and possibly Chair---.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Now you can see the difficulties that Members get into when they are de-whipped from particular committees.

Hon. Ng’ongo: Yes. The solution is one. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : I hope the leaders of various parties are looking at this with concern, but proceed.

I want to offer a solution. Just be disciplined. If you belong to a party, just champion and support the interests of the party. The day you get tired of the party, you simply resign from that party and seek re-election. That is what hon. Raila Odinga did in December 1996---

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Order, Member for Suba. Let us hear from the precious lady from Kiambu.

I doubt whether she can detect whether I am out of order but, anyway---

Order, hon. Member! Order!

Ahsante, Mheshimiwa Naibu Spika wa Muda. Sijui ni kwa nini Mheshimiwa Mbadi anaona ni kama sina Hoja ya Nidhamu.

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I will stop there because I was offering wise counsel as a senior Member of this House and also as a Chairman of a serious party, CORD.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Those accolades can be left for another time or said out of this House. You support it and that is fine. Before I come to the Leader of the Majority Party because I know he will have to speak on this one, let me give the hon. Member for Emurua Dikirr.

Where is Emurua Dikirr?

It is really funny when a Member of this House does not even know where Emurua Dikirr is or what Emurua Dikirr is. That is because it is very famous and one of the greatest constituencies in this Republic.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Let us go back to Article 96 (2) .

She is asking where Emurua Dikirr is located. It is in the southern part of Rift Valley, Narok County.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : We will do that when---

I wish to reluctantly support the sentiments. We must understand that the Members who are mentioned in this particular Motion are not just private Members. I will only support the Motion because of one private person who died in unclear circumstances; the son of the former Prime Minister. He is also included here. As for Sen. Mutula Kilonzo and Sen. Kajwang’, those were public figures, great men who were serving this Republic and held elective positions. They were no longer considered private citizens but public properties. Therefore, I would like to say that we have had several deaths of that magnitude. People have died under mysterious circumstances. Therefore, it should not be the business of this House to leave them die like that. We need to know the circumstances behind their deaths, whether they were assassinated or they died natural deaths. The great men who died were friends of everybody. I would, therefore, just support reluctantly and say: Let us give it time so that we can come and do a very thorough investigation into their deaths. We also need to look at those other assassinations that we have always talked about and yet, they have never been unraveled. I wish to support the Motion.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Hon. Maanzo, the Floor is yours.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity.

I also want to support what is before the Floor that, this matter be consulted further before the Motion is debated. The reason is that my former Senator, the late. Mutula Kilonzo, is mentioned here. I have information that this was not in consultations with the family. I want to believe that although those people were public figures, they also came from homes and families. It is important that they get the first priority of being consulted before a matter of this nature is brought to the Floor of the House.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to oppose the adjournment of this Motion. I believe that when hon. Ken Obura came with the Motion, there was a reason to it. There have been some allegations outside there that the causes of the deaths of prominent people might have been caused by some people or other means. I suggest that we continue so that we can know the truth on what killed them.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : I know there is a lot of interest in this particular one and also my eyes tell me that probably, hon. Obura is not too far from the premises of this House. Well, not that it is particularly important because----- Leader of the Majority Party, the Floor is yours.

I am sure even if he is not very far, he must be following the proceedings of Parliament in his car. However, I support the adjournment of this debate as provided for in Standing Order No. 96. Standing Order No. 96 (3) can even give you more powers as the Speaker to even decline it based on the reasons given by Members. I want to take this House down the memory lane. In the 9th Parliament which I did not serve but hon. Amina Abdalla and many others had the privilege to serve, there was a man called Gor Sungu. He brought a similar Motion - a select committee to investigate the death of the former Foreign Minister, hon. (Dr.) Robert Ouko. It was also a very hot business to deal with. Hon. Paul Muite and many others were Members.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : Are you implying that hon. Gor Sungu who also came from the Constituency of hon---

No! I have not come to that. Today, you are really debating with us. Hon. Gor Sungu went on with that issue but later, and I want to confirm this, a Senior Counsel whom I think was Mr. Oraro, took him to court for defamation. That is because it was done within the precincts of the last Parliament. The Parliamentary Service Commission in the then 10th Parliament had to pay the damage cost on behalf of Gor Sungu. I remember the joke was: When he would land in Kisumu Airport, people would ask “Is it hon. Sungu or hon. Tuju?” because hon. Tuju also had his own issues in the then Parliament.

I totally agree with the Standing Order which says if the Speaker is of the opinion that the dilatory Motion is an abuse of the proceedings of the House, the Speaker may forthwith put the Question which we are going to do. I want to further ask you, please, decline in your own wisdom. Decline to even propose it because, in my opinion, it is an abuse of the proceedings of the House. This is a family matter. Whether I die through an accident or many other things is none of your business. However, the decision is yours. You can either propose the Question or not. Hon. Ken Obura should do what he promised the House Business Committee last night. He should be honest to himself, walk to the Chamber and when we reach Order No. 11, he be given the microphone to withdraw. Why should he take us through all these matters?

I support the Motion.

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Thank you, hon. Speaker. I spoke before this Motion came to the National Assembly. Now it is here. I just want to express myself for the HANSARD. Looking at this Motion, there are a lot of things. However, the second part reads as follows:-

“---;cognizant of the fact that national leaders and their families form an integral part of national-being that builds and helps in forging unity;”

It means that this Motion is predicated upon the acceptance and appreciation of the family. The family is an integral part of the reasons that will be advanced either in the Motion or in the subsequent resolution of the House. I have said that, as a family, the Member did not consult any of us to let us know that this Motion will be coming. It is the right of every Member to bring any Motion that he or she feels is of national importance. However, when you have an issue which arises out of a personal matter such as this--- Now, we are not dealing with the substance of the issues around the Motion. We are particularly discussing the procedure by which a Member can, therefore, place a Motion before the House. To neglect the views of the family is very provocative and insensitive. It is actually very insulting to the family to think that someone may have the wherewithal or the best opinion on how to deal with a matter that can be dealt with elsewhere.

Without putting a lot of emotions into this issue, although we have the right to bring any Motion as Members of Parliament, we cannot use the Floor of this House to be popular. You cannot take a subject which you think will make headlines and bring it on the Floor of the House just because you want to be popular with your people, or you want to change the colour and character of what people think about you. What concerns me more is that I am not only a member of this family, but I am also an elected Member and part of this National Assembly. Even if this Member would have avoided everybody else, it would be courteous to come and talk to me as the Member for Ruaraka and say: “This issue is coming up in the House. As a colleague, I want to tell you that I have interest to raise it.” The fact that the Member has not talked to me means that I mean nothing to him. It is very provocative to me as the Member for Ruaraka. So, if we proceed with this issue the way it is going, it may not augur well with the mutual respect and coordination that we should have as Members of the National Assembly.

I, therefore, support the Motion by hon. Jakoyo Midiwo. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Cheboi) : I think that will be it, hon. Members. I will, therefore, put the Question.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 14 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE

Committee on Labour and Social Welfare and the second one is the Member for

Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be deleted. First and foremost, we need to know the genesis of why we need to amend the Children Act. My concerns are very specific. The simple reason is how the rights of a child need to be respected as enshrined in our Constitution. Article 53 (1) (e) clearly says that:-

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I am referring to the Constitution. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Okay. Just allow me to be with you on the Constitution. Yes, Article 53. Thank you. You may proceed.

These are fundamental rights which have been given to the voiceless child through our Constitution. Where the children cannot speak for themselves, the Constitution speaks for them. The Constitution goes further and guides us on how to deal with this issue of the child. Article 53 (2) clearly says that:-

“A child’s best interests are of paramount importance in every matter concerning the child.”

The drafters of the Constitution had very clear minds when they included the interests of the child in Article 53 (2) . That is because of where Kenya belongs and the international treaties Kenya has signed. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is very clear that in case of any issues, the best interest of the child will be determined by the proceedings through a due judicial process.

The UN Charter is very clear that the best interest of the child remains with the mother until the child is over 18 years. That makes us think why we have to deal with issues which the courts are mandated to deal with. For instance, where there is abuse of the child by the mother, then the father can go to court. Where there is abuse of the child by the father, the mother can go to court and secure the best interest of the child. The Member is trying to get the best interest of the child from where it has been placed internationally, and put it into the Act to make sure that the child is protected.

I am coming from a human rights perspective whereby the child is voiceless and has no defender. The defender of the child is the Constitution and the United Nations Charter. Despite anything else, let us do justice to the voiceless; and the voiceless in this case is the child. So, I propose that we delete Clauses 2, 3, 4---

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

(Hon. Kajwang’)

: Order! I allowed you to talk a little elaborately because I saw you were proposing to delete all these clauses. You should have concerned yourself with Clause 2 because that is what we are considering at the moment. That, notwithstanding, you have given good information.

So that I can know how we are going on here or, maybe, this is how you have chosen to go, I have requests and interventions here. I take it that the requests are the order that you are requesting to speak about this amendment. The Leader of the Majority Party, I will give you a chance, definitely. You are on a point of order. Yes, the Leader of the Majority Party on a point of order.

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On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I need you to give direction based on what hon. Mule has said. Going by Article 53 (e) of the Constitution, this Bill in Clauses 2 and 3 is trying to amend the Constitution.

No! No!

If you could protect me, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Hon. Kang’ata is behind me. I want to go on record that, first and foremost, let us declare our interest. We must declare our interest. We are not in the House to make laws to fix our domestic problems.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Well spoken, I hear you.

In view of Article 53 (e) and Clauses 2 and 3, we need you to give direction before we even move further. Being a Member of the Justice and Legal Affairs Committee, you can give us direction. You should ask us whether we are trying to amend Article 53 (e) of the Constitution by repealing Clauses 2 and 3.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Thank you, very much. I hear you.

Let me finish. The powers of the child are protected in that Sub-article (e) , whether there was marriage or no marriage. I want hon. Kaluma to hear.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : That is okay, the Leader of the Majority Party. Just a minute! Can we go by some order? That is a valid point of order. Let us process that point of order and dispose of it. I have heard representation from the Leader of the Majority Party on the issue of whether the Chair can give directions as to whether Clause 2 (3) is in conflict with Article 53 (1) (e) . I will take one representation from this side and another one from the other side. Then I will give direction on the clause. Member for Ugenya, you have the Floor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. This is not a small matter and we need to avoid anything to do with going personal on this. Article 53 is very clear. If you read it in totality, all the things that hon. Mule has talked about are there in black and white. If you look at that same Article 53 (2) , it is very clear on what the courts will do. The courts will be required to ensure that a child’s best interests are of paramount importance in every matter concerning the child. So, you cannot purport to say that if you do what hon. Kaluma is trying to do, you will not take care of the child’s best interest. It is already in black and white. The import of hon. Kaluma’s proposal is that---

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : No! No! Order! Order! I just want you to respond directly to what the Leader of the Majority Party has said as to whether Article 53 is unconstitutional or not. That is if we go back to what the Member for Matungulu is saying.

It cannot be unconstitutional because in that particular amendment, we are trying to take care of a child who has, for a long time in Kenya, been forgotten. This is the child that is born out of wedlock before the parents get married.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : All right. Member for Kiharu, you want to speak to the Motion on deletion. So, I will ask you to speak. I want to recognise the Member for Kipipiri on the constitutionality or otherwise of the clauses. I have seen your request, but it is on the main Motion, which I will come to.

Member for Kipipiri.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, on this one, I wish to take a different position from the Leader of the Majority Party. I probably may not be very happy with what hon. Kaluma is doing, but he is trying to align the Act with the Constitution. The Act is creating two levels of responsibility. It is removing the initial responsibility from the father and giving it to the mother. Section 24 of the Act that Clause 2 seeks to delete and replace is actually the one that is unconstitutional. What the Leader of the Majority Party has said is completely opposite of the situation.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : That is very helpful. Member for Nairobi County.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The issue of unconstitutionality is a very sensitive discussion. I would request that we understand the import of what hon. Mule wants to do vis-a-vis what hon. Kaluma wants to do. You need to guide the House because, as I speak, apart from the lawyers who can, maybe, quickly catch what is at stake here, we need to honestly understand. So, once you have listened to both sides, I would urge you to give your position on the import of the amendment. For example, what would the deletion mean to hon. Kaluma’s amendment?

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Thank you. This is very easy.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Member for Ndhiwa, you cannot have a point of order on a point of order. There is already a point of order that we are dealing with. Can we dispose of this one first?

This is an issue that we can easily dispose of. First of all, we are in Committee of the whole House. It means that this Bill has been processed through the normal conveyor belt in the House. It has gone through pre-publication and scrutiny. Therefore, questions of constitutionality, or otherwise, have been carefully and meticulously handled. It then came to this House for First Reading and Second Reading and was debated extensively. Hon. Members made their views on pros and cons known. We are now in the Committee of the whole House to simply clean up the language and the text of the Bill.

However, as to whether it is unconstitutional, I agree with the Member for Kipipiri that what the Bill seeks to do should conform to the Constitution. Article 53 (1)

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I have a card but it is not working. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : I will give you the microphone. Talk in very few words. We are not debating this Bill at all. You remember that we have gone through the debate on this Bill.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. It is unfortunate that hon. Mule did not consult me before the proposed deletion of my amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, you have spoken to the matter I needed to clarify to the nation which, indeed, I did through the previous stages. Article 50 (1) (e) of the Constitution speaks to how a child should be taken care of. The most important thing is that it matters not whether the parents of that child are married. It matters not and they should be treated equally. The good thing about this Bill is that in our practice, the proposed amendments to a Bill are published.

I would like to refer hon. Members to page 2237 of the Bill, in terms of how the Children Act seeks to treat those constitutional provisions. I would like hon. Members to look at the current Section 24 (2) , so that we can have a quick concession on this important matter. The provisions relating to children born within a marriage are there. If you go to Section 24 (3) , those are the provisions relating to children born out of marriage. Do you see any difference? What I have done is to pick word for word the provisions for children born within marriage and given them to children born out of marriage. It is word for word, in the manner the Constitution prescribes.

I am saying that you have the duty to provide for your children in the same manner. Children are vulnerable persons, whether or not their parents are married. That is what the Bill is seeking to provide for.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : All right, that is very clear. Can we now have the Member for Kiharu? You do not have to raise your hands, hon. Members. Once you have pressed the request button, I am able to see you.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I am going to express the effect of hon. Kaluma’s proposal, which I support 100 per cent, in very plain language.

Before the enactment of the new Constitution, people used to rely on the Children Act to vindicate the rights of children. If a child was born out of wedlock, that child tended to be disadvantaged. The person who was escaping liability was somehow favoured. Why? The first thing the court would ask you was, “Were you two people married or had you cohabitated for more than one year?” If a child was born and there

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 19

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I just wanted to rise--- The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : First of all, quote the Standing Order on the basis of which you are raising the point of order.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am rising on the issues that the Member for Kiharu talked about, which, for me, have constitutional implications.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Order, Member for Ndhiwa! Chairpersons have been criticised for not enforcing the Standing Orders. We came out from the retreat with one resolve – enforcing the Standing Orders. We begin by asking you to quote the Standing Order, which is the premise on which you raise a point of order. Start there.

Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am still trying to find the relevant Standing Order on which I have risen. I am requesting you to understand.

I am trying to find the relevant Standing Order. It is with regard to the issues that the hon. Member for Kiharu has raised, and which I believe have a constitutional implication.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I will appreciate if you guide me on that. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Okay. Kindly proceed but after you are through, let me know which Standing Order you are standing on.

Thank you for your indulgence, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am rising with regard to what the hon. Member for Kiharu says in his agreement with hon. Kaluma. My understanding of Article 53 of the Constitution is that it ought to

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 20

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : You seem to be contributing to the debate. If you are contributing to the debate, just hold your guns. I am going to give you the chance. But on the point of order, you should just tell us: “Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman Sir, I rise on a point of order and I think so and so is consulting in loud tones.”

On a point order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Is the Member for Kiharu in order to tell the House that Section 24 of the Children Act, as it is now, is not in tandem with Article 53 (1) and (2) of the Constitution?

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Well, I want to rule you out of order. I will come back to you and give you time to contribute. Your logic is substance for a contribution. I do not think the hon. Member is misleading the House by reading a section of a law. Your point of order is: Is the hon. Member misleading the House? I do not think so. I think he is interpreting the law and the Constitution in his own way. That cannot be misleading the House and I, therefore, rule you out of order for the time being.

Who had the microphone? They had just finished and I was on my right hand side? I will have only two people and I put the Question. It is not an issue that should take us much time.

Member for Narok, I want to listen to the female voice in the debate. It is a request on this issue of the amendment by Member for Matungulu.

Member for Ndhiwa, prepare yourself because I am coming to you after hon. Tuya.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I believe we are still trying to clarify the issue.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : You are contributing as to whether you support the deletion as proposed by Member for Matungulu or you oppose it.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I stand to oppose the proposal to delete clauses 2, 3, 4 and 5 of the Bill as proposed by hon. Kaluma. You will realise that what we are speaking to is a constitutional issue and the Constitution is very clear. I wish to allay fears. We might be having a mix-up, and thinking when we talk about parental responsibility we are talking about custody of the child. These are two different things.

When it comes to custody of the child, the law is very clear. It has to go through a legal process where the best interests of the child are given primacy. What hon. Kaluma’s amendments intend to do is to align the Children Act with the Constitution, and also make sure that the prevalence of irresponsibility - I do not want to say that irresponsibility is with any one parent - when it comes to care of children is a thing of the past.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 21

Kalumaa! The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Hon. Kaluma, take that with a pinch of salt.

I am sure that the venerable lady is not imputing improper motive on hon. Kaluma.

Member for Ndhiwa, can you prosecute your presentation to support or oppose the amendment.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I regret that the last time you caught me flat-footed. I would like to support hon. Mule’s amendments. I have agonised over this issue for a long time due to several reasons.

I respect what the hon. Member for Narok has said on this particular Bill. But as I stated before, Article 53 of the Constitution speaks to two parts. My understanding of the Constitution is that you cannot read it in isolation. There are two parts; the first part highlights what is said in Article 53 (e) , that parental care and protection is from either mother or father. Article 53 (2) is the most important, it speaks to the best interests principle of the child. This is what Section 25 of the Children Act also speaks to, the best interests principle. Whatever you do in Article 53 (1) of the Constitution is okay but Article 53 (2) requests you to be doing it in the best interests of the child.

What is the best interest principle? The best interest principle is simply saying three things: If you have a child out of wedlock, what is the best interests principle? There could be instances where the father and mother are not in agreement. Who then is best placed to determine that best interests principle?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, are you hoping to intervene? The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : No. Just finish your contribution.

I saw you hold the microphone and wondered whether I was going to be interrupted.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (hon. Kajwang) : Just finish your contribution.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, there are two things I want to distinguish: Article 53 (1) of the Constitution is very clear. It sets the parameters under

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 22

You are now listening to the mind of a runner and not a lawyer.

You either oppose or---

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, protect me from the Member for Ugenya.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, with all due respect, I also rise to oppose the proposed amendments by the hon. Member for Matungulu.

The amendment by hon. Kaluma is a very good amendment, because those of us who do not have a legal background, what it simply means is that we are sharing parental responsibility. It could not have been said better than what the hon. Member for Narok said, that we are not talking about custody here. We are talking about responsibility and he has done it well. Maybe what we should do as we debate this matter is to be dispassionate about what we know about some people. It is like some of us are guilty as charged; so, what you bring, even if the intention is good, it tends to be clouded in what people perceive your background to be.

I oppose.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 23

Withdraw!

- THAT Clause 3 of the Bill be deleted. Basically what hon. Kaluma is not alluding to in this House - we might not have had enough consultation on this issue--- We need to separate two issues, the best interests of the child and the issue of the custody of the child. What it alludes to is very clear. It is that we are looking at the entire issue of the custody of the child. I will still---

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (hon. Kajwang’) : Are you relevant to Clause 3?

Clause 3 is about where the principal Act is amended to repeal Section 25 of No. 8 of 2001. It is very clear that where a child’s father and mother were not married to each other at the time of the child’s birth, and have not subsequently married each other—

Equal! The Temporary Deputy Chairman

(Hon. Kajwang’)

: All right. Thank you very much.

(Question, that the words to be left out,

be left out, put and negatived)

Clause 4

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Mover, we are on Clause

Withdraw!

- That Clause 4 of the Bill be deleted. Due to the scenarios in the House---

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 24

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, what I am trying to say is this: It is a bit unfortunate that we, as a House, are doing something which is fundamentally wrong internationally and locally. What we need to do--- I have said very clearly that we are legislators and we will have the opportunity to revisit this issue---

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : You remember you are moving your amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, that is why I am saying that if you look at Section 4 of the Act it, it says that more than one person may have parental responsibility for the same child at the same time.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Hon. Member for Matungulu, you are on Clause 4. Hon. Kaluma had proposed that the principal Act be amended by repealing Section 26. If you go to Section 26 it says that there is an agreement which will have affect on the form prescribed by the Chief Justice and so on.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, why I did not want to repeal this Section is very clear. We are trying to take powers away from the courts to determine the responsibilities and placing them within the Act. What it means is that the best interests principle of the child - I still stand by that - is very clear. It is at the time of conflict that hon. Kang’ata and any other lawyer will go and represent that voiceless child before a court.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

(Hon. Kajwang’)

: Hon. Member for Seme is on a point of order. Remember to quote your Standing Order that you rise on and in one sentence say what is out of order.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I seek guidance and I do not know which Standing Order this is under.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 25

You have not heard me. You have not heard my fear. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : I have heard your point of order.

My fear is this--- The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Is your fear part of a point of order?

If the two are the same, then we see a situation where a father is going to insist that he has equal responsibility; he will then take a one or two- day old baby in his custody. What I know as a paediatrician is that if you separate a child from the mother, they will have the highest chance of dying regardless of what is around them. That is why it is important that, as you are passing this law---

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Thank you very much; will you resume your seat?

Let me tell you--- The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : No! Resume your seat now. We have understood you, paediatrician. Hon. Member for Oljorok, will you rise and explain the difference between custody and responsibility in clear terms and which are not legalistic?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, custody is the actual possession and control of the child. Responsibility is giving parental care like clothes and monetary support to the child. Custody is the actual control and ownership of the child---

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : It cannot get clearer than that. Thank you very much hon. Member for Oljorok. It is very clear now in the paediatrician’s mind, I hope.

Hon. Member for Nyamira, you are now rising to contribute on whether you support the amendment proposed by hon. Member for Matungulu or you oppose it. That is where you are now.

I support the amendment that has been proposed by hon. Mule. Marriage is an institution that I and my partner agree to get into. Once we have entered that institution then we cannot delegate responsibilities thereof. It is automatic and moral. It is a moral right that the child has to be taken care of by both of us. I want us, as a House, to think of a situation where--- You know marriage is not a bed of roses.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : I am having a problem, Member for Nyamira. There is something out of order. You are being irrelevant, I think. Now, let me help you. Resume your seat. I am going to help you and give you the microphone again. This is also a learning process.

We are considering the amendment proposed. The Member for Matungulu is proposing to amend Clause 4 which simply talks about--- Please, see the parent Act, which is Section 2 (3) (8) . There is something called “parent responsibility agreement”. That is where we are. Should there be an agreement, or not, according to the rules proposed by the Chief Justice? Do not now go outside and discuss things which we have

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 26

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, if you allow me, I am going to confine myself to that. However, remember I really wanted to stand up before, but you did not see me.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : That is how the eyes of the Chair work, anyway.

If you listen to me as a mother, you will see where I am coming from and where we are going. They are following each other from Clauses 2, 3 and 4 going down. After all these have been passed and then you tell me to confine myself to Clause 4, and then I will not be relevant. I have to state what I was saying.

With regard to parental responsibility, why are we opening a way for people to separate or divorce, and then be signing agreements? When I accept to marry you and then we have kids, it is automatic that we need to take care of the interests of our child.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Thank you very much. Member for Matungu.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I oppose the amendment brought by hon. Mule. As a Committee, we did our report and agreed with the amendments brought by hon. Kaluma. If you look at Clause 26, it talks of agreements. Also, the Constitution is very clear. It already states very clearly that the responsibility is equaly shared. So, I do not know what agreements we are going to enter into. The Constitution, renders this Section 26 null and void. So, I oppose what hon. Mule is proposing.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Member for Magarini.

Asante, Bw. Naibu Mwenyekiti wa Muda. Nasimama kupinga hayo mabadiliko kwa sababu Katiba imetupatia uwezo sawa kumsimamia mtoto. Tukimzaa mtoto halafu tuhitilafiane, au tuzae mtoto nje ya ndoa, kisha tuhitilafiane, mimi naona hayo ni masuala ya kuandikishiana tena upya kiasi cha kwamba yule bwana ndiye atakayelemewa na mzigo, kwa sababu tayari mama yuko na mtoto. Ni lazima sasa baba amhakikishie mtoto elimu, chakula, nguo na mahali pa kulala. Katiba, ingawa hivyo, imetupatia uwezo sawa, kwamba sote tumsimamie mtoto maanake ni sisi tuliofanya bidii mpaka tukamleta duniani. Asante.

Clause 5

- THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be deleted. This last one is for amending Section 27 of the same Act, where hon. Kaluma is proposing to delete the following words: “---if he has acquired parental responsibility upon the provision of this Act appearing in (a) ---”

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 27

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. It is important that my colleague here understands that the moment we reject his amendment, the one that was going to give a chance to people to sit down together and contract out of a constitutional responsibility--- The particular section that hon. Kaluma is trying to amend must be amended. The one we have rejected was giving the two a chance to contract or agree.

The clause we are now dealing with is talking about that agreement. If we remove the chance to agree, then, we must, in the subsequent clauses also remove that particular clause. I want Members here to read Section 83 of the Children Act, which deals with issues of custody. It says that the court will look at the interests of the child before it can give custody to either parent. Do not worry about that. I may not like hon. Kaluma’s Bill, but it actually aligns the law with the Constitution. We must reject your proposed amendment, hon. Mule.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : That is All right.

New Clause 5A

- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after Clause 5- Amendment of section 81 of No.8 of 2001 5A. The principal Act is amended in section 83 (1) by—

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 28

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have sought a lot of information and education in the meantime and I find that my fears have been allayed by about 50 per cent. What has come out is that there is a gap that we need to fill in the law. In the case law under the section dealing with child custody, there is nothing that specifically says that at a certain age, the child should preferably be with the mother, unless the mother is unable to take care of the child. My fear is that there could be a possibility that somebody will argue that since we have equal responsibility, I want the child of one day of age. However, I have been assured that in case law, it will not happen and it will be done under the custody law. With that, I am happy until I get more information, in which case I may come back with an amendment. This is something that I am going to do research on.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal, while you are still at the microphone, the Constitution itself is very clear. Do not even go to legislation. The Constitution is self-executionary in respect of this. It says that every child has a right over all those things you have said. In sub-section (2) it says that a child’s best interests are of paramount importance in every matter concerning the child. In questions of custody or responsibility, where the court of law has to rule on who has custody, the court of law will be guided and cannot go away from the best interests of the child. The Constitution says so. Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal, I know that as a paediatrician you may think that mothers, when they have custody, will invariably look after the best interests of the child, which is true in many cases. However, you can also have a mother, who, for some very good reasons, may not undertake that custody and a guardian, not even the father of the child, like you as a paediatrician, may have the custody of a child in line with the best interests of the child.

That has happened to me. A court has brought a child, who is less than six months old to my house. I have been persuaded by that part of the Constitution, but I know that the Constitution is man-made. I still think that we need a statute to address this. I do not think it is what we are discussing now. Let us leave it at that.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : The law cannot be stronger than the Constitution. It is the other way round. The Constitution is stronger than the law.

We may need to amend it. Let us leave that for now.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 29

- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting clause (3) and substituting therefor the following new clause-

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 30

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, much as I agree with the amendment proposed by the Chair of the Departmental Committee, I would have been happier if some of these proposals came out in the regulations. Looking at some of them, like the proposal that says “mobilize and transparently manage public and other financials”; with all due respect to the Committee, a lot of what has been proposed here ought to be a regulation, because in a sense, they cover operational issues – the essence of subsidiary legislation. The primary legislation should normally deal with issues of policy, while subsidiary legislation deals with issues to do with implementation and operationalisation. A lot of this, in my humble view, concern operationalising the Act, which makes the law unnecessarily voluminous, yet some of the issues would be dealt with well if we put them in a subsidiary legislation. Otherwise, they do not do any harm; it is only that I thought it would have been a neater way of making the law, if we approached the matter in that manner.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (hon. Kajwang’) : Thank you. Let us hear the Member for Kitui South.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support the amendment as presented by the Chair of the Departmental Committee.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 31

Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Do I hear that you want to propose an amendment to the title to Part II?

Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Please, proceed.

Part II

- THAT, the Bill be amended in the heading of Part II by deleting the words “ESTABLISHMENT, POWERS AND FUNCTIONS OF THE NATIONAL CLIMATE CHANGE COUNCIL” and substituting therefor the words “POLICY, COORDINATION AND OVERSIGHT” Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, with the amendment to Clause 3, that establishes the council, we want to amend the title of PART II to read “Policy Coordination and Oversight”, so that it is clearer because the functions and powers have already been dealt with under PART III.

(Question, that the words to be left

out be left out, put and agreed to)

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 32

- THAT, Clause 4 of the Bill be amended─

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I strongly support the amendment. Climate change issues are cross-cutting. They cannot be left to one sector or Ministry. The fact that the President will be chairing the Climate Council is very good for this country. That is the practice in many jurisdictions, where they have climate change law.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : What is your point of order, Member for Rarieda?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, with all due respect, I have no intention of taking you back but some of us had a different opinion on the amendment proposed to Clause 4 of the Bill.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Hon. Gumbo, we have passed that clause. It is now water under the bridge.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 33

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I had pressed my intervention button.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : I saw it as an intervention. I wish I saw it as a request. I thought you were rising on a point of order.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, be it as it may, I wish I could discuss it because I had started something which could help to enrich the Bill but, as you have rightly said, it is water under the bridge.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Mover, you were about to finish?

Clause 5

- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 5 and substituting therefor the following new clause─ “ (5) The Council shall provide an overarching national climate change coordination mechanism and shall─

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I rise to support the amendment because it seeks to ensure that issues of climate change are properly mainstreamed in the functions of both the national Government and the county

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 34

- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting clause 6. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, with the amendment to Clause 4 that changes the institution from a ‘board’ to a ‘council’, it means that the Council is not a body corporate. Therefore, Clause 6 is no longer necessary.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

(Hon. Kajwang’)

: Hon. Members, remember that the amendment is about a deletion.

Yes, Member for Kipipiri! Is he not here? Proceed, hon. Isaac Mwaura.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I rise to oppose the deletion of Clause 6. Even though the Council is going to be chaired by the President, with Cabinet Secretary becoming the Secretary of the Council, it does not mean that Council will not be able to function as an independent entity, even for coordinating purposes.

We have similar bodies existing within our Government structure. They also have Votes, so that they run their operations. where will such a Council be domiciled? Even if the Council is going to be under the Cabinet Office, it has to be fairly independent.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Thank you very much. Yes, Member for Rarieda.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, let me say from the outset that, like hon. Mwaura, I stand to oppose the amendment. My sense of the whole thing is that the amendment tends to make the Council rather whimsical by not giving it any functions or powers.

I would have been happier if you had indulged the Chair of the Departmental Committee to tell us the actual import of the deletion. What does it mean to the operation of the Council? It has to operate in some way. If it has to operate in some way, it has to discharge some functions. How is she going to wriggle her way around the domestication of those functions when she deletes these clear provisions?

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang) : Thank you very much. Let us have the nominated Member, hon. Amina Abdalla, Chair of the relevant Committee.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 35

Thank you, hon Temporary Deputy Chairman. To give clarification, the initial thought of the Mover was to set up a body corporate with a Chief Executive Officer (CEO) who would run the Council. We felt after long consultations with all the stakeholders that the Council needs to be a body that gives policy direction. The secretariat of that Council must be domicile in the Ministry responsible for climate change. Therefore, we are forming a secretariat with a director employed under the public service, who is going to be the person responsible for the day to day issues. That means that the Council will not be a body corporate. Because of the restructuring of the entire process there was no need for this Council to remain a body corporate. The issue was, if we made it a body corporate we would have established another parastatal, yet the Jubilee Government has been working towards reducing them by amalgamating the existing ones. To deal with that, we made it part of a secretariat of a Ministry, rather than having a new parastatal set up.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang) : Thank you. Let us have the hon. Member for Kitui South.

After the explanation given by the Chair of the relevant Committee, hon. Amina Abdalla, I feel that the best way---. I support the amendment that she has presented. We do not need to have parallel institutions drawing funds from the Exchequer. The best way is to have an institution which is under the Public Service Commission instead of having a Council parallel to the PSC.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang) : All right.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang) : Mover. This is another deletion.

Clause 7

- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 7. It follows from the deleted Clause 6 that the guiding principles of a board are no longer necessary. It is a Council. Our new Clause 3A will be providing for the principles of the Council.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

(Hon. Kajwang’)

: Let us have hon. Isaac Mwaura.

Thank you. If you look at Section 7 of the Principal Act, you will realise that these are just guiding principles. For example, it speaks about issues of public participation and also speaks to issues of promotion of sustainable development. In my

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 36

- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 8 and substituting therefor the following new clause─ 8 (1) The Council shall comprise not more than nine members who shall be appointed by the President.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 37

I have no problem but I just--- Maybe it is my little understanding of the English, but when I look at sub-clause (3) it is says that: “A person shall be appointed under subsection (2) (f) (g) and (h) , if the person has expertise and experience in matters of climate change, economy, finance, law, environment and public administration” first, I do not know what the Chair thinks, but my impression is that the Council as will be constituted will be top heavy with civil servants and bureaucracy. But that is neither here and no there. , I look at (8) (3) where you are talking of experience in matters of climate change and I wonder if it is just semantics. I thought this was something that---

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang) : The profession of climate change---

Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo: Yes. Is there a profession called climate change? I am just wondering what it means. Maybe she could guide us. She is, probably, brighter than I am.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang) : Okay. Let us have hon. Amina Abdalla.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 38

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, when you first allowed hon. (Eng.) Gumbo you said he was as old as I am in this House, but now the truth has comes out. He is serving his second term while I am serving my third term.

Having said that, the words are two; “expertise” and “experience.” Most of what is out there could be either expertise or experience. So, it is either of the two. It is not that it is confining to expertise. I do not believe there are many masters degrees in climate change. It would be the same as what President Museveni spoke about when he was talking about masters in peace building. He said that you have to wait for war for you to use your expertise.

Clause 9

- THAT, Clause 9 of the Bill be deleted.

Clause 10

- THAT, Clause 10 of the Bill be deleted.

Clause 11

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 39

- THAT, Clause 11 of the Bill be deleted.

Clause 12

- THAT, Clause 12 of the Bill be deleted.

Clause 13

- THAT, Clause 13 of the Bill be deleted.

Clause 14

- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 14 and substituting therefor the following new clause─ Climate Change Directorate. 14 (1) There is established the Climate Change Directorate, as a Directorate in the State Department for the time being responsible for Climate Change.

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 40

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 41

I rise to support this amendment. As I had said earlier, I have a feeling that some of the provisions that have been proposed in this new clause could easily have been accommodated by regulations but being as it is, it probably only makes the Bill bigger. However, I support.

Clause 15

- THAT, Clause 15 of the Bill be deleted.

Clause 16

March4, 2015 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 42

- THAT, Clause 16 of the Bill be amended by─

- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 17 by deleting the word “Board” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”. It is a consequential amendment based on deletion of Clause 8.

Clause 18

- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 18 by deleting the word “Board” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, it is a consequential amendment to replace “Board” with “Council”.

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- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 19 and substituting therefor the following new clause─

Cabinet Secretary to coordinate the preparation of climate change action plans, strategies and policies. 19. (1) The Cabinet Secretary shall, in accordance with Article 10 of the Constitution and section 3 of this Act, and through public consultation formulate a National Climate Change Action Plan.

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It is not really a problem. I support the proposed amendment. The only thing that should be running through these proposed amendments, which I think should be brought at some point later, is that climate change issues are actually global issues. So, even if you take domestic interventions without tying it to global interventions, I am hoping that as we go a long we do what we want to do here in the country. However, if we do not have linkages and global partnerships it may not count much.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Hon. Isaac Mwaura.

I support these amendments, but I just have a point of concern. With the substantive removal of a Board which is very well explained and also the creation of a Directorate and a Cabinet Council, what we find in this Clause is that some of these things would actually be good if they were left to regulations. A case in point is how a notice can be given through the Kenya Gazette on the notification and approval of an action plan and things like those. I find that it is sometimes too deep to the point that it is over-legislating. Otherwise, it is a good proposal.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I really want to follow up on this issue of over-legislation. You know that the EMCA Act requires that this House passes the state of the environment report annually. However, this has never happened. So, we were looking for mechanisms to put in place a monitoring tool. That is why we seem to be over-legislating, but we are addressing some mischiefs that already exist in the environment sector. The reason why we are talking about details of gazettement---In fact, the details are even more. For example, the National Action Plan on Climate Change starts with the counties. We are giving them years on when they can report and produce a report then it fits in the national one for purposes of feeding into the international ones that he is mentioning. We may be appearing to over-legislate, but there are mischiefs that already exist in environmental governance in this country that we are trying to address.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Member for Rarieda, are you on a point of order?

On a point of order, yes. It is just good that the Chairperson of the Committee has brought up the issue.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Member for Rarieda, make it a point of order so that any other Member who is a first timer listening will be able to learn what is a point of order and what is not.

What I find out of order is the tacit ambition that we can do without subsidiary legislation which is required to enforce---

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : So, the point is whether the Member is misleading the House or not with the facts.

To some extent, she is misleading the House because we have a Committee in this House which is supposed to track subsidiary legislation. That for me will really not be the reason for us to overload a statute. We are saying that we have not been able to bring the necessary changes. Is she really in order?

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Thank you very much. I will rule on this. I think the Member is in order to make an interpretation of the law and say that in her own estimation or opinion, this is a matter that should be taken over by

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 21 and substituting therefor the following new clause—

Climate change duties Of public sector.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support this amendment because it also clarifies the question of what can be done as far as the matter of climate change is concerned. Although I had an issue, we have already passed it. We have had strong legislations in the past like the Environmental Management and Coordination Act (EMCA) . However, they have not been effectively implemented. So, the mechanism for making this work is important.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, Clause 22 of the Bill be deleted.

Clause 23

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Mover, this is another deletion.

Thank you. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, Clause 23 of the Bill be deleted. This is a consequential amendment.

Clause 24

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 24 and substituting therefor the following new Clause 24 ─

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, while I have no problem with the proposed amendment per se, I wish the Chairperson of the Committee would gather courage and deal with the lethargy at the National Environment Management Authority (NEMA) . We are giving NEMA additional functions and yet most Kenyans, including myself, believe that the environmental mess we have in our country is because of the extreme lethargy at NEMA. Now you are giving them additional functions to monitor, investigate and report private entities. Is this a wish list or are we just making laws which we cannot implement? NEMA is a problem the way it is. It is not functioning. For all intents and purposes, it is dysfunctional and yet we are giving it additional functions. So, I would love the Chairperson of the Committee to get

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I agree with the Member for Rarieda. NEMA needs to be a body similar to what we have in the United States (US) or Canada as an environmental protection agency. It should have the teeth and necessary resources to perform its environmental functions. As a Committee, we are working so hard to ensure that NEMA is well resourced and it gets the necessary capacity that it requires. In most of the laws we are passing we are trying to do away with the ambiguities that have been there before. This Climate Change Bill will go a long way to enable NEMA to achieve some of those mandates. While I agree with him that there is a lot of laxity and weaknesses within NEMA, it is an Authority that we need. We have to work hard to ensure that it performs as expected.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Member for Gichugu.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I would like to support hon. Chachu. This law is not meant for NEMA as it is now. We anticipate a strong NEMA. What we should do as an institution is to ensure that the anomalies and weaknesses in NEMA are addressed. That is what we are doing as a Committee. I can assure this House that the Committee is looking at it.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Clause 26

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 26 and substituting therefor the following new clause─. “ (26) (1) There is hereby established the Climate Change Fund, which shall be a financing mechanism for priority climate change actions and interventions approved by the Council.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, the Bill be amended in clause 27 by deleting the words “the Board of” appearing immediately after the words “financial year”. This is a consequential amendment.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 29─

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:-

THAT, Clause 30 of the Bill be deleted. This is another consequential amendment deleting “Chief Executive Officer” of the Board.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am getting concerned about these deletions. It is not because they are not relevant, but they are very sweeping to the point that even if you were to remove the roles that had been given to a CEO or a Board, some of these provisions are very good even in the spirit of transparency and accountability. We have just passed a Fund which is supposed to be managed by a Principal Secretary (PS) without any committee. I did not see that Fund being domiciled within the Directorate of Climate Change. If you look at the provisions that we are just about to delete, yes, indeed, some of them would specifically be relevant to a statutory body. However, some of these provisions are also very good in terms of ensuring that this Council--- Despite the fact that it is having representation from the Presidency, Cabinet Secretary (CS) and civil society, it is also open to the public in terms of its operations. I fear it is a lofty body that is just up there but operating in an opaque manner and is not accessible. Some of these provisions help in terms of accessibility of information and interaction between the Council and the public.

Hon. Mwaura has raised those issues because of not having looked at the new clauses. We removed the issues pertaining to the CEOs, but issues to do with access to public information and public participation are in the New Clause 24. If he looks at the new clauses, he will see that his concerns have been addressed.

Clause 32

- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 32 by deleting the word “Board” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word “Council”. This is a consequential amendment where the word “Board” is changed to “Council”.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

(Hon. Kajwang’)

: Member for Bundalangi.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I might have missed this, but I was just wondering whether we had an explanation on record as to the change from “Board” to “Council”, just for the record.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, when I explained the hon. Member for Bundalangi was not there. Basically, there was formation of a new parastatal with a CEO and a Board. So, we have decided, in line with the need to reduce the number of public institutions, to form a Directorate of Climate Change under the Ministry of Environment, Water and Natural Resources that is going to be the Secretariat to the Council on Climate Change, that will be chaired by the President.

Question, that the word to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

Clause 33

- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 33 by deleting the word “Board” and substituting therefor the word “Council”

Clause 34

- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 34 by deleting the word “Board” wherever it appears and substituting therefor the word, “Council”.

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- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 36 by─

- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after Clause 3— Guiding principles and values.

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- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after clause 13─

Powers and duties of the Cabinet Secretary.

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- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after Clause 21—

Climate Change duties of Private Entities. No. 18 of 2013.

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- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clauses immediately after clause 24— Mainstreaming climate change actions into

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support these amendments, but I have one concern. Looking at the proposal, it is very good. Issues like disaster risk management have not been given adequate profile yet if, as a country we were to look at it from a climate change view but also generally at this high level, it would really help us to mitigate disaster.

Secondly, looking at the proposal for the assignment of county executives at the county level, the robust nature with which a lot of responsibilities and powers have been given to the Cabinet Secretary for environment may not suffice at the county level because the County Executive Committee (CEC) is supposed to be designated. Maybe the Mover would have proposed the county executive who is in charge of matters relating to environment. It would have been clearer.

Thank you.

(Question, that new clauses be read a

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- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Part immediately after Part IV—

Public Participation 25A (1) Public entities at each level of government shall, at all times when developing strategies, laws and policies relating to climate change, undertake public awareness and conduct public consultations.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. While this Clause seems to cure the concern I had before about the engagement of the Council, of course there is also the issue of limitation of such participation, especially when you provide in Sub-clause 25 (6) about if somebody requests to give information, the Council has the powers to decline such requests if that request is considered to be unreasonable. Maybe if at all somebody is requesting information, then you can give what you consider to be reasonable. In my opinion, to have such a clause may infringe on the right to information by the citizenry.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Chair of the relevant Departmental Committee, will you please look at page 18 going onwards? Go to page 18 of the Bill and flip the pages to pages 19, 20 and 21. Between that part and Part V, do I hear you making an amendment proposal consequent to the amendments you have brought?

Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I thought I had moved them together but I guess it is not allowed.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Part immediately after part IV—

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- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after clause 35:-

Transitional Provision.

35A. The members of the Council shall be appointed within three months of the coming into force of this Act. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this is a transitional provision on the appointment of the members of the Council.

Second Schedule

- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting the second schedule. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this is a consequential amendment to the amendment to clause 8.

(Question, that the words to be left

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- THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended:-

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- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting the long title and substituting therefor the following new long title:- AN ACT of Parliament to provide for a regulatory framework for enhanced response to climate change; to provide for mechanism and measures to achieve low carbon climate development, and for connected purpose. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this is intended to align the short title with the definition and goals of climate change governance and especially to be in line with the National Action Plan on Climate Change.

(Question, that the words to be left

out be left out, put and agreed to)

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : Mover of the Children (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 18 of 2014) , do I have you on intervention?

I beg to move that the Committee doth report its considerations of the Children (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 18 of 2014) and its approval thereof with amendments.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I think it is the Mover who should be reading this but I know he does not mind. Can I proceed?

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’) : As far as I am concerned, I see your intervention. Proceed.

I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Climate Change Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 1 of 2014) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Children (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 18 of 2014) and approved the same with amendments.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : The Mover of the Bill, hon. Kaluma.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report and also request hon. (Prof.) Nyikal to second the Motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of the whole House.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal, you second?

Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal seconded.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Climate Change Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 1 of 2014) , and approved the same with amendments.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : The Mover, please move agreement with the Report.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report and also request hon. (Dr.) Ottichilo to second the Motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of the whole House.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I second the Bill.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Hon. Members, we move to the Third Reading and we will start with the Children (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 18 of 2014. The Mover who is hon. Kaluma needs to move.

I beg to move that the Children (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 18 of 2014, be now read a Third Time and also request hon. (Prof.) Nyikal to second.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I second. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Hon. Members, I propose the Question for the Third Reading.

I will get recommendations from a few. Let me start with hon. Isaack Mwaura.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. This Bill is very important because it sets clear the confusion that has been there in terms of the custody of children between the mother and father. We hope that it is going to ensure that there is equal parental responsibility on both parties.

I support this Bill for the Third Reading. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : You support. Let me get an opinion from the Member for Kapenguria, hon. Samuel Moroto.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I also add my voice by congratulating the Mover of this Motion. It is going to help, especially now that there is a growing number of children on the streets because of the discouragement they get from their parents. This Bill is going to help these children to get to their future because they will be cared for unlike at the moment when there are so many other problems, especially when the population is growing. We even have children from mpango wa kando and others. I know this Bill is going to help and support the welfare of children.

Thank you, I support it. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Thank you, let us get other people. I see others also want to contribute. Hon. Member for Othaya, Mary Wambui.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to support the Bill. We know our children used to get a lot of problems in this country because whenever parents disagreed with each other, they left the children to roam.

We also have children who are born outside marriage. We need to take care of all children in this country so that they can know the Government of Kenya is taking care of them. His Excellencies Uhuru and Ruto care about the family.

Thank you very much, I support. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Let me have the Organising Secretary of Wiper Democratic Movement, the hon. Member for Kathiani. Are you around?

Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for recognising my new position. I just want to thank my colleague and friend, hon. Kaluma for this kind of Bill. This is actually why we are in this House. I just want to thank him and say that this is timely and the rest of us should emulate and come up with such Bills.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal seems to be so agitated and he wants to make a comment. I have the discretion to allow him.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I put some opinion earlier but in all, I congratulate hon. Kaluma for bringing this. Infact, this Bill which is now going to be an Act has brought clarity in terms of parental responsibility. We will not have to indulge a lot in seeking negotiations and other ways before parents, particularly men take responsibility. That is a good way. However, as I indicated earlier, there is an area that even as we are going on with this debate still seems to be grey for other people. That is the difference between custody and parental responsibility.

In my mind, the two are closely related but I was advised that custody is taken care of in a different part of the law. Even in that part, you realise that it still left the decision in the hands of the presiding officers of the court and also what I was advised involves case law. We may look at it to be more exact particularly with regard to very young children who many times will, in my view, in the first instance, require to be with

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. It is very gratifying and good to see this House engaging in our primary mandate which is legislation. It is good to see very good pieces of legislation passing through this House. This is a fantastic piece of legislation; fantastic in my mind for two reasons.

One, it is very much in line with the new constitutional spirit. Our new Constitution has now erased the social hierarchy between man and woman; between the two genders. We are saying that the social order in this country is that man and woman are equal. They have equal opportunity. They bear equal responsibility and it is good to see this kind of legislation that brings to life that reality. Therefore, I want to congratulate and commend hon. Member for Homa Bay Town, my learned friend, for bringing this Bill. It also spreads the risks in terms of parental responsibility that both mother and father will bear responsibility. Of course, we all know that it takes two to tango; you cannot tango alone and bring life into being. If it takes two to tango to create a life, it certainly should take two to tango in terms of the responsibility to raise the offspring. Therefore, I support this Bill.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Thank you, you cannot tango alone. Hon. Members, because of obvious reasons that this House is aware of, I am not in a position to put the Question. So I do order that the Question be put in the next sitting at the appropriate time. Therefore, we now move to the Climate Change Bill (National Assembly) Bill No. 1 of 2014) for the Third Reading. I call the Mover of the

Bill to move the Third Reading. THE CLIMATE CHANGE BILL

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the Climate Change Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 1 of 2014) be now read a Third Time. I request hon. Kinyua to second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Who is to second?

Hon. Kinyua.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. First, I second this Bill. I wish to congratulate the Departmental Committee of Environment and Natural Resources led by hon. (Ms.) Abdalla for the work well done. This is one of the many Bills which have been churned through this House by this Departmental Committee which has proved to be the most effective in this Eleventh Parliament.

It is worth noting just three points, that this is a very progressive Bill. One that appreciates the fact that climate change cuts across all sectors of the economy and cannot be taken in isolation. This Bill has brought all the departments and all the Ministries that are affected by the climate change and that contribute towards low carbon discharge and mitigation of its effects together.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Hon. Ganya you are next.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support the Climate Change Bill. I want to congratulate the Committee of hon. (Ms.) Abdalla for the good work that they have done considering the effects that we are all experiencing in our country and globally on the issues of climate change. It is just good that we plan ahead because it seems like times are going to be harder. Particularly right now, we are experiencing a very long drought and our people are going through hard times. For those communities that are particularly pastoralists, it is becoming very hard. So we need intervention measures from the Government and very coordinated efforts in order to help the society manage these difficult times.

I just needed to support the efforts of the Committee and seek that the Government will take this seriously because as we go towards 2022, particularly in terms of water resource management, we are told the next global wars will be fought around water resources. To avoid such wars and conflicts, we need to manage our resources well and address the effects of climate change. Among the interventions that I will be asking the Government to do is to consider cushioning the pastoral communities at such times. Right now we need interventions through the Kenya Meat Commission (KMC) for our animals to be bought otherwise it will be a loss not just to the pastoralists but to the country economically.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, our people are waiting and we are asking the relevant Ministries like the Ministry of Environment, Water and Natural Resources, to intervene because right now we are experiencing a lot of water shortage. There is also the wildlife-human conflict because of the drought. These are some of the measures we want the Government to undertake. We are happy that an agency is going to be established to address these issues. Thank you, hon.Temporary Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to commend my colleague, hon. Doctor Ottichilo for moving this Bill. This was a Private Members Bill and then it was brought to our Committee. I know it has been a long journey for him. In the Tenth Parliament this Bill was passed, but it was not assented to by the President for the reason that there was very little consultation that was done. Again, in the Eleventh Parliament, he has pushed it this far. I hope this time, given the consultations that the Committee has done, our President will assent to it.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, climate change is a major challenge of our time. Very few countries in the world have advanced climate change law. It is very controversial and very sensitive. It has a major impact on the economy of a country because it impacts on how industries operate in this country. Because of that, we have been a leader again not only in Africa, but in the world for having such a comprehensive climate change law. It will also enable this country to access climate financing. There are a lot of funds out there which now, with this law, we should be able to access and manage the crisis that we face here in Kenya.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I hope the President will assent to this so that we have a comprehensive law to deal with the climate crisis in our country.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Well spoken. Hon. Members, I would be doing a mistake not to give a chance to the Mover of the Bill, Member for Emuhaya, hon. (Dr.) Ottichilo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am a very happy person.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I support this Bill. When I was a young man, climates could be differentiated. As I speak, things have changed greatly that one cannot know which season it is. Like many of my colleagues have said, the Government has to plan for the change of climate. In future, this will affect not only one part of the country, but the entire country. In areas where there is not a lot of rain, it may be a little bit hard. Let us be conscious, as a country, to plan for this eventuality.

As I wind up my comments, I support the Bill.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I take this opportunity to thank the Committee and the Mover of this Bill. It is good to see that this is progressive. Planning ahead is a good thing for this country.

I would probably use this minute to urge this Committee and particularly the Mover of this Bill that we probably should begin to address issues of planning in cities. We are having situations where apartments are being constructed next to each other and sitting in one apartment, you are looking at the bedroom of another person in another apartment. This should also concern us. I want to thank the Chair and the Committee that they have looked at a very progressive piece of legislation. We want to support them for this.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu) : Hon. Members, I am not in a position to put the Question. We do not have the requisite numbers as per our Standing Orders. I, therefore, order that the Question for adoption and decision-making will be put in the next sitting at the most appropriate time.

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