Wednesday, 19th March, 2025 Afternoon Sitting

Clerk, do we have quorum?

Serjeant-at-Arms, kindly ring the Quorum Bell for 10 minutes.

Hon. Senators, we now have quorum. Clerk, kindly call the first Order.

Statement pursuant to Standing Order No.52 (1) . Proceed, Sen. Hezena.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.52 (1) to make a Statement on a matter of general topical concern namely the increased cases of gang attacks in Samburu County.

In recent months, Samburu County has experienced a surge in violent criminal activities perpetrated by gangs, distinguishing themselves as bandits. This escalating insecurity poses a significant threat to the safety of residents and the stability of businesses. The several incidents of criminal attacks have been reported as follows–

Statement pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) . Proceed, Sen. Hezena

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) , to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources regarding the devastating fire outbreaks in Elbarta Plains in Samburu North Constituency, Samburu County.

The Elbarta Plains is a critical grassland ecosystem that has historically supported thousands of livestock and wildlife. It is one of the last remaining intact land cover areas in Samburu County and serves as a vital refuge for pastoralists during droughts. The recent wildfires have destroyed vast swathes of land, severely threatening livelihoods, biodiversity and regional stability.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, multiple fire outbreaks have been recorded, beginning with a blaze on 1st February, 2025 in Lbaa Oibor, which spread rapidly to Lderendei, destroying over 1,000 acres. Subsequently, fires erupted in Ltirim Loldrkesi on 7th February, 2025 burning for four days. Again, on 13th February, 2025 affecting Sikira Plain, Lkangura Loregel and Marti Plateau, with flames raging for eight days consistently.

In March, fires continued, with an incident on 4th March, 2025 burning for five days from Naagis to Lomirog Hill. Another fire broke out on 7th March, 2025 in Noosidan and Ltepes. In total, more than 30,000 acres of crucial forage have been lost.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, despite prompt reporting to the County Disaster Department and information sharing with the local community, there was no effective response due to inadequate disaster preparedness in the region. Security agencies were notified and efforts were made by the Grevy's Zebra Trust (GZT) along with conservancy rangers to control the fires, but they were overwhelmed.

In the Statement the committee should-

Proceed, Sen. Alexander Mundigi.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) , to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Roads, Transportation and Housing regarding tarmacking of the Siakago-Soko-Kamumu-Kanyuambora road in Mbeere North Sub-County, Embu County.

This road serves as a crucial economic corridor for the residents of Mbeere North and its completion is vital for the economic growth of the region. The construction of the road, which covers an approximate distance of 35 kilometres commenced in 2021. However, in 2023, the project was re-tendered and to date, only 3kilometres have been constructed.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. Beatrice Ogola.

This Statement is deferred.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries regarding the shortage of certified seeds at the Kenya Seed Company Limited. In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. Githuku, you have two Statements. You may proceed to read both.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources regarding the compensation status of the victims of human-wildlife conflicts in Lamu County. In the Statement, the Committee should-

Sen. Joe Nyutu.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations regarding the insecurity and misconduct of certain police officers in Murang’a County.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. Abass Sheikh.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee of Health regarding the outbreak of Kala-azar in Wajir County. Kala-azar is a severe and potentially vital disease that is transmitted by sandflies. It thrives in conditions of poor housing, malnutrition and weakened immune systems. Several cases have been reported in Wajir County, including death. We are soliciting for urgent medical, logistical and financial interventions to prevent further fatalities and contain its spread.

The control of pandemics, disasters and emergencies is the responsibility and functions of the national government. The counties do not have testing kits. Kala-azar requires a special kit for identification. However, two weeks ago, the same issue has been raised by my colleagues and it has already spread to Turkana, Mandera and Wajir. This disease might spread to the rest of the country.

In the Statement, the Committee should-

Senator Mohammed Chute, you may proceed.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) , to seek a statement from the Standing Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources regarding the status of land ownership and utilisation by the Kenya Prisons Service.

In the Statement, the committee should address the following-

Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda, you may proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have three Statements, and the first Statement is on the welfare of National Government Administration Officers in Kisumu County.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on National Security, Defense and Foreign Relations regarding the welfare of the National Government Administrative Officers in Kisumu County.

Chiefs, Assistant Chiefs, Deputy County Commissioners (DCCs) and other National Government Administrative Officers play a crucial role in maintaining law and order, implementing government programs and enhancing service delivery at the grassroots level. However, concerns have been raised regarding their working conditions, remuneration, housing, medical cover, retirement benefits and participation in

cooperative saving schemes such as Savings and Credit Cooperative Organisations (SACCOs).

In the Statement, the committee should-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Land, Environment, and Natural Resources regarding the viability, suitability and safety of Ombeyi Dump Site in Muhoroni Sub-County, Kisumu County.

The Ombeyi Dump Site has raised significant concerns among residents due to its impact on agricultural activities, air quality and the environment.

Section Three of the Environment Management and Coordination Act (EMCA) guarantees the right to a clean and healthy environment, while Section Eight of the same Act prohibits hazardous waste handling and disposal. The law further mandates safe waste management practices to prevent pollution and environmental degradation.

The Ombeyi Dump Site has failed to comply with the waste management regulations outlined in EMCA. Additionally, Article 186 (1) of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 read together with Part 2 (g) of the Fourth Schedule, assigns the responsibility of waste management, including refuse removal, dump site and solid waste disposal to the county government, in this case, Kisumu County.

In the Statement, the committee should-

Hon. Senators, I will allow comments on the Statements for period not exceeding 20 minutes. So, if you get an opportunity to speak, keep it under three minutes.

The Hon. Senator of Vihiga County, Sen. Osotsi, please proceed.

Thank You Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to support the Statement by the Senator of Kisumu County, on the issue of conditions of working for police officers. We have talked about this matter for quite some time now in the public discourse and even in this House.

It is, therefore, important that attention be given to it. We have seen rising cases of suicide among police officers and insecurity, which are attributed to the morale and the quality of working environment that the police are exposed to.

I hope that the relevant Committee will look at this matter keenly and recommend measures so that we can have our officers living in the right environment and that will help them provide the security that we need.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the second Statement that I would like to comment on is by the Senator of Lamu County, on the issue of development budget spending for his county. I would like to associate with that Statement and the other statements that the other Members have raised on the same matter. However, allow me to raise a concern. We have had a significant number of Senators raising similar Statements on the issue of budget, pending bills and general financial matters in our county, which are directed to the relevant Committee on Finance and Budget. However, there are other committees also dealing with the same matter of pending bills and such things. We are going to confuse ourselves on this matter of pending bills, taking into account that the Senate Minority Whip, Sen. Olekina, came up with a good motion which this House passed.

In addition, the relevant Committee of Finance and Budget has also been handling this matter of pending bills. It is confusing if we allow other committees to start working on the same matter and inviting the same county governments to appear before them. We will get confused. I therefore would like to suggest that we uphold the Motion that we passed here on the matter of budget and pending bills and work towards its full implementation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support and would like to associate myself with those Statements.

Sen. Veronica Nduati, please proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity to comment on the Statement which has been brought to this House by Sen. Joe Nyutu from Murang’a County.

It is my hope and prayer that, when the Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations retreats to consider the insecurity that has been happening within Murang’a County, the investigations or whatever process they undertake, are going to unfold the circumstances surrounding the death of Ms. Joy Chista Muthoni, a Grade Eight student at Wambwe Primary School, that occurred in Wambwe Village, Mathioya Constituency, on 7th January, 2025.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope and trust that the perpetrators are not walking free in Murang’a County and posing a risk to other students or other people within the county. It is my hope and prayer that when the Committee handles this matter, it will be given the attention that it deserves, especially noting that it is a minor who was involved and the

perpetrators are adults. The best interest of those pupils in Wambwe Primary School and in other primary schools in Murang’a and other counties, would demand that proper investigations are done and they are made public, and that the perpetrators are brought to book.

It is also pathetic to note that some bloggers or people who posted circumstances surrounding the death of Baby Wamaitha in Maragua Town, including Ms. Ejidia Wairimu, Ms. Lucy Murage and Ms. Nancy Njoki, on 25th, just because of expressing their views within the media, were put under arrest.

I would say this is a shame because if one person has lost a baby, Baby Wamaitha, a child has died out of circumstances surrounding insecurity and violent action from perpetrators. It is very shocking that the police officers dared to arrest Kenyans who had expressed their distaste and disgust at the violence that was meted out on a very young baby who was not only killed on that day, but was also defiled and put in a well.

I hope when the Committee retreats, these issues are going to be treated with a lot of seriousness, the kind of seriousness that they deserve and that answers will be given to the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, finally, it is unfortunate that one police officer, Mr. James Wahome, who was actually---

Please give the Hon. Senator one minute to conclude her remarks.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This police officer was actually working in a police station which is next to my mother's house, Kanyanyiane Police Station. I watched some of the videos where this police officer walked to a bus stage and literally beat people up with a very huge cane, and clobbered anybody who did not give him the money he was demanding for. I watched those videos.

When the Committee retreats, we want to know whether the police service has a psychosocial support unit, because he did not even look like he was on his normal day, a sane moment. He seemed to have been going through another set of--- I do not know what the doctors would call it, but we want to know whether the police service actually has a psychosocial support, because transferring such an officer does not give answer to Kenyans.

You cannot transfer trouble from one police station to another police station. That must be handled and the help that is needed for such an officer must be given. We would like to hear what kind of a structure the police have put in place, because the welfare of our police officers, has been demanding attention from their housing to their welfare. We have had very many police officers shooting one another in police stations. I do not know what kind of frustration they are going through.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, however, if it is about salaries, housing, welfare and how they are being treated by the public, it is high time that the report that was given by the former Chief justice (CJ) Justice Maraga, is made public, and the implementation of all the dissolutions that are put within that report are also looked into, so that we do not just have reports without implementation of the action that is laid down in that report.

So, we would like to hear---

Sen. Olekina, please proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to contribute to two Statements. One Statement which is really baffling is the Statement raised by the distinguished Senator from Wajir County

Two weeks ago, the distinguished Senator of Marsabit County raised the same Statement on this Kala-azar. Kala-azar is a very dangerous disease. We only used to hear about Kala-azar from India, and it is associated with poverty. That means there are serious underlying issues that are affecting our people in the north, like the issue of poverty. If the Ministry of Health does not take serious concern, it will spread rapidly, even to those other areas of Kisumu County, where the distinguished Senator of Kisumu was raising a Statement about the dangers of floods. Kala-azar will end up there.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we need to be serious on this matter. It would be sad for us to hear that statement again being raised. I would like to request the Ministry of Health to move expeditiously, and the two county governments to work together in order to deal with the issue of this disease.

The second issue is that of insecurity in Samburu. The distinguished Senator of Samburu and the Deputy Minority Whip raised that issue last week. Today, the Nominated Senator from Samburu, Sen. Hezena, has also raised the issue of serious insecurity in Samburu County. If we keep on talking about these things and we do not take action, people are going to suffer.

It is about time that the Ministry of Interior and National Administration takes serious action. I also request the two Chairs for the Committee on Health and the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations to move to the departments and Ministries. Let us not go through the secretariat and send these statements, but we should take action.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was very impressed yesterday with the Speaker when he saw people protesting outside and he directed two of our colleagues to go and receive that petition and deal with it. This is the only way. As leaders, when we become proactive, it will be the only way that we can resolve these problems. Therefore, the issue of Kala- azar is a time bomb. The issue of insecurity in Samburu is another one. If we do not deal with it, we will be counting casualties.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Mungatana.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to comment on the Statement by the hon. Senator of Kisumu, on the question of floods. Many times when we talk about floods, we talk about floods mitigation, then we go up to that point where people are requesting for support, and then we end the story at the point where people are saying thank you for the support. However, the monies that are utilized to fund these activities are never investigated or reported. For example, the committee that was formed in Tana River County to spearhead fundraising has never reported how much money they raised, how much money was disbursed and who was involved in those contracts. The national Government was also involved in the massive distribution of relief food and non-food items. Again, these were never disclosed. The funds that were utilized were never disclosed.

Other international bodies like the Kenya Red Cross Society (KRCS) and the World Food Programme (WFP) as well as others, came in to support us and we are grateful. However, the finances and the monies that were put towards the floods mitigation measures and support were never disclosed. The Committee should also investigate, call the relevant people involved and the organizations, in order to find out what monies were utilized. This is because, if this does not become the way to operate, then every time we have disasters like floods, we will be having people who take advantage and floods will become a way to earn money and to make people rich, instead of dealing with the problems that are there.

Sen. Sifuna.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. For me, the Statement by the Senator of Lamu is most critical. We are halfway through the term of this Parliament and the term of everyone who was elected in 2022. The entire discussion for t he remainder of the period should be about development and development-spending.

Here in Nairobi, we got some curious information from the Controller of Budget (CoB) that the County of Nairobi City had spent zero on development in the last financial year. I am happy that the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations chaired very ably by Senator of Wajir, Hon. Abbas, has scheduled a conversation with my County Government, so that we go through every single coin that has been pushed through this Senate to the County Government of Nairobi City in the two financial years because we want to be told where this money has gone.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there should be nothing else to discuss. Although I share the concerns by Sen. Osotsi on the confusion on which committee handles which matter, I am more than pleased to have these governors appearing in all of our committees. This is because Sen. Abbas will focus on development spending and fiscal responsibility will be the duty of the Committee on Finance and Budget. We need to have these conversations. If we do nothing else for the remainder of the term, let us have that conversation on development spending. If you look at the report of the Auditor-General, many of our counties are spending much higher amounts on recurrent expenditure. People are doing up to 60 per cent and nothing is happening on the development side.

There was also a very interesting conversation on the national Government spending in our counties. Whereas everybody is clear on how much money goes to their counties through devolution, we are not clear on how much money the national Government spends in our respective counties. I would want the Committee on Finance and Budget to also focus on that. We would like to know of the entire amount of money, the Kshs2 trillion that is reserved to the national Government, how much has been spent in my county on roads or on education for instance. This is because I saw the President around and most of the projects he was launching were projects that were either undertaken by the County Government or by the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) through Members of Parliament (MPs) .

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we want to know how much money of the national Government share has been spent by the Ministry of Youth Affairs, Creative Economy and Sports, Ministry of Tourism and Petroleum or the Ministry of Lands, Public Works, Housing and Urban Development, how much money of the national government share in our

individual counties. That is the only way we can ascertain that there is equity in the spending of national resources, remembering that the national Government will borrow without any reference to the county governments or this House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have no sight over that spending. That spending will be spent however they want, but when it comes to payment, all of us are on the hook. Therefore, this is a conversation we should focus on for the remainder of the term.

Sen. Chimera.

Asante, Bw. Spika kwa fursa hii. Ningependa kuchangia kwa ile Taarifa ya Seneta Joe Nyutu kutoka Murangá, kuhusu kifo cha yule Bi. Joyster Muchina. Kwanza, ninapeana rambirambi zangu kwa familia ya mwenda zake kwa kupoteza maisha yake kupitia mikono ya watenda kazi wetu wa usalama.

Ni kinaya kuona wale maafisa wa polisi ambao wanafaa kutupea usalama kama wananchi ndio wako mstari wa mbele kutoa maisha ya binadamu wetu. Hatua ile ya maafisa wa polisi kujihusisha na maswala ambayo ni ya kigaidi inafanya wananchi wetu wanapoteza uhai na hio si sawa. Kwa hivyo, ninapeana ilani kali sana kwa maafisa watakaopatikana kwa swala hili.

Bw. Spika, ninachukua fursa hii kuzungumzia kudorora kwa usalama pale Kaza Moyo eneo bunge la Kinango. Utapata maafisa wa usalama, hususan maafisa wa GSU, wanahangaisha wananchi wetu pale Kaza Moya kiholela. Wananchi wamepigwa vita na maafisa wetu wa usalama. Vile vile, wengine wamejeruhiwa na wengine kupoteza uhai wao kwa sababu ya swala la maafisa wa usalama kudhibiti usalama.

Naomba Kamati ya Usalama ifanye kazi yake kwa undani sana. Afisa atakayepatikana na hatua yeyote, Kamati hii ichukue hatua kali na ishikane na lile shirika la Independent Policing Oversight Authority (IPOA) ili maafisa hao wa usalama wapelekwe kortini na waachishwe kazi. Hii itakua funzo kwa maafisa wa usalama wengine kuwa sio vyema mwananchi wa Kenya leo hii apoteze uhai wake kupitia kwa mikono ya maafisa hawa.

Ninampongeza Seneta Joe Nyutu kwa kuleta taarifa hii hapa Bungeni na nina imani kwamba Kamati hii itafanya kazi ambayo itasaidia Wakenya wote na kuhakikisha kwamba hatua kali zimechukuliwa dhidi ya maafisa hawa wanaokosa nidhamu na kupoteza maisha ya wananchi wetu mikononi mwao.

Sen. Faki, proceed.

Asante, Bw. Spika kwa kunipa fursa hii kuchangia kwenye Kauli iliyoletwa Bungeni na Sen. Abass, Seneta wa Wajir. Amezungumzia masuala ya ugonjwa wa Kala-azar. Ugonjwa huu umeingia katika Kaunti za kaskazini.

Wiki iliyopita tulizungumzia Kaunti ya Marsabit, hivi sasa tunazungumzia Kaunti ya Wajir. Zamani, afya haikuwa imegatuliwa. Ilikuwa ni shida kupata wataalamu wa kupambana na majanga kama haya kwa muda mfupi. Kaunti zetu hazijafanya mipango yoyote kuhusiana na magonjwa kama haya. Inakuaje ugonjwa unaingia, wananchi wanafariki, sio mmoja bali wawili watatu. Ripoti ya magazeti ilisema kuwa watu kadhaa wamepoteza maisha yao kwa sababu ya ugonjwa huu. Ni ugonjwa ambao unaweza kutibiwa na kuepukwa wakati wananchi watazingatia usafi ili kupambana na masuala kama haya. Ni muhimu Bunge hii iangalie ni vipi kaunti zinapambana na majanga.

Hakuna mandalizi kwenye kaunti ya kupambana na majanga kama haya ambayo yanatokea mara kwa mara na kupoteza Maisha ambayo tungeokoa.

Tulipopambana na janga la COVID-19, kaunti nyingi zilijitayarisha na kujenga vyumba vya wagonjwa mahututi. Hivi sasa tunashikwa na magonjwa madogo madogo kama haya ambayo yanaweza kutibiwa na kuepukwa iwapo kaunti zetu zitakuwa imara katika kuangalia afya ya umma katika maeneo yao.

Pia ningependa kutoa maoni yangu kuhusiana na Kauli ya Sen. Githuku, Seneta wa Lamu. Kauli ni kuhusiana na ulipaji wa ridhaa kwa watu wanaoadhiriwa na masuala ya kushambuliwa na wanyama pori katika maeneo yetu. Hili limekuwa ni donda sugu. Juzi tulipata fursa ya kukutana na waziri. Tumemwambia kuwa tungependa kupewa orodha ya wale ambao wamelipwa kuanzia mwaka wa 2020 mpaka leo ili tujue kama malipo yanatolewa kulingana na wale ambao waliumia zamani ama malipo yanalipwa kulingana na wale wanajua maofisa wanaolipa. Kuna watu wengi walioshambuliwa na wanyama na wengine wamefariki na familia zao hazijapata ridhaa. Wengine ni vilema na familia zao hazijapata ridhaa. Ni muhimu Waziri aweze kueleza na atoe ---

Sen. Faki, I will allow you one minute.

Asante Bw. Spika. Kisha tujue ni vipi wanafanya malipo haya. Kuna wengine ambao wamepeleka madai gushi, wamelipwa wakati wale ambao wanastahili kulipwa bado wanangojea na hawajulikani watalipwa lini.

Sen. Okenyuri, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to support the Statement by Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda on the general welfare of national Government administrative officers.

These are the eyes of the Government at the grass-roots. They encounter challenges day in and day out. Take, for instance, the case of local assistant chiefs and chiefs. Initially, there would be security in their areas of operation. Right now, the chiefs and assistant chiefs are left with the swag cane, which they carry around in all the meetings they engage in.

As a country, we need to prioritise their welfare. They need regular training, so that they are conversant with recent happenings in terms of conflict resolution. We also need more security, especially in the border areas. Sometimes these officers are attacked by criminals who are hostile towards whatever they are doing, which is largely affecting their work, especially in the fight against illicit brew.

Also, I would like to comment on the Statement by Sen. Joe Nyutu on the Grade Eight young child who was killed. We are losing the future of this country. Every day, you read the statistics in the national newspaper of children who are either being molested or trafficked or children who are being sold, even before they get to know what is in for them in this country.

I also wish to comment on the Statement on dumping. The issue of dumping is largely affecting county governments across this country. Low sanitation causes disease outbreaks, which would otherwise have been prevented if we had avoided disposing of waste products. So that we have a population that is responsible enough to avoid dumping, the Government should ensure that we are providing it in marketplaces or places where we are likely to encounter dumping places for disposing of waste products.

Finally, there is the issue of the welfare of police in this country. We cannot expect police officers to provide security, as they live in a sorry state. We need to also treat them as other officers serving in public service in this country.

Sen. Githuku, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to associate myself with the Statement by Sen. (Prof) Tom Ojienda of Kisumu County regarding the flooding in Kisumu County.

As we draw near to the rainy season, it is imperative that the Government implements measures to support and help the people of this country. We have seen in different instances that some people really suffer during the rainy season.

We once had a problem in Lamu County, where many people were displaced, their properties destroyed and there was no compensation. The Government is supposed to take care of them because they are taxpayers. The national Government must help these vulnerable people in the event of such a disaster.

I also wish to urge the county governments, especially the governors of the 47 counties. In most instances, the governors hide in the coats of the national Government. Sometimes, the governors leave the disasters to be dealt with by the national Government, whereas they have a kitty that is supposed to help the citizens in the event that the disaster strikes.

If the county governments can see to it that they also chip in, in terms of helping members of the public that they represent in different parts of this country, funds allocated for disaster can be used effectively, and the citizens of this country can enjoy the fruits of the devolution.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Miraj, proceed.

Asante Bw. Spika kwa fursa hii ili niweze kutilia pondo Kauli iliyoletwa na Seneta wa Murang’a, Sen. Joe Nyutu, kuhusiana na maafisa wa polisi ambao wametumia mamlaka yao vibaya.

Pale kwetu kwenye Gatuzi la Mombasa, kuna mwanamke mmoja katika eneo la Likoni aliyepigwa risasi akiwa ndani ya nyumba yake. Tunaweza kutoa matukio ya kisanga hicho. Cha kushangaza ni kwamba mpaka sasa, hata baada ya kujua kuwa kulikuwa na utepetevu kwa upande wa askari yule, hakuna fidia ambayo imepeanwa kwa jamii, kufuatiliwa kwa jambo lile au anwani yoyote kuandikwa katika kituo cha polisi chochote. Mume wa mwendazake alienda katika kituo cha polisi akanyimwa nafasi ya kuandika taarifa ya kifo cha mke wake.

Naendelea kutamaushwa na mazungumzo haya. Kuna maafisa wa polisi wanaopeana usalama katika Kituo cha Central Police kilichoko mita 100 kutoka Uwanja wa Makadara Grounds kule Mombasa. Cha kushangaza ni kwamba watoto wanaorandaranda mitaani walipiga wananchi mawe msimu huu wa Ramadhani, ilhali hakuna hatua yoyote ilichukuliwa hadi baada ya lisaa limoja. Hiyo inaashiria kwamba wananchi wa Kenya wako peke yao kwa sababu hakuna mtu wa kuwaangalia na kuwalinda.

Nikimalizia, tunaelekea msimu wa mvua nyingi. Kwa hakika, alivyozungumza Seneta wa Lamu, ni kweli kwamba Serikali ya Kitaifa, serikali za magatuzi na hata

National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) bado zina pesa ya kusaidia waathiriwa. Kuna hazina hizi zote za pesa. Kwa nini watu wasikae pamoja?

Rais ameonyesha mfano mzuri wa kuweka viongozi wote pamoja. Kwa nini tusishughulikie maeneo kama Links Road kule Nyali ambayo tunajua miaka nenda miaka rudi kwamba mvua inaponyesha kupita kiasi maji hayapiti? Kwa mfano, tunapozungumzia kuwatahadharisha wananchi kupitia kaunti, hatuzungumzii tu kuzibuliwa kwa njia za majitaka. Tunazungumzia pia wale watu watakaopeana huduma ya kwanza kupewa vifaa. Kwa kuwa tunajua kwamba maji mengi yanaingia katika maeneo fulani, tunafaa kuwa na shule ambazo zimetayarishwa kupokea waathiriwa wa majanga kama yale.

Tunaomba sisi kama Seneti tusiwe---

Proceed, Sen. Hezena.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, mine is a request. If you deem it fit, kindly refer my Statement on the gang attacks in Samburu County to the relevant committee, which is the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations, given that it is a different matter from what Sen. (Dr.) Lelegwe had raised last week. This is about attacks in the towns.

When you rose to make your request, you requested your matter to be taken to which committee?

To the Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations.

So be it. Yes, Sen. Chute.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to contribute on the three Statements. The first one is the Statement that was requested by the Senator of Lamu. The problem facing all the 47 counties in this country is that some governors claim to have about 35 to 36 per cent of money on development. However, if you go to those counties to see what they have done, it is less than five per cent.

You will find it written all over, including in the newspapers, that a certain county is using 40, 30, or 15 per cent of the budget on development, but in actual sense, development budget is less than 10 per cent. I am talking specifically about North- Eastern counties. Marsabit County was position one at 36 per cent. I have a Statement in that regard.

If you look at what is happening in Marsabit, we are even at six per cent. I support what the Senator of Lamu has brought. I would like the committee concerned, which is the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations, to look at development projects in all the 47 counties.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me also contribute to my friend’s Statement, the Senator of Wajir, Sen. Abass Sheikh. Last week, I raised the issue of Kala-azar. When I asked my friend whether he had any issues in Wajir, he said no. Today, he told me that his people are dying. According to him, almost 15 people have died. Turkana County has similar

problems. If you look at what the Government is trying to do, they are trying to vaccinate animals to a tune of 22 million head of cattle. Why do you spend that money on animals? Why do you not spend that money on people because they are dying? With the Broad- Based Government now, I think we have better eyes, better ears and also better stomachs. Let us think of how we are going to start caring about human lives.

Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, Sir---

You have 30 seconds to conclude.

If you go to the National Treasury, they will tell you that the documents are with KWS. This is my request to the Committee. Please, invite KWS, the National Treasury, and even leaders from the 47 counties. Let them come and say what has been paid, what has not been paid, and what has been diverted to other uses, so that we can know because families are suffering. Some lost their fathers, uncles, sisters, and mothers. Let us take this matter seriously, so that we solve this problem once and for all.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Eddy, proceed.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity. There was a Statement requested by the Senator of Kisumu on viability, sustainability and safety of Ombeyi Dumpsite in Muhoroni Sub-County, Kisumu County.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, many times you are very lenient and you allow us to discuss issues as a House and in the committees without your hands in them. I also know your leadership capability sometimes in convening meetings that we refer to as kamukunji in this House to discuss matters of national importance as well as matters that affect the House. This is a crisis Statement.

Have you imagined how we deal with waste management in our counties? In Migori County where I come from, there is no dumpsite or any strategy for managing waste. There is no any infrastructure for managing waste where 1.2 million people are living. The kind of diseases that we see emerging in our counties today, including air pollution, consuming crops from sewerages and open defecation and the kind of lifestyle diseases that we face today, are because of lack of waste management.

I want you to imagine our hospitals and all our health facilities. Think about the amount of clinical waste from health facilities. Have we ever thought about where clinical wastes go to? If there is clinical waste from any hospital in our counties, where does it go to?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, even as you commit this particular Statement to the Committee on Health, I want to prick your conscience to convene this House to have a kamukunji. As a House, it is high time we discussed the issue of waste management in our counties and devised a strategy that calls upon our governors to invest in health matters, the same way we have dealt with the issue of pending bills in the counties. As we send money to the

counties, waste management should be a priority in our counties. I support this Statement, but call your attention to it more than just a commitment to the committees.

I thank you.

Very well, Sen. Mutinda.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Allow me to start by commenting on the Statement by the Senator of Kisumu County, the Senior Counsel, regarding the issue of floods, which also touches on the critical matter of waste management.

The essence of having a devolved Government at this particular time, from when the decision was made, was to ensure that we have counties that are beautiful towns and very accommodative to our people. We are in the rainy season and from the previous happenings, we have seen the damages that also come with the heavy rains, which end up causing high levels of floods. If this waste management is not well done at this time, we will leave our people at risk. We will end up having high costs, because we are dealing with the crisis, instead of having a preventive measure at this moment.

When it comes to rain, we have issues that range from our people not being able to have mobility because the roads have been completely damaged and flooded. We also have issues of waterborne diseases that arise and affect the young to the old. Therefore, these are matters that the counties should provide the strategy management that they have, and also put competent people who are qualified to deal with disaster management. The question of putting someone who is not knowledgeable in waste management is affecting counties.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, allow me to also touch on the Statement by the Senator of Murang’a, Joe Nyutu, that talks about the young soul of a Grade Eight student, Ms. Muthoni, from Muranga County. Where we are as a country is so sickening and saddening. The last few weeks we saw a rogue pastor from Nakuru County, who has put churches across these different cities and is molesting boys. As parents and as a nation, we have trusted the church. However, you find that a rogue pastor would be subjecting young children to molestation.

We want justice for Ms. Muthoni from the relevant committee of security. Justice needs to be served for this young soul, for Christ's sake. A girl who has chosen to go to undertake ---

You have an additional minute to conclude your remarks on the Floor, Senator.

I will now touch on the issue of the police from this Kanyenyaini police station, According to this Statement, after his hullabaloo and after he had gone crazy and started beating everyone, what the institution did was to transfer him. The question is very simple. How do you transfer one problem from one area to the other? Are we solving this problem? What should have happened and should still happen is that this particular officer should be taken for mental health services and counselling. We cannot remove one problem from one place to the other, putting in mind the kind of problems that we have such as femicide, yet we have young boys and girls.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we request that the recommendation from the Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations should be that this officer should serve

as an example. Officers are not bad. I have just come from seeing a patient who was rescued by a very good police officer and taken to the nearest hospital without looking at any other thing.

There are very good police officers in this country and we appreciate them. Nonetheless, even those who undergo challenges - because challenges are there - are also our brothers and sisters. He should be taken to the nearest health centre for medical processing before he is transferred to his next place of work, so that he undertakes treatment the way it is required.

Finally, people have a right to communicate and express their freedom. It cannot be that when people express their freedom on concerns, then they are subjected to punishment. What happened to Ms. Lucy Murage and Nancy was wrong, as the Senator had already put about baby Ezra when they were voicing out how this baby was killed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that was young soul again. Which future generation are we working for? Which laws are we setting for the young generation if the same institutions cannot be responsible for our young people? Where will our children go?

With those many remarks, we hope that the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Diaspora Affairs will fast-track these issues. Also, let us speed up the reports on Statements so that there is action.

Proceed, Sen. Madzayo.

Asante, Bw. Spika. Naomba

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Wambua, what is your point of order? Take a seat, Senator of Kilifi.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you know Sen. Madzayo is my boss. When I walked in, I was hardly able to recognize him. I am just rising on a point of order for you to clarify whether Sen. Madzayo is properly dressed for the mission he wants to undertake in this House.

Sen. Wambua, religious attire is one of the dress codes that is allowable under the Speaker's Rules.

Sen. Madzayo, proceed. The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) : Bw. Spika, nataka kuunga mkono Taarifa iliyotolewa hapa na ndugu yetu Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda wa Kisumu. Ni kweli kwamba hapa Kenya, hususan pande za Kisumu na maeneo ya Nyando, hutatizwa sana na mafuriko. Zaidi sana wananchi hupoteza maisha yao.

Bw. Spika, tukizingatia vile vile hali ya mafuriko, wakati wa mvua ukifika hakuna hata siku moja tumeweza kuona Serikali yetu ya Kenya Kwanza ikiweka kipaumbele mambo ya mafuriko. Kitu tunaona tu ni kwamba wananchi wengi wanasombwa na maji wakati wa mafuriko, wengine wanafariki na hata wengine kutolewa katika maeneo ambayo yako chini kule walikoweza kujisitiri kiamaisha kama nyumbani

kwao. Hatimaye wale watu wetu wakaweza kuchukuliwa na kuwekwa katika maeneo ambayo yako juu kidogo na mto huko chini.

Miaka mitano hivi ama sita, nakumbuka kwetu katika Kaunti ya Kilifi pia tulikuwa na janga hili la mafuriko. Wakati mwingi tukipatikana na janga kama hili, inakuwa shida. Watoto na kina mama na wazee ndio wanapata taabu. Hii ni kwa sababu maeneo wanapoishi na kuita nyumbani yanasombwa na maji. Mifugo na hata kuku wanachukuliwa na maji na wanaenda, halafu hasara inakuwa kubwa sana.

Bw. Spika, ingekuwa vyema ikiwa Serikali inaweza kujiandaa na kujitayarisha vizuri wakati huu ambao mafuriko yanatarajiwa kuja. Ukienda upande wa Bunyala, utaona kila mwaka ujao na uchao, kila tukiendelea mafuriko kule yanaua watu na kufurika maeneo fulani. Kwa hivyo, katika Taarifa hii ningependa sana maeneo yote katika nchi ya Kenya kuchunguzwa ili kuonekana kule ambako kuna uwezekano kuwa na mafuriko ambayo yanaweza kuletea wananchi taabu, kuwaondoa manyumbani kwao na hata kupoteza mifugo yao.

Wakati mwingine makaburi yanaoshwa na mafuriko. Kwa hiyo, kuna umuhimu wa Serikali kujiandaa ili izingatie mambo ya mafuriko msimu unaokuja wa mvua.

Asante, Bw. Spika.

kwao. Hatimaye wale watu wetu wakaweza kuchukuliwa na kuwekwa katika maeneo ambayo yako juu kidogo na mto huko chini.

Miaka mitano hivi ama sita, nakumbuka kwetu katika Kaunti ya Kilifi pia tulikuwa na janga hili la mafuriko. Wakati mwingi tukipatikana na janga kama hili, inakuwa shida. Watoto na kina mama na wazee ndio wanapata taabu. Hii ni kwa sababu maeneo wanapoishi na kuita nyumbani yanasombwa na maji. Mifugo na hata kuku wanachukuliwa na maji na wanaenda, halafu hasara inakuwa kubwa sana.

Bw. Spika, ingekuwa vyema ikiwa Serikali inaweza kujiandaa na kujitayarisha vizuri wakati huu ambao mafuriko yanatarajiwa kuja. Ukienda upande wa Bunyala, utaona kila mwaka ujao na uchao, kila tukiendelea mafuriko kule yanaua watu na kufurika maeneo fulani. Kwa hivyo, katika Taarifa hii ningependa sana maeneo yote katika nchi ya Kenya kuchunguzwa ili kuonekana kule ambako kuna uwezekano kuwa na mafuriko ambayo yanaweza kuletea wananchi taabu, kuwaondoa manyumbani kwao na hata kupoteza mifugo yao.

Wakati mwingine makaburi yanaoshwa na mafuriko. Kwa hiyo, kuna umuhimu wa Serikali kujiandaa ili izingatie mambo ya mafuriko msimu unaokuja wa mvua.

Asante, Bw. Spika.

Sen. Abass, proceed.

Sen. Onyonka, proceed.

Sen. Onyonka, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First, I would like to commend Hon. Chute for bringing this substantive issue. All of us do not know what to do. Private land is being taken over by private individuals and companies, like Hon. Abass has said, and when somebody goes to court to sort out the issue, the courts are not delivering fair judgement.

I wish that the Standing Committee on Lands Environment and Natural Resources will handle this. The Government should take this very seriously and understand the implications of it. We do not want to encourage anarchy in our country. Let there be fairness, justice and all the things that Kenyans want.

The second issue I want to contribute on is the case brought by Sen. Hezena on the attacks that are happening in Samburu County. In her Statement, there are three incidents that have happened. One was in December, 2024 at the local Lake Oil Petrol Station at a place called Kisima-Maralal Road. The second one was at a place called Isima, where there was a raid by gangs. The third one is where a businessman was killed.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration should seriously consider this matter because this is not the only issue on what is happening internally that has been brought out. Kenyans have the capacity. The security forces can do their job. Can we make sure that people are safe and our country is operationalised?

Finally---

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

It is okay, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sen. Eddy can inform me.

Sen. Eddy, you may proceed to inform your colleague.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Onyonka was not here in the morning, which is the basis of my information to him. When the Cabinet Secretary for Defence appeared, the Senator of Meru County was on record indicating that there is some semblance of peace that has been found in that region. I wanted to inform the Senator of Kisii County that what the Senator of Meru implied is not true. Therefore, as he contributes, he should further the thought that we have not had enough peace in Samburu as well as Baringo. This problem is still going on. As we contribute to this Statement, we need to fight and make sure that it is dealt with once and for all.

I thank you.

Sen. Onyonka, if you find that information useful, you may take it. If not, you may proceed with your remarks.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sen. Eddy, I did not find that information useful, but I accept the data you have given me.

Finally, the human-wildlife conflict in Lamu County is another matter that needs to be handled with care and urgency because this is not the first time it is happening. I believe that the committees responsible will interrogate this matter as soon as possible. If not, the small incidents you see happening will degenerate and end up becoming some of the big issues that affect our country.

I thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to vent on this issue.

Hon. Senators, before I allow the Clerk-at-the-Table, to call the next Order, allow me to pass this Message.

Hon. Senators, before I allow the Clerk-at-the-Table, to call the next Order, allow me to pass this Message.

Assembly regarding the decision of the National Assembly on the Senate amendments to the Gambling Control Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.70 of 2023).

The Message, dated Wednesday 12th March, 2025, was received in the office of the Clerk of the Senate on Wednesday 12th March 2025.

Pursuant to Standing Order 46-4, I now report the message- Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.41(1) and 148(b) of the National Assembly Standing Orders, I hereby convey the following message from the National Assembly.

WHEREAS, on Wednesday the 6th of December 2023, the National Assembly passed the Gambling Control Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.70 of 2023), and thereafter referred the Bill to the Senate for consideration in accordance with Article 110(4) of the Constitution;

AND WHEREAS on Tuesday the 8th of October 2024, the Senate considered and passed the said Bill with amendments and referred it back to the National Assembly in accordance with the provisions of Article 112(1)(b) of the Constitution;

FURTHER, WHEREAS on Thursday 16th of January 2025, the National Assembly negatived a Motion on consideration of the Senate amendments to the Gambling Control Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.70 of 2023), thereby committing the Bill to Mediation Committee in accordance with the provisions of Article 112(2)(b) of the Constitution;

NOW, THEREFORE, in accordance with the provisions of Article 112 of the Constitution and Standing Orders No.41(1) and 148(b) of the National Assembly Standing Orders, I hereby convey the said decision of the National Assembly to the Senate and seek the appointment of nine Senators to a Mediation Committee to consider the bill in accordance with Article 113 of the Constitution.

CONSEQUENT to the said decision, the Speaker of the National Assembly appointed the following members of the National Assembly to the Mediation Committee to consider the Bill in accordance with Article 113 of the Constitution-

Clerk, do we have the requisite number?

Hon. Senators, this order is deferred. Next Order.

Vile vile, kuna madeni ambayo yamechukuliwa lakini miradi haijaanza. Asubuhi ya leo Waziri wa Maji, Usafi wa Mazingira na Unyunyuziaji alisema hakuna pesa za kulipa ridhaa kwa wale ambao ardhi zao zinachukuliwa kwa hizo miradi za maji. Ukiangalia katika Wizara ya Barabara na Uchukuzi, kuna miradi mingi ambayo imeanzishwa kupitia kwa ufadhili wa wahisani wetu lakini Serikali haijalipa ridhaa wale ambao ardhi zao zinachukuliwa ili barabara hizo zijengwe.

Takriban Shilingi bilioni mia mbili zinahitajika kulipa ridhaa kwa wale ambao ardhi zao zinachukuliwa ili miradi hiyo iweze kufanywa. Kwa hivyo, utapata kuwa pesa zimekopwa na zimekaa katika account lakini hakuna kitu ambacho kinafanyika. Pesa ziko katika benki lakini hakuna mradi unaoendelea kwa sababu serikali haijaweza kuwalipa ridhaa wale ambao ardhi zao zimeadhiriwa na miradi hiyo.

Vile vile, kuna zile pesa ambazo zinalipwa na Serikali kama commitment fee. Pesa hizi zinalipwa lakini hakuna kitu ambacho kinafanyika. Kwa hivyo, tunaendelea kulipa madeni ilhali hiyo miradi ambayo inatakikana kufanyika, na iliyofadhiliwa na pesa hizo haijafanyika na kuonekana kuna mazao yanapatikana katika miradi hiyo.

Mhe. Spika, jambo lingine ni kuwa Serikali inavyokopa ndivyo ambavyo inazuia wafanyi biashara nchini kwetu kukopa na kufanya biashara zao na kupata faida ili waendelee kulipa kodi. Ikiwa serikali inashindana na wafanyi biashara katika mabenki kukopa pesa, serikali itakopa zaidi kuliko wafanyi biashara kwa sababu serikali iko na security ama idhibati ya kutosha kuhakikisha kwamba huo mkopo utalipwa. Hata hivyo, kuna wale ambao wanakopa kama wafanyi biashara wa kibinafsi. Wengine wamechukuwa mikopo kufanya miradi ya county. Hivi sasa, serikali za county hazilipi. Vile vile, wengine wamechukua mikopo kufanya mikopo ya serikali kuu, ilhali Serikali Kuu hailipi hayo madeni.

Kwa hivyo, ufadhili katika benki hizi utapendelea zaidi wachukue mikopo ya serikali kwa sababu wana uhakika kwamba deni zao zitalipwa, kuliko mtu binafsi ambaye ni mfanyi biashara na hivyo basi biashara zitakufa na hatutaweza kukusanya kodi ya kutosha ya kulipia mikopo hizi.

Mhe. Spika, jambo la mwisho ambalo ningependa kuzungumzia ni kwamba, ijapokuwa Serikali Kuu ina nafasi ya kukopa, serikali za kaunti hazina nafasi kama hiyo ya kukopa. Ikiwa atataka kukopa lazima apitie kwa Hazina Kuu na kupata ruhusa ya kukopa, huku mara nyingi ikiwa ni shida kukopa. Kwa hivyo, tunasema kuwa, kwanza Serikali lazima ipunguze matumizi yake. Si lazima wajenge masoko au nyumba za wastani ili wananchi wapate nyumba hizo, yaani affordable housing. Si lazima tufanye sasa. Kwa sababu Uchumi wetu hauwezi kubeba miradi hiyo yote na tuweze kupata maendeleo ambayo itatuwezesha kusonga mbele.

Mhe. Spika, tukiangalia katika sehemu nyingi, miradi hii ya affordable housing imekwama, kwa sababu ya ukosefu wa pesa. Hata wengi wa wale wafanyi biashara wa kibinafsi ambao waliekeza katika miradi hii wameshindwa kuuza nyumba hizo kwa sababu hakuna pesa mifukoni mwa Wakenya. Wakenya wengi hawawezi kudhibiti malipo ambayo yanatakikana kulipiwa kila mwezi au kila mara kwa mara ili waweze kuziweka nyumba hizo.

Mhe. Spika, kuanza Jumatatu, Jumanne, labda hadi Jumatano, kuna kurasa zaidi ya kumi katika magazeti ambazo zinaonyesha kwamba mali ya Wakenya inauzwa kwa

sababu ya ukosefu wa kulipa madeni ambayo wanachukuwa. Kwa hivyo, hakuna haja ya kujenga nyumba hizi halafu zibaki mahame, na mwishowe popo na wanyama wengine wahamie ndani na kuishi katika nyumba hizi ilhali Wakenya hawawezi kumiliki hizo nyumba.

Mhe. Spika, Serikali Kuu inaingilia kazi za kaunti. Unaskia kunajengwa soko na serikali kuu Mjini Mombasa, ilhali soko ile inapaswa kujengwa na Kaunti ya Mombasa. Kilifi wanajengewa masoko na ardhi za kaunti zinachukuliwa na Serikali Kuu kujengwa miradi ambayo serikali za kaunti zinaweza kufanya. Tulipata experience kama hii wakati Serikali Kuu ilipokuja kujenga Mama Ngina Water Front. Walisema sisi tutajenga halafu tutaipeana kwa Serikali ya Kaunti ya Mombasa. Wakati huo Waziri wa Utalii alikuwa Mhe. Balala.

Baadaye, title deed ya Mama Ngina Water Front ilipotoka ilipelekwa National Treasury kwa sababu imeekeza katika mradi ule wa Mama Ngina Water Front. Title deed sasa imetoka na imerudi tena katika ofisi ya Gender. Sasa tunapelekwa huku na kule kama kupiga mpira, wakati tunadai haki hiyo. Kwa hivyo, miradi hii yote ambayo Serikali Kuu inapanga kufanya, inafaa ifanywe na serikali za kaunti. Kama kuna pesa za kufanya miradi hii haiwezekani kwamba upande mmoja wanazuia pesa kuja kwenye kaunti. Tulipigana hapa katika kujadili Division of Revenue mpaka tukaenda medition kwa sababu Serikali ilikuwa haina pesa za kutosha. Walituongezea shilingi bilioni tano peke yake kwa zile ambazo walikuwa wamepanga kupeleka katika kaunti zetu.

Naona mwaka ufuatao kutakuwa na mvutano sana kwa sababu Kamati yetu ya Fedha na Bajeti imependekeza bilioni mia nne na sitini na tano. Hapo kutakuwa na mvutano kwa sababu Serikali Kuu haiko tayari kupeleka pesa hizo katika kaunti. Hata hivyo, tukiangalia miradi ambayo serikali kuu inataka kufanya, kama vile masoko na nyumba, pesa hizi zikikusanywa pamoja ni nyingi kuliko zile ambazo tumependekeza zipelekwe katika kaunti zetu kama mgao wa 2025/2026.

Kwa kumalizia, naunga mkono hii ripoti ambayo imeletwa na Kamati yetu ya Fedha na Bajeti. Tujaribu kuhakikisha ya kwamba tunaiweka Serikali mahali pake kwa maswala ya mikopo. Kuna mikopo mingi ambayo inachukuliwa.

Tulipofungua Bunge, niliona ripoti ya madeni ya nchi ililetwa lakini hatujapata fursa ya kuijadili kwa sababu tulikuwa tunajadiliana na maswala ya Budget Policy Statement pamoja na Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy. Lakini, baada ya hapo tutaingilia maswala hayo ya deni kwa sababu deni ndiyo inatukwaza zaidi sisi Wakenya katika kupata maendeleo ambayo tunastahili kupata katika nchi yetu.

Asante, Mhe. Spika, kwa kunipa fursa hii.

sababu ya ukosefu wa kulipa madeni ambayo wanachukuwa. Kwa hivyo, hakuna haja ya kujenga nyumba hizi halafu zibaki mahame, na mwishowe popo na wanyama wengine wahamie ndani na kuishi katika nyumba hizi ilhali Wakenya hawawezi kumiliki hizo nyumba.

Mhe. Spika, Serikali Kuu inaingilia kazi za kaunti. Unaskia kunajengwa soko na serikali kuu Mjini Mombasa, ilhali soko ile inapaswa kujengwa na Kaunti ya Mombasa. Kilifi wanajengewa masoko na ardhi za kaunti zinachukuliwa na Serikali Kuu kujengwa miradi ambayo serikali za kaunti zinaweza kufanya. Tulipata experience kama hii wakati Serikali Kuu ilipokuja kujenga Mama Ngina Water Front. Walisema sisi tutajenga halafu tutaipeana kwa Serikali ya Kaunti ya Mombasa. Wakati huo Waziri wa Utalii alikuwa Mhe. Balala.

Baadaye, title deed ya Mama Ngina Water Front ilipotoka ilipelekwa National Treasury kwa sababu imeekeza katika mradi ule wa Mama Ngina Water Front. Title deed sasa imetoka na imerudi tena katika ofisi ya Gender. Sasa tunapelekwa huku na kule kama kupiga mpira, wakati tunadai haki hiyo. Kwa hivyo, miradi hii yote ambayo Serikali Kuu inapanga kufanya, inafaa ifanywe na serikali za kaunti. Kama kuna pesa za kufanya miradi hii haiwezekani kwamba upande mmoja wanazuia pesa kuja kwenye kaunti. Tulipigana hapa katika kujadili Division of Revenue mpaka tukaenda medition kwa sababu Serikali ilikuwa haina pesa za kutosha. Walituongezea shilingi bilioni tano peke yake kwa zile ambazo walikuwa wamepanga kupeleka katika kaunti zetu.

Naona mwaka ufuatao kutakuwa na mvutano sana kwa sababu Kamati yetu ya Fedha na Bajeti imependekeza bilioni mia nne na sitini na tano. Hapo kutakuwa na mvutano kwa sababu Serikali Kuu haiko tayari kupeleka pesa hizo katika kaunti. Hata hivyo, tukiangalia miradi ambayo serikali kuu inataka kufanya, kama vile masoko na nyumba, pesa hizi zikikusanywa pamoja ni nyingi kuliko zile ambazo tumependekeza zipelekwe katika kaunti zetu kama mgao wa 2025/2026.

Kwa kumalizia, naunga mkono hii ripoti ambayo imeletwa na Kamati yetu ya Fedha na Bajeti. Tujaribu kuhakikisha ya kwamba tunaiweka Serikali mahali pake kwa maswala ya mikopo. Kuna mikopo mingi ambayo inachukuliwa.

Tulipofungua Bunge, niliona ripoti ya madeni ya nchi ililetwa lakini hatujapata fursa ya kuijadili kwa sababu tulikuwa tunajadiliana na maswala ya Budget Policy Statement pamoja na Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy. Lakini, baada ya hapo tutaingilia maswala hayo ya deni kwa sababu deni ndiyo inatukwaza zaidi sisi Wakenya katika kupata maendeleo ambayo tunastahili kupata katika nchi yetu.

Asante, Mhe. Spika, kwa kunipa fursa hii.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, an example that is always given is that of Hong Kong, the sultanate of Brunei and the country known as Timor-Leste. These countries have done something that is doable even in Kenya. Even within the continent of Africa and despite the fact that we have so much debt as a combined continent, there are countries that have managed to secure their financial management systems to the extent that, the debt to GDP ratio has become very small that we laud them as countries that are almost heading towards debt-free status. The Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) here has a six percent debt to GDP ratio. If you look at Namibia, it has a 22 percent GDP to debt to GDP ratio. The country known as Sao Tome and Principe has a debt to GDP ratio of 32 percent.

So, what is this telling us? It is telling us that even Kenya, with the correct approach and with the correct strategy, can become one of those economies that will be celebrated in the continent of Africa as being able to head towards a debt-free status. I therefore commend the Committee of Finance and Budget, led by Sen. Ali Roba, for the fact that they have sat down and looked at possible ways in which we can manage our debt.

As stated by previous speakers on this matter, we are not in a good place as a country. In fact, the report shows that we have continued to depend largely on domestic borrowing in this country, which has continued to squeeze credit that would have been available for traders, and would have helped to stir economic development.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, an example that is always given is that of Hong Kong, the sultanate of Brunei and the country known as Timor-Leste. These countries have done something that is doable even in Kenya. Even within the continent of Africa and despite the fact that we have so much debt as a combined continent, there are countries that have managed to secure their financial management systems to the extent that, the debt to GDP ratio has become very small that we laud them as countries that are almost heading towards debt-free status. The Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) here has a six percent debt to GDP ratio. If you look at Namibia, it has a 22 percent GDP to debt to GDP ratio. The country known as Sao Tome and Principe has a debt to GDP ratio of 32 percent.

So, what is this telling us? It is telling us that even Kenya, with the correct approach and with the correct strategy, can become one of those economies that will be celebrated in the continent of Africa as being able to head towards a debt-free status. I therefore commend the Committee of Finance and Budget, led by Sen. Ali Roba, for the fact that they have sat down and looked at possible ways in which we can manage our debt.

As stated by previous speakers on this matter, we are not in a good place as a country. In fact, the report shows that we have continued to depend largely on domestic borrowing in this country, which has continued to squeeze credit that would have been available for traders, and would have helped to stir economic development.

do we have the IFMIS, the entire Government system, and the debt management system outside that?

Through this report, the Senate is telling the Republic of Kenya that there is a problem in the National Treasury. Something is not right. We are saying that this system of public debt management should be integrated by the 31st of May. A report must be brought here so that Kenyans can know what is truly happening.

There is also another issue of transparency here. To enhance transparency and accountability in the anticipated increase in domestic borrowing, the National Treasury should, within 60 days, establish a working committee to develop criteria for assessing the effective utilization of borrowed funds by Ministries, departments, and agencies and establish the registrar of Government securities in accordance with Section 55 of the Public Finance Management Act. Many times, even during the campaigns, the question of accountability, clarity and transparency around our debt has been a big political issue. Unfortunately, when we come into the office, it goes quiet. Why? I ask, why?

This working committee is supposed to develop the criteria for assessing the effective utilization of borrowed funds. Sen. Faki has said that money is borrowed, and then projects are not carried out because those borrowed funds have come, and then the component, the Government of Kenya, is supposed to pay off Persons Affected by Projects (PAPs), has not paid them.

So, the borrowed funds are in the coffers, but the project is not being carried out, and Kenyans do not see the benefit of this money. This Senate is proposing that we establish a working committee to establish criteria for assessing the effective utilization of borrowed funds. This is another issue that has hurt some of our countries. People borrow money and when they bring this money, they do mega projects. Unfortunately, there is no equity in how these borrowed funds are spread across this county.

Yesterday, somebody said here on the Senate Floor that he was shocked to learn that money was borrowed. These monies were supposed to benefit one county, which was supposed to build several hospitals and health centres, while his county got zero. For borrowed funds, we need equity. In fact, when this working committee starts working, they should tell us how much money has been borrowed, for example, Tana River County has benefited from these borrowed funds. We do not need to run for President to benefit from borrowed funds, which all of us are paying taxes for. This country needs to get out of this mentality that “it is our time to eat.” We must develop equity for the rest of our country.

I have just been looking at how the money is being spread for these roads. A county like Tana River gets almost nothing, while other counties are dominating the entire money. Those monies are borrowed funds.

We are asking these working committees to be fair. They should publish the list. We should be honest in this country to heal the wounds that have created marginalized counties like Tana River. We must start being honest.

When we use the Government of Kenya to collect money, the benefits of that debt must be spread across the counties so that all of us, even when we are paying it from this generation to the next generation, we should pay to know that the US$7 billion that was borrowed, we also benefited as a county on this percentage. These statistics are not there.

We are just told the national debt is Kshs11.02 trillion. Nonetheless, you are not told how much of this Kshs11.03 trillion went to Tana River County. This country needs to start being honest. It must be fair to all of us. Otherwise, this Senate has recommended that a debt register be established that details the use of borrowed funds, including a specific breakdown of project finance through the proceeds of infrastructure bonds.

These recommendations are deep. I pray that our colleague Senators will see what I see. Timelines have been given for these recommendations to be activated and actioned. I pray that the National Treasury, the Central Bank and all those agencies that deal with finance will take the recommendation on this 2025 Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy seriously in 2025. For them, it is normal; they do not see it as a serious matter.

People sit there and put us in debt, quickly telling us how bad the situation is. For every Kshs100, we have to pay Kshs70 back for debt.

Yes, we are paying that Kshs70 shillings, but---

We are just told the national debt is Kshs11.02 trillion. Nonetheless, you are not told how much of this Kshs11.03 trillion went to Tana River County. This country needs to start being honest. It must be fair to all of us. Otherwise, this Senate has recommended that a debt register be established that details the use of borrowed funds, including a specific breakdown of project finance through the proceeds of infrastructure bonds.

These recommendations are deep. I pray that our colleague Senators will see what I see. Timelines have been given for these recommendations to be activated and actioned. I pray that the National Treasury, the Central Bank and all those agencies that deal with finance will take the recommendation on this 2025 Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy seriously in 2025. For them, it is normal; they do not see it as a serious matter.

People sit there and put us in debt, quickly telling us how bad the situation is. For every Kshs100, we have to pay Kshs70 back for debt.

Yes, we are paying that Kshs70 shillings, but---

Thank you, Sen. Mungatana. Next is Sen. (Dr.) Oburu Oginga.

any loan which does not contain a 35 per cent grant within it, was not touched by our Government. I do not know whether this policy is still there or not. However, it was one of the things which was making it difficult for many people who just wanted to make quick money to be running for the government.

The other reason is that it makes it more difficult to negotiate cheaper loans in the long term with a longer grace period of negotiations. However, some of these people, the multilateral institutions that give cheap loans, are very sensitive.

There are a lot of projects in our country which have stalled, not for any other reason, but because of activism. Sometimes, there is a lot of activism. If there is an issue coming out that the people have not been properly consulted on some issues or even the issues of what you call aesthetics--- For instance somebody can claim that the project being implemented is on his land where he buried his grandfather and has such a great attachment to his grandfather. Therefore, the project is interfering with the enjoyment of that right to have his grandfather's grave. That alone is enough to stop a project. It takes more than a year to renegotiate and get that project back.

I can give you an example. In the Sondu Miriu project, there was some activism. Some people wanted their voices to be heard. They raised it when the project was already on. The Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA) funders who were funding that project in Japan took that matter to the Japanese Parliament and said that the locals are complaining about the land. They have some attachment to this and they were not properly consulted. It took more than a year to renegotiate for them to come back. That happens with World Bank projects. I hope that some of these issues which sometimes occur are well taken care of by the implementers of these projects in our country, so that we do not get such delays in implementation. When you get delays in implementation, interest keeps on accumulating. Even for that period when the project is stopped, the interest will continue to accumulate and the Kenyan taxpayers will pay heavily for such incompetence.

We must look for alternative ways of development. We cannot concentrate on one way, which is just loans and raising taxes. We can raise taxes, we can get loans, but it might not be enough. There is a lot of money in private hands. We need to tap that money in private hands and use it for the development of our country. It is being done in America. If you go there, you find big highways. They are built by the private sector. They developed systems of Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) for a long time. It took Kenya a very long time to develop policies which were acceptable to the private sector to start utilizing the PPP principle. It started here just about 10 or so years ago. This is an area which I would advise our people to use effectively as opposed to negotiating to raise our debt levels too high.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) in infrastructure of roads, water, electricity and energy, generally, is something which is very handy, particularly in developing countries such as India. India has effectively used the PPPs and we should take that example. In Kenya, there was one which was not very transparent. Sen. Onyonka took the lead here in fighting for the rights of Kenyans to know what was happening because it was not all that transparent. Nevertheless, that is a lesson to us.

The PPP is not wrong. I do not think Sen. Onyonka was fighting against the PPP principle. He was fighting against the lack of transparency in the implementation of the project, so that people know they are getting value for their money. Those who can do the same thing are allowed to compete and participate in those projects.

I sincerely believe that if we develop this system, it will help us reduce our debt level. I also want to just commend Sen. Mungatana. He has stressed very much on keeping records and digitalising the management of debt. This is long overdue. This is something which started long ago when I was still there. I am quite surprised. There must be something somewhere on why this has not been done fully up to today. That is the way to go.

The PPP is not wrong. I do not think Sen. Onyonka was fighting against the PPP principle. He was fighting against the lack of transparency in the implementation of the project, so that people know they are getting value for their money. Those who can do the same thing are allowed to compete and participate in those projects.

I sincerely believe that if we develop this system, it will help us reduce our debt level. I also want to just commend Sen. Mungatana. He has stressed very much on keeping records and digitalising the management of debt. This is long overdue. This is something which started long ago when I was still there. I am quite surprised. There must be something somewhere on why this has not been done fully up to today. That is the way to go.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it seems that we were supposed to go to the other side where probably there will be some stones. However, I am glad you have come to me. I am certainly not a stone and I have heard about what Sen. (Dr.) Oburu has said. I am going to contribute more to what he said.

The Mid-Term Debt Management Strategy (MTDS) is fundamental to budget making. I do not know why we are losing the script as a House to the extent that we can pass a Budget Policy Statement (BPS) before we pass MTDS. The BPS gives us a focus on what the Government wants to raise in the coming financial year. It gives us a projection. For instance, the BPS for this year has given us a projection that is going to inform the Finance Bill that we want to raise about Kshs4.3 trillion.

There are gaps on where we are going to raise this money from. Therefore, where our ordinary revenue cannot help us raise that money, then it fundamentally means that we have to borrow. When we have to borrow, this is the suggestion that then comes with the MTDS.

Ordinarily, what we are passing here forms a foundation for passing the BPS. It forms a foundation for which as a House and as Parliament, we can take control over the limits with which the Government can borrow. This is not just my wisdom or the wisdom of the Committee but also of our laws.

The Public Finance Management Act (PFMA) Section 33, CAP 412A, requires that we look at the MTDS, so that we can come up with a legal framework from which the Government must think about a sustainable way of raising money. It is not only about the sustainable ways of raising money but also to look at the debt portfolio in such a way that it is going to inform what goes and what does not go into the BPS. This is in terms of the fiscal discipline of the Government.

I dare say, and I am not a prophet of doom, that if we continue this management between the MDTS and the BPS, we might wake up in the next financial year with another Gen Z protest. We are going to be forced to have a debt management strategy in the middle of a crisis, and then we are going to start talking about fiscal consolidation. This is not something that we must take lightly as a Parliament.

Through what we have proposed here from the Committee of Finance and Budget that I sit in, Parliament must come back and take control of the debt management in this country.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I look at you, you already have grey hair and you have not paid the debt that you were born and found yet, in another three months, your debt stock as a country is going to Kshs11.07 trillion.

Let me remind you that even this number is not factual. It is not a number that you can be comfortable defending. This is a number that we are given by the National Treasury to defend its proposed ratio for borrowing.

Sen. Eddy Oketch, what is the relationship between my grey hair and debt management?

dust, they must pay tax. They must pay an equal amount of money as other regions that have benefited from this debt.

We must take control. We must not leave this debt management conversation to the National Treasury. We must take full control. I am very proud of our Members of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget because they have been very engaged. You have seen them staying in this House as much as they can to contribute to this House. I have seen Sen. Ali Roba, the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget staying in this House till late hours, to give you a snippet of what is happening in this country.

I have seen the Vice-Chairperson, Sen. Tabitha Mutinda, staying in this House till late hours, so that she can give you just an idea of what we are struggling with in the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget to make sense to the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning. I have seen Sen. (Dr.) Boni Khalwale staying in this House to give you just an idea of why we must manage this debt, so that my fellow county men, people from Masangora, Isebania, Komusoko Nyamosenza and Macalder, who do not understand this burden, why it must come to them can get reprieved.

I hope that even as we pass this MDTS, the recommendations that have been forwarded by this amazing Standing Committee on Finance and Budget will not go in vain. We will not be confronted with the next MDTS that is brought to us based on our recommendations that were never adhered to. We cannot recommend that you go down on domestic borrowing; we cannot recommend that the Government goes down on fisical deficit that they have to bring down, and then the next year, we are confronted with an increased fiscal deficit and increased domestic borrowing without Parliament knowing that increased under our watch. That must stop as I support the Committee on Finance and Budget for coming up with this Report.

I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this particular Motion.

dust, they must pay tax. They must pay an equal amount of money as other regions that have benefited from this debt.

We must take control. We must not leave this debt management conversation to the National Treasury. We must take full control. I am very proud of our Members of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget because they have been very engaged. You have seen them staying in this House as much as they can to contribute to this House. I have seen Sen. Ali Roba, the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget staying in this House till late hours, to give you a snippet of what is happening in this country.

I have seen the Vice-Chairperson, Sen. Tabitha Mutinda, staying in this House till late hours, so that she can give you just an idea of what we are struggling with in the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget to make sense to the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning. I have seen Sen. (Dr.) Boni Khalwale staying in this House to give you just an idea of why we must manage this debt, so that my fellow county men, people from Masangora, Isebania, Komusoko Nyamosenza and Macalder, who do not understand this burden, why it must come to them can get reprieved.

I hope that even as we pass this MDTS, the recommendations that have been forwarded by this amazing Standing Committee on Finance and Budget will not go in vain. We will not be confronted with the next MDTS that is brought to us based on our recommendations that were never adhered to. We cannot recommend that you go down on domestic borrowing; we cannot recommend that the Government goes down on fisical deficit that they have to bring down, and then the next year, we are confronted with an increased fiscal deficit and increased domestic borrowing without Parliament knowing that increased under our watch. That must stop as I support the Committee on Finance and Budget for coming up with this Report.

I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this particular Motion.

Well spoken. Sen. Onyonka Richard, you may proceed.

thank you for noticing that we need to separate the Central Bank of Kenya and the National Treasury from the Executive. That is, in fact, one of the challenges that we are going to face as a Committee, and we are going to interrogate this.

I also want to give credit to my brother, Sen. Mungatana. Thank you, Sir. Your experience and time have enabled you to analyze these issues impassionedly. I believe that what you have discussed will make Kenya a better place.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the public debt management issue in our country is at a crisis level. The reason I say this is because, we have been looking, analyzing and discussing, what the cost of our debt. Why do we borrow so much money? Why is it that, in the last 10 years, close to 12 years, we have increased our debt by 100 per cent? When President Kibaki was the President of the Republic of Kenya, our debt was, by the time he was leaving, Kshs1.1 trillion. After that period, and you look at where we are right now, our debt is close to Kshs12 trillion.

The question that you ask when you sit in this House is, what is it that we need to do to make sure that this exercise, which I call an exercise in futility, where we are borrowing excessively, where we are borrowing domestically where the interest rates at which we are borrowing Government money is now at 12 to 16 per cent in some banks.

Allegedly, one of the loans was borrowed at 18 per cent, yet, we can borrow money globally at the cost of two per cent. We can actually reschedule Kenya's debts. All our debts can be rescheduled. We can go to the international money market and borrow at interest rates between two and four per cent, and pay out all our stock of debt, and make sure we begin afresh. These are the issues that I would want the Committee and this House to look at.

Secondly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there was a basic operating standard procedure on how we used our borrowed money. What did we do? The money would come, normally the rates at which we borrowed was at 30-70 per cent, as Sen. Eddie has said. Domestically, we would borrow at 30 per cent, because when you borrow domestically, borrowing in commercial banks becomes more expensive for the ordinary business person or Kenyan. The banks will also not want to lend to ordinary business people because of the cost of risk, the risk of where a commercial enterprise might borrow money and not deliver. So, commercial banks will prefer to trade in bills, bonds, and stocks.

The Government is very comfortable with that because of what my brother, Sen. Eddy, and many other leaders here have talked about. When you go and negotiate with a commercial bank and you are borrowing a trillion shillings, and this commercial bank is actually giving you this money at a certain percentage, information and data gets to us where people in the Government will go and negotiate with some of these commercial banks, and they will even enable these commercial banks, after they have borrowed money for the Government, to allow the commercial bank to do overnight lending, where interest rates are undone. We never discussed these issues openly until recently when Sen. Okiya Omtatah started discussing them. Why do we borrow?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we borrow because sometimes our budget has gaps. Previously, the Kenyan Government position, if you look at when Prof. George Saitoti was the Minister for Finance, come up to President Kibaki and move on, you will realize

that we were borrowing when we would need a stopgap measure where we would borrow most probably 10 or five percent, or whatever the balance was, and then our budget would be balanced, and we would keep on moving as the economy was growing.

Now, we borrow for big projects. We borrow for those projects where billions and billions, not Kenyan shillings, but billions and billions of American Dollars are borrowed. As a result, the money that was supposed to deal with the basic issues of our governance and existence, for instance, the health sector, education, agriculture, and the very basic sectors of our economy that are to deliver for the Kenyan public, is taken to do big-time projects because that is where we get our kickbacks. That is where we generate our revenue by arguing and saying, “No, you do not have to spend any money in farming. Look for something big that you can do. That is where the money is shared and that is where we really do not have to work very hard about this because even if we borrow, we will be able to pay this money anyway.”

The problem is, soon, we are not going to be able to pay this money because we are at 68 percent. If by next year we are going to borrow another Kshs1.2 trillion like we did last year, the reality is soon we are going to be at 90 percent and then after that Kenya will just become like Thailand. We will not pay our debts back or pay salaries. The economy will just become an economy. It will become a supermarket. Essentially, what does a supermarket do? We become consumers. Then you do not have to worry about agricultural development and growth of the health sector.

In fact, we, as a people, will begin thinking about whether to take our patients to Rwanda, which is offering their health facilities better than we are, or are we going to educate our children in Rwanda where the children are going to school achieving the grades they want. The educational sector is actually teaching mathematics, yet in our country, we are now saying we do not even have to allow kids to learn maths.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to make a passionate plea to my colleagues in this House. The responsibility of fixing the mess we are in falls particularly on this House. Our country has a problem. We are not able to transform this country from a low- level, middle, low-income developing country into a mid-level, upper-level developing country. We are slowly going back to where we used to be, an underdeveloped country, a country that depends on its revenues so that it can govern itself on a daily basis. We are not going to be a country that invests on those sectors that are going to change the livelihoods of our people. We are not a country that is willing to tackle the issues that are important.

We must make the Central Bank of Kenya to be independent. We must make the National Treasury to become advisory, so that its responsibility is to advise the President on what the economic issues are on a micro and macro basis. What do we do with the interest rates? What are we doing with investments and savings? Why is investment in Kenya becoming a problem? Why are companies moving out? Once companies move out of your country to go and invest somewhere else, then you have less of your people getting jobs and generating revenue for themselves, and you have less of the Government taking taxes, and you cannot continue taxing people indefinitely.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, many of my colleagues have brought wonderful issues in this place. In this House, I am so happy with what is being discussed. We must ensure

that the public debt management system is linked to the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS), as well as the own-source revenue systems.

How can you have a financial platform in your country that deliberately has been cut into sections, bits and pieces because it makes it easier for those who are cutting deals and making money out of these state resources to do it without it looking seamless, yet in reality, we are not seamlessly managing our debt and revenue, instead, we are seamlessly managing the stealing of those revenues and the resources?

that the public debt management system is linked to the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS), as well as the own-source revenue systems.

How can you have a financial platform in your country that deliberately has been cut into sections, bits and pieces because it makes it easier for those who are cutting deals and making money out of these state resources to do it without it looking seamless, yet in reality, we are not seamlessly managing our debt and revenue, instead, we are seamlessly managing the stealing of those revenues and the resources?

For us to fix our country, yes, this House can come up with recommendations but unless we have structures and institutions that are going to be the defence mechanism we use to deter our bad behaviour, we will not go anywhere. Why? Sen. Omtatah, it has been nearly a week that we have not seen a scandal but you will notice every single time in our Republic, there is scandal after scandal after scandal about public money.

Madam Temporary Speaker, can we stop the abuse, misuse and wastage of public funds, so that we serve the Kenyan public with the dignity they deserve and so that we can leave a country that is better than we found it. My worry is, many of us may not see the contradiction of where we are. We are a country that has got a budget that can run between six to seven countries within the Eastern and Central African region. However, if you take the population we have of 50 million, the population of the six or seven countries I am mentioning is 300 million. How come we are not able to use the resources that we have to fix the mess we are in? That is why I keep saying, we do not need to borrow. The money we have is enough. Why is the money not enough? We keep on having ghost workers and we employ teachers, we do not know who owns them.

For us to fix our country, yes, this House can come up with recommendations but unless we have structures and institutions that are going to be the defence mechanism we use to deter our bad behaviour, we will not go anywhere. Why? Sen. Omtatah, it has been nearly a week that we have not seen a scandal but you will notice every single time in our Republic, there is scandal after scandal after scandal about public money.

Madam Temporary Speaker, can we stop the abuse, misuse and wastage of public funds, so that we serve the Kenyan public with the dignity they deserve and so that we can leave a country that is better than we found it. My worry is, many of us may not see the contradiction of where we are. We are a country that has got a budget that can run between six to seven countries within the Eastern and Central African region. However, if you take the population we have of 50 million, the population of the six or seven countries I am mentioning is 300 million. How come we are not able to use the resources that we have to fix the mess we are in? That is why I keep saying, we do not need to borrow. The money we have is enough. Why is the money not enough? We keep on having ghost workers and we employ teachers, we do not know who owns them.

Time is up, Senator. Okay, half a minute, you finished the sentence.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I just wanted to say that let us make sure there we have an open, transparent government, where we are accountable to each other, where we manage the resources of our country with prudence and respect and Kenyans will be always happy that we were in this House. I hope that this House, and the Committee on Finance and Budget will stand up for the Kenyans.

Madam Temporary Speaker, with those remarks, I second the Motion.

Thank you, Senator. Sen. Okoiti Andrew Omtatah, Busia County.

defaults that they used to have where Congress approved every debt. Now, we are trying to peg our debt on GDP.

First of all, it does not make common sense to peg our debt on GDP. We know that GDP is the totality of a state's productivity as estimated per year. Yet you repay debt; not from your percentage of GDP, but from your taxes. Debt must be tied to the capacity to raise taxes to pay it. This is why in Article 220 of the Constitution, there is a requirement - Article 220(1)(c) states that-

“Budgets of the national and county governments shall contain-

defaults that they used to have where Congress approved every debt. Now, we are trying to peg our debt on GDP.

First of all, it does not make common sense to peg our debt on GDP. We know that GDP is the totality of a state's productivity as estimated per year. Yet you repay debt; not from your percentage of GDP, but from your taxes. Debt must be tied to the capacity to raise taxes to pay it. This is why in Article 220 of the Constitution, there is a requirement - Article 220(1)(c) states that-

“Budgets of the national and county governments shall contain-

Thank you, Sen. Okiya Omtatah.

Proceed, Sen. Methu from Nyandarua County.

would also want to put to test part of the campaign promises by President William Ruto. Allow me to quote him. He said-

“Watu wamekula pesa hii Kenya. Watu wamekuwa wanakopa pesa na kupeleka mahali pengine. Tukichukua hii serikali, hatutakuwa tunakopa. Serikali yetu tutaweka sawasawa na tutaokota kodi.”

We need to put that statement to test. In his first year, the former President, Hon. Uhuru Kenyatta had accumulated a debt of Kshs437 billion since he was sworn in in September, 2013 to September, 2014. What about our ‘angel’ who was supposed to correct that problem? President William Ruto had accumulated a debt of Kshs1.2 trillion in his first year. Since we are not borrowing this money for any other people, but the people of Kenya, we need to ask ourselves this question. Is it that the quality of life of the people of Kenya has improved since President William Ruto came to power?

Former President Uhuru Kenyatta with a debt of Kshs437 billion in his first year ensured our secondary school education was affordable and almost free. We need to then put to test the new administration of President William Ruto. Out of the Kshs1.2 trillion, how much has gone to making the lives of the people of Kenya better in his first one year in office?

We must all appreciate that in his first year of his presidency, taxes increased. He prevailed upon us to be very patriotic, press the pay slips and give as much as we could, so that we could support the national Government to stop borrowing. This was to ensure that we can develop and grow our own country using our own money. He said that if we are able to spare a shilling or two from our pay slip and pay taxes, then we would have a balanced budget.

Three years later, our deficit in our budget is now running to trillions of money. It is the first time that we are seeing this kind of a deficit in a national budget. Even if the President continue borrowing, the quality of the life of the people of Kenya will never get better. If you were to put that statement to test, one board of gypsum in 2022 when William Ruto became President was costing Kshs630. Three years into his presidency, it is costing more than Kshs1,000.

University education, by the time he became President of this Republic, it was at least Kshs44,000 per student every academic year. In his new University Funding Model, students are paying up to Kshs240,000 for one student in one academic year. He has made education extremely expensive.

It has become extremely difficult to be a Kenyan. That is why you hear every time people saying that they hold the freedom of their payslips because they cannot feel the impact of the taxes they are paying to this Government. They are not getting quality services from this Government. The general expectation of the people of Kenya is that we are supposed to get better services when our national budgets are growing.

When I was first elected as a Member of Parliament here, I was paying about Kshs2,700 for health insurance. However, I am paying Kshs37,000 according to the new arrangement that was brought by President William Ruto. If indeed I were to access healthcare and I do not need to spend my own money again, I would feel that it was worth it. However, what has happened, our health system has collapsed and we all know

it. Every time we have harambees to offset medical expenses of our people. Our people are suffering in the villages. We are paying more, but we continue to suffer more. What has become of this country? Why is President William Ruto running down this country? We do not have any other country.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to quickly run to one person who gave his memoranda to this particular committee. He said that we should try and reduce Government wastage or improve on the prudence in the way we use our national resources.

When President William Ruto came, he said that we are cutting on all wastage in Government. We were told that austerity measures are setting in. In Parliament here, we were told that we have to reduce our foreign and domestic travel. This is happening in Parliament. The way we travel now is not the same way we used to travel when we came in here. However, this does not happen with the Executive. Why is it that the State House budget keeps growing every financial year? It is not that he has new members of staff. It is not that he has new services or he is getting more guests so that his hospitality budget is increased. What was it in the State House that warranted repair? Was the roof leaking in State House that he had to spend billions of monies in a country where people are suffering on very basic issues like health? He had the money to ensure that he could repair almost all state lodges around the Republic. How many days can he sleep in even within one financial year? Why can he not do them progressively? Why would he then not do the State House in Nairobi and leave the rest and do them progressively?

He is renovating the State lodges in in Nyeri, Bungoma, Nakuru and Mombasa. I do not understand the urgency of renovating all these State lodges. Why does he want to live like a king when the rest of Kenyans are suffering? They are sleeping hungry. What joy does he gain in having the best palatial State House in the Africa? He says that he wants the State House of Kenya to be at the level of the White House of the United States. Is he leading people who have as much quality of life as the people of the United States? Why run down the health system in Kenya and then live like a king?

Madam Temporary Speaker, as we work on reducing Government wastage, I would like my colleagues to tell me why it is important that for every one project that has been commissioned, the President has to commission it five times. A lot of money was spent when the President was in Nairobi. You saw the kind of entourage when he was commissioning projects in Nairobi. Why was it extremely important for him to move in entourages of 50 Sport Utility Vehicles (SUVs), and mobilize people to come and clap for him?

would also want to put to test part of the campaign promises by President William Ruto. Allow me to quote him. He said-

“Watu wamekula pesa hii Kenya. Watu wamekuwa wanakopa pesa na kupeleka mahali pengine. Tukichukua hii serikali, hatutakuwa tunakopa. Serikali yetu tutaweka sawasawa na tutaokota kodi.”

We need to put that statement to test. In his first year, the former President, Hon. Uhuru Kenyatta had accumulated a debt of Kshs437 billion since he was sworn in in September, 2013 to September, 2014. What about our ‘angel’ who was supposed to correct that problem? President William Ruto had accumulated a debt of Kshs1.2 trillion in his first year. Since we are not borrowing this money for any other people, but the people of Kenya, we need to ask ourselves this question. Is it that the quality of life of the people of Kenya has improved since President William Ruto came to power?

Former President Uhuru Kenyatta with a debt of Kshs437 billion in his first year ensured our secondary school education was affordable and almost free. We need to then put to test the new administration of President William Ruto. Out of the Kshs1.2 trillion, how much has gone to making the lives of the people of Kenya better in his first one year in office?

We must all appreciate that in his first year of his presidency, taxes increased. He prevailed upon us to be very patriotic, press the pay slips and give as much as we could, so that we could support the national Government to stop borrowing. This was to ensure that we can develop and grow our own country using our own money. He said that if we are able to spare a shilling or two from our pay slip and pay taxes, then we would have a balanced budget.

Three years later, our deficit in our budget is now running to trillions of money. It is the first time that we are seeing this kind of a deficit in a national budget. Even if the President continue borrowing, the quality of the life of the people of Kenya will never get better. If you were to put that statement to test, one board of gypsum in 2022 when William Ruto became President was costing Kshs630. Three years into his presidency, it is costing more than Kshs1,000.

University education, by the time he became President of this Republic, it was at least Kshs44,000 per student every academic year. In his new University Funding Model, students are paying up to Kshs240,000 for one student in one academic year. He has made education extremely expensive.

It has become extremely difficult to be a Kenyan. That is why you hear every time people saying that they hold the freedom of their payslips because they cannot feel the impact of the taxes they are paying to this Government. They are not getting quality services from this Government. The general expectation of the people of Kenya is that we are supposed to get better services when our national budgets are growing.

When I was first elected as a Member of Parliament here, I was paying about Kshs2,700 for health insurance. However, I am paying Kshs37,000 according to the new arrangement that was brought by President William Ruto. If indeed I were to access healthcare and I do not need to spend my own money again, I would feel that it was worth it. However, what has happened, our health system has collapsed and we all know

it. Every time we have harambees to offset medical expenses of our people. Our people are suffering in the villages. We are paying more, but we continue to suffer more. What has become of this country? Why is President William Ruto running down this country? We do not have any other country.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to quickly run to one person who gave his memoranda to this particular committee. He said that we should try and reduce Government wastage or improve on the prudence in the way we use our national resources.

When President William Ruto came, he said that we are cutting on all wastage in Government. We were told that austerity measures are setting in. In Parliament here, we were told that we have to reduce our foreign and domestic travel. This is happening in Parliament. The way we travel now is not the same way we used to travel when we came in here. However, this does not happen with the Executive. Why is it that the State House budget keeps growing every financial year? It is not that he has new members of staff. It is not that he has new services or he is getting more guests so that his hospitality budget is increased. What was it in the State House that warranted repair? Was the roof leaking in State House that he had to spend billions of monies in a country where people are suffering on very basic issues like health? He had the money to ensure that he could repair almost all state lodges around the Republic. How many days can he sleep in even within one financial year? Why can he not do them progressively? Why would he then not do the State House in Nairobi and leave the rest and do them progressively?

He is renovating the State lodges in in Nyeri, Bungoma, Nakuru and Mombasa. I do not understand the urgency of renovating all these State lodges. Why does he want to live like a king when the rest of Kenyans are suffering? They are sleeping hungry. What joy does he gain in having the best palatial State House in the Africa? He says that he wants the State House of Kenya to be at the level of the White House of the United States. Is he leading people who have as much quality of life as the people of the United States? Why run down the health system in Kenya and then live like a king?

Madam Temporary Speaker, as we work on reducing Government wastage, I would like my colleagues to tell me why it is important that for every one project that has been commissioned, the President has to commission it five times. A lot of money was spent when the President was in Nairobi. You saw the kind of entourage when he was commissioning projects in Nairobi. Why was it extremely important for him to move in entourages of 50 Sport Utility Vehicles (SUVs), and mobilize people to come and clap for him?

Hon. Sen. Methu, I know you have hearty contributions towards this Motion, but I would like to remind you of the provisions of the Standing Order No.101 on the content of speech because you are contributing to a report on debt management. However, the way your contributions are going, you are debating around the person and the conduct of the President for which you need to move a specific Motion.

So, you should confine yourself to the relevance of the report that you are contributing to. If the report in any manner points to the fact that it is the President that is doing the budgets and not the National Treasury, then you would move towards the line

I am on page 30. It was the submission that was made by Mr. Aronyo Kevin. It is just a broad term. One of the things that he proposed is reduction of Government wastage. In my argument, I am trying to express my disappointment in terms of public wastage. I am not discussing the conduct of the President. President William Ruto is not State House. In fact, he is not the Accounting Officer of State House. The Accounting Officer of State House is the Controller---

Sen. Methu, yes, that is why I have guided you understanding Order No.101. On page 30 of the report, I have not seen the mention of the President in any of those paragraphs.

I have not mentioned him in any of my arguments.

Do you need a review? You mentioned him several times. Please confine yourself to the Report here.

Okay. I know it is a bit uncomfortable, but you have to bear with things as they are, so that we move quickly.

Madam Temporary Speaker, that good gentleman made that particular observation. That, we need to ensure that we reduce Government wastage. In my opinion, it is not the priority of the people of Kenya now to have the best State House in the region. It may look beautiful. It is elegant and excellent. However, does it reflect the lives of the people of Kenya? Is it the same as to the quality of life of the people of Kenya?

There is a recommendation that has been made by the committee that I am agreeing with. The automation of the withdrawal of the debt service payment from the Consolidated Fund. The national debt has become an extremely opaque thing. You cannot tell how much has been paid and within what time.

For the pending bills in our counties, you will have a view because they are managed through the IFMIS. Therefore, you can tell that this was the date it was accrued and this is what has been done to it. Why not have the same, so that we can follow and understand how our national debt is flowing? We can then know how exactly this money that has been taken as national debt has been used.

I have not mentioned him in any of my arguments.

Do you need a review? You mentioned him several times. Please confine yourself to the Report here.

Okay. I know it is a bit uncomfortable, but you have to bear with things as they are, so that we move quickly.

Madam Temporary Speaker, that good gentleman made that particular observation. That, we need to ensure that we reduce Government wastage. In my opinion, it is not the priority of the people of Kenya now to have the best State House in the region. It may look beautiful. It is elegant and excellent. However, does it reflect the lives of the people of Kenya? Is it the same as to the quality of life of the people of Kenya?

There is a recommendation that has been made by the committee that I am agreeing with. The automation of the withdrawal of the debt service payment from the Consolidated Fund. The national debt has become an extremely opaque thing. You cannot tell how much has been paid and within what time.

For the pending bills in our counties, you will have a view because they are managed through the IFMIS. Therefore, you can tell that this was the date it was accrued and this is what has been done to it. Why not have the same, so that we can follow and understand how our national debt is flowing? We can then know how exactly this money that has been taken as national debt has been used.

Sen. Eddy, before we get to

Sen. Methu is trying to be adverse in his conversation. I do not have a problem with him pinpointing the projects that have been launched here and there. However, this needs a substantive discussion because it is not relevant to the debt management strategy. Most importantly, he mentioned numbers and projects that are being launched, not in my area, but I have an interest in that conversation.

Nevertheless, the Standing Orders require a substantive Motion. Therefore, I wish that you would rule him out of order until he brings a substantive Motion to this conversation. I thank you.

Let me dispense with this point of order first. Sen. Eddy already made a point of order. I will dispense with it first.

Sen. Methu, you have heard the issue raised by Sen. Eddy's point of order. I have guided you and given you direction on it. Do not proceed to that adverse mention of the person of the presidency until you bring a substantive Motion and give three days' notice. So that we do not waste time, I will give you a chance to finish your submissions and then we will proceed.

What is your point of order, Sen. Methu? Sorry, Senator Karungo Thang’wa. You look the same lately. You walk too closely. So, you really do look like real brothers.

Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. It will never cease to amaze me that the Senator of Migori is standing to defend President William Ruto on floor of this House.

Sen. Thang’wa, what is your point of order? Under which Standing Order---

Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.105 on the responsibility of a statement of facts. It is sad, and I was hoping you could rule the Senator of Migori out of order.

Sen. Eddy, please maintain your silence. The Speaker is in charge. We will deal with it. Please maintain your silence, so that he can be heard. He is on his feet. Maintain your calm and cool.

We are interfering with Sen. Methu's debates. The Standing Orders are clear. If there is an issue any Senator would want to be informed about or mentioned, there is a request for a statement. We cannot have the Senator of Migori asking the Senator of Nyandarua to tell him what the President is supposed to have done in Migori County. It is the prerogative or mandate of the Senator here to request a statement on the Floor of the House on programmes being launched by the President in other counties and not launching them in Migori County.” However, do not defend the President here when Sen. Methu says that he has been launching programmes. Who is not seeing? They are not free.

Money is being used. People are being carjacked, and their bags are taken and stolen. Rule him out of order, so that we can give the Senator an opportunity because he is discussing the Medium-Term Strategy Paper. We must understand why the Government says there is no money yet there is so much misuse that we are telling our

Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.105 on the responsibility of a statement of facts. It is sad, and I was hoping you could rule the Senator of Migori out of order.

Sen. Eddy, please maintain your silence. The Speaker is in charge. We will deal with it. Please maintain your silence, so that he can be heard. He is on his feet. Maintain your calm and cool.

We are interfering with Sen. Methu's debates. The Standing Orders are clear. If there is an issue any Senator would want to be informed about or mentioned, there is a request for a statement. We cannot have the Senator of Migori asking the Senator of Nyandarua to tell him what the President is supposed to have done in Migori County. It is the prerogative or mandate of the Senator here to request a statement on the Floor of the House on programmes being launched by the President in other counties and not launching them in Migori County.” However, do not defend the President here when Sen. Methu says that he has been launching programmes. Who is not seeing? They are not free.

Money is being used. People are being carjacked, and their bags are taken and stolen. Rule him out of order, so that we can give the Senator an opportunity because he is discussing the Medium-Term Strategy Paper. We must understand why the Government says there is no money yet there is so much misuse that we are telling our

Sen. Methu, I guided you that that issue is dispensed with.

I am a well guided, Madam Temporary Speaker.

If you have any other issue beyond that, proceed so that your minutes can be spent.

I know why I am being disrupted, but I will still say what I want to say. We cannot keep saying that we borrow because we do not have enough. The reason we keep borrowing is because we, as a country, assume that we do not have enough.

Madam Temporary Speaker, now I am on the narrow path of not mentioning anybody. Tell me how a country which borrows money, because we do not have, can have a surplus to give students one million chapatis in a day? If you were to give it a price, for example, of Kshs20 per chapatti, that would make it Kshs20 million a day. In a week, if they were to go to school for five days, that would make it Kshs100 million a week. If they were to be there for a month, that would make it Kshs400 million. If you were to have them for a year, it would be Kshs1.2 billion. I do not know if that is correct.

If we have money for such, why are we borrowing? What justification do we have to continue borrowing when we are plundering the same resources? The people of Kenya would want to feel and see what the money is doing.

Borrowing is easy. However, the biggest burden is repayment which is placed on the people of Kenya. It is not President William Ruto or we in Government who repay the loans. The burden of repayment of our national debt is specifically on the shoulders of the people of Kenya. We should not spend money anyhow and expect the people of Kenya to continue clapping for us. The State is using millions of Shillings to mock its own citizens. A person in a village in Migori will see SUVs of the state going to launch one small project. I think we are mocking the people of Kenya. This is not what the people of Kenya expected from the leadership and regime that is ruling us now.

I am a well guided, Madam Temporary Speaker.

If you have any other issue beyond that, proceed so that your minutes can be spent.

I know why I am being disrupted, but I will still say what I want to say. We cannot keep saying that we borrow because we do not have enough. The reason we keep borrowing is because we, as a country, assume that we do not have enough.

Madam Temporary Speaker, now I am on the narrow path of not mentioning anybody. Tell me how a country which borrows money, because we do not have, can have a surplus to give students one million chapatis in a day? If you were to give it a price, for example, of Kshs20 per chapatti, that would make it Kshs20 million a day. In a week, if they were to go to school for five days, that would make it Kshs100 million a week. If they were to be there for a month, that would make it Kshs400 million. If you were to have them for a year, it would be Kshs1.2 billion. I do not know if that is correct.

If we have money for such, why are we borrowing? What justification do we have to continue borrowing when we are plundering the same resources? The people of Kenya would want to feel and see what the money is doing.

Borrowing is easy. However, the biggest burden is repayment which is placed on the people of Kenya. It is not President William Ruto or we in Government who repay the loans. The burden of repayment of our national debt is specifically on the shoulders of the people of Kenya. We should not spend money anyhow and expect the people of Kenya to continue clapping for us. The State is using millions of Shillings to mock its own citizens. A person in a village in Migori will see SUVs of the state going to launch one small project. I think we are mocking the people of Kenya. This is not what the people of Kenya expected from the leadership and regime that is ruling us now.

That is granted.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I do not want to repeat myself. I appreciate all colleagues who have contributed to the MTDS that we embarked on as a committee. I thank my colleagues, starting with my Chairperson then my very good friend, Sen. Eddy, for the high commitment and the rest of my colleagues as well.

Madam Temporary Speaker, just to mention a few things. As a country, we sometimes go wrong by politicizing everything. The matter before us is very critical. Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy (MTDS) is a matter that every year as a House we prosecute. It is so sad at times when we do not see the bigger picture. These issues of debt are not personal, but are going to affect our future generations if we, as leaders, do not address them. It is our right to question expenditure. Let us tell each other the truth that one of our key responsibilities is oversight as MPs. The National Assembly oversights the national Government and the Senate oversights the counties.

Certainly, when we talk about these debts that are in place, it is our responsibility to get the audit reports, analyze them and give correct recommendations. Mwananchi has vested that mandate in us. The other time the President proposed a committee and due to politics was rejected. I am happy that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has taken up and is ensuring that the Auditor-General can give both Houses of Parliament, a report on the level of debts, where we are with the debts on repayment and duration. Currently we are at 65 per cent debt of the PFM Act required mandate of 55 per cent of the GDP.

These are concerns that are all for us. It should not be deviated to individuals, then we lose the focus on how as a House, we should play our role. We should be focusing on ensuring that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning shows these Houses how it will ensure that it comes from 65 per cent to the 55 per cent which is within the PFM Act, as that is what is currently in law. As a House and a committee, we made recommendations, especially when it comes to the IFMIS. It should be a system that can ensure all debts such the pending bills are paid within the recommended time. We talked as a committee and said that by 31st May, 2025, any debt should automatically be paid using the Consolidated Fund, among many others.

Madam Temporary Speaker, because time does not allow, I thank all the stakeholders and the secretariat who have been able to support us.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I can see that we are behind time. I hope you will give me extra two minutes.

That is granted.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I do not want to repeat myself. I appreciate all colleagues who have contributed to the MTDS that we embarked on as a committee. I thank my colleagues, starting with my Chairperson then my very good friend, Sen. Eddy, for the high commitment and the rest of my colleagues as well.

Madam Temporary Speaker, just to mention a few things. As a country, we sometimes go wrong by politicizing everything. The matter before us is very critical. Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy (MTDS) is a matter that every year as a House we prosecute. It is so sad at times when we do not see the bigger picture. These issues of debt are not personal, but are going to affect our future generations if we, as leaders, do not address them. It is our right to question expenditure. Let us tell each other the truth that one of our key responsibilities is oversight as MPs. The National Assembly oversights the national Government and the Senate oversights the counties.

Certainly, when we talk about these debts that are in place, it is our responsibility to get the audit reports, analyze them and give correct recommendations. Mwananchi has vested that mandate in us. The other time the President proposed a committee and due to politics was rejected. I am happy that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has taken up and is ensuring that the Auditor-General can give both Houses of Parliament, a report on the level of debts, where we are with the debts on repayment and duration. Currently we are at 65 per cent debt of the PFM Act required mandate of 55 per cent of the GDP.

These are concerns that are all for us. It should not be deviated to individuals, then we lose the focus on how as a House, we should play our role. We should be focusing on ensuring that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning shows these Houses how it will ensure that it comes from 65 per cent to the 55 per cent which is within the PFM Act, as that is what is currently in law. As a House and a committee, we made recommendations, especially when it comes to the IFMIS. It should be a system that can ensure all debts such the pending bills are paid within the recommended time. We talked as a committee and said that by 31st May, 2025, any debt should automatically be paid using the Consolidated Fund, among many others.

Madam Temporary Speaker, because time does not allow, I thank all the stakeholders and the secretariat who have been able to support us.

With those many remarks, I beg to reply. Since we do not have the numbers, I request that you defer putting of the question to tomorrow as per Standing Order No.66

Thank you, hon. Senator. The putting of the Question is deferred to the next sitting of this House, which is tomorrow.

Hon. Senators, it is now 6. 43