Wednesday, 1st March, 2017

May the Quorum Bell be rung

We may now commence proceedings.

Hon. Members, take your seat.

2 of 2015), which was sponsored by Hon. Peter Kaluma, MP, sought to amend the Constitution of Kenya to prohibit courts from interfering with matters which are active before Parliament, county assemblies and/or their committees. The two Bills were passed by the National Assembly on 1st October 2015 and 27th April 2016 respectively.

Article 256(1) of the Constitution provides that – “A Bill to amend the Constitution-

I appoint the Leader of the Majority Party to table the Estimates of the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) .

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the House:

Estimates of Recurrent and Development Expenditure of The Parliamentary Service Commission for the year ending 30th June 2018 and projections for 2018/2019/2020.

Very well, Chairperson, Committee on Administration and National Security, Hon. Kamama.

I read it yesterday. I do not have it now.

You are popular. Chair of the Departmental Committee on Education, Research and Technology.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:

Reports of the Departmental Committee on Education, Research and Technology on its consideration of:

Hon. Were

Hon speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the House: Report of the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare on its consideration of the Betting, Lotteries and Gaming (Amendment) Bill, 2016.

Hon. Otuoma.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to give notices of the following Motions:

Next Order!

Member for Kiambaa.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I wish to make a Statement regarding an emerging trend within the political scene in the country.

Political activities in the country are usually very emotive and have in several instances escalated to violence leading to loss of life and property. It is, therefore, very disturbing to note that some political party players are using former and retired military officers in their political activities. Specifically, these political entities have been holding strategy meetings involving the military personnel for reasons best known to them. Some of these meetings have been held in secret raising concerns over their agenda and end intentions.

Hon. Speaker, it beats logic as to why a political entity preparing for elections will be holding meetings with trained military officers as though politics and general electioneering were a military process. This creates fear and if not dealt with may be calamitous to peaceful coexistence in the country. While not wishing to raise this matter as an urgent matter of national importance, I would request that the relevant authority as well as the House Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security and Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations look into these activities. This will go a long way in averting despondency and lawlessness that is likely to emerge.

Thank you.

Very well. Next Order! But before we move to the next Motion, allow me to recognise the presence in the Speaker’s and Public Galleries students and pupils from the following institutions: In the Speaker’s Gallery, students from Butere Girls High School, Butere Constituency, Kakamega County. In the Public Gallery, Githambia Primary School, Gatanga Constituency, Murang’a County and Kamunyaka Kiumu Primary School, Gatanga Constituency, Murang’a County. They are all welcome to observe the proceedings in the House.

Hon. Members, I hope everybody is in possession of a Supplementary Order Paper which I request the Serjeant-at-Arms officers to distribute. Hon. Langat.

Hon. Speaker, on behalf of my Committee, I wish to move the following Procedural Motion:

THAT, notwithstanding the provisions of the Standing Order No.230 (4) , this House resolves to extend the period prescribed for consideration of the Petition for Removal from office of Mr. Edward Ouko as Auditor-General of the Republic of Kenya by the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade by a period of 21 days from 2nd March 2017. This House may appreciate the fact that this is a very weighty matter and the first case in the Constitution. We have been sitting for the last three days and the kind of interest from the public, civil society groups and the membership of this House has been very high. With the kind of information we are receiving, we require more time so that we do a fair job.

This House should appreciate that seven days to consider a Petition for removal of a constitutional office holder is not enough. Going forward, we need to formally amend our Standing Orders to a month. A case of removing somebody from an office is so serious that it cannot be considered within a week and for the House to appreciate issues which come up. I request the House to give my Committee more time, so that we can give a worthy verdict.

With those few remarks, I move and request the Leader of the Majority Party to second.

Hon. Speaker, I second.

Put the Question.

Hon. Members, this is a Procedural Motion and I want to alert the Chair of the Committee that, indeed, this is not the first Petition for removal from office. This House will recall that it considered a similar Petition for removal from office of the Chairperson of the National Gender and Equality Commission (NGEC) and the members of the Ethics and Anti- Corruption Commission (EACC) . As the Member has explained, we have always as a House brought these kinds of Procedural Motions.

Hon. Langat, the House is at liberty to extend the time. What you have said is correct. The Standing Orders only provide for 14 days. That period is obviously not enough depending on the subject matter.

Let us move on to the next Order.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, acknowledging that the East African Legislative Assembly (EALA) is established under Article 9 of the Treaty for the Establishment of the East African Community as one of the key organs and institutions of the Community responsible for the Community’s legislative matters; recognising that Article 50 of the Treaty provides for the election of Members of EALA by respective partner States’ Legislatures in accordance with their parliamentary procedures for a term of five years; aware that the five-year term of the current 3rd East African Legislative Assembly is due to expire on June 04, 2017; further aware that the East African Legislative Assembly Elections Act, 2011 contemplates conclusion of the election of Members of a new Assembly to be within ninety (90) days before the expiry of the term of the subsisting Assembly; noting that the current Election Rules were adopted by the National Assembly in April, 2012 and, therefore, do not take cognisance of the bicameral nature of the Kenyan Parliament; cognisant of the need to urgently conclude the election process within the statutory timelines; now, therefore, in accordance with the provisions of Rule 9 of the Houses of Parliament (Joint Sittings) Rules, the House resolves to establish a Joint Select Committee consisting of seven (7) Members from each of the Houses of Parliament and that-

sends them to the Senate and in between results can disappear and names and figures can change. So, we want to show a good example that proper elections can be done by the Legislature. There is the element of dispute resolution. In a joint approach, they can resolve that because the fact is that there is no room for varied interpretation on application of the rules of procedure. So, the two Speakers will be very close to each other in the joint sitting and in case objections are raised by Members, they can consult and give an answer.

The election is expected to take into account the relative majority of the coalitions in Parliament and representation of youth, women and persons living with disabilities. Let me make it very clear because I am a serious stakeholder in this process as the Leader of the Majority Party, that this procedure will apply to political parties represented in Parliament and not coalitions. Jubilee Party, Orange Democratic Movement (ODM), Forum for Restoration of Democracy FORD (K) and the Wiper Democratic Movement will know their slots. Independents have no slots because they are not political parties. As we go out, we know what we are dealing with. The representation is based on parliamentary practice more so in coalitions. It must take into account the representation of youth, women and persons living with disabilities.

In the last Parliament, when this election was taking place, I was just hanging. I had no party because the ODM, by then, had chased me. So, those of us who were in the United Republican Party (URP) made formations with Hon. Musalia Mudavadi who had also left ODM. Some of us formed coalitions, but what counts is the vote not the party leaders out there. The nine members are elected and their voters are the 349 Members of this House. So, if you are a leader out there, you cannot influence the election. The election and lobbying take place here. So, if you are waiting, and I am talking to the prospective candidates, to be endorsed by people from outside this House, you are in for a rude shock. You have to lobby for each and every vote of the 349 Members here. If the Member for Othaya does not give you her vote and you were only looking for one vote, then you will fail. Listen to me. If you are a sitting Member of Parliament, you cannot apply for this job because your term has not ended. You can only apply if you resign before the deadline. So, if you are sitting here and waiting to apply to be a Member of the East African Legislative Assembly (EALA), then you have a few days to resign.

Finally, this matter is timebound and that is why we brought the Motion. We are already behind schedule. Previously, Kenya has delayed the sittings of EALA because of late elections of its Members. We are the only country that filed a case in the East African Court of Justice to challenge our own Members who were elected. It happened during the NARC Government. So, the time for processing is timebound and is not a luxury we can enjoy. This time we want the process to be open, participatory and lawful.

I have spoken to my counterpart in the Senate to fast-track the process and I request the Leader of Minority Party, my colleague, Hon. Nyenze, and the Chief Whip, to help me so that we can approve these seven names. If you look at the seven names, they represent gender and the face of Kenya. We have Hon. Katoo and great women like Hon. Florence Mutua and Hon. Wanjiku Muhia. We have a pastoralist, Daniel Maanzo and great minds like Hon. Wamunyinyi who is a ranking Member. This Motion is in order. Let us ask Members to approve it, so that this Committee can join the one from the Senate and get the 14 Members. Today should be the last day that we will have an equal number. In terms of numbers, we are not equal to the Senate. If there is a Committee of 14, they will have three or four Members and we will have 10. That is how we should go. The only time we broke the law was for the sake of Kenya when we formed the Joint Committee of the Senate and the National Assembly on the Elections Law led by Hon. Kiraitu Murungi and Hon. James Orengo. Our numbers are a resource. When you distribute

resources, you must distribute them equally. We cannot convince our Members, but for now, we will agree.

I ask the Member for Kiminini, Hon. Chris Wamalwa and the Deputy Whip of the Minority Party to second because he is a Member of the House Business Committee (HBC).

Hon. Wamalwa.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to second this Motion. I request Hon. Members that we move with speed because this is a very critical Motion and unfortunately, we are behind schedule. It is stipulated that this was supposed to have been done 90 days before expiry. The expiry date being June, when you work backwards, the work should have been done by March.

I hope the great Members here are going to do great work. When you look at the selection of the Members of this Committee, it is a proper mix. Political parties are represented. Jubilee, ODM, Wiper Democratic Movement and FORD (K) are represented. I also want to mention that in terms of proportionate representation, when you do the ratio between the National Assembly and the Senate, it comes to 5:1. So, it would have been nice to have given the Senate one or two slots, but unfortunately the way the Standing Orders are, if it is a Joint Committee, representation is supposed to be equal.

As they move on, this is going to be the electoral college. But the challenge is that initially when this was done, we had a unicameral House, with Parliament as the National Assembly. Now we have the Senate. As we move on, this is the critical challenge the Committee would look into whether it should have just been only the National Assembly as opposed to the Senate because Articles 95 and 96 are very clear that the Senate is responsible for matters to do with the counties. This is a national matter and it should have just been handled by the National Assembly. However, we want to move together as brothers and sisters with speed.

My only worry as we move on, and I am sure this committee will come up with a solution, is how the two Speakers will preside over a joint sitting. The only joint sitting we have been having is when His Excellency the President comes to address the State of the Nation where Members are not allowed to contribute. But in this case where we will go into voting, it is important to note the Standing Orders that will guide the joint sitting. We can see difficulties ahead, but I have no doubt this Committee is up to the task. I know it is going to come up with procedures and rules of engagement so that this can be done amicably. In the East African region, Kenya should not be viewed as a country that likes doing things at the last minute. Of course, we lead from the front. Even during the voter registration exercise, we saw Kenyans going to register the last minute. On an important matter like this one, we are also coming in at the last minute. We wish them well. We have no doubt they have what it takes.

I second.

Hon. Members, before I propose the Question, it is good to explain that the Communication from EALA about the need for the member country legislatures to elect their representatives also came late to our Parliament. The Clerk’s Department moved with the greatest of speed to ensure that we get this Motion on the Order Paper. More importantly, the provision for joint sittings of Parliament is to be found in Article 107 (1) . If you look at Article 124, it permits each House of Parliament to establish its own committees and also joint committees, but it does not guide on how joint committees will be done except in Article 113 where it talks about the mediation committee, which has equal membership. It, therefore, means that since that one is specified, any other joint committee, the two Houses, or whichever method

being used, can resolve on the question of proportionate representation to reflect the sizes of each House.

It is a legitimate matter, but for purposes of this, EALA is guided by the practice obtaining in the Republic of Rwanda where they also have two Houses. So, they assumed that Kenya should also go the same way. They do not know the specific provisions of our Constitution regarding the roles of each House. For the convenience of the country and of both Houses, there is no harm in us proceeding with this Motion in a manner that has been proposed. Hon. Members, this Motion is fairly lengthy. The Mover, that is, the Leader of the Majority Party and the Seconder, Hon. Chris Wamalwa, have explained. Allow me not to read the entire Motion.

Put the Question!

Hon. Members, we are now in the Committee of the whole House to consider the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill of 2016.

agreed to) Provisions relating to the Advocates Act (Cap.16)

We have two proposed amendments, namely, one from the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs and another one from Leader of the Majority Party. Hon. Members, if we carry that of the Chairman of the Committee, we will drop the one of the Leader of the Majority Party. We are starting with that from the Chairman of the Committee.

We have agreed.

Hon. Members, if you have agreed, then we need to hear the consensus. You have to drop your amendment, Hon. Chepkong’a. You are proposing a deletion. When your proposal is a deletion, we have to start with it.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The consensus position was to be moved by the Leader of the Majority Party, but since you are speaking from the Chair on authority, I have no choice but to withdraw. I hereby withdraw the proposed deletion.

Now that the Chairman of the Committee has dropped his deletion, we can move to the proposed amendment by the Leader of the Majority Party.

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule –

Hon. Wamalwa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. This is an important amendment because Kenyans have been conned several times. The proposed amendment will streamline and bring order in the practice. If there is any misbehaviour by the advocates, the LSK can withdraw their services. It is important to have control measures. Recently in the medical field, the Cabinet Secretary (CS) and the Principal Secretary (PS) failed to end the doctors’ strike and the association came up with measures to bring sanity. It is important to have this within professional bodies. We have had qualified advocates conning people in the villages when it comes to matters of transactions. Money is paid, but the lawyers disappear with it. The LSK will now help when people raise such complaints.

I support.

Hon. Members, remember we are in the Committee of the whole House. We already did the Second Reading and so, here you just agree or disagree with a few remarks. Let us have Hon. Chepkong’a.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, as much as I support the Leader of the Majority Party, we had a subsequent discussion with regard to this proposed amendment and we agreed that this will provide uniformity in terms of numbering and the things that will be used by the advocates. It will also bring ease of recognition. We support this amendment because it will be easy for clients who are looking for advocates to know those that are registered by the LSK.

(Provisions relating to the Advocates Act

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended by—

We have an amendment by the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on National Security and Administration.

He is not in the House.

Do we have the Vice- Chairman of the Committee? Hon. Members, let us be patient as the Leader of the Majority Party sorts out things.

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the proposed amendments to the Prisons Act, Cap.90, by deleting the proposed amendment to Section 9. The proposed amendment gives prison officers all the powers, protection and privileges of a police officer in the performance of any function assigned to them. This will be subject to abuse because it means that prison officers may act as police officers at all times. When the Government was dealing with the issue of Al Shabaab at the Coast and some parts of North Eastern, prison officers were given full powers of traffic and regular police officers so that they could deal with terrorism like other police officers, but they may abuse this. We want to maintain the status quo such that when we need prison officers to act as police officers or provide security during elections, they can do that and revert back to their normal duties.

Let us have Hon. Wafula Wamunyinyi.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I support this proposed amendment because if it were to happen the way it was proposed earlier, it is likely to cause confusion. Prison officers carrying out police duties continuously when they have their specific mandate for rehabilitation and preservation of convicts will cause unnecessary confusion. So, I support this amendment on that account.

Hon. Makali.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I also support this amendment because prison officers and police officers have different training. While they can do the work of the police under special circumstances, I do not think we should have a law which allows them just to act like police officers. Therefore, I support.

Provisions relating to the Income Tax (Cap. 470)

We have amendments by the Leader of the Majority Party, the Member for Kikuyu, Hon. Ichung’wah and Hon. Gaichuhie. Let us start with the Leader of the Majority Party.

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule-

The Leader of the Majority Party, you have given us the justification for your amendments for Section 15 (3) and the Third Schedule. Please, give us the First Schedule, New Paragraph 44A, where you mention the National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF) . This is because of the amendment by Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah.

Do you want me to read the whole of it?

We want the justification for the New Paragraph 44A where you talk about the income of the NHIF, so that we are able to see the difference between your reasoning and that of Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah.

I have done the one on the cooperative. You want me to go to the one on the income of the NHIF established under the National Hospital Insurance Fund Act, 1998 consisting of-

Let me propose the Question and then we hear the amendment from the Member for Kikuyu.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Yes, Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I was just wondering. From what the Leader of the Majority Party said, even though he says this amendment is from the National Treasury, it is not clear why they are amending the NHIF Act. He needs to make it clear so that we can know what we are supporting or not supporting.

Hon. Members, let us listen to Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah because he has an amendment on the same.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. If the Leader of the Majority Party and Hon. Wamunyinyi can be quiet for a minute, I will give the clarity that the Member is asking for on the NHIF. He says he did not hear the justification clearly from the Leader of the Majority Party. The Leader of the Majority Party was talking about spurring development especially of residential housing units. What had happened is that under the Income Tax Act, the National Social Security Fund (NSSF) as a social security Fund has been included in the Schedule. Therefore, the income that they derive from the investment activities is not taxed.

However, the income of the NHIF, which is equally an important health security Fund, derived from such investments is taxed. Therefore, we just want to align that to make sure that both NSSF and NHIF are on the same tax regime. It helps because the NHIF invests in housing.

For instance, in their headquarters at Upper Hill, they have not occupied the whole building. They have rented out space to tenants and they are taxed on that income. In this country, we have been speaking about giving global healthcare to Kenyans and now NHIF is even giving healthcare facilities to our elderly people that are benefiting from the cash transfer programme. We just want to encourage them to continue with these investments without necessarily taxing them. I hope it is clear to Hon. Makali.

Thank you, Hon. Ichung’wah. It is a bit clearer now. Hon. Nyikal.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I stand to support this amendment because the NHIF pays for healthcare for the people. All the money that accrues from that goes to pay for the sick people. We do not see why that should be subjected to tax. Therefore, I support.

Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah,we have, therefore, dropped your amendment because it has been taken care of by that of the Leader of the Majority Party. Let me ask Hon. Gaichuhie to move his amendment.

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the items relating to the Income Tax Act (Cap 470) by inserting the following new row in its proper alphabetical sequence— Second Schedule (Part V)

Insert the following new paragraph immediately after section 24B ― Capital expenditure on construction of liquefied petroleum gas storage facilities. 24C. (1) Where capital expenditure is incurred on the construction of liquefied petroleum gas storage facilities with a minimum capital investment of four billion shillings and a minimum storage capacity of a total value of fifteen thousand metric tonnes, there shall be deducted in computing the gains or profits of the person incurring that expenditure for the year of income in which the liquefied petroleum gas storage facilities were first used for storage of liquefied petroleum gas, a deduction referred to as an investment deduction.

Hon. Jakoyo and Hon. Ichung’wah, you would know where we are if you paid attention. We are on Hon. Gaichuhie’s amendment on the Income Tax Act. It is on page 247.

It is on page 247.

I think, Hon. Gaichuhie, we have heard your justification and so, I will propose the Question.

Hon. Duale.

I think what the Vice-Chair is trying to say is that, if you want to invest in LPG storage facility, you will get some waivers when you buy the material for that investment. But because KPC wants to build, there is a waiver on that. The intent is to make sure that when we have a local LPG facility in our country, the price will then go down as opposed to importing and keeping the ship in the high seas.

In this amendment, the Vice-Chair is saying that we encourage investors who want to invest in LPG, including KPC.

Hon. Jakoyo.

I thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I rise to support. I wish this could have been further devolved so that smaller people can also participate. You can get somebody in Migori Town with a warehouse. That way, transportation will be bulked across the country. But I understand. Jubilee thinks big. You know when you spend Kshs600 billion on SGR – and we think it is much more---

You think small?

We do not think small. We think micro. We like the people. We are social economists. But I support.

Thank you, Hon. Jakoyo. Hon. Wamunyinyi.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, it was not clear earlier and I had intended to withhold my support for this proposed amendment. But in view of the explanation, I wish to support the proposed amendment. I would like to stress this fact: Let the market be broadened; but not for a few investors. Let the other Kenyans also benefit from this.

Hon. Members, I think we have heard from both sides. Hon. Gichigi will be the last one on this.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I also rise to support. My concern is that every time we reduce taxation to traders, it does not trickle down to the consumers. We need to come up with a system of monitoring. If we give tax rebates and the traders do not cascade that to the consumers, we must raise it again.

Thank you.

Hon. Members, because of that amendment to the Income Tax Act, then we have consequential amendments to the Miscellaneous Fees and Levies Act, 2016 by the Leader of the Majority Party and Value Added Tax Act, 2013 by Hon. Gaichuhie. Provisions relating to the Miscellaneous Fees and Levies Act, 2016

The Leader of the Majority Party has an amendment at the bottom of page 239.

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule—

Hon. Wafula Wamunyinyi, do you want to speak to this.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. On some of these amendments which are brought to do with investors, the Leader of the Majority Party should explain how this is going to benefit other Kenyans. Is it just for people building vehicles? How are the ordinary Kenyans going to benefit from this amendment?

The Leader of the Majority Party, just expound on that, although I thought I heard you say it.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the Member for Kanduyi has a very good question. It is more expensive when we import a German-made car from Germany than when we have the plant here and the car is assembled here in Kenya. Number one, it will create employment to our people. Secondly, the price will come down. So, this is only where the public interest comes in. If an investor wants to relocate and create--- This is basically the most important aspect. Before you even go to the consumers, it is to create employment for Kenyans.

If you go to the Thika Plant, you will find thousands of Kenyans who are working there. So, employment is very key. These amendments are from the National Treasury and I am moving them on behalf of the Ministry.

Hon. Wamunyinyi. I think it is now clear.

as amended agreed to)

Provisions relating to the Value Added Tax Act, 2013

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule by inserting the following new item in its proper alphabetical sequence- The Value Added Tax Act,2013 (No of 2013) First Schedule (Part I-Goods) Insert the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph 30 ― 30A. Taxable supplies, procured locally or imported for the construction of liquefied petroleum gas storage facilities with a minimum capital investment of four billion shillings and a minimum storage capacity of fifteen thousand metric tonnes as approved by Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury upon recommendation by the Cabinet Secretary responsible for liquefied petroleum gas.

First Schedule (Part II- Services) Insert the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph 27 ―

Hon. Members we have two amendments. One is from the Member for Subukia and the other by the Member for Gem. I will start with that of the Member for Subukia, Hon. Gaichuhie. Provisions relating to the Insurance Act (Cap.487)

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the items relating to the Insurance Act (Cap 470) by inserting the following new rows in their proper alphabetical sequence-

The first justification is to seek to provide the standards for insurance underwriters and enhance punishment for defaulters. The industry has not been complying with the policies because the punishment has been too lenient. When an insurance company is fined, say, Kshs10.000 only, they can always not follow regulations and that is why we have decided that we need to enhance the fine for them to comply. That is why we are deleting the Kshs10,000 and substituting it with Kshs5 million.

Let us have Hon. Makali.

Thank you. I support this amendment. What the Vice-Chairman is saying makes a lot of sense and, more so, with regard to the penalties where he proposes that we increase the fine from Kshs10,000 to Kshs5 million. This is going to be good for the economy. We will make sure that people comply with the law. So, I support.

Let us have the amendments by Hon. Jakoyo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Insurance Act (Cap.487) by inserting the following new item immediately after the proposed amendments to section 43 (2) (c) — New Insert the following new section immediately after section 71— Choice of insurer for loans. 71A. (1) A bank shall—

Let us have Hon. Gichigi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support that amendment. People who borrow from banks are made to go through a lot of documents, many of which are in small print. With the banks now venturing into insurance and insurance agencies, it is only safe that this small person called the borrower be secured from that monster called the big bank.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, I do not see your intervention. Go ahead now.

I want to go on record, for the first time, as having disagreed with the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for the National Treasury. He wrote to me about this amendment. I did soul-searching last night between the people of Garissa Township and the National Treasury. But because the elections are around the corner, I decided to go with the people. This amendment is very clear because it is about the customers. When you go to the bank, you are given a list of law firms to chose from, even the serious lawyer Hon. Millie is here. We have a problem in this country whereby the banking and insurance businesses are inter-mingling. You are given a loan facility and then you are dictated to go to a specific insurance company because the bank is a shareholder there. So, they want to reap from you in the whole process. Hon. Jakoyo, of late, has been bringing pro-people Bills and amendments - starting from the Betting, Lotteries and Gaming (Amendment) Bill and this one. We ask the people of Gem to look into him as they look into Hon. Gumbo’s pursuit for a gubernatorial seat.

I support and can provide evidence of the letter from the National Treasury.

(Provisions relating to the Clinical Officers, Training, Registration and Licensing Act No.9 of 1988 agreed to)

We have a proposed amendment from Hon. Gaichuhie and then that of Hon. Jakoyo. If Hon. Gaichuhie’s amendment

is carried, that of Hon. Jakoyo will be dropped. Hon. Gaichuhie is asking for a deletion and so, if it is deleted, then Hon. Jakoyo cannot continue with his amendment. Hon. Gaichuhie. Provisions relating to the Kenya Information and Communications Act, 1998 (No.2 of 1998)

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule by deleting the items relating to the Kenya Information and Communications Act, 1998

. That is because there are ways of dealing with transparency in the provision of premium rate services. The best of which would be promulgation of specific regulations in relation to Content Service Providers

(CSPs)

who are also licensed providers of premium rate services in Kenya, and their engagement with mobile network operators. For the CSPs, somebody should decide their premium rates and that is why it should be deleted and we put regulations in place.

Hon. Gaichuhie, are you through?

Yes, I am through.

You have moved?

Yes.

You have given your justification?

Yes, I have given my justification and said it is because there are other ways of dealing with transparency in the provision of premium rate services. The best of which would be promulgation of specific regulations in relation to CSPs.

On a point of order.

Hon. Members, I think Hon. Gaichuhie has finished his justification. You are confusing him because he is moving. Then I will propose the Question and you debate. What is out of order, Leader of the Majority Party?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we want to know whether Hon. Gaichuhie is deleting the provision in the Bill or dealing with the amendment by Hon. Jakoyo. If he is deleting, I oppose.

Then, you should wait until time for debate has commenced. He is on the Bill.

The Leader of the Majority Party, are you ready?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I oppose because this amendment is very simple. It says: “A telecommunication operator shall, before levying or allowing to be levied any specific charge relating to a premium rate service provided to a subscriber, disclose the fact, amount and frequency of the charge to the subscriber.”

Everyday, I am subscribed to some things which I am not aware of. For example, the breaking news 411, you find yourself subscribed to it and many other things. The telecommunication operator must notify you because you are losing money. You are being charged for something you do not know. On this one, I oppose.

Hon. Jakoyo and then Hon. Wafula Wamunyinyi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I rise to oppose very strongly. You are aware of what I went through to occasion the Consumer Protection Act which we use and the Government also accepted to implement Article 46 of the Constitution. Sometimes, this House does things we do not even understand. Nelson, I beg you to, please, withdraw.

We are saying for example, those tunes which phone companies put in your phone and charge you, they may cost two cents or one shilling, but it is your money. All we are saying is, please, tell us how much it is going to cost us. How can that be bad? I really oppose because that would mean this House is anti-Kenyans. We cannot have a House that is only pro- telecommunication companies or banks. We cannot do that Mheshimiwa. I beg you! Your people are watching you. You must withdraw that amendment.

We will have Hon. Wafula Wamunyinyi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I also rise to oppose this proposed amendment. First, it amounts to a substantive amendment that will affect all Kenyans through a miscellaneous amendments Bill. This should have been brought as a substantive amendment through some Bill. Let me explain. The Leader of the Majority seems to be excited, I do not know why. I oppose this amendment on that particular ground that the citizens will lose. You cannot say it is the opposite, Jakoyo. It is not. It affects Kenyans and you have told this Member very well. Withdraw this amendment.

Let us have the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. First and foremost, this was a very good proposal. That is why it came through the miscellaneous amendment Bill.

Secondly, Hon. Gaichuhie has not told us. Is it the proposal of the Communications Authority of Kenya (CAK) to have it deleted or is it the proposal of his Committee? If it is the proposal of his Committee, Members have no competence. He should take it from me. In fact, he should withdraw his amendment after I finish speaking. I am a former regulator. These are the sort of things we call hidden costs. You make a call and it is never disclosed. Telecommunication operators like Safaricom are making billions of shillings. This year, Safaricom will declare a profit of Kshs52 billion: Kshs52 billion comes from those hidden charges. When you call, you do not know how much you have spent. We want them to make a full disclosure so that when I make calls, I am informed.

I oppose the deletion of those provisions.

I think you are clear now. Hon. Gaichuhie, have you been convinced to drop the amendment or should we put the Question?

We will now move on to the amendment by Hon. Jakoyo Midiwo.

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Kenya Information and Communications Act, 1998 by inserting the following new item immediately before the proposed amendments to section 27A— New

Insert the following new section immediately after section 25— Licensee may operate other businesses. 25A. (1) In addition to operating a telecommunication system or providing a telecommunication service as may specified in the licence granted under section 25, a person may engage in any other business provided that such person shall—

Give us just a bit of justification.

I am coming to that. It is a big amendment. This amendment is with regard to the argument out there between the Competition Authority, phone companies and the Executive.

Hon. Member for Kiharu, you are confusing me.

This amendment is to tell those telecommunications companies, be it Orange, Airtel or Safaricom, which is the biggest culprit, if they are interested in doing any other business other than telephony, they must incorporate a local company which engages in that work even though they may have a mother company. The appalling case is the one of Safaricom. It is an unfair player and that has been said by the Competition Authority. It is largely owned by

foreigners. Our people only own 30 per cent. This is not a very small thing. This House has a responsibility. I have heard arguments out there, but the biggest responsibility is that Safaricom, as it were, cannot employ further than it does because it is a very good innovative company. Technology does not need many employees but, if we incorporate a 100 per cent fully owned Kenyan company, imagine how many Kenyans will be employed and how much tax we will get from that company.

The other thing which I am stopping them from doing is that Safaricom is even now getting into the taxi business with a telephony licence. Safaricom has this product where you make deposits and check in. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, if you could just indulge me for one more minute, in the last eight months of last year, our economy lost 135,000 jobs in the formal sector. But half of them – and the country may wish to know - were in the banking sector. We cannot have a company owned by foreigners collapsing our Equity Bank and our Co- operative Bank. We cannot do the same and watch our Kenya Commercial Bank go down. It is the duty of this House under Article 95 to do the right thing. I have heard arguments and we need to argue this amendment because it is substantive. Hon. Ichung’wah will have his time, but this is a fact that this country is living with. We have lost 135,000 jobs. Parliament has a duty because we have to consider how many people in the formal sector who have lost their jobs.

(Question of the amendment proposed)

Hon. Members, I will start with the Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I have listened very carefully to my colleague, the Deputy Leader of the Minority Party. I have a lot of respect for him. He has convinced us but, the amendment before us is very substantive. It is very heavy. We are the same Members of Parliament who could not allow the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill carry substantive amendments. Those amendments must be subjected to the stakeholders - CAK, Safaricom, Airtel and the Cabinet Secretary for Information and Communication Technology. They must all be heard. I plead with Hon. Jakoyo that the issues he has raised are very clear and substantive. I urge my colleagues to ask Hon. Jakoyo to withdraw that amendment.

On my table is the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, 2017 which has just come from the Office of the Attorney-General (A-G) . I want to confirm that I will put his amendment there so that all stakeholders can be called to argue their case. We will be accused as a House. Someone will go to court. We will be accused of having brought in a substantive matter to a Bill regarding minor changes. I want to beg Hon. Jakoyo. I have just campaigned for him to the people of Gem. Please, Hon. Jakoyo, I am sure you will pray because you are a man of God. Please, withdraw. We can even ask the Departmental Committee on Energy, Communication and Information to publish an Amendment Bill or even incorporate it in the Statute Law Bill, but let us give the stakeholders a chance. Let us hear Safaricom, the Cabinet Secretary and other stakeholders.

Your point has been heard. Let us have Hon. Ichung’wah.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I want to join the Leader of the Majority Party in pleading with Hon. Jakoyo. I have heard the Leader of the Majority Party even entertaining this amendment in the Miscellaneous Statute Law for 2017. I encourage Jakoyo to propose it as a substantive Amendment Bill by itself.

The second thing is the contradiction in the amendment. We are just talking about Safaricom and Mpesa, while forgetting that even Equity now has Equitel in the same service of money transfer.

Hon. Jakoyo, this is something that needs a lot of deliberation and we need to listen to all the stakeholders. Hon. Jakoyo, we are talking about loss of jobs in the banking sector. We are also not looking at the loss of jobs that will be occasioned by the many agents who operate Mpesa and all the other agencies.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, lastly - and I appreciate what Hon. Jakoyo has said about Vodafone and local ownership - we forget that Vodafone owns a platform on which Mpesa is riding. Therefore, if we were to delink the two companies, basically, we will be looking at the collapse of Mpesa as a local innovation. Therefore, I plead with Hon. Jakoyo to withdraw this amendment and look at it more substantively. Let him allow Members of the House to look at it more substantively, besides the other stakeholders.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Hon. Members, you know that there is a direction that can come from the Chair. That is why we are seated here. Hon. Jakoyo, you have heard, especially from the Leader of the Majority Party, and you are a seasoned Member of this House, in fact, a senior ranking Member. Hon. Members, I know even as I look at them on the Order Paper, I can tell you that these are substantive amendments. I will give other Members a chance. It does not stop me from what I am saying because directions can also be given from here. We can also not surprise the industry with a substantive amendment that the players have not been asked to give their opinion.

Hon. Jakoyo, even as I give a chance to another two Members, I appeal to you to consider how substantive your amendment is. You are the one who pushes for the rights of everybody to be heard. I am sure that you will also make the right decision. So, I will give two Members on this side. Hon. Gumbo.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Sorry. What was your point of order, Hon. Gichigi?

Thank you very much Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I rise under Standing Order No.133 (5) which reads:

“No amendment shall be permitted to be moved if the amendment deals with a different subject or proposes to unreasonably or unduly, expand the subject of the Bill, or is not appropriate or is not in logical sequence to the subject matter of the Bill.” So, the truth of the matter is that the issue brought out in this Bill is fundamentally different from the new proposal by my senior. I urge him to withdraw it.

Hon. Gichigi, you have just said what the Temporary Deputy Chairlady has said. When I pronounced myself from the Chair, I am aware of that Standing Order. Hon. Gumbo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, for giving me the opportunity. Allow me to, first of all, start by thanking Hon. Jakoyo Midiwo for proposing this amendment. Even as he does, maybe, he should talk to Hon. Duale. I am not sure whether Hon. Duale campaigning for him adds or denies him votes in Gem. But anyway, that is just my thought.

Chair of Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I would like to humbly request Hon. Midiwo, who is my very good friend, to withdraw this amendment and allow for public participation as required by the Constitution. Safaricom is operating under a licence that I signed and issued.

Trump.

Let me explain! You know we attended a prayer breakfast with Hon. Midiwo in which the President of the United States, Donald Trump, was present and he was happy with him.

Hon. Chair, you are just repeating what has been said. You are emphasizing what has already been said. Since we are in Committee of the whole House, we are going to put the Question.

A final one, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. What I am saying is that we should allow those parties to participate so that we can hear them and make a final decision with regard to this issue.

Thank you.

Hon. Members, we have heard from both sides.

Hon. Kang’ata, that is not the way to catch my eye at all. Hon. Jakoyo, are you convinced to withdraw the amendment or do we put the Question?

I am not withdrawing, but changing tact. You know that I have been here for a long time. I am convinced with the issue of looking at the larger picture. It is also good to correct the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs that when he issued that licence, there were no mobile phones. Telecommunication companies had those big ones. He did not license them to do taxi and banking business, and collapse Equity Bank and Co- operative Bank. Therefore, I accept the request by all and sundry that I withdraw the amendment. I am also going to instruct the legal team to do a substantive Bill. We must help the Government to collect taxes.

I withdraw the amendment.

(Provisions relating to the Community Service Orders Act, (Act No.10 of 1998)

agreed to)

Hon. Members, there are no amendments to this and, therefore, I put the Question.

(Provisions relating to the Industrial Property Act, (Act No.3 of 2001) agreed to) Provisions relating to the Children Act, 2001

Hon. Members, we have two amendments: one by the Leader of the Majority Party and the other by the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, Hon. Were. I will start with the one by the Leader of the Majority Party on the Children Act.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, after receiving Communication from the Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Services on this amendment, I drop my amendment and support the amendment by Hon. Gichigi.

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Hon. Gichigi, sorry to interrupt you. What is out of order, Hon. T.J?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg your indulgence and that of the Member for Kipipiri. Maybe, I am out of order myself, but I was just going to ask. I saw that there were amendments proposed by the Chairman of the Committee at some point.

He is actually representing the Chairman of Committee. He is presenting the amendments of the Labour Committee.

I was referring to the Chairman of Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

On the Children Act?

Yes.

No! There is no amendment to the Children Act by the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

Number (c) has nothing to do with this?

I am giving you direction. There is no amendment.

There is the Sexual Offences Act.

We are on the Children Act.

I beg your pardon.

I can see we have not reached the Sexual Offences Act. Hon. Gichigi, please, go ahead.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I was giving the rationale. When the proposed amendments were made and forwarded to the Attorney-General, that was a long time ago. Since then, the Ministry has constituted a task-force to look into the issues of the law on adoption and the structures of adoption in this country. The CS has since issued a moratorium. The task-force has gone out of the country and engaged various stakeholders. It has made a Report and forwarded it to the respective CS and she is in the process of implementing it. So, she needs to be given time to come up with other proposals. We are proposing that various proposals be dropped and the new moratorium proposal be passed.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I rise to support that amendment on the provision of the moratorium. The work of the Committee that is being talked about should actually be brought into effect very quickly. That is because the issue of adoption is really messy.

There are a lot of issues and there are so many adoption societies. They are doing all sorts of things. I support that it should be done as soon as possible.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to the Children Act, 2001 as amended agreed to)

Let us move on to the amendment to the Copyright Act, 2001 by Hon. Ichung’wah. Provisions relating to the Copyright Act, 2001

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule-

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The issues of copyright need a lot of clarity. Could the Mover of the amendment, please, explain the import of the amendment for our better understanding?

He just did!

We have done a lot of amendments on the copyright law which is just taking too much from---

Hon. Ichung’wah, you have explained it but, please, do it again for the sake of Hon. Kaluma.

For Hon. Kaluma, I know a lot of his time was taken by the amendments to the Children Act. The Leader of the Majority Party was also away.

The issue here is deleting amendments proposed to Section 38 and substituting the words, “and performance for private purposes shall include digital content of artistic works”. I have said many of our artists have their artistic work being downloaded and used especially as ringtones on phones. Because the Act did not recognise digital content, therefore, they are forced to have their

money channelled through entities that they have not approved themselves. Those are people who are just collecting money on their behalf and not channelling the same money to the artists. A case in point is our vernacular gospel musicians who have suffered because people are collecting royalties on their behalf, but they do not remit that money to them.

Hon. Kaluma, I actually have the court ruling that has occasioned, I believe, the amendment that has been brought by Hon. Ichung’wah. What he has said is true, that the section was declared unconstitutional in the ruling of the judge. I hope Hon. Kaluma is now comfortable.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I am shocked that Hon. Ichung’wah knows the Copyright Law because that is an area that I am passionate about. I support this amendment. I am surprised that he, at times, knows some good things.

as amended agreed to)

Hon. Kaluma and Hon. Kajwang’, can I, please, have your attention?

Hon. Members, the following proposed amendments to the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, 2016 were withdrawn by the Leader of the Majority Party as communicated by the Speaker on Thursday, 9th February 2017. They were in respect of the following Acts:

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Hon. A.B. Duale, what is your point of order?

I had an amendment.

Is it on the Retirement Benefits Authority Act, or on the Judicial Service Act?

(Off-record) .

We are not yet there. Provisions relating to the National Police Service Act, 2011

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the proposed amendments to the National Police Service Act No. 11A of 2011─

Paragraph (e) seeks to delete the proposed amendment to Section 76(3). The amendment seeks to remove the restriction on voluntary retirement from only those officers below the rank of sergeant. Therefore, the amendment proposes that any officer irrespective of rank may voluntarily retire from Service upon completion of 12 or 20 years of service. If the amendment is adopted, the Police Service may run the risk of losing its valuable skill of well trained and experienced officers. Therefore, the provision on voluntary retirement should be retained as it is currently in the Act.

Chair, we have got your gist. Your justification is on why you are deleting, is it not?

Therefore, do I just give the gist? That is what I will do. Lastly in Paragraph (f) , the rationale is that the amendment seems to be in conflict with Section 10 of the National Police Service Commission Act which gives the Commission power to implement and oversee the training curriculum within the Service. This is basically to give powers to the National Police Service Commission to undertake matters related to training, recruitment and such other matters. So, it is just to empower the Commission and retain what is there.

Thank you, Committee Chair.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Hon. Chepkong’a, are you on a point of order?

While I support what he has just proposed, I am concerned with the facilities in this House. They are neither convenient for the presenter nor for the hearers. The sort of microphone that Hon. Kamama has been given is close to his mouth.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, can you, therefore, direct the Clerk or whoever is responsible for this broadcast to give him an appropriate microphone so that he is not speaking too close to it. It is like booming on your ears.

Hon. Chepkong’a, the way you use the microphone is up to the individual. You can decide to move too close to the microphone or stay far from it. You handle the microphone. It does not handle you.

Provisions relating to the Kenya Citizenship and Immigration Act (Act No. 12 of 2011)

Again, Hon. Kamama, you have an amendment. I see the Chair of Justice and Legal Affairs Committee has come to teach you how to use a microphone.

You know as a former administrator, I am used to microphones than the advocate or the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) who normally addresses many board meetings. I am used to barazas and the rest. I hope this is clear.

It is fine. I can hear you well.

THAT the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the proposed amendments to the Kenya Citizenship and Immigration Act No. 12 of 2011− a) by deleting the proposed amendment to section 31 (1) ; b) by deleting the proposed amendment to section 33 (1) ; c) in the proposed amendments to section 37─

put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Kenya Citizenship and Immigration Act, 2011 as amended agreed to)

We have an amendment by the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

THAT the Schedule to the Bill be amended by—

Before I give Members opportunity to contribute, Hon. Chepkong’a and the Leader of the Majority Party please hear me please. Hon. Chepkong’a, the Act that you are amending has been effective since 1st January,

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The proposed amendment is only with respect to the DCJ who was appointed after the promulgation of the new Constitution. It is not intended to apply retrospectively to those DCJs before the promulgation of the new Constitution. I am not even aware whether we had the position of DCJ.

We did. We also had CJs. You know it is just a further amendment. You know this because you are a lawyer and I am not. You have to be clear so that you do not have litigation after that.

I, therefore, move a further amendment by inserting the words “at any time after the 27th August, 2010” immediately after the words “office of the Chief Justice” in the definition of the term “retired Chief Justice” and secondly, inserting the words “at any time

after the 27th August, 2010” immediately after the words “office of the Deputy Chief Justice” in the definition of the term “retired Deputy Chief Justice.”

I thank you.

Hon. Chairman, now you have made it clear that currently as we speak, it is the immediate former Deputy Chief Justice and those that will follow after that.

Let us have the Hon. Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I wanted to support this because my good friend, the former Chief Justice, Dr. Willy Mutunga, since he retired, has been living a very difficult life. Tonight I will call him and tell him that the Bill has been passed.

Secondly, just because there was war in the Judiciary when this Bill was being made, the Attorney-General (AG) left out the name of the former Deputy Chief Justice, Kalpana Rawal. She was a member of the Judicial Service Commission (JSC) and because of that tug of war, he decided to leave her name out. At least, we have now brought her name back and we have also secured the current Deputy Chief Justice Philomena Mwilu. So, I support this so that senior citizens can get---

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, much as you are my senior, when I sit on this Chair, I guide. Please, withdraw the inference that the Attorney-General deliberately left out anything. Indeed, you have mentioned the Attorney-General.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I cannot withdraw. When this Bill was brought to me by the AG, one question I asked was: “Why has he left before we deal with the current Deputy Chief Justice? Why has he left out the name of the former Deputy Chief Justice?” I represent people and I am the Leader of Government Business. When it comes to the House, whatever the AG brings here, he becomes subservient to the Leader of the Government Business. He becomes my junior.

You are imputing something on the AG. What you are saying imputes that he deliberately left out the name.

He left it out and I am saying it on the Floor. Why are we adding “the Deputy Chief Justice” here? That is his function. You cannot ask for retirement benefits for the Chief Justice and forget about the Deputy Chief Justice. So, the AG of the Republic of Kenya should not play monkey business.

Let us have the Hon. Chairman of Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

Thank you. I totally agree with the Hon. Leader of the Majority Party. This AG has been playing monkey business in many things, including in his own Act in which he has refused to provide for his removal. He drafts a Bill and brings it here and yet it does not have any clause providing for his removal. So, when the Law Society of Kenya petitioned for his removal, there was no provision for his removal, but there was one for the Cabinet Secretary. So, he does some things deliberately for his own purposes. He sits as a Member of the JSC. So, we are saying these things with full knowledge of the politics in the JSC.

Hon. Kaluma, you have the Floor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I oppose this provision the reason being that there is a Bill we have negotiated with the Judiciary through the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. It is called “The Judges Retirement Benefits Bill.”

We must understand that the CJ is a judge and the President of the Supreme Court. The Deputy CJ is also a judge. We must avoid a situation where --- I am being interrupted very badly by the leaders of our House--- We must avoid a situation where we are creating retirement benefits laws for various sections instead of dealing with departments at once.

Secondly, this is a very substantive provision. I would pray that matters of retirement benefits of the CJ and his Deputy go to that law and not this one.

On a point of order.

Hon. Kaluma, there is a point of order.

You know I have a lot of respect for Hon. Peter Kaluma. He has a very sharp mind.

(Inaudible)

It is true. I chair a committee in which he is a member and so I know and I can even attest to those facts even as a Commissioner for Oaths. It is true we have a proposed Bill, but what we are seeking to do is with regard to constitutional office holders. This is not for any other Judge. So, the CJ and his Deputy ---

(Inaudible)

I do not know why he is getting very annoyed.

Let us have Hon. T.J.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the problem is that in this Chamber we sometimes--- Can the Hon. Member for Garissa Town just allow me get my thoughts together?

We make contributions in this House thinking of individuals and when it is convenient to us. Looking at the original Bill, I realize that it is talking about the CJ. The further amendment is talking about the DCJ. My problem is neither the CJ nor his deputy. We have said in this House before that for a Bill such as this to come to the Floor of the House, it must be constitutional.

This Bill has not gone through the normal processes required by Article 144 of the Constitution. This is a miscellaneous amendment provision which has not gone through those processes. If you are going to allow the AG--- The Hon. Leader of the Majority Party is criticizing the AG for doing haphazard things and yet he is also allowing the same AG to sneak things through the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill.

My point is that this is a substantive issue; both the matter on the CJ and the DCJ should come as an amendment in which there is public participation. The matters should also be subjected to the Committee through the normal procedure.

On a point of order.

What is your point of order, Hon. Leader of the Majority Party?

Something must be out of order.

The CJ, as a constitutional office holder, should have been in the Bill that this House dealt with which was called, “Retirement Benefits

Act.” The CJ and the DCJ were left out. The provision in the Bill is for the CJ and it went to his own committee, the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. This Bill has been in the House for over six months. So, public participation was done. If

you were not there on the day when this Committee was dealing with the Bill, that is a different issue. The further amendment we are moving is for the DCJ.

This is from a process that went through public participation. We even got a memorandum---

The Report of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs has that. I think we should just continue.

Hon. T.J, the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs serves in a committee that you sit in. This amendment was brought to your Committee. When it comes to a committee, it is deemed to have gone through public participation, including consideration of a memorandum from the Judiciary itself to the Committee. So, argue on another point but not on public participation.

I sit in that Committee and I am one of those that are regularly there in spite of many things that I do. The Bill is talking about the CJ while the amendment is talking about his deputy. I have no problem with both of them. My problem is how we process things in this House and how consistent we are to the rule of law whenever we have things which look like Money Bills. The issue is in the Committee where I sit, and the Chairman is not known to be a liar. I am sure about this because he knows it and he will not dispute. I do not know a single time - and it will come in many of these amendments - that the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill was prosecuted as it is.

We have not had any representation from the Judiciary on this matter, taken witness statements or anything from the Salaries and Remuneration Commission (SRC) . The Budget and Appropriations Committee needs to look at it. These are the laws we face every day which we are bringing amendments concerning Money Bills. Maybe at the end of the day, we will get these amendments go through.

All I am saying is that we have some standardised procedure between the office of the Leader of the Majority Party and the Attorney-General so that amendments are in the main Bills and not through the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill. That is my point.

Yes, Hon. Kamama.

I support the amendment as moved by the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs because these two positions are constitutional. We are not saying that the offices of judges are unconstitutional, but in terms of mandate and in the absence of the Chief Justice (CJ) , the Deputy Chief Justice (DCJ) takes over to run the entire Judiciary.

I support the amendment and call upon Hon. Members to support it fully.

(Provisions relating to the Retirement Benefits

Act, No.8 of 2015 as amended agreed to)

(Provisions relating to the Companies Act,

Act No.17 of 2015 agreed to) Provisions relating to the Excise Duty Act, No.23 of 2015

The Leader of the Majority Party, do you have an amendment?

I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule –

That is straightforward the Leader of the Majority Party.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out,

put and agreed to)

Act, No.27 of 2015 agreed to)

Act, No.28 of 2015 agreed to)

Hon. Members we have now concluded the Committee of the whole House, where we have been considering the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill No. 45 of 2016. Mover, the Leader of the Majority Party, you have the Floor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.45 of 2016) and its approval thereof with amendments.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh)

: Hon. Members, we will start with the Mover. Let us have the Hon. Chairperson.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.45 of 2016) and has approved the same with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.

I request Hon. Nelson, the Vice-Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade to second the Motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of the whole House.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Hon. T.J, do you have a recommittal? Give him the microphone.

THAT, the Motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of the whole House be amended by inserting the words “subject to recommittal of provisions relating to the Advocates Act, Cap 16”. I ask Hon. Kaluma, the Member for Homa Bay Town, to second.

seconded.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Let us start with the Leader of the Majority Party on the recommittal.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Hon. T.J. was busy with the interrogation of the Auditor-General. I did not know what his interest was. He is not a Member of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade but as a Member of Parliament, he has the powers to attend. We have agreed with the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs that certain sections of the Advocates Act are detrimental. We have consulted and I support his recommittal.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Did you also say that you had consulted the Chair of the Committee and you are in agreement?

Yes.

It is good to follow the procedures of the House.

Hon. Members, we are back to the Committee of the whole House. We will be considering the Advocates Act, Cap 16. Provisions relating to the Advocates Act, Cap 16

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule by deleting the proposed Section 34B (1A) and (1B) . Thank you for allowing us to come back to the Committee of the whole House. I also thank my senior, the Member for Garissa Town and Leader of the Majority Party. He forgot why I was in the Ouko inquiry. I am always in the Ouko inquiry. I was in the other Ouko inquiry and now I am in this Ouko inquiry. Other than Sam Chepkong’a, I am probably one of the senior- most lawyers with the exception of the Member for Kisumu West.

I am glad that we have an understanding on this. The Leader of the Majority Party has proposed amendments on what is 2A and 34A. It is on the Order Paper. We have consulted and

agreed to delete the amendments that he is proposing in part (iii) which include 1A and 1B. We will retain his proposal in parts (i) and (ii). I will explain shortly.

The reason why I have been moving up and down is that I have been at pains to save young lawyers and particularly in-house lawyers. I am trying to save all the young people who are lawyers and are helping us in Bunge and those in corporations, authorities, the Office of the Attorney-General and wherever else they are. In the manner it was structured before, if a lawyer does not have the stamp of his head partner, that lawyer cannot even sign a small affidavit for his niece or aunt who is just passing by because nothing like that can be done without a stamp. That is one reason.

Secondly, for Sam Chepkong’a and I, who has taken a sabbatical to do something for the Ruaraka people, an honourable task which is very thankless, if I do not apply for exemption, then it is professional misconduct. Somebody will take me to the disciplinary committee and my name will be removed from the roll. Advocacy is a skill and a business.

I can choose today to close shop and then do something else. One day when the people of Ruaraka are tired of me, and I assume they will after they have elected me in the next Election, I will dust my books and go back to the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court. I should be able to exercise my practice. If I do not apply for exemption then it is professional misconduct and it is very dangerous. It is something which is beneficial to the old big firms at the expense of young lawyers who are starting their practice.

If I have the consent of the Leader of the Majority Party, who is proposing those amendments, we can then retain his proposals in parts (i) and (ii) but delete his proposal in part (iii) because it has already been processed. I would be most obliged.

(Question of the amendment proposed)

Hon. Members, that is what we are seeking to delete.

Mover.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move that, the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.45 of 2016) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.45 of 2016) and approved the same with amendments.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Mover of the Bill.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.

I request Hon. Nelson Gaichuhie, the Member for Subukia to second the Motion of agreement with the Report of the Committee of the whole House.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Hon. Gaichuhie, you have the microphone.

I second, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Hon. Members, we will put the Question at the right time for obvious reasons. We will now move on to the next Order.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we need to defer the Motion because this is a very important Report. I can see the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs wants to purport to reply. It is not fair. This is a very important Motion.

We need to discuss it tomorrow when Members will know the formation of a new Select Committee on Devolution. So, we can defer it to another day.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, because of the Leader of the Majority Party’s request, we will put that Order in the next Order Paper that is available for debate in the House.

Let us move on to the next Order.

Again, Hon. Members the

He is not prepared! The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Hon. Duale, the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs is always prepared.

Which one do I move? The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Move the Office of the County Attorney Bill (Senate Bill No.37 of 2014)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I cannot speak to an empty House. There is no quorum. So, it is unfair to speak to chairs and the Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Temporary Deputy Speaker should be moderating. There is no quorum and it is unfair.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : Hon. Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, I think you know the import of declaring no quorum in the House.

Yes, it is true that there is no quorum. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : It means that I need the Quorum Bell to be rung. Serjeant-At-Arms, please ring the Quorum Bell.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : When the Quorum Bell is ringing, I cannot take any point of order until we get quorum.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh) : You cannot leave the House when the Quorum Bell is ringing. It is only the Whip who is allowed to leave.

I am going to look for people because I represent my people.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Stop the Quorum Bell because we do not have quorum. Hon. Members, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday 2nd March, 2017, at 2.30 p.m.

The House rose at 6.03 p.m.