June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Wednesday, 24th June, 2015

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table:- Report of the Retreat by the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Broadcasting and Library with the Parliamentary Broadcasting Unit held in Lake Elementaita Sentrim Lodge, Naivasha, from 8th to 10th August, 2014.

Order, Sen. Lesuuda. Was that under Papers Laid?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table:-

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES COUNTY GOVERNMENT CEILINGS ON RECURRENT EXPENDITURES FOR 2015/2016

Could we take the requests first? Yes, Sen. Mutahi Kagwe!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to request for a statement on the treatment of Kenyans applying for visas at the South African High Commission to travel to South Africa. I wish to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations on treatment of Kenyans applying for visas to South Africa at the South African High Commission and at their agency in Nairobi.

In the past year or so, Kenyans seeking to visit South Africa for different purposes have encountered difficulties at the South African High Commission in Nairobi. This is due to stringent visa conditions imposed by the High Commission. Lately, Kenyans have encountered hostility at the Commission and many of them have been unable to secure visas for personal and business missions on time.

In this Statement, the Chairperson should report on the following.

Where is the Chairperson or a Member of the Committee? This concerns the Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I undertake to inform the Chairperson. We will bring the statement in two weeks.

It is so directed.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With all due respect to the Committee – I realise that there are difficulties in these things – I think it can be done faster than that. Kenyans are suffering in that High Commission. Even today, there are

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had requested for two weeks in view of the fact that we have to refer to the line Ministry and to give a comprehensive answer including getting reports from our High Commission in South Africa. Please, bear with us and give us two weeks for a comprehensive answer.

It is so directed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No.45 (2) (b) , I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Committee on Roads and Infrastructure on the condition of Maai Mahiu – Narok Road. In the Statement, I would like to know the following:

Yes, Sen. Sijeny.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will give a report within two weeks. If I get an answer earlier than that, it will be good. However, two weeks is good.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With your permission, and since there are no statements to be responded to, I would like to raise a matter which I feel is important to this House.

Yesterday, we had a joint committee meeting of the Committee on Health and the Committee of Finance, Commerce and Budget. In that meeting, we had invited the Cabinet Secretary for Health. We specifically discussed the matter relating to the equipment that is being given to counties. My concern was the manner in which the whole issue was covered by the Press.

In the deliberations of the meeting, the HANSARD can bear us witness on this - there was a fairly balanced approach to the issue. Indeed, Senators who are here can bear witness to this. The impression given by the coverage given yesterday by most media houses especially on television was that the Senate seemed to be completely against the whole issue and that we were accusing the Cabinet Secretary of theft.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The concern by our colleague, hon. Mutahi Kagwe, the Senator for Nyeri, is valid. At one point, I remember saying that media houses must be sanctioned.

Quite a number of my colleagues said that is not the best way to go. We are not saying that they should be sanctioned but they must be guided. There are ethics and standards which they need to look at. As ably reported by my colleague, the discussions were very positive. Concerns which can be improved on by the relevant Ministry were raised and they have been given adequate time to address the concerns raised by the Senators.

It is important that we get clear direction from the Chair. We have a public relations officer for Parliament and, specifically, there are people who have been in the media houses who work on this from our side. It is imperative that we get some good directions from you with regard to the manner in which coverage is done in and outside this House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was disturbing to have the kind of reporting we received by the media on the issue of the equipment. For the first time, we had a Ministry which was responding to matters that had been passed in this House as a Motion. I remember that I raised the Motion on equipping Level 5 hospitals in the country.

The Ministry of Health took up the matter and acted. They should be praised, encouraged and be an example to other Ministries so that they pay attention to all the Motions that we pass in this House. Unfortunately, the media uses some of our weaknesses, where some of us behave in a manner that we play to the gallery, maybe the mistake is on our side. We should also guard on what we talk before the media.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank my colleague, Sen. Kagwe, for bringing this matter to the Floor of the House so that we can pay proper attention to it and look for remedies which can help. I enjoin my voice by saying that we interrogated the Cabinet Secretary and pointed out areas which need attention so that the project does not become a white elephant. Those were my words.

In English, there is something called “skepticism.” Skepticism does not mean that you are opposed but means that you want to be more enlightened. In public policy, skeptics are useful because they make you look twice in making decisions. This House will fail in its duty if it does not have skeptics. In parliamentary tradition, skepticism is extremely important in interrogating public policy.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank my colleague, Sen. Kagwe, for bringing this issue to the attention of this House. I know that having been a media practitioner, he cannot just raise that issue for the sake of it. He also understands what guides journalism, media and all the editorial policies and so on.

It is important that even if for nothing else, that this issue is brought to the attention of this House and Kenyans. As he said, this is not the first time that this has happened. In our Committee, when we went to visit some of the counties, especially the far-flung counties of our country, my Chairperson, Sen. Murkomen, said that it is important that we get specialised practitioners, medics, in our counties. We said that we would be proposing that counties be allowed to train medics, especially specialised ones so that they can work in our hospitals. We would then, probably look into this.

We did not say that it was mandatory for them to be bonded for 10 years. However, it was reported that the Senate was proposing that specialised doctors will be bonded for over 10 years in the counties and this created uproar from our doctors. This was just a matter of how it was reported. In the case of this House, our media should be a little bit responsible so that we are not always in conflict with everybody on what is reported.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I join my colleagues in making observations and contribution towards that concern from the Senator. I would like to advise members of the Fourth Estate to be responsible for any report they make in the media, be it the newspapers or electronic media. It should also be noted that since we came to Parliament, the media has done this deliberately. I understand that the media fraternity has a code of ethics which they refer to. This is the same fraternity that misreports to Kenyans that any Member of the National Assembly is a Member of Parliament (MP) while a Member of the Senate is a Senator. That makes the members of the public think that the MPs are only Members of the National Assembly. This has created confusion. It has also encouraged Members of the National Assembly to feel they are the only MPs, excluding the Senate and not considering that we are also MPs.

Therefore, I would like to caution and request members of the Fourth Estate that this country also belongs to them. After they conclude their duty at the end of the day, they should reason and feel that despite the business they are looking for, they might be misleading Kenyans. They should understand that they are also Kenyans and report to Kenyans accurate information because their reports could put this county in trouble.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

The last two interventions; we shall have Sen. Obure speak and then finally Sen. Elachi.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wanted to raise my point of order soon after Sen. Kagwe but the opportunity did not come my way.

I know that the matter raised is of a huge concern but some of us are not Members of the Joint Committee, so we did not have the opportunity to understand what was going on. I wanted to know whether Sen. Kagwe could highlight what he considers to be inadequately covered so that we are on the same plane.

That has already been passed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank Sen. Kagwe for bringing about the matter of our meeting yesterday to the Floor of this House. It was a joint meeting between the Committee on Health and the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget regarding the leasing of medical equipment. I am a Member of the Committee on Health and we have gone round three counties. We have seen how people out there appreciate those machines, particularly in Kisii. The machines are in use and people are very happy about it.

Few counties raised concerns because of lack of consultation. The media were biased in their; they have reported negatively on one side and forgotten the responses that we were given. Concerns were raised by Senators but I think the Cabinet Secretary for Health responded well to the issues.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to encourage responsible reporting. As Senators, we represent the interest of counties out there and yet the media is portraying us as those who are refusing our hospitals to be equipped. That is not right. We know that Level 5 hospitals out there need these machines so that people can access medical diagnosis which has been lacking.

Order, Senator. We are not discussing the merits or demerits of the equipment but the reporting of it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank Sen. Kagwe about yesterday’s happenings. We are supposed to be active and sober when the media is around. The Cabinet Secretary was being asked suggestive questions including the issue of Goldenberg and so on. The media will always report negative things. When you talk about Goldenberg, the media might think that the Cabinet Secretary was involved.

When we call the media, we should know that those are outsiders and they like reporting negative things. Therefore, we have to be careful and accountable for what we say.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the concerns about the media, I think the way we are going is like making a report and yet this House is waiting for the same. Other than raising concerns in the media, the merits and demerits should be given to us formerly in a report.

I cannot agree more. That concludes it. I just want to mention that the media is under obligation to report fairly and report all shades of opinion expressed. Reporting only a particular section can only mean bias.

Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o has put a proposal about certification on parliamentary reporting. As a Parliament, we have tried to train and sensitize the

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Statement (f) is in regard to my Committee. I have the Statement ready but I do not see Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. who sought it. With your guidance, I could either read the Statement or wait for him.

Let us defer it until when he is available. That would be good notice to him.

Let us go to (g) , still Sen. Khaniri.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a Statement that I sought. Just as much as I am dedicated to come here and give Statements that are sought from my Committee, I expect the same from my colleagues.

This Statement has been on the Floor of this House for the last two-and-a-half months. It has to do with security. I have never seen an insensitive Government like this one. I know the Chairman keeps on telling us that he has not received the Statement from the Cabinet Secretary and this is a matter concerning security of my people.

The issue of Kisumu-Vihiga border is sensitive. When I requested the Statement, I expected an answer in a week. What kind of Government is this we are dealing with? The first and foremost responsibility of any Government is to guarantee people their security. In this case, security is threatened and what has the Chairman got to say in this case?

Order, Sen. Khaniri. I thought that is where you should have begun. I was looking at the Chairman making some movement and I thought he was coming to respond.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thought the hon. Senator for Vihiga is supposed to be in the Government. His party, UDF, signed a pact with the Government to work with Jubilee. Could he tell us where he belongs?

I am so disturbed that Members from the other side are trivializing what I consider to be an extremely grave matter. Whether I belong to the Government or not is neither here nor there; but to set the record straight, I do not belong to this Government. I have nothing to do with it and the only thing I need from it are answers and guarantee of security to my people because we pay taxes to the Government to do that.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Order, Members. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, even if a Member belongs to the Government and you in particular know it more than anybody else, you still want responses on insecurity.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the frustrations that we go through when we ask for Statements. Sen. Khaniri is one of the Chairs of the various Committees. I have raised before that we do the best we can to seek these Statements from the various Ministries, in this case, the Attorney-General’s office. When the matter went to the Attorney-General’s office, he indicated that based on his assessment, the issue that was sought related more with the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government and that he forwarded the matter to the Ministry.

So far, as a Committee, we have tried to obtain a response but the Attorney- General says that he has not received a response from the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government. We have agreed as a Committee to seek for the Statement directly from the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government, so that we can avoid the Attorney-General in the middle and expedite the process.

I want to register that we have had challenges especially with that particular office. We have shared those frustrations in this House. Now that we have the Senate Deputy Majority Leader, Sen. Keter, the Senator for Kericho County, who has worked in this Government, he should give an undertaking to help us get these Statements within the shortest time possible. I would urge the leadership of this House to help us in handling some of these challenges that we face with the various executive offices.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, looking at the list of Statements, those of us who were here yesterday can see that these are not new Statements. They would have been dealt with yesterday or much earlier. This is an indication that the various line Ministries are not performing, we must accept it. I do not think it is right for some of us to defend the Government. I want to agree with Sen. Sang that from the beginning, the question was not directed to the right Ministry. As we speak, there are two or three questions that relate to boundaries.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are faced with problems of constituencies and administrative boundaries in the whole country, including the county that I come from. Under your guidance, I would suggest that Committee Chairs take less than two weeks to respond to Statements because two weeks is extraordinarily long. This is why a number of them look relaxed.

Finally, I want to plead with you to demand that the respective Committees, especially the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations, summon the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government and his Principal Secretary to answer some of these questions face to face. Otherwise, we will not be making headway. I remember many of these Statements appeared yesterday.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Order, I heard you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know why my good friend, Sen. Sang, is sounding so desperate in getting answers from the relevant Government Cabinet Secretaries and Ministries. I remember one time, this issue came up and we reminded him that Article 125 of the Constitution on powers to call for evidence is very explicit. I do not think Sen. Sang and his Committee have made use of Article 125 of the Constitution because it gives them power to summon people to give evidence or produce documents.

He should come out very clear because the last time it came up, the Deputy Speaker was in the Chair. We advised him to make use of Article 125 and compel the relevant Cabinet Secretaries to bring answers. Did he do that? Why are we sounding desperate yet the Constitution gives us powers to summon these people and get the answers that we want from them?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will respond to Sen. Abdirahman in terms of the concerns that he raised on the Cabinet Secretary for the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government to appear before the Senate. Before we went on recess, we summoned the Cabinet Secretary plus the whole of the security department. Unfortunately, only five Senators attended the sitting. It is really important that as a House, we attend the sittings when we summon the Cabinet Secretaries so that we can ask questions.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my sister, Sen. Adan, did not get the gist of what I was trying to put across. I was saying that quite a number of issues that have been raised relate to this Ministry and, specifically, boundaries. If they are not able to get the responses sought for by the Members, probably, one of the appropriate approaches would have been to call the Cabinet Secretary and ensure that these things are done. I was not saying that other Members should attend.

I do not see any contradiction, Sen. Abdirahman.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the contradiction is---

Order Members! All she is saying is that when they go the extra mile, there is a poor show up when all Members have been invited. I think that is a valid concern. It should not be challenged, it is a reality and we need to work on it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, whereas we note the concern of the Chair, taking congisance of that, has she forgotten the size of quorum for Committee meetings? Is she in order to refuse to answer or give a Statement on Sen. Khaniri’s request because she is reacting to the low quorum in the last meeting with the Cabinet Secretary?

Order, Sen. Adan. You have diverted us from our path. You are completely under no obligation to respond. The matters were not addressed to you. They were addressed to the Chair of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Khaniri, the Senator for Vihiga County, is my neighbour. Kisumu and Vihiga counties are good neighbours. This issue of the boundary is extremely urgent. We must realize that it is not just Vihiga and Kisumu counties which are faced with this malady; it is all over the Republic.

I would like to caution this House that ever since Independence, boundary matters have been very explosive. However, if we manage them well, as we have to, they do not have to be. I would like to plead with the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government to act on this issue expeditiously, to prevent us from plunging into a crisis that we do not need between Vihiga and Kisumu counties.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the predicament that we are in; that we do not have Cabinet Secretaries in Parliament, can be solved if we adopt something that we inherited from the colonial Government which was then called parliamentary secretaries, who were assistant ministers and attended parliamentary sittings. At this point in time, they do not have to attend parliamentary sittings, but they can be in the galleries holding brief for their various Ministries. Since we have only about 20 Ministries, this is not too much of a cost to the Government to have parliamentary secretaries come here on a daily basis and keep track of what is going on in Parliament and report to the various Cabinet Secretaries.

Otherwise, what we are trying to do; expecting the Chairpersons of Committees who are not in Government to compel Cabinet Secretaries who are earning salaries, driving big cars and sit in big offices to listen to them, in my view, this is not going to work. I think that we better make a complete proposal to have parliamentary secretaries to bear the responsibility of liaising between Parliament and Government, then we shall succeed.

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang'- Nyong'o. What do you make of the HANSARD? I do not think that we need people to come here and just sit to listen.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the reality is that very few people in Government read the HANSARD. If they read it, it is a historical document. They do not read it on a day to day basis. I was a Minister in the Government and I do not think that I ever read the HANSARD on a day to day basis.

Do you assume that was a full representative sample?

Please, proceed, Sen. Sang.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We, as a Committee, used Article 125 on several occasions. However, the predicament that we were in with regard to this Statement is that it was directed to our Committee, but if you look at its content, the only aspect that would relate to our Committee was on the boundary. However, every other aspect of the Statement relates to the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government and the Standing Orders; the Attorney General forwarded the Statement to them.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Before the Senate Deputy Majority Leader speaks, please, proceed, Sen. Kagwe.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sympathize with Sen. Khaniri, but I think that this matter of Statements is bigger than this particular question. If there is a problem with the Senate and if a Senator is not acting in a manner that is conducive and in keeping with the dignity of this House, it is you that we would raise the question with.

Consequently, would I be in order to propose that you write a letter to the Executive, specifically to the President of the Republic of Kenya, asking that matters of the Senate be taken seriously by his Cabinet Secretaries within the Executive and to respond to those issues as swiftly as possible? This is because; it is not just that one question. There are a lot of questions. The pain is enhanced by the fact that we speak when we answer those questions on behalf of the Government. Therefore, my view would be that it is right up to your office to communicate with the other office, considering the equivalency of the Executive and the Legislature, so that the Executive can take matters Legislature as seriously as we take theirs.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While appreciating the fact that the issues of boundaries are very important, I wish to clarify to my brother, the Senator for Nandi County and my neighbour that when my boss, the Senate Majority Leader is here, he should direct those issues to him. This is because I cannot at any one point try to assume that position, when he is around here. I just want to correct that impression because I do not want to be sacked by my boss.

Order, Members! Let me start by disposing of the intervention by Sen. Kagwe. From where I sit, I am satisfied so far that we have been getting responses from the line Ministries. Sen. Khaniri is actually here with a response; it is only that the Member who sought the statement is not present. If I remember the words of Sen. Khaniri, he was very clear when he said that some Chairpersons do not seem to act as keenly as he does.

For now, I am satisfied that the response is there. I think that the problem is what Sen. Sang raised; that there are issues involving various Ministries and so, coordination within the Government is a challenge in terms of getting responses.

My directive to Sen. Sang is that; one, when you find a Statement with multiple issues, it is always good to raise it with the Clerk’s Office, so that the one with the bulk

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am happy to see the debate on Statements because I see that my friend, Sen. Khaniri, is here. More than two months ago, you ordered that we get a further Statement on the construction that is going on in Loresho but we still have not got it. The matter is getting out of hand because construction work is still going on. This Committee is chaired by Sen. Kivuti and the Vice Chairperson is my friend, Sen. Khaniri.

I will do so, Senator, if you just allow us to follow the trend that we had started. I appreciate that you just stepped in. I am sure it is not in your interest for me to give the sequence of your movement.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES CONTINUED CLOSURE OF GARISSA TTC

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have just received the Statement from the relevant Ministry, and so I never had the chance to give a copy to Sen. Obure. I stand guided whether to issue it right now or we defer it to tomorrow.

Order, Senator! May be even you yourself do not understand the Statement. Make a copy and give it to the Member. I will allow you a few minutes to consult as we deal with the matters raised by Sen. Kembi-Gitura.

Next Statement!

Yesterday we directed the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget to deal with the two Statements. They were due yesterday but we asked them to respond today. The Chairperson was not present. In fact, Sen. Kagwe gave apologies for the Chairperson yesterday and promised that it would be responded to today.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my understanding is that the Chairperson is unwell and that is why he is not in today.

That is beside the point. That particular Committee has the highest number of Members you can ever get apart from the joint committees. Sen. Kagwe himself is a Member but, of course, since he is the one who sought the Statement, he cannot respond to it. Sen. Elachi, Sen. (Dr.) Machage, Sen. (Dr.) Zani and Sen. Nabwala are all Members. That is a Committee that is definitely not lacking in talent and visibility. We were here yesterday and whatever the case, you made a promise to the House. You should have delivered the message.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I, communicated with the Chairperson as soon as he got into the House. I know that he was chairing a Committee meeting this morning. My understanding, in fact, communicated to me by Sen. Elachi is that he is not feeling well. The only thing that did not happen is that the Chairperson did not direct another Member of the Committee to respond to those Statements.

Order, Members! These Statements will be issued tomorrow afternoon and I direct that Sen. Elachi, being a Member of that Committee, the Rules and Business Committee and the Chief Whip, has a responsibility to this House in more ways than one. You must discharge those responsibilities in one respect tomorrow.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES ONGOING PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT AT THE JUNCTION OF LORESHO RIDGE ROAD AND KAPTAGAT ROAD

Sen. Khaniri, what do you have on the developments on the Loresho land?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Chairman, Sen. Kivuti, was handling this matter and to the best of my knowledge, we made a report which I want to believe was tabled. If not, we could table the additional information that the Senate wanted next week. The Statement was read, interrogated, there were so many questions and there was further information that Sen. Kembi-Gitura requested for. We have that information now. It is just a matter of tabling but the Chairperson is out of town today and tomorrow.

Let us have it on Tuesday next week.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have just received the answer for the first Statement that was sought by Sen. Munyes but he is not in the House. With your indulgence, if I could issue it tomorrow when he is in the House.

You may do so on Tuesday as I am aware that he is away.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the issue of Sen. Elachi, I would request on behalf of Sen. Murungi that Statement No. (e) be responded to as well by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget.

It is so ordered. Order, Senators! I will ask the indulgence of the Vice Chair of the Committee on Education and the good Senator from Kisii County to indulge the House so that we postpone that Statement to tomorrow. After that, we can get to the other business of the Divisions.

Order, Members! We have Orders No. 8 and 9 on which we would like to take a vote.

Next Order!

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Members, we are going to Division and I order that the Division Bell be rung for one minute.

Hon. Members, we are going to take a vote on two orders; Orders No.8 and 9 as per the Order Paper. This is a matter affecting counties and, therefore, we shall go to electronic voting by delegations. Assisted voters, you may approach the Table.

Are we ready for the second vote? It is gross misconduct to be present and fail to vote.

consulted with the Clerks-at-the-Table) Order Members, get ready for the next vote. I hope the technical people are ready. Order Members, I therefore wish to put the question.

You have 60 minutes to vote electronically. An hon. Senators: It should be seconds instead of minutes.

It is supposed to be 60 seconds. Did I say minutes?

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Senators, I wish to announce the results of the Division as follows:-

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:-

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Order, Senators. I want to plead with you to remain in the Chamber.

We will now move to the Committee of the Whole to consider the County Allocation of Revenue Bill and the Natural Resources (Benefit Sharing) Bill. We can finish the County Allocation of Revenue Bill in no time.

Next Order!

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

- THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be amended-

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I have not finished with Clause 5. Further, by deleting the sub Clause 5 appearing after sub Clause 4. The import of that deletion is exactly the same as the first one. Further, that a new Clause 5A be inserted so that the Bill be amended---

The Temporary Chairperson

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage)

: Order. Can you stop at Clause 5?

The question will be put at the end.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir. There is a new Clause 5 (a) .

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : I will direct you on when to do it, just relax. Clauses 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : The clauses that have just been read have no amendments.

I will put the question later.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, a further amendment is proposed that the Bill be amended by inserting a new Clause known as Clause 5A immediately after Clause 5. Clause 5A is related to the Schedule. In other words, the budget ceiling for recurrent expenditure for county governments for Financial Year 2015---

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Order. You should move that the New Clause 5A be now read a second time before you explain. So, start again.

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move that the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after clause 5.

Budget ceilings for recurrent expenditure

5A. The budget ceilings for the recurrent expenditure for each county government for the financial year 2015/16 shall be as set out in the Fourth Schedule. The import of that is to set the budget ceilings in the Recurrent Expenditure. The budget ceilings for Recurrent Expenditure for county governments for the Financial Year 2015/2016 shall be set out in the Fourth Schedule. The Fourth Schedule is attached.

The Temporary Chairperson

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage)

: Very well. I have to dispose of this, so that we go for the Division

What is it, Sen. Murkomen?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir. Before you we go for the Division on that, I do not know if that is the right procedure. I was looking at the disparity between what is allocated to certain county assemblies vis-a-vis the county executive and I hope that public consultation was done because the gap is too huge. Some county assemblies, for instance, Kilifi, has Kshs630 million while their

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

It is okay. The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : So, please, relax. Let the Division Bell be rung for 30 seconds.

Sen. Kagwe, if you may listen to me, I have also noticed that there is a new Fourth Schedule which is supposed to be part of the Bill and it was to also be read a Second time. I want you to go through that so that we vote for them together without having to ring the Division Bell again.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, I notice that the second schedule is also proposed for amendment; that the Bill be amended by deleting the Second Schedule and substituting therefor the following new Schedule. I thought that should also be read a Second Time.

The Temporary Chairman (Sen. (Dr.) Machage: We have to dispose of the first before you make an amendment, if that will arise. New Schedule

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Bill be amended by inserting the following New Schedule immediately after the Third Schedule:-

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES NEW SCHEDULE

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move that the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after clause 5. Budget ceilings for recurrent expenditure 5A. The budget ceilings for the recurrent expenditure for each county government for the financial year 2015/16 shall be as set out in the Fourth Schedule. The import of that is to set the budget ceilings in the Recurrent Expenditure. The budget ceilings for Recurrent Expenditure for county governments for the Financial Year 2015/2016 shall be set out in the Fourth Schedule. The Fourth Schedule is attached. (Question of the New Clause 5A proposed) (New Clause 5A read the First Time) (Question, that the New Clause 5A be read a Second Time proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Total 27,493,395,927 20,633,181,151 48,126,577,078

When we go to vote, we will vote for two things; the schedule and the amendment. I was proposing that we should have one voting. So, would it be possible then for us also to vote. I move that the Second Schedule be read a second time so that we can vote for the three of them simultaneously.

The Temporary Chairman (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : The Second Schedule is an amendment and it does not need to be read a second time. So, just stay put because I am putting the first Question.

Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am concerned about the issue of leasing of medical equipment. Parliament does not approve any method of procurement. I was thinking we should just call it “medical equipment” instead of approving any method of procurement.

The Temporary Chairman (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Order! Do not move using some backdoor. I draw your attention to Standing Order No.138 on Committee of the Whole. The only Member who can move an amendment on the Floor is the Chair of the Committee. Everybody else must give notice to this Chair at least two hours before. You are time barred, that is what I am trying to tell you.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. The point that is being brought by Sen. Ndiema is valid because this leasing of medical equipment has had some debate. Unless some explanation is made adequately, it would mean that we are forcing counties to lease the equipment. This is not an allocation. They have to pay. If it was an allocation which is a grant without the word “leasing”, it would be understandable. Being representative of county governments, I think it would be wrong for us to vote for this without proper explanation, otherwise, we will vote against this particular item.

The Temporary Chairman (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Very well, I have understood you clearly.

Chairman, can you explain?

My understanding of this particular clause is that yesterday the explanation that was given is that this is actually a Schedule from Treasury. The explanation is that in the understanding of the national Treasury, it is correct and it is leasing. When Treasury was asked to clear the air, that is exactly what they said.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I think Sen. Ndiema and Sen. Orengo are right but could I explain further to what the Chairman has said? This is leasing of services. In other words, the equipment is given to the counties, not for them to own but to get the services of the equipment under lease. They do not pay for the services from the county funds. It is given as a conditional grant. It is a conditional grant, in terms of accounting, the counties must show that they used these services and it was worth so much but it was paid by the Government as a conditional grant.

That is the correct explanation. When you talk about leasing, you pay for it over a period of time, but on the other hand, if the equipment is there but the services are paid for by the Government, the equipment will belong to the leases until such time that the contract of using the services is over, which is estimated to be seven years.

The Temporary Chairman (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : I have gone against the Standing Orders. Once the Bars are drawn, no points of orders are entertained but because of the seriousness of this matter, I allowed for an explanation to Sen. Orengo’s and Sen. Ndiema’s questions. I did not intend to open an avalanche of points of orders. I think the explanation is enough. The county governments will not be made to incur any cost. They have been given a service of equipment that is leased by the national Government. It is the national Government that is paying for that cost. I think it is clear.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : What is it Sen. Orengo?

I just heard the Chair demanding of us to “piga makofi”. Is the Chair in order to demand that we “piga makofi” as if we are in a political rally?

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Order, Sen. Orengo. I did not hear that. So you are out of order.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, since this matter is on record, can we check on the HANSARD tomorrow? This is because you said that I am out of order.

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Order Sen. Orengo. Please resume your seat so I explain it to you. One, you will have to bring a voice specialist to

We have to dispose of the first before you make an amendment, if that will arise. New Schedule

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES NEW SCHEDULE

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Total 27,493,395,927 20,633,181,151 48,126,577,078

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

The Bars are drawn. The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Very well. Do not ring the Division Bell because the Bars are drawn. I will put in all the questions and give you the results later. Please log in and vote.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am concerned about the issue of leasing of medical equipment. Parliament does not approve any method of procurement. I was thinking we should just call it “medical equipment” instead of approving any method of procurement. The Temporary Chairman (

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Order! Do not move using some backdoor. I draw your attention to Standing Order No.138 on Committee of the Whole. The only Member who can move an amendment on the Floor is the Chair of the Committee. Everybody else must give notice to this Chair at least two hours before. You are time barred, that is what I am trying to tell you.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. The point that is being brought by Sen. Ndiema is valid because this leasing of medical equipment has had some debate. Unless some explanation is made adequately, it would mean that we are forcing counties to lease the equipment. This is not an allocation. They have to pay. If it was an allocation which is a grant without the word “leasing”, it would be understandable. Being representative of county governments, I think it would be wrong for us to vote for this without proper explanation, otherwise, we will vote against this particular item. The Temporary Chairman (

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES AYES: 29 NOES: Nil ABSTENTIONS: Nil

Mr. Temporary Chairman Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Bill No.5 of 2015) and its approval thereof with amendments.

My understanding of this particular clause is that yesterday the explanation that was given is that this is actually a Schedule from Treasury. The explanation is that in the understanding of the national Treasury, it is correct and it is leasing. When Treasury was asked to clear the air, that is exactly what they said.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the Whole has considered The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bill No.5 of 2015) and approved the same with amendments.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said Report.

Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o seconded.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the County Allocation of Revenue Bill be now read a Third Time.

Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o seconded.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

The Mover, you have a right to reply if you want to since Sen. Orengo has debated on that and there is nobody else interested.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, the proposal is valid. We will come with the explanations as requested by Sen. Orengo. The Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget is alive to possibilities of people who might try to misuse this House for that purpose. However, it was explained very clearly. We are quite satisfied with the explanation that was given. Therefore, we hope and trust that not only will the money be used properly, but also the service equipment that has been hired will help Kenyans greatly.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, hon. Senators. I will now put the question.

Could the Division Bell be rung for one minute?

Order, Sen. Murungi.

Order, Sen. Orengo. I did not hear that. So you are out of order.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, since this matter is on record, can we check on the HANSARD tomorrow? This is because you said that I am out of order. The Temporary Chairperson (

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows.

Order Sen. Orengo. Please resume your seat so I explain it to you. One, you will have to bring a voice specialist to

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

- THAT the Bill be amended by deleting the Second Schedule and substituting therefor the following new Schedule;

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The Bars are drawn. The Temporary Chairperson (

Very well. Do not ring the Division Bell because the Bars are drawn. I will put in all the questions and give you the results later. Please log in and vote. (Voting in progress)

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES AYES: 29 NOES: Nil ABSTENTIONS: Nil

Mr. Temporary Chairman Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Bill No.5 of 2015) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the Whole has considered The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bill No.5 of 2015) and approved the same with amendments.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said Report.

Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o seconded.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the County Allocation of Revenue Bill be now read a Third Time.

Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o seconded.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Chairman of the Committee or his representative for piloting this Bill through the House. However, I hope that assurances that were given to the House by Sen. (Prof.) Anyang'-Nyong'o---. He has explained this to me that on the Second Schedule dealing with conditional grants on the matter of leasing of medical equipment, that at an appropriate time, the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget should come back to us and give an explanation to the satisfaction of the Senate that these funds and the process of procuring the equipment are clean. Accountability measures should be put in place so that the Senate is not seen to be sanitising a process which may turn out to be questionable. Otherwise, I beg to support.

The Mover, you have a right to reply if you want to since Sen. Orengo has debated on that and there is nobody else interested.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, the proposal is valid. We will come with the explanations as requested by Sen. Orengo. The Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget is alive to possibilities of people who might try to misuse this House for that purpose. However, it was explained very clearly. We are quite satisfied with the explanation that was given. Therefore, we hope and trust that not only will the money be used properly, but also the service equipment that has been hired will help Kenyans greatly.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, hon. Senators. I will now put the question.

Could the Division Bell be rung for one minute?

Order, Sen. Murungi.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Senators, if you must withdraw from the Chamber, please, do so quietly because the House is still in business.

consulted with the Clerks-at-the-Table)

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

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June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES NOES: Nil ABSTENTIONS: Nil

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the Senate its consideration of the Natural Resources (Benefit Sharing) Bill, Senate Bill No.34 of 2014 and its approval thereof with amendments.

Hon. Senators, it is now time to interrupt the business of the Senate. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday 25th June, 2015, at 2.30 p.m.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said Report and I request Sen. Wamatangi to second.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I second the Natural Resources

(Senate Bill No. 34 of 2014)

I was the Vice Chairman of this Committee. This is a Bill that is crucially important for sharing benefits and ensuring that local communities benefit from the resources in their counties.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Natural Resources Benefit Sharing Bill (Senate Bill No. 34 of 2014) be now read a Third Time.

I will request the Vice Chair of this Committee, Sen. Wamatangi to second.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I second.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to congratulate ourselves and particularly the Mover for being consistent in promoting devolution from all directions and aspects by ensuring that resources are properly shared. This, together with the Bill on revenue sharing, puts the stamp on legitimacy that this Senate is committed to devolution.

Sen. (Dr.) Zani, you have the right of reply.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Senators and the Committee who, throughout this process, worked so hard to ensure that this Bill becomes a reality. This Bill is for the communities out there. We hope that the natural resources will be shared; will trickle down and be used for social and economic development.

I beg to move.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Omondi, are you on a point of order?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had requested to contribute to the Bill.

Unfortunately, you did it after the Mover had replied. You will agree with me that it is too late.

Hon senators, I will put the question---

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES DIVISION ELECTRONIC VOTING

Draw the Bars. Next order!

Hon. Senators, if you must withdraw from the Chamber, please, do so quietly because the House is still in business.

consulted with the Clerks-at-the-Table)

Hon. Senators, we have to readjust the Order Paper. I am stepping down Order No. 12 at the request of the sponsor of the

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

We have to adjust the Order Paper a little further. I am dropping Orders No. 12, 13, 14 and 15. The reason for dropping Orders No. 13, 14 and 15 is basically because we do not have the number to go to the Committee of the Whole to vote on any of the Divisions. It will be an act in futility. We will proceed to Order No.16. Please, call the next Order.

Second Reading

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I beg to move that the County Early Childhood Education Bill (Senate Bill No.32 of 2014) be read a Second Time.

With the onset of devolution, various services have now been pushed down to the county level and the Fourth Schedule of the Constitution clearly puts the realm of pre- primary education into the counties. There are various terminologies that people use but most of the time when people refer to pre-primary education, they are talking about an education for a child who is about three to six years old. Sometimes this is the same concept that is also referred to as Early Childhood Development Education (ECDE) . Village polytechnics, home crafts centres and also child care facilities have also been devolved and are a responsibility of county governments.

The interesting thing is that as a result of this and especially for us in the Committee on Education, it became necessary to delve into matters education, especially at the level of three to six years. A lot of work has gone into this Bill in terms of conceptualizing it altogether. Let me summarise the thoughts of the Committee as they thought about the process that will put into place structures for a three to six year old child.

First, in most areas in education matters, many people tend to stress on university and secondary education. However, the foundation of a child is actually at early childhood education so that this child is exposed to an education that is friendly, motivating and encouraging. In the long run, the child can pick up and begin to enjoy their educational experience. That has not been the case in many areas and you find children loathing education. Some educational centres start by giving children such hardcore material even as they begin. You will find the children crying because they have to go to school.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the notion of the ECDE level is a notion of an education that should be enjoyable so that this child can go to school and enjoy the experience. We are talking about the best model classroom that will be created so that the child can go into it and enjoy themselves. They will have stools that are at their level, a secure environment that they can enjoy, management that understands them and material that has been put in such a way that they can enjoy their educational experience. In many cases, especially in the realm where there has not been control in terms of early childhood education, we find people even starting schools in a house. This is done without some sort of structure, coordination, management or even a standard about what really constitutes an educational centre.

This Bill generally starts by setting out specific objectives. The overview is to ensure that this level of education is well managed. The understanding is that if it is not well managed at this particular point, then we are creating a situation for a child who will not do their best. Indeed, in many developed countries, they have reached a point where the focus now is not on university education any more, but on ECDE because this is the critical point.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Bill provides a framework for the establishment of a comprehensive ECDE, putting into place all the critical issues to ensure that this level of education is well managed. It also seeks to provide and establish infrastructure necessary

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

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June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Order! Sen. (Dr.) Zani, you will have 35 minutes to move the Bill, when it is prioritized again for resumption of debate.

June 24th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Senators, it is now time to interrupt the business of the Senate. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday 25th June, 2015, at 2.30 p.m.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.