Clerk, please confirm whether we have quorum. (The Clerk-at-the-Table consulted with the Deputy Speaker) Serjeant-at-Arms, kindly ring the Quorum Bell for 10 minutes. (The Quorum Bell was rung)

Clerk, I hope we now have quorum. Proceed and call out the First Order.

The Senate Majority Leader or his representative has several Papers to lay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the Senate-

Next Order.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53(1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources on a matter of county-wide concern regarding the subdivision and conversion of agricultural land to non-agricultural uses across Kisumu County.

In recent years, productive farmland in the semi-urban areas surrounding Kisumu City and along major transport corridors across Kisumu County has increasingly been subdivided and converted to residential, commercial and other non-agricultural uses. This has grossly reduced agricultural productivity in the county and threatens the county's economy, which is significantly dependent on agriculture.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Next is Sen. Enock Wambua.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53(1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources on a matter of countywide concern regarding the increasing pollution and contamination of rivers flowing into and through Kitui County, particularly the Athi and Tana rivers.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, these rivers – the Athi River and the Tana River – are lifelines for irrigation, livestock and domestic water use, yet upstream industrial, municipal and mining activities have degraded water quality, threatening food security, public health and community livelihoods.

The contamination of these rivers has become a pressing environmental and socio-economic crisis. Communities depending on them face declining agricultural productivity, risks to livestock and exposure to waterborne diseases. Urgent interventions are needed to safeguard both the environment and the people of Kitui County.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. Joe Nyutu.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Orders No.53(1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources on a matter of county-wide concern regarding the operationalisation of the Gikono landfill in Muranga County.

While the commissioning of the facility by the County Government of Murang’a marks a significant milestone in improving solid waste management, concerns remain about the implementation of key environmental safeguards, security measures and community relations that are integral to the project's design.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

I will allow comments for at least 20 minutes or so. I start with Sen. Muthama.

Sen. Onyonka, are you ready for comments or are you queuing for some other business?

I am ready for comments.

Just under two minutes, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I will comment on the statement by Sen. Wambua from Kitui about the pollution of the rivers. This is a country-wide issue. Most of the rivers are polluted and I do not know what the

Sen. Boni Khalwale.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The issue raised by Professor about land use begs for a wider and a more generalised answer. We do not know at what stage the National Land Commission (NLC) is involved. The country will remember when the Government came up with the so-called Affordable Housing Programme. They just attacked property in towns. For example, if you go to Kakamega, one of the most affluent parts of the Town is Milimani. It was attacked and houses were razed down. We supported because we thought the Government knew what it was doing, only for it to end up using half an acre of over 20 acres that were pulled down. Our town now looks like a city which had been at war because buildings have been destroyed. The so-called affordable houses have not been put up. This should not be allowed. They should be consulted on such important issues.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue raised by Sen. Wambua, the Senator for Kitui, is very important. I do not know the role played by the Ministry of Environment, Climate Change and Forestry. Three weeks ago, I had an opportunity to visit Ahero Town to specifically inspect a Financing Locally-Led Climate Action (FLLoCA) programme. I found the County Government of Kisumu using FLLoCa funds---

Sen. Boni Khalwale, you know we agreed on two minutes, but I will add you 30 seconds, so that you conclude what you were saying. You know comments are just comments, not a debate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for your magnanimity. The same thing applies to Kakamega. We have a dam at Bukhulunya Village in Kakamega Town that is supposed to handle sewage. However, it collapsed years ago. It has become a grazing ground for goats and pigs. Raw sewer is just rotating in Kakamega Town. Where is the Government at the national level? Since the County Government of Kakamega has collapsed anyway, the national Government should come in and save us.

Sen. Beatrice Ogola.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to give a comment on the Statement by the Senator for Kitui, Sen. Enoch Wambua. The issue of pollution must concern us as a country. Due to lack of water, most people along rivers use the water directly without treatment. They use it for domestic use, and this is why there are many emerging diseases related to sanitation. The issue of pollution must not only be addressed by NEMA, but even as a country. We must enhance public education to our people to know that polluting rivers is actually endangering their lives.

I was a County Executive Committee Member (CECM) for Environment in Homa Bay County. There were people who would throw garbage in rivers. Members of the public would call me to tell me that we should go to collect that baggage. Our people

Sen. Joe Nyutu.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the Statement by the Senator for Kitui, Sen. Wambua, on pollution and the contamination of rivers. This is something that cuts across the whole country. It may not be specific to Kitui County because rivers flow through several counties. The major missing link has been NEMA.

I am privileged to sit in the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources and we have been to places. We visited Sukari Industries Limited somewhere in Ndhiwa and found that NEMA had not done what they were supposed to do. This is a matter of great concern because rivers that flow ultimately to the Indian Ocean can be polluted and contaminated while NEMA does nothing. This will cause a problem not only to the users of the water from the rivers, but also to marine life because at the end of the day, every other river in this country flows into the Indian Ocean.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support that the Committee should prioritise this matter and see to it that we protect rivers against further pollution because we are risking the lives of our people. Other than waterborne diseases that may come from the pollution and contamination, we could suffer other illnesses because some of the contamination comes from industrial waste. Could this be the reason that we have had a rise in cases of cancer?

I, therefore, urge my Chairperson, Sen. Faki, to give priority to this Statement, so that we protect our lives, the marine life and our health.

Sen. Onyonka.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have been thinking about what Sen. Wambua has talked about. I have an idea which might help us because we have been discussing this issue of NEMA for the past three weeks. Why not have the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources of this House go out there and just visit the country?

In Kisii, we only have one NEMA officer who is supposed to go through all the sewer and water systems in Kisii. He should make sure that he inspects the trees which are being cut and all these things we are talking about. My honest feeling, like we have said before, the way we have the Senate going to mashinani, some of our committees should not be in this House. Could we go around our country and look at the mess we have created, so that we come up with solutions which are practical? When we are discussing and looking at what needs to be done, the Committee should be making recommendations as to what we need to do.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have been debating in this House, not only about our environmental matters, but also about water. I could name 20 things which are not going

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Cherarkey? Use your time wisely. You have just two minutes.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I just want to call my brother, Sen. Onyonka, to order. The reason we sit here is because we have a constitutional obligation under Article 96 and one of our roles is to do legislation. I, therefore, appeal to him because he is one of the seasoned legislators. He should be well- versed with what we do. He needs to capture that. I know he was with Dr. Matiang’i in the morning.

Secondly, I agree with Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda on the issue of conversion of agricultural land into commercial use. Where I come from, we should push for what we call the Land Consolidation Policy. I am saying this knowing that Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda is a Land Law lecturer, who has written extensively on the principles of conveyancing in his book called Land Law and Conveyancing in Kenya, I believe the Second Edition.

In a country, the land does not expand. The limit and the growth we have in Kenya of 55 million Kenyans will continue. That is why there is wisdom by Dr. William Samoei Kipchirchir arap Ruto for coming up with the affordable housing programme. The people who want to scrap affordable housing should listen to this. Even in Kisii, where you come from, and in Nyamira, there are so many people there that there is no land to expand to.

The solution is promoting the Affordable Housing Programme. We must support the President, so that we have more agricultural land to produce more food. I am wondering what our brothers are talking about when they want to scrap affordable housing. Where will you feed Kenyans from? Most of them here close their doors when Kenyans go begging for food.

Sen. Maanzo, you have the Floor.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for an opportunity to comment. I would like to comment on the Statement requested by Sen. Wambua, the Senator for Kitui. The two main rivers, Athi and Tana, especially Athi River where Thwake Dam is being prepared. I hope it is going to be completed in the near future. The pollution from Nairobi is extremely amazing. It is a lot.

I remember the President commissioned some team to begin cleaning the rivers in Nairobi. As soon as the President left, that team left and the water continues to be polluted. I believe it has carcinogens because of the industries. It does not only go through Makueni and Kitui, it goes all the way to Kilifi. Currently, there is even pollution from plastic papers and plastic bottles, and all these go up to the ocean. Something has to be done quickly by NEMA.

The last time I got some explanation from NEMA, they were talking about planting bamboo trees along the river, which I do not think is sufficient. We need to deal with the symptoms and cure the water pollution, particularly from Nairobi River. The NEMA is not doing a serious job on this. It has relaxed on its job and this House has to

Sen. Joyce Korir? Sen. Mandago?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to comment on the Statement sought by Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda on the issue of subdivision of agricultural land. Food security is a serious matter for every nation. Continuous subdivision of agricultural land will put this country at risk of having to import food if we convert our rich soils for commercial purposes.

I want to commend Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda for this Statement and ask the House and the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources that is going to consider this Statement, to consider amending the Land Act.

I speak from experience knowing that the land function is shared between the national Government and county governments. That confusion and the amendments in the Land Act abolished the land boards that were responsible for approving the subdivisions. Therefore, you find surveyors and land officers carrying out subdivisions at the comfort of their offices, dismantling the much-needed agricultural land.

I ask the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources to be diligent and propose amendments, so that where necessary, we stop any further subdivision of agricultural land in this country. If you move around our towns and cities, you will find a lot of empty spaces that have not been developed. We are going further from the towns and cities to subdivide agricultural land. There is need for controlled expansion of towns, so that agricultural land can be preserved for food production.

I, therefore, want to second and support this Statement and ask the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources to consider limiting subdivision of agricultural land.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to speak to the Statement by the Senator for Kitui, Sen. Wambua, on pollution. The concerns about environmental regulation and the power bestowed upon NEMA under the Environmental Management and Coordination Act, (EMCA), 1999, are important. It is also important to note that there are two other institutions that are created by EMCA, the Public Complaints Committee and the National Environment Tribunal, where I served for six years. Therefore, I understand the underpinnings around pollution.

The regulations that are set out that require the intervention of NEMA for various undertakings, including compliance by factories and the problems of pollution arise from the fact that there is no policing or supervision by NEMA to ensure that factories or industries do not discharge pollutants into rivers.

This problem is not unique to Tana River or the Athi River that flows into the ocean. However, there has to be supervision by the arms of NEMA to ensure that what is

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to contribute to Mheshimiwa Wambua's Statement. What is happening in this country is unfortunate. There is a lot of pollution and NEMA has taken a back seat to control pollution in this country. It is not only in Kitui; it is all over this country. If you go around the country, most rivers, especially in Nairobi and the big towns, are so polluted that you get disgusted to take water from there.

Deforestation along the riverbanks is also taking place and those activities also pollute the rivers. We now need to have a serious policy that can be enforced by NEMA, so that all rivers and riverbanks are protected. People must not farm 50 metres from the riverbanks so that, at least, we can contain trees along the riverbank to avoid too much pollution. If you go to the other world, you see rivers passing in the middle of the cities and they look so nice and clean. So, we can also do that in this country.

I also want to contribute to Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda's Statement. Food security is very important in this country. We only receive food from outside. We are becoming consumers and are unable to produce our own food. The subdivision of land should be stopped. Also, land for production of agriculture must be at least 100 acres.

Chairman, we are coming to the close of the Statements’ Hour.

Proceed, Sen. Methu.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I seek your direction. Yesterday, when we were supposed to comment on Statements that were sought, only two Senators commented and we only had six minutes before we adjourned. I am asking whether we can still comment on the Statements that were sought yesterday because we did not comment on them.

Chairman, Sen. Faki, tell us something about NEMA. Every day, there are issues of NEMA in this House. Could you brief us on your plan, as a Committee, on NEMA issues? You remember the CS was here last week and many Members raised issues about NEMA.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I remember last week the Cabinet Secretary for Environment, Climate Change and Forestry was present in the House and the answers that she gave were very unsatisfactory to Members who attended the session.

I think we need a plenary to discuss issues of NEMA in this House. This is because there are issues of pollution of rivers and environment arising from mining activities and pollution of the sea. For instance, in Mombasa, the Mombasa Water and Sanitation Company (MWSC) drains their sewers into the Indian Ocean. My colleague,

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, your instructions to the Chairperson were that he was to propose a way forward to the House. However, he has rewritten the book of Lamentations and added a new chapter. He has just poured the misery, which we are already aware of.

What we expected to hear from him was the proposed way forward for us to assist him as a House.

He has put across a proposal.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, thank you for that direction on the need to have a session with NEMA and the Ministry to discuss these issues. However, when we call those people here, they come with data that they have generated from boardrooms or wherever.

I want to give two Members the opportunity, one from this end and another on my left, to make their comments on the Statements, and then we close at that point.

The matter raised by the Senate Majority Leader in response to the comments by the Chairperson requires that the Speaker gives direction. The meaning of the Senate Majority Leader in the Senate is that he is the Leader of Government Business in the Senate. (Sen. Abass stood at his place)

Sen. Abass, you cannot stand between the Member contributing and the Chair.

That means that he is the leader of Government business in this House. How the leader of the Government business can challenge a legitimate proposal by the Chairman on the failures of his own Government and not lead the House in ensuring that the Cabinet Secretary is brought here begs for the question---

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I think we---

Is Sen. Cheruiyot performing the functions of the Leader of Government Business in this House or he is on a personal agenda like financing World Cup trips to go and watch football in the United States of America (USA)?

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you are out of order. Have your seat.

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, the Chair directed the House on the way forward. I think the Senate Majority Leader is delegating a lot of influence and duties to the Chairpersons of Committees. The Chairperson of the Committee is renowned and progressive. Actually, the Chairperson of the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources has performed more than the former Chairperson.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, allow me to explain something.

Just because of the World Cup issue, you can clarify whether you are---

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I explained myself in very plain and simple English. I wanted to hear the way forward that the Chairperson was proposing to the House. How Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has interpreted that to delegation of responsibility leaves a lot of questions to the House.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

No, nothing is out of order now. Sen. Gataya Mo Fire, take your two minutes to make comments on the Statements. We cannot spend the whole afternoon on points of order. There is a lot of business ahead of us.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, can I be heard in silence, please? I want to support the Statement by Sen. Wambua, the Senator of Kitui County. He has confined himself to Kitui, but this is a national matter. Pollution has become very disastrous in this country. This matter needs a special session for discussion. It is not something that we should take lightly. We need a special sitting for this matter. We have been all over the country and this country is not heading towards the right direction.

The so-called NEMA does not have the capacity to tame. We need to enhance the capacity of NEMA. Kenyans are very indisciplined in terms of pollution. One will be shocked to find very distinguished members of the society littering all over. They even throw dirt in the rivers. It is a matter that needs serious conversation. It is not an issue that can be solved by bringing a Statement or parading NEMA here. It is an issue that requires a whole topic because this country is not heading towards the right direction. We have so many rivers, yet our fish are dying because they cannot exist in those environments.

I congratulate Sen. Wambua for bringing this Statement, though he has confined himself to Kitui. This is a national issue, and it cuts across all the counties in this country.

Sen. Faki who heads the Standing Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources should move with a lot of speed and ensure that we handle all those statements.

Last but not the least, on Statements, Sen. Omogeni, proceed to make your comments as we conclude on that business.

Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, my comment is on the Statement by the Senator for Kisumu County on subdivision and conversion of agricultural land to commercial.

Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, unless we understand the frustration that we have put Kenyan farmers into by failing to support agriculture, this problem of subdivision will never die. What do you expect from tea farmers in Kericho, Kisii, Nyamira and Bomet counties if you are paying them a bonus of Kshs12,000? They will convert their houses and land into commercial user, so that they can build commercial homes or apartments to get better income. If the Government wants to address this problem of subdivision, they have to support the income of farmers.

Sen. Cherarkey, if you want to do affordable housing, you should understand the person who needs affordable housing. For instance, do affordable housing in Kisii

Hon. Senators, I have a Communication from the Chair about the visiting delegation of teachers and students from St. Lucia Irobo Junior School, Kakamega County.

Hon. Senators, I would like to acknowledge the presence of a visiting delegation of eight teachers and 44 students.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. Before I invite the children to follow the proceedings, I would like to bring to your attention that the Temporary Speaker, the distinguished Sen. Catherine Mumma, is a daughter of the same village that you come from. Thanks to her excessive beauty, she managed to get married in the neighbourhood to our good in-laws.

On a point of order.

I think you are late for the point of order. He has already finished.

Intervention.

Sen. Hezena, what is your intervention?

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. We really respect the Senator, the bullfighter, Boni Khalwale, but as he can see, the Temporary Speaker at this moment is also a lady from Mulembe nation, who came to this House through affirmative action. Is Sen. Boni Khalwale undermining the women who get to Parliament through affirmative action?

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Sen. Khalwale, in one minute, please confirm that you have respect for Members of the Senate or Parliament, who are here through affirmative action.

Sen (Dr.) Khalwale: Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Order, Senators.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I am the only Member of Parliament (MP) in this House who was part of drafting of the Constitution that created affirmative action. It is because of the acknowledgement that women and youth are faced with challenges that we gave you that opportunity. The intention of that particular clause was for nominated members to serve for one term and, thereafter, vacate office to pave way for others as they vie and compete.

As a husband of several wives and a father of very many children, most of them being girls, I respect women. What would I have against them?

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Sen. Khalwale, thank you for confirming that Nominated Members are equal and useful in this House.

Sen. Cherarkey, what is your issue?

Kumbe wewe ni muoga kiasi hiki? Kama wewe ndio waluhya wanategemea---

Order, Senate Majority Leader.

Madam Temporary Speaker, on a point of intervention and follow-up. I confirm that we are proud of all Members who come to the House through affirmative action; they are even doing better than elected Members.

Sen. Cherarkey, let me guide you; you do not need to read it.

Hon. Senators, this is a Petition that Sen. Cherarkey and the Senate Minority leader received from a group of people at the gate. I think all you need to do is table it and we will refer it to the relevant committee.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I remember the last communication was that when you are tabling something, you must, at least, tell the House what it is about.

No, you already actually introduced it. You already introduced what it is. You do not have to read it.

Okay. Madam Temporary Speaker, with your indulgence, I request that I table this Petition and request that there was an earlier petition we tabled last time on a similar issue. Can you---

No, no, no. Sen. Cherarkey, we are focusing on this particular Petition, please.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to table and request for your indulgence through the Standing Committee on Health to fast-track.

I thank you. (Sen. Cherarkey laid the document on the Table)

Senate Majority Leader, you may proceed.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am concerned about the process that has been followed on this Petition. This has nothing to do with the substance of the Petition. The procedure that you are allowing----

Constitutionally, members of the public are allowed to petition this House, which is perfectly in order. I am concerned about the manner in which petitions are processed and brought to this House.

These present petitioners, who are conveying their message through the Senate Minority Leader and Sen. Cherarkey, came before Parliament this afternoon at around

Thank you, Senate Majority Leader, for your concern.

Hon. Senators, allow me to guide that this Petition should be submitted to the Secretariat to be processed before it goes to the relevant committee. I believe and my

Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for your indulgence. It is just on the same issue. I know you have given directions on it. The direction and guidance that we need from the Chair is whether there is a single door through which all matters that are processed on the Floor must follow. Yes, we can do our procession peacefully; the leaders can receive documents, petitioning us on any issue on land. However, for the matter to be properly before the House, it must be processed through the office of the Speaker and the office of the Clerk of the Senate.

Tomorrow, I will also get a petition from the people of Kitui County on the pollution of the Rivers Athi and Tana, and I will come and read it here without it being processed through the proper channels. I think that guidance is important.

Thank you, Sen. Wambua. You are just reiterating what I have said, and you will recall I stopped Sen. Cherarkey from reading the Petition and asked that he just tables it. So, allow that we proceed to the Next Order.

Senator for Nairobi City County, Sen. Sifuna.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am an ardent defender of the rights under Article 37 of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010 and the right to petition Parliament.

Processions, by their nature, are very disruptive. Of course, we are allowed only certain restrictions under Article 37 that you will be peaceable and unarmed. However, people can be noisy when petitioning. So, I feel like the directive that the Speaker has given is a bit restrictive to people who would want to petition Parliament.

Previously, I knew that our attention had been brought to the presence of petitioners outside our gate through vuvuzelas, which can be very disruptive and the Speaker has sent us to receive those petitions.

I fear that the direction that you have given might have gone a bit too far. Processions, by their nature, are disruptive to the flow of traffic; they are disruptive to ordinary life, but that is what the Constitution expects.

Hon. Senators, I think the Senator for Nairobi City County is right that the provision in the Constitution talks about peaceful procession and unarmed. So, to the extent that they are peaceful and unarmed, those processions should be acceptable. That is agreed.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for the opportunity to move this, Bill.

I beg to move that The County Government Laws (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No.52 of 2024), be now read a Second Time.

Madam Temporary Speaker, this Bill actually touches on the work and the responsibilities of deputy governors. We very well know that they live under a lot of pressure from the governors. This Bill is actually trying to see how---

Hon. Senators, Senate Majority Leader, please, kindly, Senator for Kakamega and the Senate Majority Leader, let us accord some respect to the Senator who is reading the Bill. Let us listen, please.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the County Governments Laws (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No.52 of 2024) seeks to amend and allow the county government to provide specific functions for the office of the deputy governor. In addition, it also amends the Intergovernmental Relations Act, 2012 and connected purposes.

Madam Temporary Speaker, all Senators present are aware that according to statistics gathered during our stakeholder engagement with deputy governors, 42 deputy governors are currently not on speaking terms with their governors. These two leaders are elected together. They sit down, agree and jointly marshal votes to get into office. However, once they assume office, we know what follows; the governors immediately turn on their deputy governors. In fact, we have had deputy governors brought to this Chamber on impeachment Motions. This is a very important Bill touching directly on devolution.

Sen. Kathuri, did you move that the Bill be read a Second Time?

Yes, I did.

That is fine. Proceed.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am a seasoned legislator. I moved the Bill to be read a Second Time despite the noise coming from behind me. The HANSARD will bear me witness.

This Bill proposes to assign specific functions to deputy governors. These include the general administration of the county government and overseeing the implementation of county executive committee decisions. All the Senators in this House are well aware of the challenges between governors and deputy governors.

I am also proposing that deputy governors undertake the duties of a specified portfolio within the county executive committee as assigned by the governor. They should also represent the governors and the county governments in various official capacities in the national and county levels of government.

At the moment, no deputy governor is permitted to represent the governor at the Council of Governors (CoG). The governors have completely refused. Consequently, deputy governors are sidelined. I hesitate to use the phrase 'flower girls' or 'flower boys,' as my colleague here is a champion for gender rights. However, I emphasise that deputy governors have been reduced---

Sen. Kathuri, we do not have flower boys, we have page boys.

No, I meant flower boys in another connotation. The Senate Majority Leader (Sen. Cheruiyot): They are called page boys.

No, I am not referring to weddings. There are men and boys who have become flower boys.

Proceed, Senator.

I do not want to be very specific on a particular---

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Sen. Asige, what is your point of order?

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for the opportunity. This is a point of clarification. The Senator for Meru, being a very seasoned legislator, as he has stated, understands that this House is visible to the public. Indeed, we are here not to talk to ourselves, but to educate the general public across the country.

When the Senator uses terms like 'flower boys' and 'flower girls,' I fail to see how that educates the public on the Bill he is moving. He must ensure that all Members and the public understand his arguments clearly. May he, therefore, explain and clarify what he means by 'flower girls' and 'flower boys' in county governments, so that both this House and the public are well informed?

Thank you.

Sen. Kathuri, please, explain who the flower boys and flower girls are.

Madam Temporary Speaker, in the interest of managing our time, I withdraw that phrasing, so that we can make progress. I want to allow Hon. Members to debate this important Bill.

As I was stating, we want deputy governors to facilitate and maintain effective intergovernmental relations. At present, no governor allows a deputy governor to represent them in national forums alongside the President or Deputy President. Even when incapacitated, governors have seemingly agreed never to allow deputy governors to represent the county beyond its borders.

I wish to quote Professor Ben Nwabueze. He said- “Concentration of government powers in the hands of one individual is the very definition of dictatorship and absolute power is by its very nature arbitrary capricious and despotic.” In analysing this situation, when a President is elected, significant duties are assigned to the Deputy President. However, deputy governors suffer because most governors fail to transmit budget allocations to their offices. Consequently, these deputy governors sometimes have to buy tea for their offices and fuel their official vehicles out of their own pockets because their offices lack dedicated funding.

In Parliament, the Budget and Appropriations Committee allocates funds directly to both the Office of the President and the Office of the Deputy President. Therefore, this Bill will compel county assemblies to approve budget allocations specifically for the Office of the Deputy Governor.

I remember during the disputes in Meru County, the Deputy Governor's water supply and electricity were disconnected and he had no official vehicle. He survived by a miracle. These deputy governors have come together to request that this House passes this Bill, so that they are empowered to function properly. Many of them are professionals who could add significant value to their respective county governments, yet they are prevented from carrying out any meaningful work.

Madam Temporary Speaker, this Bill comes at the right time. We were originally meant to consider this Bill during our Senate sittings in Busia, which would have provided an ideal forum for discussion. Nevertheless, the timing now is most opportune.

The Fourth Senate has already considered the proposed removal from office of two deputy governors; Dr. William Oduol of Siaya County and Dr. Robert Monda of Kisii County. In both impeachment proceedings, the legislative gap stemming from a lack of clearly defined functions for deputy governors was glaringly evident. Across many counties, this ambiguity has heightened tensions between governors and their deputies, ultimately destabilising service delivery.

Madam Temporary Speaker, as I noted, we held engagements with all the deputy governors and their representatives. I wish to commend the Standing Committee that processed this Bill, chaired by Sen. Abass. They did very good work. We processed this Bill without any hitches.

Article 179 of the Constitution of Kenya establishes the county executive committee, comprising the governor, the deputy governor and members appointed by the governor with the approval of the county assembly. However, in most county governments, deputy governors do not even know when the Cabinet sits. They do not

Sen. Cherarkey, before you second, allow me to make this Communication. (Interruption of debate on Bill)

Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to welcome the students and teachers from Tenwek High School.

Tenwek High School, Madam Temporary Speaker, is my school. That is the school where I honed my academic and political career. I want to celebrate them today.

I was just going to call Sen. Commissioner, Joyce Korir, to also give her words of welcome. In one minute, welcome.

Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to welcome our students and the teachers from Tenwek High. As has been said by the hon. Senator, this is one of the best-performing schools in the entire region. I want to congratulate them.

I also want to appreciate the teachers for taking this opportunity to bring them here to learn how the business of this House is conducted. I want to say that this is also a school that has produced several leaders, as has been said by the hon. Senator. This is one of the schools where my father-in-law was a student. My husband and my firstborn son were also students there. So, it is a school that has made us proud. I want to say that we wish them all the best. I welcome them to this House. This is where they belong.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Senators, I see Sen. Onyonka frantically asking. I do not know what his connection is.

Sen. Onyonka, one minute, please.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I wanted to say that I also share a history with Tenwek. I think I should say something.

I know Sen. Cherarkey does not realise that, as he keeps saying how Matiang’i is a bad man, many of our patients actually go to Tenwek Hospital, which is one of the best hospitals in Kenya. I want to tell the young men and the teachers up here that we are very proud that the hospital has actually been providing services to our people.

I wish to confirm that Tenwek is an excellent hospital. Sen. Cherarkey, you may now second the---

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. As I second the County Governments Laws (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No. 52 of 2024), I appreciate the nexus that Sen. Onyonka is trying to create. All the same, let me extend a warm welcome to the teachers and students of Tenwek Boys High School. We are proud. I think it is one of the best schools in the country.

Of course, Kapsabet Boys' where I went to is one of the top schools. I want to encourage them to keep the spirit because from Kapsabet Boys, we have produced two Presidents; the Fifth president, Dr. William Ruto, the former President Moi and of course, yours truly. So, please, work hard. We want to see you up there.

We are proud that your Senator does not say ‘senator, your ‘sinator’, who is your presidium is also a proud alumnus of that school and one of the top lawyers in the country. We also have Sen. Commissioner, Joyce Korir.

I wish I would have joined you on Saturday to celebrate--- Thank you.

I hope his time is running.

Yes, of course it is running, Madam Temporary Speaker. I would have joined you on Saturday, but your Senator knows why. (Resumption of debate on Bill) Madam Temporary Speaker, let me begin by seconding the Bill. I have received so many phone calls from deputy governors, especially my brother, the distinguished Senator of Meru, Njuri Ncheke elder, the Deputy Speaker, a seasoned legislator, Kathuri Murungi and one of the proponents of Mt. Kenya East and Mt. Kenya East spokesperson has aptly put it, most of our deputy governors have been reduced to reading newspapers.

You know, nowadays there are some national newspapers, like The Standard, which give us funny and interesting stories that do not add up. They like reading. So, they have been reduced to taking water, reading newspapers and waiting for lunchtime to go. One thing is clear; their offices are running dry. They do not have official vehicles. They do not have fuel. They do not have an office allocation. They do not have anything.

You have to appreciate that most of the deputy governors are suffering from depression, because if a governor notices that you are a threat to their political dominance in the county, they would want to vanquish you.

I remember the story of Dr. Robert Monda from Kisii, where there was a political witch-hunt until he was hounded out of office. I remember the Deputy Governor of Uasin Gishu, Engineer Barorot, who was politically hounded out of office through frustration, lack of cars and many other things.

I remember the impeachment of CPA William Oduol. The impeachment came to this House from Siaya. We had impeachment proceedings in this House. He was

On a point of order!

What is your point of order, Sen. Eddy?

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am rising under Standing Order No.101 on imputing improper motive. The impeachment process of deputy governors affects this House both in reputation and on duty.

Sen. Eddy, when raising a point of order, you go straight to the offending aspect.

That is where I am going to.

No, you seem to be laying some background on something. Just go to the offending bit, please.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I do not know whether you got what the Senator for Nandi said. He said that the impeachment of Dr. Monda of Kisii County was a political witch-hunt. Remember this House pronounced itself on the issue and impeached Dr. Monda. Does it not impute improper motive on the entire House that went through that case and impeached Dr. Monda? If he says it was a political witch- hunt, then it affects the House that made the decision.

That is true. Sen. Cherarkey, you will explain how the impeachment of Dr. Monda was a political witch-hunt, and provide evidence. If you do not have that evidence, please withdraw and proceed with your contribution.

Madam Temporary Speaker, impeachment is a political process. I expected the new Deputy Minority Whip to be well-versed. I am saying it is part of a political process, which is attributed---

Sen. Cherarkey, please substantiate that it was a witch-hunt. That is actually what we are saying. Everybody knows it is a political process as well.

Let me replace that by saying it was a political process.

Then withdraw the word “witch-hunt”.

I withdraw the word “witch-hunt” and replace it with “political process”.

That is okay.

Madam Temporary Speaker, when you go there, you will understand the dynamics of impeachment. What I was saying is that even CPA William Oduol of Siaya---

Madam Temporary Speaker, it is good that you are a Member of the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations. I think you are the Vice-Chairperson. He has even petitioned your committee regarding inaccessibility of his office. After the impeachment process failed, the Governor and his people blocked access for CPA William Oduol, who is the duly elected Deputy Governor of Siaya even after this House

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Mine will be quick since I do not want to disrupt the flow of thought of Sen. Cherarkey because that is what he does to all of us. Therefore, I do not want to serve him with his own medicine.

He said that the President allowed him some budget. I would like him to substantiate because I thought the budget-making process is a preserve of Parliament. I think it is Parliament that approves budgets of all Government agencies in the Republic.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I did not talk about the budget. I said he allowed him to chair some committees of the Cabinet.

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. The HANSARD should be produced so that we know what he actually said. (Sen. Cherarkey stood in his place)

Sen. Cherarkey, please sit down. (Sen. Cherarkey sat in his place)

Sen. Cherarkey said that the President allowed him some budget. That is exactly what I heard. If he is disputing that, that is not what he said, the HANSARD should be produced.

Sen. Cherarkey, let us not pull and push. You know what you said and whether it is appropriate or not. Therefore, you should simply withdraw.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the budget-making process starts with the Executive. I can see the Senate Deputy Minority Whip is here. He is also a

No. Sorry, just proceed.

Okay. What I was saying is that if you get a good boss like President William Ruto, even the impeached Deputy President was allowed latitude on office operations. He could chair Cabinet meetings and some committees of the Cabinet. He was allowed to carry out office operations as per the law.

Under the Constitution, the Deputy President is the principal assistant of the President. Even the current Deputy President, Prof. Kindiki, enjoys latitude on office operations. In fact, he has been allowed to chair some committees of the Cabinet.

I know of governors who work well with their deputies. What we are trying to do is to put it in the law. We are not being prescriptive because we want to assist deputy governors because when you meet most of them---

I would like to listen to Sen. Beatrice Ogola, who was a County Executive Committee Member (CECM) previously and Sen. Karungo Thang’wa, although he was impeached. I would like to get their reasoning on how a Cabinet---

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. I do not know why we keep on entertaining this noisemaker every time. Instead of discussing substantive issues, he always brings drama in the Senate. I am in this Senate because I was elected by the people of Kiambu. The law is very clear that if you are impeached, you should not be elected. I was elected and that is why I am here.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I do not understand. He should come here and apologise. We should not allow Sen. Cherarkey to use derogatory terms to demean people in this Senate. Yesterday, we were called grasshoppers. In Rwanda, they called people cockroaches and that is why people fought. We should not allow that to happen.

Order, Sen. Thang’wa. You can now sit. (Sen. Thang’wa sat at his place) Sen. Cherarkey, do you have any evidence that Sen. Thang’wa was ever impeached? Please, confirm that you have evidence that he was impeached. If you do not have that evidence, please withdraw.

Madam Temporary Speaker, there are no noisemakers in the Senate. Perhaps it escaped your attention.

Sen. Cherarkey, you will be guided by the Chair, after which you will raise whatever issues you have.

I have all the evidence that he was impeached, and I will table it tomorrow.

During tomorrow’s session, Sen. Cherarkey will table evidence of Sen. Thang’wa being impeached.

Yes. What about the ‘noisemaker’ part? Could he withdraw because there are no noisemakers here?

Sen. Thang’wa, please withdraw your reference to noisemakers. (Sen. Methu spoke off record) Sen. Methu, I can hear what you are saying. You are asking him to defy the Chair, which is not right. Please, withdraw and let us proceed.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I withdraw use of the word “noisemaker” and instead say he makes a lot of noise.

I will not accept that. Please, just withdraw.

Madam Temporary Speaker, it is only that I respect you, I do not respect Sen. Cherarkey.

I withdraw.

Senator, just withdraw. Sen. Cherarkey, you realise you are spending most of the time not speaking to the Bill. Actually, you might want to help yourself on this.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the rules of debate are very clear. I am allowed in the next few minutes to converse and give real-life examples. We need to interrelate what we are legislating on with what is happening on the ground. I will restrict myself, as guided and thank you for that.

We are looking at deputy governors who can work simultaneously. That is why I was saying, in good faith, that I would want to listen to people who have become Chief Executive Committee Members (CECMs) in counties, so that they can tell us what really goes on. I know a number of deputy governors who have worked very well with their governors.

Madam Temporary Speaker, it is sad that most of these deputy governors and governors normally work together in a county to win votes. However, when they go into running the government, like what we saw in Kericho, for example, because I am well- versed, that is why they do an Azimio-like thing. When they start running the government, the divorce becomes noisy, messy, and with a lot of casualties, to the detriment of the performance in the running of the affairs of a county government. That is why we are saying, of course, we are aware under Article 179 that the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) is the governor, and the deputy governor is the deputy CEO. We are proposing that the deputy governor be given a position to be a CECM in charge of any department and participate.

We are also aware that they can represent governors in various official capacities, both in the national and county governments. This also includes funerals and birthday parties. I have seen most of the deputy governors, when in social functions, even when mourning somebody, they insist that they represent the governor in giving the

Sen. Cherarkey, it is not you who calls upon the others to contribute. You may sit down.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. This is a very important Bill. I support it. The Mover of this Bill, as he said, our Deputy Speaker, is also a seasoned political leader in this country. I have been impressed by how many Bills he has been able to pass in terms of responding to some of the needs in the counties.

Madam Temporary Speaker, remember that last year, the Deputy Speaker worked on the Bill that could bring about sanity between the county governments and the county assemblies. The Bill ensures that there is autonomy of the county assemblies. It helps in running their own accounts and not to depend on the County Revenue Fund (CRF) entirely. It also helps in dealing with their budgetary needs, so that there can be some sanity in terms of oversight by the Members of the County Assemblies (MCAs). This is also one of those areas that the Deputy Speaker has spotted in terms of giving the deputy governors a very good direction of getting proper assignments.

Madam Temporary Speaker, our governors have become rogue. Where one or two are doing well, we can congratulate them. We have a menace in the country where the governors are completely sidelining their deputies, especially in financial allocations and in things they can be able to do. The way the dignity of this office was crafted by the Constitution was to the effect that if you strip anybody of their responsibility in the Constitution, then you strip off the dignity of the people in that particular office. The Constitution intended that when you have a deputy governor, they must be accorded the same executive status that the governor enjoys. These offices are about dignifying the people themselves.

We know how our counties are created, where, for somebody to be a deputy of a governor, it must be a game of numbers. One person will bring perhaps their region, clan or ethnic group to the mortgage of politics, where they agree in respect of that particular community or region. If you end up mistreating that particular deputy governor, you are mistreating the people who gave you their trust by voting for you.

I will give an example of Migori County. In Migori County, the chemistry has always been that when you take somebody from the Luo side, of course, we have got a very serious cosmopolitan, without any disregard to any community in Migori County--- Migori County is one of the counties in Nyanza that is extremely cosmopolitan. We have the Somalis in that community and we have always elected hon. Members from that community. We have the Luo community and we have always elected members of that community. We have the Kuria and Kisii communities that are very industrious. It happens that since the inception of counties as a devolved system, the Luo side always takes a deputy governor from the Kuria side to run together. If you start mistreating that particular deputy governor from Kuria, you will be mistreating, disrespecting and removing the dignity of the people of Kuria who voted for you. Therefore, it is extremely important to not just stop at assigning these duties. This is because when I read this Bill, I liked its concept and intention. However, my worry is it merely solves the problem.

Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Speaker. With your kind indulgence, please allow me to congratulate my brother, who is my agemate, Sen. Oketch Gicheru, on his appointment as the Senate Deputy Minority Whip.

We have been here for four years and we have seen the clock go all around. I was here when Sen. Sifuna was hounding the Senator for Isiolo County out of office. We were all here and we were happy about it. Sen. Thang’wa and I were removed from office by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. He is the one who moved the Motion, but he is now with us in the trenches. We have seen everything and we shall see everything.

I congratulate Sen. Oketch Gicheru and I want to tell him to enjoy it while it lasts. He is now the Senate Deputy Minority Whip, the Chairperson of the Committee on Roads and Transportation and the Vice-Chairperson of the Committee on County Public Investments and Special Funds. He should enjoy it while it lasts. We have been there. He might join us in the trenches someday.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker for giving me an opportunity to weigh in my thoughts on this particular Bill. I have spoken about these many times. I would want to have a very serious conversation with Sen. Oketch Gicheru because from his contribution, he has more problems with the Bill than he supports it. In fact, he has proposed more amendments and given less support to what is contained in this Bill.

I feel that the Mover of this Bill, the Hon. Senator for Meru, is trying to cure a headache by cutting off the neck. He is actually trying to cure a diarrhoea by stitching the exit. There are two things we cannot legislate.

Sen. Olekina, you have the Floor.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. Let me begin by appreciating the good Senator of Meru for taking some time to try to resolve a dispute.

The intention of the Bill is very good, but the drafting of this Bill risks creating another centre of power. It will worsen the current situation in the conflict between the governors and the deputy governors.

I feel the struggles, the challenges that the deputy governors go through, but honestly, we have to be very careful not to create a huge problem in the county in devolution that we may no longer be able to resolve.

In this House, Madam Temporary Speaker, your Chair ruled that only Cabinet Secretaries appear before committees of this House to respond to matters that affect their respective departments, not principal secretaries. When we now come up with the legislation and we are not specific in terms of the roles of a deputy governor by saying that, when the governor fails to appear in the Summit, then you send the deputy governor without being specific, it will create serious problems.

This Bill will make sense if it is very clear and I thought that the framers of the Constitution were very clear when they created the position of the deputy governor, which was clearly to deputise the governor, to carry out the functions that the governor.

The problem is money. Our governors are living a lavish life and, of course, the deputy governors envy them because they have both traversed their counties seeking votes; they have gone as a team. In most cases, I will try to demystify this further down.

In our cultures, particularly the pastoralist, a governor is given more support if he selects a deputy from a very strong clan. Like in the Maasai community, we have two parallel clans. We have one called Odomong’i, which is the red cow and the other one is Orok Kiteng’, which is the black cow. So, when you look at the politics of Kajiado and Narok counties, in most cases, if a governor or a candidate is seeking to appoint a deputy

Senators, please.

Then, all of a sudden, you, as the deputy governor, continue to live in that apartment in Kilimani, but the governor who has come in now has a manicured mansion in Karen. That is where the problem is. The problem is not that Article 179, which seems to be misunderstood here.

This is why I wonder whether we, the politicians, become very adamant and refuse to take advice from the secretariat. I am trying to understand how the drafters of this legislation would repeat what is already in the law, Article 179(2) of the Constitution of Kenya; a county governor and the deputy governor are members of the executive committee. Why then would we include such a provision in this proposed law? I do not know whether excessive pressure was placed on the drafters to include it, whether it was an attempt to seek relevance or simply an oversight.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I wish to reiterate that the intention behind this Bill sponsored by the Deputy Speaker is noble. I feel the pressure faced by the deputy governors, much of it is monetary. Some of them are denied funds and cannot even fuel their official vehicles. If our goal is to clarify that the deputy governor deputizes the governor, let us ensure that their budget is clearly ring-fenced, so they do not depend on the Governor just to fuel their vehicles.

We have faced similar challenges with county assemblies, where we debated amending the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 to guarantee their financial autonomy. Should we not, therefore, look at the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 or the County Governments Act, 2012 to clarify the allocation of funds to the office of the Deputy Governor? That the deputy governor being the deputy to the Governor, must have a clear, dedicated budget or percentage of the budget to carry out their functions? That is where the main problem lies.

Secondly, I empathize with the frustration felt by deputy governors. Having traversed the county on a joint campaign, one assumes office as Deputy only to be given no responsibilities at all. They are left sitting in an office, driving a fancy car that often runs out of fuel and forced to fight simply to get operational funding. Naturally, they plead for their roles to be explicitly defined.

Therefore, I do not belong to the school of thought that believes we should kill this Bill. Instead, we ought to work on the draft to ensure it aligns with the Constitution. In its current form, the Bill risks creating two centres of power, which will only perpetuate conflicts between governors and deputy governors.

If we want to make devolution work, we must first add a Clause establishing a dispute-resolution mechanism to resolve conflict between the deputy governor and the governor. I hope the Deputy Speaker will think about this. We should also empower

Sen. Olekina---

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am glad to see you. You are finally here.

I want you to take note of the change of the Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. You change so often that sometimes we do not even notice.

It is imperative that anyone entrusted with responsibility carries it out diligently. There are counties where the governor and deputy governor work very well together. My two cents on this matter is that before embarking on campaigns, the two leaders should execute a legally binding memorandum. This will ensure they can run the county effectively without creating two centres of power.

A couple of years ago, this House was asked to impeach the Deputy Governor of Siaya County. However, we found no merits to sustain the impeachment. What was happening was purely a personality conflict between Governor James Orengo and his Deputy. Should we allow egoism to dictate how governance is exercised? My answer is no.

I encourage the Deputy Speaker to personally review every Clause in this Bill because several proposed provisions, particularly Clause 32, are repetitive and will create confusion and duplicate centres of power. Devolution should not be about power struggles, but delivering services to the people.

Finally, let me repeat what I stated earlier because it is very important: The intention of this Bill is noble, but the problem lies in its drafting. Let us clearly define the role of the Deputy Governor. If we cannot do so, let us do away with the office altogether. Should a vacancy arise, for instance if a governor dies, a new election should be called to elect a new governor.

Across most of our 47 counties, there is no harmonious working relationship between the governor and the deputy governor. In fact, county administration is

Thank you, Sen. Olekina. Sen. Mariam, proceed. (Sen. Thang’wa spoke off record) Sen. Thang'wa, the Chair who preceded me had already indicated the justification for granting Sen. Mariam the opportunity to speak ahead of you. While I acknowledge that according to the queue in the system Sen. Maanzo was next in line to speak, the Chair retains the discretion to reorder the sequence to allow Members to contribute effectively.

Sen. Mariam, you have the floor.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. First, I congratulate the Deputy Speaker for coming up with this Bill that will solve some problems. Everything has been highlighted. However, I wanted to highlight one thing instead of repeating myself.

In the primary Act, the deputy governors were only given five roles. In this Bill, they have been given about 10 roles. I have an issue with one on Clause 32(1)(g) which states; -

The deputy governor shall: - “Attend county executive meetings as a member of the county executive committee pursuant to Article 179(2) of the Constitution and be entitled to reasonable notice of county executive meetings.” Yes, it has been highlighted in Article 179(2), as the members of the County Executive Committee Member (CECM), but in that Article, and in the primary Act, it is silent on the attendance of the Deputy Governor to the CECM meetings. That shows that it is open. He can either attend or not. This amendment restricts him; he must attend; if he is absent, there must be a notice. There must also be a notice to be given to the deputy governor, because currently, when the CECM holds a meeting, the current governors and deputy governors must be aware. There must also be a notice to be given.

Clause 32(1)(h) states as follows:- “From time to time appear before the county assembly to respond to questions regarding the implementation of county development projects by the county executive committee.”

Sen. Maanzo.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I want to go back to the Constitution. You know how the county executive is formed.

Article 179(4) states as follows: - “The county governor and the deputy county governor are the chief executive and deputy chief executive of the county, respectively.” In Article 179(5) it states as follows: -

On a point of order!

There is nothing out of order. Sen. Cherarkey, I know you do not like the second Deputy President. When you become---

Sen. Maanzo, let me allow Sen. Cherarkey to raise his point of order. (Sen. Methu and Sen. Thang’wa spoke off record) Sen. Methu and Sen. Thang’wa, the Chair is one. I have allowed Sen. Cherarkey to raise his point of order.

Sen. Cherarkey, proceed. It is the Chair to determine whether it is a point of order or otherwise.

Do I proceed when there are heckles?

Proceed.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No.105 on responsibility for statement of fact. Straight to the point, have you heard Senior Counsel Sen. Maanzo alluding that the arrangement between President William Ruto and the impeached Deputy President Rigathi Gachagua was 50-50. Could he table evidence as per Standing Order No.105 to show that there was a 50-50 arrangement?

I yield.

Sen. Maanzo, you have heard the point of order. Are you able to table any document to that effect? If not, you should do otherwise.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I cannot table evidence but it is a matter of fact. I withdraw that but the way they shared Government position was a matter of fact. The point I was trying to drive is that when there is president and their deputy or governor and their deputy, sometimes there are political---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Maanzo, please take your seat. (Sen. Maanzo sat at his place) What is your point of order, Sen. Kinyua?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No.105 on responsibility for statement of fact. I agree with Sen. Maanzo that it was a 50-50 arrangement because I was a Member of the United Democratic Alliance (UDA). After the disagreement between former Deputy President Rigathi Gachagua and the President,

What is your point of order?

I am confirming what Sen. Maanzo is saying. It was a 50-50 arrangement.

You are out of order. Take your seat Sen. Kinyua.

Sen Maanzo, proceed.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am sure some of us who will want to run for governor one day will face that reality. You may have to come up with a political agreement. I think that is what leads to problems after elections.

Ordinarily under the law, a governor is supposed to take full charge of government and the deputy is a principal assistant. I think that is what the Deputy Speaker, Sen. Kathuri, is seeking to address. We know there have been concerns. I wish we looked at the public participation report to know how different deputy governors responded.

I have heard those cries myself. I have helped to settle situations where a governor and their deputy have differed and the county suffers because of lack of development due to a hostile political situation. Eventually we must find a solution to this.

During Third Reading, we need to redraft this Amendment Bill to suit the situation. That is why public participation is very important in any legislation. This includes feedback from the people and the adoption of that feedback.

This House has already given feedback. Luckily, we have very experienced people here. Sen. Thang’wa and Sen. Methu have served in counties. They understand this relationship very well.

They have contributed well. I believe some will do even better after me. I have also listened to Sen. Mariam. She has a lot of experience from the county she comes from.

Those who have worked in county governments in senior positions before can guide us as representatives. I wish Sen. Murango were here. He was a Member of the County Assembly (MCA) in Kirinyaga County. He now wants to become the Governor there. I am sure he will be a very good Governor.

We must draw from that experience. Using the experience of Sen. Methu and Sen. Thang’wa, we can redraft this and come up with a solution to the problem we are trying to solve.

Sen. Methu has put it very well. It is like trying to cure diarrhoea by blocking the exit. You increase the problems and the person is likely to die. We are likely to increase the problem between the governor and the deputy governor.

We, as a Senate, believe in devolution. We want to solve this problem. We want counties to run well. From my Makueni experience---

Sen. Cherarkey, allow Sen. Maanzo to conclude.

I am also about to wind up. I am coming to the positive side of things. In Kenya, there are many counties with good examples.

Sen. Maanzo, you are addressing the Chair, not Sen. Cherarkey.

Yes. I am addressing the nation and I have stated facts.

Sen. Maanzo, you have the Floor. Do not speak to your colleague. Proceed.

The interruptions are too many. Does Sen. Cherarkey want to run the Senate alone? If you cannot allow others to think, then you should talk alone.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to conclude. There are many examples of good working relationships in counties. One is Makueni. The Governor of Makueni and the deputy governor of Makueni work well. In Makueni, the practice is that if the governor is male, the deputy is female. In the future, if the governor is female, the deputy will be male. This balances gender parity.

Currently, we have a Deputy Governor who is a former County Commissioner. She has long experience in government. She has come out strongly to stabilise the government. She ensures the government is run well technically. Even our national days are better now. Previously, national days had the governor, the county commissioner and a few people. Now in Makueni, it is a fully-fledged occasion. This is a good example of a governor and deputy governor working together.

Even without this regulation, many governors and deputy governors can work together. We cannot regulate relationships through law. It must be created. There must be a willingness. There must be respect between the governor and the deputy. The Deputy must be allowed to deputize the Governor.

If that happens, there will be no problems. There will be no need for this regulation. Unfortunately, in several counties, there have been problems. We have seen governors bringing deputies here for impeachment. Some have been impeached. Others have not. Therefore, there is need to make this law better. Look at it at the Third Reading and ensure it serves the country.

Thank you. I support.

Proceed, Sen. Thang’wa.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I also want to contribute to this important Bill that seeks to give powers to the deputy governors. I happen to be a Member of the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations. We went through this Bill and gave our observations and recommendations.

Before I say whether I am supporting or opposing this Bill, I just wanted it to sink in your mind and imagine having a deputy governor like Sen. Cherarkey. So, now with that in your mind, you realise that you do not need this kind of law. The law is very clear.

Sen. Thang’wa, I do not want to allow Sen. Cherarkey to interrupt you. I do not find it offensive by referring him in any other manner and specific as you have done. However, watch the content of your speech especially in reference to your colleague Senator or any other person who is not in this House.

Sen. Thang’wa Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I am well guided.

Sen. Tom Ojienda, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

With a very heavy heart, I agree with Sen. Thang’wa on a number of issues. A close reading of Article 179 that confers executive power to the CEO of the county who is the governor, while holding the power in the county to appoint and execute all that has to be done in the county, has the mandate to delegate executive power to the deputy governor. What this Bill does is try to direct the governor to share executive power with the deputy governor and CECMs as properly designated by the Constitution.

This is an unconstitutional amendment to the Constitution. The intention of this Bill is to undermine the very provisions that the Constitution clearly provides for. The proper way to deal with the power of deputy governors is to bring an amendment to the Constitution. Short of that amendment, it is impossible through a Bill brought before Senate to kind of recraft the Constitution in a manner that is unconstitutionally, trying to deviate from constitutional provisions.

Again, let me also agree with Sen. Thang’wa on this; this Bill was brought against the backdrop of the impeachment of the governor of Meru County, whose action is still in court. At some point, she was my client who has since been replaced with the deputy governor, the substantive governor of Meru County. I understand that that Governor has suddenly become very popular after her impeachment.

The point here is that this Bill may have served its purpose and should have been dropped at this point because it was tailor-made for purposes of impeachment of the Governor of Meru County.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we have examples of counties where deputy governors and governors work together for the people. Let me give you an example of my own County, Kisumu, where the Deputy Governor, Dr. Ochieng’ Owili, is sitting pretty; he is a sitting pretty duck, he is out there, he only does assignments given to him by the governor. Other times, he is out there, he is idle; he does not perform any duty unless Governor Nyong'o assigns him that role. That shows you that deputy governors who are not overzealous, who are not too keen to carve their own space, work well with governors who are in office.

Thank you, Sen, (Prof.) Tom Ojienda.

Sen. Kinyua, you may proceed.

Asante, Bw. Spika wa Muda kwa kunipa fursa hii. Kwanza kabisa, nampongeza Seneta wa Meru, Naibu Spika, kwa Mswada huu aliouleta katika Bunge hili. Amejaribu kutuliza mgogoro ulioko kati ya magavana na manaibu wao

Itakumbukwa kuwa katika Seneti iliyopita, mimi nilikuwa Mwenyekiti wa Kamati ya Ugatuzi na Mahusiano kati ya Serikali. Miaka minne ilikwisha bila Naibu Gavana wa Kaunti ya West Pokot kuwa katika Jamhuri ya Kenya. Alikuwa ni daktari Marekani.

Sijui ni kwa nini Sen. Kathuri analeta Mswada huu hapa. Mtu yeyote ambaye anawania kiti chochote katika Jamhuri ya Kenya anapaswa ajue majukumu ya kiti kile, ajue uwezo wa kiti kile, ajue anaweza kufanya vipi na kile kiti.

Kwa manaibu wa magavana kuja hapa, kwa sababu nimesikia wakiwa na vikao wakijaribu kuzungumzia Mswada huu, nimesikia Seneta wa Meru, Sen. Kathuri akisema ya kwamba aliwasikiliza na kuna mambo ambayo waliyataja. Walisema kuwa hawapewi majukumu, wanakaa katika ofisi, hawana bajeti yoyote, kazi yao ni kukaa katika ofisi, na gari zao hazina mafuta ilhali inasemekana vizuri sana.

Nafasi hii ya naibu wa gavana ni ya kusaidia kuimarisha kazi ya gavana kuhakikisha kuwa tawi la utenda kazi la kaunti linafanyika kwa ufanisi na vyema. Ikiwa hajapewa kazi yoyote na gavana, anataka mafuta ya nini? Kazi yake ni kukaa ofisini na kungoja. Seneti ikikubali sheria hii kupita, italeta kuingiliwa kwa mamlaka ya gavana, kwani aliyepewa majukumu ya kuulizwa maswali katika Seneti au Bunge la Kaunti ni gavana.

Majukumu yanayopendekezwa hapa yatatengeneza serikali mbili zitakazoleta migogoro katika kaunti. Hii itapelekea kudorora kwa utendaji kazi. Waswaili wanasema: “Fahali wawili wapiganapo, nyasi ndizo huumia.” Kuwa na fahali wawili katika gatuzi italeta vurugu na mvutano.

Point of order!

What is your point of order, Sen. Cherarkey?

Sen. Kinyua, please take your seat. (Sen. Kinyua sat at his place)

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No.101(6), which states as follows-

“A Senator shall refer to another Senator by the title “Senator--- (name of the Senator)”. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, did you hear the distinguished Senator for Laikipia referring to me as Cherarkey? Could he abide by the Standing Order? You know this is a ranking Member. In fact, he should be thrown out because he is a ranking Member.

Sen. Cherarkey, you have made your point.

Asante, Bw. Spika wa Muda. Ikiwa nimekosea bila kutaja Seneta, ninamwita Seneta mara nne ili kulipiza ile nimekosa kutaja. Amekuwa akikoroga watu, na sasa pengine anajishuku kama ni Seneta. Sen. Cherarkey, wewe ni Seneta.

Hoja ya nidhamu!

Bw. Spika wa Muda, nikimalizia, ningependa kusema kwamba Laikipia---

Sen. Kinyua, the unfortunate thing is that you were given the leeway by the Chair, who noted that you were in order to make reference to your colleague by name and title, but you have now gone overboard. I do not want to permit interruption to your contribution. However, you also need to comply with the Standing Orders by speaking to the Chair and not your colleague Senator.

Asante, Bw. Spika wa Muda. Nilitaka kusema kwamba katika Kaunti ya Laikipia, Naibu Gavana na Gavana hawaonani, na imekuwa vigumu wao kufanya kazi pamoja. Tunataka kutengeneza sheria hapa kusema kuwa lazima wapendane, watembee Pamoja, na kufanya kazi pamoja.

Walipokutana, waliamua kuwa mmoja wao kuwa naibu wa mwingine. Sisi, watu wa Laikipia, tuliambiwa na wao. Kwa hivyo, hatufai kutengeneza sheria hapa za kuwahimiza kufanya kazi pamoja. Walipokuwa wakifanya kampeni, walikuwa wanavaa suti, shati na tai zinazofanana, na walikuwa wanatembea kwa miondoko. Wakati wa talaka ukifika, hatufai kutumia Seneti kuhalalisha mambo wanayopaswa kufanya.

Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa hayo mengi, napinga Mswada huu kwa sababu mapendekezo yaliyoko hapa yanakinzana na kaunti ambazo magavana na manaibu wao wanafanya kazi pamoja jinsi inavyostahili. Kwa hivyo, hatufai kutengeneza sheria za kutaka watu wawe na mapenzi.

Nashukuru Bw. Spika wa Muda.

Thank you, Sen. Kinyua. Next is Sen. M. Kajwang’.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I also rise to contribute to the proposed amendments to the County Governments Act. The County Governments Act needs thorough audit and interrogation. Ten years after devolution, this Senate ought to do this nation a favour by looking at the entire Act holistically instead of piecemeal amendments.

I have noted that today we are discussing amendments to a section of the Act that relates to deputy governors but there is also another legislative proposal in the Order Paper to make further amendments to the County Governments Act. How I wish sometimes we tied some of these issues up so that we have a comprehensive review and amendments to the County Governments Act.

The role of a deputy governor is clearly spelt out in the Constitution. We have Article 179(4) which I like quoting whenever governors appear before my committee.

Thank you, Sen. M Kajwang’. We will now hear from Sen. Mumma.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to contribute to this. I am the Vice Chairperson of the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations and we looked at this Bill.

When the Mover moved the Bill today for Second Reading, he may have given the impression that the Committee agreed with it as it is. It is nearly one year since we submitted our Report. I will actually share that Report in the House Business Committee Forum, so that Members who have not contributed to this debate can also see what the Committee looked at and they will also see the recommendations of the Committee.

There are a number of things. Clearly, we have a huge problem between many governors and many deputy governors. That is the reason why deputy governors came together to try and see whether they can find a way and get assigned functions through

Sen. Mumma, when the House resumes tomorrow, you will have 11 minutes to conclude on your contribution to this particular Bill.