Wednesday, 14th November 2018

We may start.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:

The Reports of the Auditor General and the Financial Statements in respect of the following institutions for the year that ended 30th June 2017 and the certificate therein:

The Chairperson, the Departmental Committee on Health or the Vice Chairperson.

Very well. I take it that they are not interested in tabling their Report. I thought this Report was ready. Hon. Nyikal mentioned to me that this Report is ready and I approved it yesterday. Well, the leadership is such that they do not know when the House sits. Hon. Nyikal, you may need to impress upon the leadership of your Committee that the House sits at 2.30 p.m. so that they do not come at 4.30 p.m. Well, tabling of the Report is deferred to tomorrow.

The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning, Hon. Limo.

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Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the House:

The Report the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning on its consideration of the Capital Markets (Amendment) Bill, 2018.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Was there a Report by the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security that I approved yesterday? It was tabled in the morning. Very well.

Next Order.

They say if you go to equity, equity does not help the indolent. If you sit on your rights, you cannot claim that you want to go to equity; you have been sitting on your rights. Let us go to Questions.

The House sits at 2.30 p.m. not at 2.40 p.m. The first Question is by the Member for Starehe.

Hon. Members, Hon. John Mbadi will tell you there is an update on Questions and all the business pending before the House. I know how many Questions are pending. When a Member desires to ask a Question and decides to do other things in the villages… This is the Member for Starehe, he would be in the back streets. The Member is absent, so the Question is dropped. The Question should not be re-submitted until next Session.

Hon. Speaker…

You can only do something on somebody’s behalf with written permission from them. It is not just because you may smile and assume that because your teeth look very bright, the Speaker will allow. Even if you are nominee 001, you will not be allowed.

The next Question is by the Member for West Mugirango, Hon. Vincent Kemosi Mogaka.

Question 156/2018

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, I wish to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Energy the following Question:

Very well, the Question is directed to the Departmental Committee on Energy to prioritise.

The next Question is by the Nominated Member, Hon. Godfrey Osotsi. Question No. 158/2018

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I wish to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Information, Communication and Technology Question No. 158/2018.

Very well, the Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on ICT to prioritise.

Let me just tell the Member for Starehe who is bending here that he is wasting his time. I am not in the group that changes their mind that easily. That matter is over. That is what I encourage Committee chairs to do. Be firm, once you make a decision, it is over. The Question was dropped and that matter is dead.

Leader of the Minority Party, what is the issue?

I totally agree with you, but I just want to draw from tradition when we used to have Question Time and seek your indulgence under Standing Order No. 1. We used to go through the Questions then you would come back one more time to allow Members who probably, for some reason were delayed, to ask Questions. I am seeking your indulgence bearing in mind that for a Member to bring a Question, it must be something that is really hurting the constituents. I am just pleading with you, I know there is no compulsion that you have to do it, but I am just drawing from tradition, what I used to see then. It is a while since we had that.

Fortunately, those to respond then were in the House. Now they are not in the House and we do not want to hold the House because of people who decide to do other things instead of coming to the House. So, if a Member is not present when his Question is called out once or twice, then it is dropped and the matter is over. May be what he was doing was more important than the Question. So, you make a choice. The next Question is by the Member for Kirinyaga Central, Hon. John Munene Wambugu.

Question No.159/2018

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Thank you, Hon. Speaker, my Question is directed to the Cabinet Secretary for Agriculture and Livestock.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to ask Question No. 163/2018 which I raise to the Cabinet Secretary for Sports and Heritage.

That is a very interesting Question. I would want to know what steps the Ministry is taking particularly on the issues of good governance, courtship and marriage. I will be keen to receive the answer. Prof. Oduol, we must thank you for reminding us that this is an important aspect of our Constitution.

Hon. T. J. Kajwang’ is particularly happy about the courtship on the measures taken to identify good methods, marriage and courtship, more particularly indigenous systems. It is very important. It is part of the constitutional requirements under the Bill of Rights.

Next Order! Hon. Washiali, what is your point of order?

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On a point of order, Hon. Speaker. Please protect me from my boss.

No, you do not need protection.

He is interrupting me. I have been keenly listening to the way we ask Questions in this House. Hon. Speaker, I just want to find out from you, with your permission, if there is any logic for a Member who sits in a Committee that oversees a certain Cabinet Secretary to ask him or her, a Question. I do not know whether I am making sense.

For example, I am a Member of the Departmental Committee of Environment and Natural Resources or Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock, then, I ask a Question as a Member of this House yet, I have an opportunity to meet the Cabinet Secretary in charge of Agriculture in many other forums.

There is a lot of logic. You have given an example that one can be a Member of the Departmental Committee of Environment and Natural Resources or Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock, but you do not oversee the Cabinet Secretary about the roads in your village. Oversight is not just about things in the village. When the Cabinet Secretary comes before your Committee he or she does not come there to discuss the roads in your constituency only. The Cabinet Secretary appears before the Committee maybe to discuss Bills or Petitions. We cannot deny a Member of a Committee the right to ask a Question to a Cabinet Secretary merely because the Member might…What if the Cabinet Secretary does not see that Member when he appears before the Committee? The only recourse the Member has is to ask a Question so that the Cabinet Secretary who has been avoiding him will now have no option but to appear and face that Member head on before the Committee. I think it is proper.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. John Mbadi, you have a point of order?

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker. It is just on the same because when Cabinet Secretaries appear, they come for specific issues. The letter that invites them is on specific issues. You cannot digress and start discussing your village issues with a Cabinet Secretary who has come on other issues. So, it is important that any Member can ask a Question anytime to the Cabinet Secretary so that it is addressed specifically. It is also good to have recorded documents to demonstrate that there was a commitment. When we walk out in the corridors and he promises me a 100 kilometers of tarmac road, I do not have a way of following-up that matter.

That is absolutely true. Next Order!

The Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:

THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 30 (3) (b) , this House resolves to hold Morning Sittings on the following days commencing at 9.30 am for purposes of considering priority business-

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. It is, indeed, true that we sat as the HBC and realised that we have quite a number of Bills which are very urgent like the National Youth Service Bill…

Hon. Members, I think it is only fair because you will make a decision on this matter. It is good to listen so that you can make a decision from information and knowledge.

We realised in the HBC that we have a number of Bills, Reports and other matters that were very important. We want to transact them before we go on recess on 6th December and this is going to be a long recess of two months. If you look at Order No.9, it is the National Youth Service Bill which will be read First Time. It is very critical in terms of reforming the NYS to help alleviate the problem of unemployment in this country.

There is the Parliamentary Service Commission Bill which again has been with us from

Member for Bura!

Put the Question.

Is it the desire of the House that I put the Question?

Yes.

Of course, I do not want to remind you about the famous quote by Speaker Lenthall in 1642. I am sure you know it now. I put the Question.

Hon. Members it, therefore, means that starting tomorrow for the next three Thursdays, there will be morning sittings. This is not to say that Committees which had scheduled business will not sit. The Chamber starts at 9.30 a.m. I am sure, by practice, most Committees start their sittings the hour of 10.00 a.m. and sometimes 11.00 a.m. and sometimes 10.30 a.m. So, you can see there is still room for Members to participate here in the plenary before they go to the Committees. This is for everybody’s information even those who are not present to know that starting tomorrow, there will be morning sittings up to and including 29th of this month.

Next Order!

Next Order!

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Order, Hon. Members! Hon. Members, we are in the Committee of the whole House to consider the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 12 of 2018) .

Before we commence, let us have the Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I think you need to make it very clear that people should go and get the Order Paper. They must have the Bill. This is because there is a culture of always asking you which page you are. All of us here are Members of Parliament. Get the Order Paper and follow from the beginning so that we move smoothly.

Hon. Members, having listened to the Leader of the Majority Party, I stress on the number of the Bill for you to be able to get the right Bill. This is the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 12 of 2018) .

Let us have the Mover, Hon. William Cheptumo, to move his amendment on Section 2.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Judicature Act by –

No one wants to contribute to this. I move to put the Question.

The Judicature Act, Cap. 8, Section 3, Paragraphs 1 and 2

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Judicature Act by –

Yes, Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support this amendment because what it is doing is to make sure that the new structure in terms of the High Court is actually mainstreamed with the Act. So, I support.

Order, Hon. Members! Order, Leader of the Majority Party and Hon. Kajwang’. Thank you.

There is an amendment by Hon. Cheptumo. Order! We must be led on the section that we are amending.

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We are amending Section 12. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Oaths and Statutory Declarations Act by deleting the words “and a Deputy Registrar” in the proposed amendment to Section 12 and substituting therefor the words “a Deputy Registrar, a Deputy Registrar of the Environment and Land Court and a Deputy Registrar of the Employment and Labour Relations Court.”

The rationale for this proposed amendment is that the Committee was satisfied that the Deputy Registrar of the Employment and Land Labour Relations Court and the Environmental and Labour Relations Court, who have similar ranking as Deputy Registrars of the High Court, also administer oaths hence the law be amended to reflect this position. This is just to realign the position.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out,

put and agreed to)

The Mover should move the amendments to Section 11 (4) . Leader of the Majority Party, Hon. Cheptumo will move his amendment then you will move yours. Hon. Cheptumo, We are considering provisions relating to the Advocates Act (Cap.16) . Even if your amendment is the first one, the Leader of the Majority Party is deleting the section. His amendment takes precedence. Leader of the Majority Party, since your amendment is a deletion, you can execute it.

The Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs has been away from the Committee of the whole House. My amendment seeks to delete.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended by deleting all the proposed amendments to the Advocates Act.

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This is the last time I am telling you the page. I hear Hon. Mbadi asking me to tell him which page we are on. I am not your tutor. The Committee is of the same view and the originator of the Bill, the Attorney-General of the Republic of Kenya, through a letter dated 22nd August 2018, also confirmed that we delete and drop that amendment. I, therefore, drop that amendment. That is the position of the Committee.

Leader of the Majority Party, you have dropped your proposed amendment. Your proposal was to delete all the proposed amendments to the Advocates Act. Do you propose to delete all of them? Are you dropping your amendment or deleting the proposed amendments to the Advocates Act?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, as per the Order Paper, I ask that Section 11 (4) of the Advocates Act (Cap.16) be deleted. In my justification, I said we are dropping this amendment because the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, in their submission to the House, asked for a deletion. The Attorney- General of the Republic of Kenya, through a letter, also asked that we delete this section.

Is it only Section 11

No. The Order Paper states that I am deleting all the amendments relating to the Advocates Act.

Are you dropping the deletion of all the amendments or just Section 11 (4) ?

All of them.

Hon. Members, it is good for purposes of record. All the proposed amendments by Hon. Duale as per the Order Paper have been dropped. His amendment was to delete all the proposed amendments to the Advocates Act. That brings us back to the amendments by the other Members. If his proposal to delete was carried, the other Members would not have proposed their amendments. That is the position.

Let us have Hon. Kajwang’.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I follow the Leader of the Majority Party but I do not see a corresponding explanation that the Chair is proposing to delete. I have the Order Paper and in it, the Chair is not proposing deletion of Section 11 (4) .

After the discourse, Hon. Duale was proposing to delete the proposed amendments to the Advocates Act. He has gone on record as dropping his amendment. Hon. William Cheptumo, will move his proposed amendments to Section 11 (4) and will justify his proposed amendment. Chair, maybe you can go on record with your consultations. You do not have an amendment to Section 11 (4) .

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, it is important for the Members to know that I have proposed amendments as per the Order Paper. That is the first one.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we need to note that there are several amendments to that Act in the Order Paper. Upon discussion with the Leader of the Majority Party and noting that he is the sponsor of this Bill, we have agreed that I drop my amendments to Section 11

(4)

of the Bill.

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Hon. Cheptumo, which amendments have you dropped? We cannot find them on the Order Paper.

They are there. They are on Page 1463.

Do you have Floor amendments. It is only Hon. Duale’s amendments we can see on that page, Hon. Cheptumo.

I am not talking about my amendments. I am talking about the ones by the Leader of the Majority Party.

You are owning Hon. Duale’s sentiments. Thank you. Very well. Hon. Kajwang’.

We need to be together. I have understood the Leader of the Majority Party. It needs to come to the record very well that he is prosecuting his amendment which is to delete those sections. He is in agreement with the Chair that his amendments are good for the country and law.

That is why he is dropping them.

We thought that he is dropping his amendments. We did not understand that he was dropping his own amendments. That needs to be very clear. The Chairman is not proposing any amendments to Section 11 (4) and Section 19. In other words, if they go the way they are without the Leader of the Majority Party’s amendment, then it will be according to the Bill. The Leader of the Majority Party is intending to delete and we want to support it. We want to be very clear where we are.

Hon. Kajwang’, the Leader of the Majority Party is on record.

Yes, you were confused. He dropped his amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, at times, Hon. T. J. acts for some litigants in the House. So, he was busy. In the Order Paper on Page 1464, I moved that in the Schedule all the proposed amendments to the Advocates Act be deleted. That is what Hon. T. J. wants to hear. I have deleted them. I have given the reasons I am deleting. Chair, can we move?

The Temporary Deputy Chairlady (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Leader of the Majority Party, you are confusing Hon. Kajwang’. Have you dropped or deleted the proposed amendments?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we are guided by the Order Paper on Page 1464.

Leader of the Majority Party, are you moving to delete, drop or withdraw the amendments?

I am moving to delete all proposed amendments to the Advocates Act.

You are right. Hon. Kajwang’ was right. Leader of the Majority Party was not dropping the amendments. It is good you have moved the deletion of the proposed amendments.

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(Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Section 11(4) deleted) Hon. Members, guided by the adoption of the House on the deletion, proposed amendments by Hon. William Cheptumo fall. Amendments to Section 46 by Millie Odhiambo, and Sections 57 and 58 by William Cheptumo fall. All of them are deleted.

(Proposed amendments by Hon. William Cheptumo and Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo Mabona dropped)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Public Archives and Documentation Service Act (Cap. 19) by deleting the proposed amendment and substituting therefor the following amendment—

Give justification or import to your amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, this is just to align the provision to the Constitution 2010. It is a matter of definition of “Cabinet Secretary”.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out,

put and agreed to)

(Provisions relating to the Public Archives and

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Documentation Service Act, Cap.19 as amended agreed to)

Let us Have Hon. William Cheptumo moving Section 81.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to section 81 of the Civil Procedure Act by deleting the proposed new paragraph (vi) and substituting therefor the following—

“ (vi) eight advocates nominated by the Law Society of Kenya to represent each of the branches of the Society established under section 24 of the Law Society of Kenya Act,2014.”

The justification of the amendment is that the Committee found that having three advocates in the Civil Procedure Committee to represent all advocated practising in Kenya does not adequately cater for the unique needs of each region of the country. There is need for more representation from advocates practising throughout the country. It is to expand the numbers so that we have adequate representation of all regions of our country.

Hon. Leader the Majority Party.

The Chairman and his Committee are trying to, in very simple language, seek to increase representation of the Law Society of Kenya (LSK) Rules Committee from the current two members, representing LSK and Mombasa Branch to eight advocates representing each of the branches of the society. So, it is just increasing the LSK representation.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I have a problem with having a crowd in the name of the Rules Committee. I do not know why we are still fixated with this mentality of eight provinces in the country. Why can we not collapse some of those branches and have representation instead of always thinking because we had eight provinces we must have eight representatives? It causes a lot of mess. Even when we want to appoint members of the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) we have to have eight plus one and other commissions the same thing applies. This ethnicises some of the committees instead of ….

Leader of the Minority Party, are you supporting the amendment? Go on record.

A certified version of this Report Let me give a chance to Hon. Omulele

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the rationale behind increasing the number to eight is because the Advocates Act in itself was amended in 2014 to give foundation to eight branches. So, the eight branches need to be represented in this. That is why we have the amendment to align it to the Law Society Act, 2014.

Do you support the amendment?

I support.

Let us have the last one from Hon. Kajwang’. He seems to have a burning issue.

First of all, let me inform the Leader of the Minority Party that there are a few things he should leave to the experts and consumers so that we understand.

This amendment is good because it allows the branches to participate through the people they nominate in the society. I only want to ask the Chair because I am not in the Committee and we are seeing this for the first time, would it not be prudent if he amends his amendment further to say that each of the eight advocates should be nominated by their own branches so that you do not have the Law Society sitting in Nairobi and nominating people for those respective branches? This is the special problem the Mombasa Law Society always had. That is why the Bill is very specific that members of Mombasa Law Society would themselves nominate somebody. Would the Chairman consider a further amendment so that the branches themselves nominate members who sit in the LSK?

Are you supporting?

I support but with further amendment.

Let me have Hon. Pukose.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I would prefer where the LSK is nominating for a branch, the branch to nominate a member to represent it. I am in agreement with the “Chief Justice.” I am surprised that he is not a Member of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

Before you take a vote on this, Hon. Cheptumo, do you want to clarify something for Members to make a decision?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the spirit of the amendment as raised by Hon. Kajwang’ is to ensure that every region of LSK in the country is represented. In our Report, we said that all branches may therefore nominate a representative in the Rules Committee. This is important because each region faces unique challenges and has practitioners of civil procedure rules. Each voice from the regions ought to be represented in the committee. This is the spirit of what my colleague has said.

Before I put the Question, let us have the Member for Wajir North.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I differ with my colleagues. I believe in the idea that variety of ideas come from mixed group of people. Concentration of only Luhyas will result in one point of view. In view of this, I oppose this amendment.

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Allow me to put the Question.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg for your guidance. I would have wished that there would be a further amendment. We are interacting with this for the first time. Is it possible that we could do a few things then we can…

You know the procedures. Hon. Kajwang’, I thought you would convince the Chair. That is why I gave chance to more Members in comparison with the other amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended by deleting the proposed amendment to Section 3 of the Law of Contract Act.

The reason is that we have a law before the House called the Government Contracts Act. Secondly, after the Committee tabled their Report, of which they had a number of issues, the Attorney-General, through a letter dated 22nd August 2018 also asked that the section be deleted because it touches on a very fundamental section; it is not a minor amendment that can be put in a miscellaneous law. I consulted with the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

(Question, that the words to be left out

be left out, put and agreed to)

Hon. Members, we had other amendments that were proposed by Hon. Cheptumo and by Hon. Millie Odhiambo. Now that Hon. Duale’s amendment was carried, the others are taken care of.

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I see no amendment to this one. Yes, Hon. Kajwang’.

It would seem that this particular section did not go to the Committee or there was no public participation. The Chair does not have it either in his Report or in his submissions. I have looked at the Report and I do not see it.

Hon. T.J. Kajwang’, as much as you may be interested in seeing any amendment, it has passed to the stage that we are at. We have no amendment to this section 2.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we are guided by the Order Paper. Where there is no amendment, there is no amendment. Where there is amendment, there is amendment. Hon. T.J. is asking why there is no amendment. That question should have been asked before the beginning of this session. As we go on, you will meet many of them. The Committee did public participation. If they are happy with the amendment on the Bill, they do not need to raise any amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I just want to confirm that the Committee went through this law and we did not recommend any amendment to the section.

Act, Cap. 43 agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by –

I have listened to the Chair. He is a bit very confusing. I think what he means in Section 4 (1) and (2) is he is deleting the word “youth” and substituting it with “age” so that this empowers the courts to consider age as a factor when granting court probation orders. That is exactly what he means.

We are dealing with Section 4. Hon. Member for Funyula, is it on this?

The Probation of Offenders Act, Cap.64, Section 5

(1)

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by -

I will propose the Question before giving opportunity to the Leader of the Majority Party.

I can welcome a few comments. Yes, Hon. Member for Suba South and Leader of the Minority Party?

I would want the Chair to come out so clearly. Before the creation of counties, we had districts which were not necessarily the current county geographical areas. If the word “district” was applicable then and make it “county”, would it not inconvenience? Why are we substituting the words as if we transformed districts to counties? I am a bit at a loss why the word “district” has become untenable. I am opposing, unless I am convinced otherwise.

The Leader of the Majority Party.

I really want to ask the Chair to drop that amendment. It is not proper when you remove “district” and substitute with “county”. Districts exist in law. Our constituencies are sub-counties, in other words districts. There can be more districts in a county. So, Chair, please. We do not want to rub shoulders the wrong way. Some of us have issues with counties. The word “county” will give us constipation. Let us remain with our “district”. I ask the Chair to drop that amendment. Leave it the way it is in the Bill.

Member for Emuhaya, what do you have to say on this?

I would want to support the earlier speaker, Hon. Duale, on what he has just said. It is because the district is a smaller place. If you substitute it with a county, it can really be misused because there are several districts within a county. Suppose we are allocating resources using this law, it can really disadvantage. So, we either amend it so that it is “district for sub-county” or something like that.

Thank you, The Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Let me hear from the other side. Hon. Member for Kipkelion East.

Hon. Joseph Limo

: I concur with the Leader of the Majority Party. Let us request the Chair to do a further amendment to make it “sub-county” instead of reverting to district which is already obsolete.

Yes, Hon. Kajwang’.

Well. The Leader of the Majority Party and the Leader of the Minority Party are right in a sense. But, you need to understand where the Chair of

A certified version of this Report the Committee is coming from. We used to have districts in the law. What we have in the law now is “county”. If we want to go the sub-county way to which I agree, I also want things to be done in our constituencies, the first thing we must do is to define “sub-county” in Section 1. What we can do is to have the legal people quickly define “sub-county” in the law in Section 1 and then the Chair can be asked to see if he can substitute “county” for “sub-county”. If you say “sub-county” without it being defined in law, nobody will know what you are referring to. What we have in the Constitution and the law is “county”.

Hon. Omulele?

I want to agree with the speakers who have spoken before me. When you look at what is trying to be taken care of by these provisions is basically in regard to an offender who is being restricted to a certain area so that he can be observed by the probation officer. If you limit it to a whole county, that observation will not be possible. I agree that it is probable that we should go for a sub-county or a smaller area.

Hon. Ogutu Abel of Bomachoge. I will listen to two more Members before I put the Question. It is for the House to take note. Hon. Pukose?

This law is meant for the probation officer to observe a person, if serving outside jail. When we leave it as “district” and we know it is equivalent to a sub-county, it is better left as a district instead of county. The district is an equivalent of the sub-county. I ask the Chair to drop the amendment.

The last one as I consult is the Hon. Member for Nyando.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I just want to say that the district that the Chair wants to delete in the Act is not equivalent to the sub counties. These are the original districts. I think he is right.

Let us listen to the Chair.

I want to agree that our constituencies are currently sub counties. I am not satisfied if we have a definition of “sub-county” in the Constitution. If the answer is a no, I would propose that I delete this amendment so that I am able to relook at the whole issue and see how we can bring the amendment later. We need to make laws that are not. going to cause more confusion on the ground.

I withdraw.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. It is good to have Members who are very bright. The Chair, of course, listens and consults. With that, it is on record that the Chair has dropped the amendment to Section 5 (1) .

A certified version of this Report The Probation of Offenders Act, Cap.64, Section 8(3)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, Section 8 (3) be amended…

Hon. Cheptumo, you have an amendment that we do not have?

We do not have the amendment to Section 8 (3) so I will put the Question. The Probation of Offenders Act, Cap.64, Section 17

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by -

Member for Kiminini.

Hon. Cheptumo, you know when you are amending, you need to put some specifics because he is talking of Section 17 (f) and yet as per the Order Paper, there is nothing.

The Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we need to move. Because Hon. Mbadi did not understand what the Chair was saying, basically in 17 he is proposing an amendment that will give way for persons who may want to be volunteers as probation officers. It is as simple as that and we support.

Thank you for enriching the Chair’s amendment.

Member for Endebess.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, Section 17 in the Order Paper is saying, “Delete the words “principal probation officer” and substitute

A certified version of this Report therefore the word ‘Director”. When you come to (f) it says, “by inserting the following new amendment immediately after the proposed amendment to Section 17-”

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the Dr. must have come from a surgery, you know he is a surgeon. He is a gynecologist…

Hon. Cheptumo as I call upon you to move your New Section 11, you must note an amendment to Section 5 (i) which has an effect to Section 11 (1) which is about the county.

I am just trying to help you since you dropped New Section (5) which was talking about the word ‘district’, if you will recall. This can guide you in moving your new sections.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move new Sections 11 and 12.

Let us deal with each new section separately.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by –

Hon. Cheptumo, let me guide you, you should move that the New Section 11 be now read a Second Time.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I move that New Section 11 of the Bill be now read a Second time.

Give us your justification on this.

Hon. William Cheptumo

: The rationale for New Section 11 is that the Committee proposed to delete the words ‘principal probation officer’ wherever they appear and substitute therefore the word ‘Director’. That is the basis of our amendment and this is from New Section 11 all the way to 16 but as you have said, we should deal with Section 11 first and then we move to the others.

Hon. Cheptumo as I guided before, you must be very careful. We are dealing with New Section 11 (3) and (4) which you earlier on dropped. You remember because of the words “district” and “County”.

I also drop the amendments on New Section 11 (3) and (4) .

So, you are dropping the amendments on New Section 11 (3) and (4) .

Member for Luanda.

I understand what the Chair has done by dropping New Section 11 (3) and (4) . I think he should have dropped the proposals in regard to 11 (3) (a) and (4) because I think 11 (3) (b) is proper because we are replacing the words ‘principal probation officer’ with ‘Director’

That is what he wanted to record. Hon. Cheptumo, it should be clear to the Members on New Section11 (3) and (4) as you had earlier done it in 5 (1) . You have said you have dropped but you are not dropping the whole new section but only those two new sections.

Yes, it is only those two clauses.

That is why the Member for Luanda is right. You are dropping New Section 11 (3) and (4) .

Correct.

Hon. Members Section 11 (3) and (4) are dropped. Of course, following what we did in New Section 5 (1) .

and

(4)

dropped)

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

The Temporary Deputy Chairlady (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Hon. Cheptumo, I know Hon. Millie Odhiambo will guide on this. She is looking very nice today. Just go on record Hon. Cheptumo before I give Millie.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move that Section 11 (5) …

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We have new Section 11 (1) , (3) and (4) . Hon. Cheptumo, if I can help you, you are on record for dropping New Section 11 (3) and (4) . So only prosecute New Section 11 (1) . Hon. Millie-Odhiambo.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. Sorry, I have come in late because of the several roles we play as Members. I have several proposed amendments. I am therefore requesting if I can be brought to speed on where we are, if you could indulge me.

Hon. Millie, you have talked about coming late and the reason. I can only guide you on where we are. We are on provisions relating to the Probation of Offenders Act, Cap. 64. We are now on New Section 11.

The Member for Endebess is proposing that you should have sat next to Hon. Duale and maybe you could have gotten a brief on exactly where we are because you came late. Yes Chair, at least with that break from Hon. Millie Odhiambo, continue.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I want to deal with Section 11 (1) where we are replacing the principal probation officer with Director because that is the position that should apply.

The Probation of Offenders Act, Cap.64, New Section 12 (1)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by –

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(Question, that the new section be read a Second Time, proposed)

The mood of the House is that I put the Question.

Temporary Deputy Chairlady

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu)

: Is there anyone who wants to comment?

The Probation of Offenders Act, Cap.64, Section 13

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by –

A certified version of this Report The Probation of Offenders Act, Cap.64, New Section 16(a)

Let us have the Chairman move Second Reading on New Section 16 (a) .

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by –

Chairman, please, move Second Reading on New Section 18.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act by –

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We are through with that provision. I move to put the final Question.

There is no amendment to Section 2. It is actually an introduction to a new section. Hon. Chairman, you are going to move the Second Reading of New Section 2. Hon. Cheptumo, we must deal with Section 2 because there is no amendment and then we can come to the new sections.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Criminal Procedure Code by inserting the following new amendments immediately after the proposed amendments in section 2 - The Criminal Procedure Code, Cap. 75, New Section 26 (1)

Hon. Chairman, move the Second Reading of the New Section 26 (1) .

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Criminal Procedure Code by inserting the following new amendments immediately after the proposed amendments to section 2—

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(Question, that the new section be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)

Let us have the Mover to move the Second Reading of the New Section 386 (1) .

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Criminal Procedure Code by inserting the following new amendments immediately after the proposed amendments to section 2—

Hon. Members, with those new sections, I now move to put the last Question.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

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Hon. Kajwang’ what is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, you may want to know whether Members are awake. This is because they are considering provisions of Extradition

Act. It should be contiguous, contigious is a different thing.

I know you are Luo and you come from the lake.

You see Hon. Jomo does not know where we are going.

Hon. Jomo, you have heard how Hon. Kajwang’ has said it. Leader of the Majority Party, you want to pronounce it for him.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, do you want to pronounce it for him? It is contagious. Hon. Kajwang’, it was on a light note.

We will consider the amendments section by section. The Registration of Persons Act, Cap. 107, Section 3 The Registration of Persons Act, Cap. 107, Section 5 (1) (c)

There is an amendment to Section 5 (1) (c) . I call upon the Mover, Hon. Jude Njomo. Mover, are we together? We are on Section 5 (1) (c) .

THAT, Section 5 (1) (c) be read a Second Time.

No, we are not on the new section. You cannot move that a section be read a Second Time. This is not a new section.

Do you want my justification?

Yes.

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act, (Cap. 107) —

Hon. Jude Njomo, do not deal with the amendment to Section 5 (1) (g) . Just deal with the amendment to Section 5 (1)

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act, (Cap. 107) —

What is your import?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, this is the paragraph that requires that your tribe be registered by the Registrar of Persons. We are a united nation. We are a nation of Kenyans and not of tribes. That is why we do not want to keep being reminded of where we have come from as tribal people. We want to be one nation of Kenyans and we do not want the Registrar of Persons to group us as tribes.

Very well.

Let us have Hon. Omulele.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I oppose that proposal for good reason. We must face this reason as a nation. I do not think there is any harm in coming from the Luhya or Kamba tribes, Banyore sub-tribe or being a Somali or a Giriama for that matter. This is our history. Our Constitution recognises that we should be proud of where we come from. Why do we want to pretend that we are not what we are? The tribe is here to stay.

Let us have the Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I supported Hon. Jude on the Interest Rates Bill so he thought I will support him every day. We must be proud of our heritage, tribes, dress, language and culture. You must identify a Luo from a Somali, a Luo from a Kamba, and a Saboti from a Maasai. We can build a Kenyan nation. I oppose the amendment like T. J. Kajwang’. I oppose and oppose.

Let us have the Member for Emuhaya.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. It has been clearly said that I oppose the amendment. My background as a teacher of history and government, the tribe is a very important institution.

I beg to oppose the amendment.

Let us have Hon. Kanini Kega. Let us have the ones who have not spoken. I am trying to look for the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I rise to oppose the amendment. We are all proud of our tribes. It is through the diversity of our tribes that we make up the entire Kenya. With those very few remarks, I oppose the amendment.

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Lastly, let us have the Member for Pokot South.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. You had already forgotten me. I oppose the amendment. Njomo is my good friend but on this one, he is not. Tribes are already in the Constitution in terms of regional balance. When you register people, you do so for a reason - maybe for resource sharing in future. If you do not know where somebody comes from, there is the danger of one community taking over the whole country. I oppose that amendment. It is a dangerous one.

With that debate arising, allow me to put the Question. Hon. Members, you must be attentive as Hon. Kajwang’ said.

The Registration of Persons Act, Cap. 107, Section 5 (1) (g)

There is an amendment to Section 5 (1) (g) . In fact, there are two amendments. One is by Hon. Paul Koinange and another by Hon. Jude Njomo. Let us start with Hon. Paul Koinange. Yes, Hon. Duale.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, because we are dealing with a very sensitive matter on registration, I want the owners of those amendments to properly explain to the House the import of their amendments.

Very well. Please, Members, as the Leader of the Majority Party says, it is good to give the import of your amendment, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Let us start with the Chair. He is the one on record because his amendment proposes a deletion.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act (Cap. 107) by -

Very well. That is the import.

Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the Chairman did not explain well. I really want him to explain. At what stage are you going to register a Kenyan and ask for his place of residence, postal address and global positioning system coordinates? What does a pastoralist in North Eastern Kenya, or a Sabaot, know about global positioning system coordinates and land reference number? Three quarters of my constituents do not own land. Our land is communal. You also need to provide your house number. Is it where you pay rent or where you own? We need the Chairman to clarify all these as we move forward.

Chair, the Leader of the Majority Party is looking for clarification. Please note that because for Members to make a decision, you must clarify your import.

Hon. Kolosh.

Thank you. I must admit that I am a Member of Hon. Koinange’s Committee. Not all people in this country live in the same kind of environment. Some people live on vast lands owned by communities. There are no plots. The houses we have in the county headquarters in Wajir do not have title deeds and land reference numbers. Introducing this in this Act will mean keeping out Kenyans. The best we can do is the location; the place you were born and the place you live and nothing more than that. That place must also be voluntary.

Let me hear from the Member for Funyula. I can see there is interest in this amendment.

Hon. 001, we do not just stand when another Member is on the Floor. You are out of order.

I am stretching.

We do not stretch in the House. You must respect the Member for Funyula.

Yes, and he is my friend. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I stand to oppose the amendments. It presupposes that it now becomes mandatory for a Kenyan to have a place. The Constitution does not contemplate that you must have a place. It contemplates that you must exist. The details of your existence are clearly shown in the national identification card or your birth certificate. There are other issues like global positioning system coordinates. That means you have one fixed place of abode. What about if you keep on moving? For example, I own a house in Nairobi and a home in my constituency. Where is my global positioning place? This is superfluous.

Thank you. Your point is taken. Let me hear the Member for Kitui Central, who is behind you.

Hon. Makali Mulu

: Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. We need to look at the original Bill before we oppose the amendment. Section 5

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Members have listened and they will make a decision.

Member for Saku.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I rise to oppose this amendment. Take for example, if the global positioning system position is 12 or 18 coordinates that are gotten through a satellite system, how would an ordinary Kenyan know the exact position of his plot or house? To make it easy, let us look at what we want in terms of data, when a Kenyan requires an identification card.

Finally, let us hear the Chairperson because I can see in your amendments you are talking about “if any” of the requirements. Do you want to inform the House?

On point of information.

Whom do you want to inform? Give him the microphone.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I want to inform the House.

Who wants your information?

For this purpose.

You are out of order. Maybe you would have talked about the Chair and he would have either accepted or rejected your information. I am sure he would have accepted. I would have allowed you to inform him. Please, finalise Chair because I can see you want to do it before I put the Question.

I want to appeal to Hon. Members.

Order, Leader of the Majority Party. The Chair wants to put across a point.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the issue is about fear. As a Committee, we are talking about security of the country. When we talk of global positioning system coordinates, we can know where you are using your mobile phone. There should not be fear, if you are not hiding. We need to know where each and every Kenyan is.

Allow me to put the Question for the House to take a vote on this amendment.

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There is an amendment by Hon. Jude Njomo.

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act, (Cap. 107) —

Okay, Hon. Member. We have listened to the import of the amendment.

Thank you Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I rise to support Hon. Jude Njomo’s amendment. By the time somebody is 18 years old and is looking for an identity card, most of them would already be having a phone. We know all our children have phones. It is basically important that we include a telephone number. But, it is not mandatory. It is an option.

Thank you. Member for Homa Bay County, Hon. Wanga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I would like to support the amendment by Hon. Jude Njomo. Practically and if you are part of the process of trying to identify those whose IDs are at registration centres, telephone numbers can help in tracing these people. This is basic and important. Phone numbers and email addresses, if necessary, are provided. If you do not have one, you can give your mother’s, husband’s or your wife’s so that you can be traced. It is a critical amendment.

Hon. Osotsi.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, as a point of information, the registration of persons is one component of the National Integrated Identity Management System which is going to be an IT infrastructure where all government databases

A certified version of this Report are going to be connected into one infrastructure. Therefore, it seeks to get as much information as possible that will be integrated on that setup. It is important to have telephone numbers because at the moment we have a challenge managing subscribers’ data for Safaricom. If that is linked on to the registration of persons setup, it will help in the project of identity management.

Let me hear from Hon. Duale.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I agree with the sentiments of Hon. Jude Njomo.

I am on the Floor . You do not shout when I am on the Floor.

He is actually out of order.

I listened to Hon. Osotsi, but he did not declare his interest. He is an ICT guru. The assumption we are making, and let us be very clear, is that every Kenyan has a mobile phone. We are making a serious assumption that every Kenyan has a registered telephone number. Hon. Wanga’s argument is true. The many IDs piled up in registration centres can be traced through that. But we are making a serious assumption when making law. What happens to the pastoralists or fishermen who do not have mobile phones?

Let me give a chance to Hon. Ganya. He says that I cannot see him, yet I am seeing him. Knowing that he is one of us, there is a day he was somewhere.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, it is important that we appreciate the diversity of our nation and its unique circumstances and those of all Kenyans. There are Kenyans who are not lucky or privileged enough to have the provisions that are being proposed. That is pure discrimination of those Kenyans.

I oppose.

Let us have Hon. Kajwang’, the legal mind. One minute and then we hear from the Chair.

I will have one last word. I want to remind all the Members who are trying to get the telephone numbers, the GPS and all that that there is a constitutional article which gives us a right of privacy. Right of privacy is constitutional. You cannot get my telephone number or my email address unless I want to give. A county is for everybody. If you want to get these personal things, I have a constitutional right to privacy.

I oppose the amendment. Before I sit down, I have realised that we are even in a worse position than where we were. From what the Chair, Hon. Koinange was proposing, if the Bill is left the way it is, it will still demand of us the GPS and land reference numbers. We need to recommit some of it.

Hon. Kajwang’, you know the procedures of the House. Let us have the Mover to convince the House before I put the Question. Hon. Jude Njomo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, with all due respect to the Leader of the Majority Party and Hon. Kajwang’, they are misleading the House. The amendment has been framed in such a way that it is not compulsory for one to give an email

A certified version of this Report address or a telephone number. It is if you want to. I would like my telephone number to be with the Registrar of Persons so that if I lose my ID he can call me. It is very clear that if one does not have a telephone number or if one does not want his or her telephone number to be registered, it does not need to. In as much as he has right to his privacy, I also have a right to have my number with the Registrar of Persons. I have a right to have my number known to the Registrar of Persons to trace me if my ID gets lost.

Having listened to the Mover, it is time for the House to vote. I know we can contribute to this till tomorrow. Allow me to put the Question.

The Registration of Persons Act, Cap. 107, Section 9

(1)

Hon. Kajwang’, you know the process. You know at what stage recommittal is done. You are a lawyer. We are now on Section 9 (1) . Hon. Millie.

Thank you Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Hon. Millie resume your seat. Hon. Makali. You know we have passed this.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, that is what I wanted to find out. We have just discussed the amendments and they have been rejected. Does it mean that Section 5 (g) is already adopted as part of the Bill? I thoughw we need the Question to be put to adopt it.

Hon. Makali, say that again.

We have only discussed the proposed amendments which have now been rejected by the House. Does that then mean we refer to the original Clause in the miscellaneous Bill or do you need to put a Question? If the Question is not put, we have already hanged ourselves as Kenyans.

Hon. Makali, we are on the provisions and I had already put the Question to ….

But we have already gone to Section 9 (1) .

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I have to go through the provisions relating to the Registration of Persons Act. It is good for you to be there.

Thank you.

We are on Section 9 (1) and we have Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended by deleting the proposed amendment to section 9 (1) of the Registration of Persons Act, Cap.107.

The reason I am proposing this amendment is the same with the one Members have been stating. If you look at what is proposed in this amendment you realise that it is seeking to have an integrated identity management system that is very complex, that will be getting information from members of the public. When we are an advanced society, it is a very good thing. I am just wondering whether it is possible given the disparities that we have in the country.

The other reason I am very skeptical about this is that the kind of things that are being proposed here would require substantive legislation. You can even see how the issues that are being proposed are contentious. People are talking about issues of privacy which are constitutional; issues of whether we are at the same level; and, the kind of information that is required. Would we have them in parts of the country? Do we not have them? It is unfortunate that we did not have – I do not know if it was there –the harmonisation committee. Those are some of the things I would have wished to propose. Because of that, I propose that it be deleted.

(Question, that the words to be left out

be left out, put and agreed to)

Since Hon. Millie’s amendment was carried, the amendment by the Chair of the Committee is dropped.

The Registration of Persons Act, Cap. 107, Section 9A

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act, Cap 107—

He should finish first. Hon. Kajwang’, you have sat with me here. Let him move, then I propose. From there, you can prosecute your point.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, in the current setup, birth and death certificates are printed at the registration centres. We have Huduma centres all over the country. We are trying to decentralise the printing and distribution of these credentials including birth certificates, death certificates and student identity cards. Currently, we have passport and IDs printed here in Nairobi. Imagine people in remote villages coming to get their birth and death certificates here in Nairobi at a central place. That is detrimental.

Thank you.

Hon. Member, you have not moved (b) and (c) . Just move them.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act, Cap 107—

Hon. Kajwang’, what is your contribution to this?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I do not know where we are. May I have the attention of the Clerk-at-the Table? If I followed the amendment of Hon. Millie Odhiambo, she was deleting everything you find there in 9A. That was the gist of her deletion. When we carried it, that meant that there is nothing called 9A and so on. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, just help me, I may be mistaken.

Yes, you are mistaken. It is my duty to let you know where we are. You have done so well, but you must be tired. Hon. Millie talked of 9 (1) , that the amendment in the Bill should not be deleted. Now we are on New Section 9A.

That is where the problem is. If you look at the Bill at Page 271, Section 9 (1) was proposing to delete and insert the new section immediately after Section 9.

But it has nothing to do with section 9.

This new one was inserted after deleting the way the Bill is written. So, if we delete and insert… That is how I understood it.

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The deletion that we had was 9 (1) . This is New Section 9. Hon. Duale!

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, to make it very clear, Hon. Millie’s amendment that was carried was dealing with 9 (1) . So, 9A is intact. Let me make it very clear. Because of the census of next year, Section 9A is important. We have deleted Section 9 (1) , we have not touched Section 9A. It concerns next year’s census. It is a New clause 9A.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Hon. Millie.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I wish the Leader of the Majority Party could listen to me carefully.

Members, let us not go back to what we have done. We have dealt with Millie’s amendment and it was carried.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we need to be clear about what we have done from a legislative perspective. If you read Section 9 (1) , it says “Delete. Insert the following new section immediately after section 9.” It is to insert. So, if it is deleted, there is nothing to be inserted. Leader of the Majority Party, if I could, please, have your ears.

I was saying it is unfortunate that we do not have a harmonisation committee. If only we sat to discuss these things with each other, we really would have dealt with some of these things earlier on. Section 9 (1) says, “Delete. Insert the following new section immediately after section 9”.

My amendment is to delete that. Assume it is not there. Then, Section 9A comes as a consequence but it is being introduced by what I deleted. What I would suggest is that Hon. Duale recommits if he is convinced that this is very important for registration. Otherwise, the truth is that we have deleted it.

Consider the procedures. Hon. Kajwang’, you know recommital of the House. Again, New Section 9A is a new one, even on the original Bill.

Read the preceding words. Look at them. This is where you need to listen to lawyers.

Hon. Makali Mulu, what is your point?

What we are saying is that once Hon. Millie’s amendment is carried, the amendment by Hon. Mohamed Hire is null and void. It cannot be presented. So, what we need to do because what we have done automatically means this amendment by Hon. Mohamed Hire dies if Millie’s is carried… As the Leader of the Majority Party is saying, an integrated professional management system is very important. There is no way you can do without it in a country. It is the modern way of doing registration. So, we need to recommit this thing.

I am having the Laws of Kenya with me. What Hon. Millie Odhiambo did is to refuse deletion of Section 9 (1) which has (i) , (ii) , (iii) , (iv) , (v) , (vi) and (vii) . From there, we are inserting a new one before Section

With a lot of respect, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, there is a problem. Let us just go procedurally. We are getting into a problem. Let the legal officers not misdirect us. It is here on page 1469. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chair, just come with me. On that page of the Order Paper, Millie is saying that the Schedule to the Bill be amended by deleting the proposed amendment to section 9 (1) of the Registration of Persons Act, Cap.107. What was the proposed amendment? It was on page 271. It was proposing a deletion. So, this is an amendment proposing the deletion of what was proposed. What was proposed was “delete and insert the following”.

Have you seen the full stop and not “and”?

I see it but it is in one sentence. I see it as part of the thought. The best thing we need to do here is to consider this well. I agree with the Leader of the Majority Party. But as a matter of procedure we need to recommit this and then clean it up. Otherwise, we will be off the track.

We did away with Hon. Millie Odhiambo’s. It was carried, the House voted. You know very well that we cannot go back to Section 9 (1) .

Hon. Millie, as I consult?

The import of my deletion is that, if it is deleted, we go back to what is in the primary Act. That means we will have two conflicting sections, with what is in the primary Act. We are talking about legal construction and interpretation. This is not even about persuading each other on content. It says “insert the following new section immediately after Section 9”. So, I said “delete”. If that is deleted, all we have is the new section without a deletion of the parent one. So, what I have deleted is the proposed amendments, not what is in the parent Act. So, the parent Act remains intact and the new one remains intact – they will have two conflicting sections.

No, they will not be conflicting. At least, you have given clarity in exactly what you are saying. We still remain intact.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party.

This is just to tell Hon. Millie that we got her right that what is in the parent Act is not in total conflict with the new section 9A. We have no problem. They are not in conflict. Then, what Hon. Hire who is the Member for Lagdera is trying to do is to amend part of the New Section 9A which is quite in order. She is right.

Yes, Member for Saku.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. If I get Hon. Millie Odhiambo correctly, we are being misled in this House. If we are going to delete Section 9 (1) and introduce Section 9A on integrated information systems, Millie is telling us to delete 9A which is the new amendment. For that reason, the House should not be misled on what is the import of what is happening in this Act. That is what she says should be deleted.

It is a new one, they are not in conflict. Thank you for the great minds. We have agreed it is not in conflict. We also have procedures in the House. So, I will put the Question. Allow me to do so for the House to take a vote. Please allow me.

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(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to) Let us get the Member for Kiambaa on New Section 9A. Maybe it will give clarity to this.

I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act, (Cap 107) by—

Hon. Koinange, clarify the import of your amendment.

The proposed amendment serves to give clarity that the Principal Secretary in the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government, for matters relating to registration of persons, shall be the person who shall exercise overall responsibility with respect to administration, coordination and management for proposed National Integrated Identity Management System.

Some Members seem tired. Can you guide Hon. Kajwang’ where we are. Hon. Wanga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I just wanted a clarification, has New Section 9A been dealt with? Has it been read a Second Time?

The intention of Hon. Millie was to move this away, but she ended up deleting the amendment on Section 9 (1) , which is just to return it to what was in the parent Act. Her intention was to remove this section from this law because what we are dealing with is a law that substantively changes the structure of how we register our people but we are doing it through a miscellaneous amendment. The National Integrated Identity Management System is a matter that should come as a standalone law because it changes completely the structure of how we register people as a country. You will no longer be registered at 18 years; you will be registered when you are born by an assistant chief and so on. What we are changing is fundamental and it should therefore come as a standalone law so that this House debates and understands it and takes it to our people as it is supposed to be. That is what I wanted to say.

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Hon. Members, we are still on Section 9A. Hon. Millie did Section 9 (1) … Member for Funyula.

Hon. Member, allow the Member to make his contribution. You must catch the Chair’s eye. You are not special. Everybody wants to speak to this. You are out of order. We need discipline in the House. It is important for us to listen to each other. Member for Funyula.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we need to relook at these two sections because if you look at Section 9A, the intention is to essentially replace the current registration system. Section 9A (2) (b) reads, “assign a unique national identification number to every person registered in Kenya.” The import is that the current system is therefore being replaced by the new system. So, if we retain both of them it will see us working on a double system that is going to be a source of confusion to the people of Kenya. Therefore we must relook at what we are talking about.

Let us hear from Prof. Ogutu although you started on a bad note. It was out of order.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady for giving me this opportunity. This debate that introduces a new section is very fundamental. It is a section which will enable me to print my ID from Kitale or Mombasa and it is a new structure that we are putting in place. My worry is, if we put it as a miscellaneous amendment, we will be giving it the attention it deserves? It is a very important system for this country; we need to bring it in as a substantive Motion to be discussed. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chair.

Hon. Osotsi.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we need to pay attention to what Hon. Wanga raised. This particular amendment would be good if it is done as a substantive legislation. I am saying that because the National Integrated Identity Management System that I know is going to be a system that is going to include various other databases which will include registration of persons, election data, census data and many other databases. It is therefore important that this be brought as a separate piece of legislation and not be included here.

Hon. Pukose.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I am in the further amendment by Hon. Koinange. But before I say that, the way I understood the amendment by Hon. Millie Odhiambo was that the original Act remains the way it is. That means that the deletion that had been done in the Bill does not take precedence.

Hon. Millie Odhiambo, listen to Hon. Member for Endebess who is giving input to your amendment.

Hon. Millie Odhiambo, the way I understood your amendment it meant that there was a deletion in the Bill, your amendment counteracted that deletion. Meaning the original Act remains as it is. Now, Section 9A is a new amendment which has been read a Second Time. It does not affect the original Act, it is a new amendment. So, after it was read the Second Time, Hon. Paul Koinange has done a further amendment where he is making the Principal Secretary to be responsible for administration, coordination and

A certified version of this Report management of the system. I have an issue with this because essentially, there is supposed to be a Chief Executive Officer of Registration of Persons and deaths.

When you make the PS responsible it means you are taking away the duties of the CEO in charge of this. This means that the PS must only do this duty leaving other duties. Maybe Hon. Koinange needs to convince us further about this.

Hon. Millie Odhiambo is agreeing. Hon. Members allow me to remind you that this is a House of debate. It is not a House where we agree on one thing, but we take a vote and we also have procedures. In the event that a vote has been taken and you are not satisfied, you are allowed to recommit.

Let us have the Chair.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. From the outset, I want to make it clear that Section 9A has not been read a Second Time, and we need to put this into consideration. Secondly, there are germane issues which have been raised in it that have very severe ramifications on registration and census.

Let us have the Chair.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, the Members are free to debate. I said this is a House of debate. Let him raise his issue and we will take a vote because there are procedures.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I do not mind the proposed amendment but the registration of persons falls under the Principal Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government and that is in the executive order, so he is the accounting officer.

Hon. Members, before I put the Question look at Order Paper, Section 9A is indicated as new Section and we have already dealt its Second Reading.

Hon. Duale.

What happened to the amendment by the Member for Lagdera? Let us be very honest in debate. This new Section 9A is important for registration of persons and census. This Bill has been here for the last six months. So, what have we done to the amendment by the Member for Lagdera? Have we disposed it of?

Yes, it was agreed.

So, we agreed and passed it.

The Registration of Persons Act, Cap. 107, New Section 16

The New Section 16 is by two Members. The Member for Lagdera moved it to be read a Second Time.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I need to seek your guidance on this. If you look at the Order Paper there are a couple of amendments which I had proposed in Section 9A. Have we disposed them?

You spoke to the three of them. So we are now in the new section which you need to move to be read a Second Time because it is new.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Bill be amended in the Schedule in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act, Cap 107—

NEW By inserting the following new amendment in its proper numerical sequence—

Hon. Member, this is a new section so, you should move it as being read a Second Time.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I move that New Section 16 be read a Second Time.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

The Temporary Deputy Chairlady (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Hon. Wanga what is your point of order?

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The Ayes had it even before the Nays finished. Nevertheless, I just want it to go on record that New Section 9A was not read a Second Time on the Floor of this House.

Hon. Member, I said it again that 9A was not so new but Section 16 is new. What we had in 9A was already read a Second Time during the Bill. It is already indicated as new in the Bill. Therefore Section 16 is new because it is not in this Bill at all and that is why we are reading it for the Second Time.

(Question, that the new clause be added to

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the Bill, put and agreed to) [The Temporary Deputy Chairlady (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) left the Chair] [The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele) took the Chair]

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. T.J. Kajwang’, what is out of order?

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I think you need to take us back to the rail. I think we could be running outside the rail and maybe making laws that will give us problems because this is Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill.

I remember sometime I asked if what we had passed earlier, which was Section 5, had been made to be part of the Bill. At that time, I was told that we will run through all the provisions affecting the Registration of Persons Act and then we will make it part of the Bill. Now, here we are. We have just done Section 16 and we are making it part of the Bill. Why is it that in some instances we are not making it part of the Bill when in some others we are doing so? I had valid reasons for asking this question. It is because that would inform the way we would vote when it is made part of Bill in respect of Section 5. The way it is, it is so convoluted that I think the best way would be to recommit provisions dealing with the Registration of Persons Act. We should recommit the whole thing and look at the HANSARD and see what we have done and what we have not done. The Clerks can help us by reading out what is in the HANSARD and what we have taken a vote on and what we have not taken a vote on.

The Leader of the Majority Party is very right, in my view. This is my personal view. To be able to do census, a section like 9A is very important, but as the Member for Homa Bay said, we do not know whether we voted for it or not. I think we need assistance on the provisions dealing with the Registration of Persons Act.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Kajwang’, I get what you are saying. Hon. Members, it is important for us to walk together. From where I sit, my take is that we have these amendment proposals to the Registration of Persons Act. All the proposed amendments have not yet been made part of the Bill. I am aware that we shall make all of them part of the Bill together as one.

If I was to speak to the contentious Section 9 and New Section 9A, I think to clear this up, what Hon. Millie Odhiambo had done was basically to effect the proposed deletion by the Mover so that you go back to the parent Act. So, as it is, the parent Act is what is subsisting. We went back to that but there was a proposed New Section 9A by the Mover, which has no relation with section 1 – which the House debated during Second Reading. The House had dealt with it in the Second Reading. So, it was not necessary again to have a Second Reading of it here. What we are dealing with now was the Third Reading of it. That is why the proposed amendments by Hon. Garane were dealt with in the way they were dealt with. Also, the proposed amendments by the Chair were also dealt with as the House dealt with them. I think we have made good progress.

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I will give the Floor to the Leader of the Majority Party and then Hon. Millie so that we move together.

I think from where you left, it is now our business, as Members. This is because we will continue with this Bill. We will get the HANSARD and see what happened in as far as the registration section is concerned. If we feel we need to bring a re-committal, we will bring it at the tail-end of this process. I commit myself to that because the registration section is very important for the census and to the Government.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Millie, you have a point of order.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I just needed clarity because it is not just this miscellaneous amendments Bill that we have been dealing with on the Floor of the House. I need clarity on an issue of procedure. At what point is a clause considered new so that it requires to be read a Second Time? At what point is a new clause “new new” and a clause is “new”? I have heard new terminologies like “new new” and “new”. I have actually looked at it and I have seen the one that is “new” is in small letters and the “new new” is in capital letters. I am a very diligent person. This is my third term in this House, but I am still open to learning. Can I be trained on the aspect of when a clause is “new” and when it is “new new?”

Thank you. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Millie, I think I had just spoken to that matter. Because you are a very diligent Member of this House, I will repeat what I had said.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: You did? Very well.

-

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Registration of Persons Act (Cap. 107) by –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to Section 3 of the Housing Act, Cap 117 by -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, as I agree to the amendment, I find Section 3 (2A) a bit curious unless we have not yet considered it.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Oundo, we are still on Section 3

(2)

. Are you speaking to Section 3

(2A)

?

I need guidance, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am on page 1470 with respect to the Housing Act. I am speaking to the amendment stated:

“ (b) by inserting the following new item immediately after the proposed new subsection (2) –

Insert the following new subsection immediately after subsection (2) — (2A) In appointing the persons under subsection 2 (d) , the Cabinet Secretary shall ensure that the marginalised groups are represented.”

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Proceed.

Unless we are not yet there. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: We are together.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I find it curious. Why would we talk about marginalised groups yet it is expected that whenever an appointment is made under the Constitution and the general law, an attempt will be made to balance? Specifically, who are those marginalised groups that the Chair of the Committee is talking about? I need his guidance or clarification.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, it is already in law. It is in the Constitution that when dishing out public jobs, you have to consider the marginalised communities. You have to consider women, youths and those living with

A certified version of this Report disabilities. That is already in law. It becomes very curious for this to be sneaked into this omnibus amendment Bill. Something has to be properly considered here.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): You know the rules of debate. There is no point in repeating what Hon. Oundo has said if you are supporting it.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, it is very sad that at this hour, somebody is asking who the marginalised people are. A good example of a marginalised person is Hon. Sankok. He was here. Where is he? I want to give him physical evidence of someone who is marginalised. The great ladies sitting here represent women. They are marginalised. He is there. That is a good example of a marginalised person. The Chair is right because we do not want Cabinet Secretaries to take it for granted. They must be told in an Act of Parliament that you cannot appoint people and leave those who are marginalised. That is why the Jubilee Party decided to nominate this Member of Parliament so that he can fight for the marginalised. You are a living example of a marginalised person. Even Subas in Ruaraka are marginalised.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended by deleting the proposed amendment to the Law of Succession Act.

The rationale is that this amendment proposes to empower the court to restrict those people who appear when succession matters are being dealt with. The practice of handling matters in camera exists and ought to be left to the court’s discretion on a case by case basis rather than anchoring the same in law for succession matters only.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, we do not want to dictate to the courts as to when to exclude people when dealing with succession matters in court. We should leave it to the discretion of courts to decide on whether to allow or not to allow presence of parties in that particular situation.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: The Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, we have lawyers here and Hon. Cheptumo is representing them. It is good that this amendment which the Chairman is proposing is deleted. This amendment in the Bill gives the courts that handle succession disputes the discretion to exclude persons who are not members of the court or parties to the case from any proceeding. If you are not the court that is handling the matter and you are not a member of the people who are appearing before that matter, why should you go there? It is giving privacy. It is giving the people who are going to court on succession their rights. The Chair is saying that he wants every Tom, Dick and Harry to join the case, ask for objections and be enjoined.

The import of the amendment in the Bill is very important. What the Chair is doing is good for the lawyers. This amendment is saying that the judge, court and people who are appearing in that succession dispute must be given their space. That is what it is saying. You are saying that we delete it.

I oppose, Chair. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Millie, Member for Suba North before Hon. T. J.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I had a similar amendment and I will explain the import. It is not correct that when cases are heard in camera, it is because people who are demonstrating are coming to look at the succession case. That is usually done in sensitive cases like rape. Otherwise, all proceedings in court are public except the ones for rape. Very few cases are private.

When you look at issues of succession, you will find that it is where someone has died and there is property. You will find that there are children who do not know… Sometimes you have families where there are three or four wives. The first wife goes to court and the second and third families do not know. When it is in the public, everybody knows and can come and claim. When you say that you want to have succession cases in camera, I do not understand. I did not talk to the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

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However, for those of us who are practitioners, it is mind boggling why you would want to have succession cases in camera. Then it means we will be saying that every matter that is in court should be heard in camera. It goes against the rule of law and human rights.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Hon. Members, just relax. Allow Hon. Odhiambo to contribute because she also had proposed the same amendment as the Chair’s. Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, then we shall have Hon. T. J. Kajwang’.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, at the end of the day, this amendment will be put to Question, but we should not misinform the House. This amendment in the Bill which the Chair is deleting simply provides the court handling succession disputes the discretion to exclude persons who are not members of the court. Two, to exclude persons who are not parties to the case from the proceedings related to the administration of a deceased person’s estate. So, there is no camera.

Chair, you need to protect me. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: You are protected.

I listened to her. She must have the courtesy to listen. Rape is not private.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Odhiambo, allow the Leader of the Majority Party to make his contribution.

I must be heard. When she was making her contribution, she said that rape is private. It is not because it is done in public. We shall castrate those men who rape women.

I want Members to listen to me. The amendment also gives the court the discretion to prohibit publication of any matter arising. This piece of legislation came because succession disputes go for over 20 years. They do not end because every day there are new entrances and players. It happens in courts. Hon. Millie and Hon. T.J. have law firms. This is part of your business. If it was about medical issues, Hon. Pukose would have declared interest. We are saying in this Bill and the House will vote on it, that to make succession disputes progress in a timely way, the enjoinment of funny characters and people coming in and asking for adjournment must stop. The court that is handling the case and the parties before it must be given exclusive rights in that case. That is exactly what I am saying in this Bill.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Very well, Leader of the Majority Party. Let us hear a fresh voice on this. Let us hear a voice that has not spoken in this House. Hon. Shinali, Member for Ikolomani.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Protect me from Hon. Millie Odhiambo. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Odhiambo, it is only fair to allow Hon. Shinali to even say what he wants to say before you.

Hon. Shinali, kindly proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I want to say that issues of land succession in this country are very sensitive. You find in most cases, vulnerable families are involved in land succession matters. It is only important and fair

A certified version of this Report that we allow family members and other interested parties to participate and to enjoin themselves in the succession course.

As we allow the courts that are handling the cases to have exclusive rights to admit those people that they feel should be there, I feel it is important to allow all parties that are interested to be enjoined and participate in the proceedings.

Thank you. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Hon. Members, we are all speaking to the same thing. I will give this to the House.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and negatived) We have another amendment by the Member for Suba North, Hon. Odhiambo. She has a similar amendment. We must deal with it.

Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona (Suba North, ODM): Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the only concern I have in terms of my amendment is that I keep hearing the men Members saying they want to be protected from me. Am I that scary? I thought I was beautiful. It should be the other way round. They should be naturally drawn to me as opposed to feeling like they should be protected from me!

Having said that, my amendment is automatically dropped because the Chairman’s is defeated. We are treading on a very dangerous ground. As a lawyer, it actually helps me when it is in camera because I finish very quickly and move to the next case. But we are harming the public with that amendment.

(Proposed amendment by Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona dropped) (Section 49 agreed to)

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the National Youth Service Act, (Cap. 208) by deleting the proposed amendment to section 16.

Already we have had enough scandals. My Committee’s proposal is first to restructure the National Youth Service (NYS) . After restructuring, we will then talk about expanding its mandate. But for now, my Committee proposes to delete and oppose that proposal.

Thank you.

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(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Section 16 agreed to) The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Hon. Millie Odhiambo had the same proposal. Now that the one by the Chair of the Committee has been carried, then automatically, hers is dropped.

(Proposed amendment by Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona dropped) (Provisions relating to the National Youth Service Act, Cap.208 agreed to)

A certified version of this Report Hon. T. J. Kajwang’, that is why I said we pay more attention to this. It is important to all of us.

Hon. Millie, I propose that you deal with your proposed amendments. If they are carried, we shall not have any business to deal with in this particular Act. Therefore, I am allowing you to move your proposed amendments to the Traffic Act first.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. This is the problem I have complained about. When we have many amendments, keeping up with them is a problem. I was actually waiting for the next one. I did not even see that I have one on traffic.

Where is the Chairman of the Committee? Can you advise?

There are Members who are telling me to drop the amendment while others are telling me they support it. I am not dropping it. I will leave it to Members to decide. I am getting varied opinions. Let the House decide.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: You are within your rights, Hon. Millie.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act Cap. 403 by deleting the proposed amendments to —

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, you are fast, but it is good we got you. Some of us are half-eyed.

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We are dealing with traffic matters. It is currently before the nation. The Bill provides for the appointment of inspectors of motor vehicles and designated authorised officers for the purpose of this Act. They are not even recognised. Who is an inspection officer? It also seeks to amend Section 8 to create an offence and proscribe penalty on issuance of insurance cover to a person who is not a registered owner of a motor vehicle. That is very important. Why do you give insurance to a person who does not own the vehicle? Where is the liability?

Thirdly, it seeks to amend Section 39 so that the driving test is conducted by the National Transport and Safety Authority (NTSA). Fourth, it seeks to amend Section 57 to create an offence and prescribe a penalty for driving a vehicle which requires a permit proscribed under the Act. One of the reasons why we have accidents, and more so involving boda boda, it is because boda boda riders are not the ones who secured the insurance. The Chair has looked at these amendments and made sure that he arrived at a middle ground. So, I do not have a problem if we listened to the Chair and see his middle ground. Based on what is happening in the country now, it is important. We cannot delete all these things.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): We shall have contribution from Hon. Tonui and then we shall come to the Chair so that we can make a decision.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I have perused this Bill and I reject the issue of insurance. It takes time to process the transfer of documents. As you process them, you require an insurance cover. So, when it says it must be the registered owner only, that is limiting and it is not welcome. Therefore, I reject this amendment.

Thank you. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Tonui, are you rejecting the proposed amendments by Hon. Millie or the ones by the Chair?

He did not move anything. The one in the Bill…

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: We have not come to that one. Hon. Pkosing, before you finalise on it, let me allow Hon. Kisang to say something.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, what Hon. Tonui is saying is true because sometimes when you buy a motor vehicle, it takes a while before it is transferred to you. It takes between one and two weeks. During that period, you need an insurance cover so that you can use the vehicle.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Millie is proposing to delete all the proposed amendments. We have not yet come to the amendments proposed by the Chair. If you want to make contribution or reject the amendments proposed by the Chair, then hold your horses just a little so that we finish with the ones by Hon. Millie proposing to delete all of them.

Hon. T.J. Kajwang’.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I feel like you have read my heart. I know you wish we could proceed very fast. I have a problem with the Member for Suba North. It is within her rights to go in the direction she has gone. She has said that she is not dropping any proposed amendment, in terms of the Standing Orders. That means we have to go the painful way of getting every section that she is proposing to delete. You will find that there are Members who would want to vote for some sections and vote against others. We probably now have to go the painful route of doing everything.

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The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Hon. Members, so that we may make progress, Hon. T.J. Kajwang’ is correct. We shall now take the painful path.

Hon. Millie.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, when we get to this stage of legislation, it is usually a matter of give and take. If the Chair has a middle ground, I am willing to drop my amendments. This is also to save the House time because we have a very lengthy process. Chair, I drop?

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Thank you very much, Hon. Millie. The proposals by Hon. Millie stand withdrawn.

We shall now deal with the proposed amendments by the Chair of the Committee, Hon. Pkosing. The Traffic Act, Cap.403, Section 2

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act, Cap 403 by -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have explained the import of my amendment on 2 (a) . Let me just read so that it is understood by honourable Members.

“by inserting the following new item immediately after the proposed amendment to section 2—

Delete the definition of the term “driving test examiner”. We have just brought in NTSA. When you say examiner without giving a name, it brings confusion in the parent Act. At the moment, practically, it is NTSA that administers examinations to drivers. I was making it very clear.

(Question, that the words to be inserted

be inserted, put and agreed to)

A certified version of this Report The Traffic Act, Cap.403, Section 3

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act, Cap 403 by -

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act, Cap 403 by -

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support the proposal by the Chair. As Hon. Members have already alluded, the fact that you buy a vehicle does not mean that you transfer it to your name immediately or the following day. For that reason, curtailing people from driving the vehicle on the road because they do not have a valid insurance, it is valid. We should not allow this to slip through our hands.

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(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Section 8 agreed to)

I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act, Cap 403 by –

Our reasons are that the amendment seeks to ensure that NTSA officials do not patrol roads and have power to detain a vehicle carrying any of the loads requiring a permit as prescribed under the Act or the East African Community Vehicle Load Control Act. We are marrying the Traffic Act with the East African Community Vehicle Load Control Act.

(Question, that the words to be left

out be left out, put and agreed to) The Traffic Act, Cap.403, Section 58

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Mover, the Hon. Pkosing. You have a proposed amendment to that.

I have a proposed amendment to Section 70. Sorry, I have for Section 58. I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act, Cap 403 by –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have several proposed amendments. I hoped that we would finish today but apparently we will not. I am forced to leave because I am going on parliamentary duties out of the country. I know that I am supposed to do this formerly which I will do. I have requested Hon.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Before Hon. Millie leaves, we had discussed and canvassed that she drops the two amendments on Kenya Information and Communications Act and Copyright Act.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Kisang, let me consult a little bit on what you are proposing. The Leader of the Majority Party?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chair, of course Hon. Millie has to speak to what she has discussed to be on the HANSARD, but for anybody to take the amendment of a colleague, the procedure is very clear, one writes to the Speaker. It is approved and then she brings it here. Even as we sit here, we have only 20 minutes. You cannot mortgage Hon. Nyikal and Hon. T. J. You have no title over them. The only title you have is a letter approved by the Speaker.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Leader you are speaking to the same thing. Hon. Millie is aware of what she needs to do. We wish her well in her journey out there. The Traffic Act, Cap.403, Section 70

(5B)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act, Cap 403 by –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act, Cap 403 by –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Traffic Act, Cap 403 by -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to section14 of the Kenya Post Office Savings Bank Act by inserting the words “in consultation with the Cabinet Secretary” immediately after the word “Registrar”.

The import of this is that when there is dispute between the bank and an individual depositor there is normally an arbitrator who is appointed by the Registrar of Nairobi Centre for International Arbitration. We are now providing that this arbitrator should work in consultation with the Cabinet Secretary. This role in the parent Act is undertaken by the Cabinet Secretary. Now that it is being moved to the Registrar then he should not do it alone but must consult the Cabinet Secretary responsible for finance matters.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I do not support that amendment because if there is arbitration – arbitration is an ongoing process and we have seen it work – and the Registrar has already appointed an arbitrator, why would he refer again to the Cabinet Secretary per se? I do not think there is any need to refer the matter to the Cabinet Secretary again because you will actually be usurping the role of the Registrar in his mandate to appoint an arbitrator. It means the Cabinet Secretary will have influence on the kind of arbitrator that comes in.

I oppose. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Leader of the Majority Party. Hon. Maanzo, I hear you. I will give you an opportunity. Hon. Tonui, I know.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I think we need to understand. The Bill was to provide for arbitrators in dispute under this Act and shall be appointed by the Registrar of the Nairobi Centre for International Arbitration instead of the Cabinet Secretary. So, the Registrar is appointed by the Nairobi Centre for International

A certified version of this Report Arbitration. What the Committee has done is to provide that the appointment of an arbitrator be done by the Registrar in consultation with the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury. That one is important so that he acts as a check and balance on the Kenya Post Office Savings Bank, which is an entity wholly owned by Government. I think what the Chair is doing is important. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury sits in that board and so he must have a say. I really ask Hon. Milemba to accept that.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Hon. Maanzo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. You know the process of arbitration has a whole Act of Parliament which manages it and it has processes which are conclusive such that whether you introduce the Cabinet Secretary or not, the moment there is an arbitrator in place, the law takes its course and even if an award is not acceptable or has issues, it can be subjected to directions of the High Court. So, I believe whether the Cabinet Secretary does consultation or not, so long as there is an arbitrator in place, there is an Act of Parliament which controls the actions of the arbitrator. So, I support.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Let us have Hon. Tonui followed by Hon. Chachu. I see your interest, Hon. Chachu and Hon Oundo. Organise your thoughts.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I do wish to support the amendment by the Chair because I believe this Registrar can be made too powerful and so he requires some sort of control by having consultation. I believe having the Cabinet Secretary in that process is for the better. Thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I do support this amendment in the sense that these amendments call for transparency and consultation and I think it is in the best interest of this law to really have that transparency element to it. I support.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Oundo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I stand to oppose the amendment because the essence of arbitration is to get an independent party to arbitrate or resolve a dispute between two contracting parties. The Cabinet Secretary sits on the board of the Kenya Post Office Savings Bank. Consequently, being consulted before an arbitrator is appointed is to disadvantage the client who has got a contractual issue against the bank. This is setting a dangerous precedent because what it means is that an arbitrator who is not independent or who is impartial will not be selected.

Hon. Members, allow me to put the overall Question. Order!

Order Members! Hon. Keter, you have just walked in but allow us to conduct this business. Hon. Members, allow me to put the overall Question.

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(Provisions relating to the Kenya Post Office Savings Bank Act, Cap. 493, as amended agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.12 of 2018) up to the Kenya Post Office Savings Bank Act (CAP.493) and its approval thereof with amendments, and seek leave to sit again tomorrow morning.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

(Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu)

: Very well, let us have the Chairperson reporting to the House.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.12 of 2018) up to the provisions relating to the Kenya Post Office Savings Bank Act, Cap. 493 and its approval thereof with amendments and seeks leave to sit again.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Let us have the Mover to move reporting.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said Report. I also request Hon. Washiali to second the Motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of the whole House.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Let me confirm whether the House is procedurally constituted. We are 34. Let me give a chance to two Members. Let us have the Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to thank those who have been here since 2.30 p.m., and those who have just arrived now

A certified version of this Report like Hon. Keter and Hon. Mbadi. It was a good afternoon. We have done up to Section 20 of the Kenya Post Office Savings Bank Act. I hope that tomorrow morning, from 9.30 a.m, we will move so that we finish. We will finish tomorrow in the morning, so that we can slot the Public Investments Committee (PIC) Report and other reports for the afternoon session.

I want to thank the Speaker and the session Chair, Hon. Omulele, for a job well done. I am sure this Committee of the whole House is a serious business of Legislature.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu): I am the Speaker.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I said that change of Chair is sometimes too fast. I did not know you have taken over the Chamber. Hon. Mbadi was with us but he left. He came back a few minutes ago. The cameras can tell that.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) :

He is your counterpart.

Because of the handshake, we agree who remains and leaves these days. Hon. Mbadi, make sure you are here tomorrow in the morning, so that I can go to do some errands in town.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Member for Suba South, when you are on that side, are you the Leader of the Minority Party?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I wanted the Leader of the Majority Party to correct himself. He started by thanking Members who have been here and then he went ahead to mention those who have just arrived, like Hon. Keter; and then mentioned me without clarifying whether I have just arrived. I have been here. Even when I am out of the Chamber, I delegate properly. I leave Hon. Omboko Milemba in charge, supported by Hon. T.J. Kajwang’ and others. The Leader of the Majority Party has left the microphone. I wanted him to clarify that I have not just arrived. I have been around.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Member for Mumias East.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to join the Leader of the Majority Party and to an extent the Leader of the Minority Party in thanking those Members who have actively participated in this Bill. I want to encourage those of us who know the importance of this Bill to come tomorrow at 9.30 a.m. There was a Procedural Motion today in the afternoon. Chances are that Members may easily forget to come to the Chamber because it will be a Thursday Morning. I wanted to use this opportunity to remind Members that tomorrow in the morning at 9.30 a.m, we should all come without subjecting the office of whipping to start requesting Members to come in and participate in these procedures.

I thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Hon. Sankok, comment for one minute.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Order. I have a problem with this and I will not allow it. On record, you are the Member for Endebess. You are not Hon. ole Sankok David.

This card is now reading Hon. Sankok.

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The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu): I cannot allow you to speak with that card.

This is supposed to be my card. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : It is not your card because it is reading Hon. ole Sankok David. Resume your seat.

Let us have the Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I saw Hon. Kaluma yesterday purporting, through fraud, to use my card to speak. This is another incidence today. There must be an investigation by the Powers and Privilege Committee on why Members are using other Members’ cards.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Hon. Pukose, you can use the next microphone.

Is it reading Hon. Sankok or my name? It is my name.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : You had four seconds to contribute. You do not know which card is yours.

Members, I am not in a position to put the Question. Therefore, I order that the Question to the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 12 of 2018) be put tomorrow at an appropriate moment.