Wednesday, 13th August 2025

Serjeant-at-Arms, ring the Quorum Bell. Leader of the Majority Party and your counterpart, where are your Whips?

Hon. Members, we now have a quorum to transact business. Hon. Owen Baya, can you approach the Speaker?

Hon. Members, allow me to recognise Members from the Parliament of Namibia.

Hon. Members, I wish to introduce to you a delegation comprising Members of the Standing Committee of Budget and Finance, from the Parliament of the Republic of Namibia, who are seated in the Speaker’s Row. They are:

Chamber. They are here to witness a presentation of a petition by their Member of Parliament about some forest land.

In the Public Gallery, we have St. Mary’s Kanyaki Pontifical Missionary Children from Chuka Igamba-ng’ombe, Tharaka-Nithi County and St. Dominic Comprehensive School from Kilifi North Constituency, Kilifi County. On my behalf and on behalf of the House, I welcome the students, their teachers and those who are accompanying them to the House of Parliament.

Next Order.

Hon. Sarah Korere.

Hon. Speaker, I rise to present a Petition regarding the revocation of the gazettement of Mukogodo Forest Reserve as a public forest.

I, the undersigned, on behalf of the Il Ngwesi and Yaaku communities in Laikipia North Constituency, draw the attention of the House to the following:

THAT, the Mukogodo Forest Reserve, covering an area of 30,189 hectares, was declared a public forest through Gazette Notice LN.174 of 1964. It is located on the north western side of Mt. Kenya within the expansive plains of Laikipia County; THAT, the Mukogodo Forest borders four areas designated as community land. They are: Il Ngwesi to the southeast, Mayianat to the southwest, Shulumai to the northwest, and Lekurruki to the north. It also neighbours the Borana Wildlife Conservancy. The surrounding communities, including the Il Ngwesi and Yaaku, have safeguarded approximately 10,000 hectares of this forest land since the 14th Century; THAT, in recognition of the forest’s importance as a place of residence, a sanctuary for cultural and religious practices, and a source of livelihood, the Il Ngwesi and Yaaku communities formed the Ilmamusi-Mukogodo Forest Association in 1998 to manage the forest. The Community Forest Association was formally registered in 2008 and became fully operational in 2016 with a duly constituted management committee comprising of 24 members; THAT, due to persistent insecurity, including killings and livestock banditry, the Il Ngwesi and Yaaku communities were forced to flee the forest. As a result, the area has been occupied illegally, leading to widespread destruction of the forest; THAT, the displacement of those communities due to banditry has resulted in the loss of lives and property, disruption of education due to school closures, increased livestock theft, and destruction of the forest's flora and fauna, among other hardships; THAT, the Government’s efforts to address insecurity in the region have been hindered by numerous challenges, including the rugged terrain, lack of full control, and unclear ownership of the Mukogodo Forest; THAT, revoking the gazettement of Mukogodo Forest as a public forest and reclassifying it as a community forest would significantly benefit the Il Ngwesi and Yaaku communities. Those benefits include enhanced control and management of forest resources, increased community participation in conservation, protection of indigenous rights, promotion of devolved natural resource governance, and improved conflict resolution and social cohesion;

THAT, despite repeated efforts by the Il Ngwesi and Yaaku communities to seek redress from relevant authorities, no tangible results have been achieved to date; and, THAT, the issues raised in this Petition are not pending before any court of law, constitutional body or other legal institution. THEREFORE, your humble petitioners pray that the National Assembly, through the Public Petitions Committee:

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Sarah Korere, Member of Parliament for Laikipia North. I have been asked by the Woman Representative for Laikipia County to joyride on that Petition. Go ahead, Hon. Jane Kagiri.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to joyride on that Petition. We may take the Petition lightly, but there have been more than 60 years of the Il Ngwesi and Yaaku communities taking care of Government forest, which is actually not their duty. However, they have done it diligently and with a lot of commitment.

We support the Petition that has been tabled here today because Mukogodo Forest is causing a lot of insecurity in Laikipia County. I believe it is because of the ambiguity of who is supposed to manage that forest. It is our plea that we allow the community to manage the forest because, by them doing so, it is going to create legitimate employment to the people. The cultural practice of our people is that they know what is food, what is medicine and what needs to be sustained and retained in the forest. So, it is our hope and prayer that we give our people the opportunity to manage the forest. I believe they will even ensure that there is security within the area.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Mwenje. Is it on the same Petition?

Hon. Speaker, the issue is still on petitions. I am aware you referred the matter to the Committee on Public Petitions. I wish to bring to your attention that there are so many petitions that are pending and not being prosecuted by that same Committee because of what I believe to be leadership issues within the Committee. Therefore, I would ask for your guidance with regard to that specific Committee because matters are not moving. We have so many petitions that are being referred to that Committee, but we do not have the Committee even sitting to handle those matters.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Did the Committee hold elections? The last brief I got was that they were to hold elections to elect a new chairperson. Did they hold the elections? Who is the new chairperson?

Okay. Hon. Karemba is the new Chairperson. So, Hon. Mwenje, you have heard we now have a Chairperson. I know that previously, we have had serious difficulties in the

management of the affairs of that Committee. We have repeatedly mentioned that problem here. I directed them to up their game. Some time back they did, but, again, they have not. I hope that with the new Chairperson, the leadership will take this work seriously.

I direct that this Petition be forwarded to the Public Petitions Committee.

Hon. Speaker, our Chairperson is not around. As the Vice-Chairperson of the Committee, I would like to say that we have been accused falsely. We have various petitions that are at various stages. Very soon, we will table a number of them once we conclude our retreat that will take place during the recess. So, we are working on the petitions very well.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Sitienei, you know very well that your Committee is the only one that the Speaker has not, once or twice, directed to up its game. So, if you are busy with petitions, that is very good to hear. But we want to see results. There are quite a number of pending petitions.

Yes, Hon. Ruweida.

Ahsante, Bwana Spika. Ningependa pia kuchangia katika huu mjadala wa ardhilhali. Sisi pia tuna petitions zetu kama hizo. Hili limekuwa tatizo sana. Ningependa suala hili liangaziwe kwa kina kwa sababu kama kwetu Lamu Mashariki, asilimia 75 ya Lamu Mashariki ni reserves za maji au misitu. Asilimia 25 peke yake ndiyo imebaki. Hatuna faida nazo. Ni ukoloni mamboleo tu unaendelea. Tunafinywa kabisa. Hawataki kutoa hizo reserves ilhali wananchi wanasumbuka. Wenyeji hawapati faida yoyote lakini wageni wakija wanapewa lease. Haya ni matatizo ambayo yafaa yaangaziwe kwa kina sana. Hata mimi kuna Petition yangu iko kwenye hii Committee.

Ahsante, Bwana Spika.

Yes, Hon. Sunkuli.

Hon. Speaker, apart from the leadership issues of the Committee, can you also consider…

Are you a member of that Committee?

No, Hon. Speaker.

Okay.

Hon. Speaker, you should also consider giving limited responsibilities to that Committee. This is because some of the issues touch on land while others touch on education. I suggest that you refer some of those issues to the committees that the issue is relevant to, and then get matters which are sui generis to the Public Petitions Committee. This is to ensure that the Committee does not have to deal with everything. In my opinion, those other committees can get busy and give us good results.

Yes, Leader of the Minority Party.

Hon. Speaker, the Public Petitions Committee is one of the most important committees in this Parliament. This is the Committee that deals directly with what the public wants, through the Hon. Speaker. Members of the public bring petitions to this Parliament on many things. We never used to have those petitions before, but through the new Constitution, the public was granted an avenue to present petitions here. It is just the incompetence of the Committee; it is not anything else. This is the most important Committee in this House because it deals directly with what touches the people of the Republic of Kenya - their livelihoods and the way they live. For example, it deals with issues of forestry and climate change. People think the most important committee in Parliament is the Budget

and Appropriations Committee. When the former Chairman was removed, I know he felt very bad about it. But that is not the most important committee. I wish he became the Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee. He would have served the nation in a better way than in the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Wangari.

Hon. Speaker, I agree with you that the Public Petitions Committee has been mentioned on this Floor not once or twice, but on various issues. We have discussed it in the Liaison Committee because we feel that there is a problem in that Committee. I wish that the Committee’s Vice-Chairperson, Hon. Sitienei, stops being defensive. You should agree because we have supported you, as the Liaison Committee. We have actually recommended that you get extra staffing, including clerks and researchers, because the Committee deals with diverse issues.

Going forward, because this is a new introduction in this Parliament, I would also echo what Hon. Sunkuli has said. Maybe, at the end of this Parliament, we may need to amend the Standing Orders so that the Hon. Speaker can also get a leeway on which petitions to commit to the Public Petitions Committee and which ones should go to the Departmental Committees. That way, we will make it easier for the Committee to prosecute the petitions.

I hope that this time, because the Committee has a new Chairperson, we will start seeing some reports of petitions. There are some petitions in this House that have been pending for too long. I know the Leader of the Majority Party has engaged you, but my point is very simple: The Committee should not be defensive. We have even discussed the Committee in our meetings as the Liaison Committee. We have actually told the Clerk of the National Assembly to add them clerks and researchers, and he has. Hon. Sunkuli’s point is something we can discuss at the end of this Parliament. This is to ensure that the Hon. Speaker gets a leeway on which petitions to commit to the Public Petitions Committee and which ones he can commit to the Departmental Committees. That will make the work easier for the Committee.

Yes, Hon. Saney. Would you like to speak on the same issue? Give Hon. Saney the microphone.

Hon. Speaker, early last year, I had a

Petition on asbestos roofing in this country, which is of concern to the public. The Petition was

Yes, Hon. Ochanda.

Hon. Speaker, the matter before the House is critical. I entirely agree with what Hon. Wangari and Hon. Sunkuli have said. Many of the issues that some of the Departmental Committees, for example, the Departmental Committee on Lands, used to deal with before, were more to do with petitions. Most of those issues now go to the Public Petitions Committee. In the process, some of the committees are now with lesser work and yet, more work is taken to the Public Petitions Committee.

In the same strength, I would like to joyride on what Hon. Sarah has brought up. This Government has been very prominent in terms of commitment to issues of re-afforestation and tree cover in this country. So, one wonders why a forest in this place can be degazetted and yet

Hon. Ochanda, you missed the point. I approved that Petition on the understanding that Hon. Sarah Korere is not asking to do away with the forest. She is asking for the forest to be degazetted as a Government forest and be gazetted as a community forest. We have many community forests where our hunter and gatherer communities live in harmony around the forests. They preserve forests sometimes even better than forest guards who continue cutting trees and selling timber.

Yes, Hon. (Dr) Makali Mulu.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I want to comment on the issue of petitions. I am asking myself this question: Why do Kenyans petition us as a House?

Speak louder.

The question I am asking myself is: Why do Kenyans petition us through you as a House? The reason is that they have issues that require to be determined urgently. As I support what Hon. Wangari has said, waiting for two years to change the Standing Orders so that we are able to push some of those petitions to the Departmental Committees will be too long for Kenyans. You can use your power as the Speaker of the House to channel some of those petitions to the Departmental Committees for immediate action.

Thank you.

Hon. Rindikiri.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Laikipia North Constituency borders Buuri Constituency, and I share the largest boundary with it. Mukogodo Forest is one the forests that should revert to the community because whenever we have security issues, bandits hide there. The community is better-placed to manage that area. This Petition is very important. We have worked on returning Giitune Sacred and Ngare Ndare Forests to the community, and the process is ongoing. The other forest that we are currently working on together is Mukogodo.

Therefore, Hon. Speaker, it is very important to give it back to the community to uphold corporate responsibility. They are better-placed to manage the forest because, as it is right now, we have traditional trees and grazing is potential in that area. However, the Government is not able to take care of it. The community is willing to do a lot of environmental conservation to preserve those traditional trees. We believe that if this Petition is successful, the community will benefit in the long run; rather than leaving the forest as it is right now.

Thank you. We will end there. Is the Leader of the Majority Party in the House?

Yes.

Leader of the Majority Party and your counterpart, this is not the first time we are having issues with this Committee.

Order, Leader of the Minority Party. Pay attention. Members of the public who are citizens of this country have a choice to go to court, provincial administration or village elders, but they choose to come to the House of Parliament because they have faith in you, as their representatives, to solve their problems. It is a betrayal if that faith is misplaced, and a year later, we are still on a wild goose chase with a Committee whose Chairman is not even in the House at Petitions time. Unlike other Committees, the Public Petitions Committee is listed on the Order Paper every single day. Therefore, the Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee must know that, of all Committees, it is the only one with the privilege of being listed on the Order Paper every single day. The anticipation of the Chairman is that there is a petition every

day. At times, there are petitions, but at other times, there are none. The Chairman must be here to listen to the House and Members and get direction from the Speaker.

You must deal with this situation, Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, I spoke to the Chairman of the Committee, Hon. Karemba, who is newly elected. Unfortunately, he is out of the country on official business. He has indicated that a number of petitions are ready and has communicated the same to the Clerk of the National Assembly. They will be tabling those petitions as soon as he comes back. I was checking whether the Vice-Chairlady was around. Hon. Janet is there and she can confirm that, that is the actual situation.

There are quite a number of petitions. The new administration in that Committee has worked really hard to process many of the petitions. I agree with you, Hon. Speaker. It is not just about Hon. Karemba. You have no reason to sit in your Chair and wait for quorum at 2.30

To whom much is given…

Much is expected.

Much more is expected. We hope that those who have been given the privilege to chair Committees will carry the responsibility that comes with that privilege.

Next Order.

Leader of the Majority Party, I hope the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration is within the precincts of Parliament.

Yes.

Hon. Speaker, before I lay the Papers, allow me the privilege to welcome learners from a school in my constituency, which is my neighbour

at home: St. Dominic Primary School. They are seated in the Public Gallery. I welcome them to follow the proceedings of the House and, more importantly, encourage them to work harder as the school provides a good opportunity for them to realise their dreams. I welcome them to the National Assembly to observe the proceedings.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table:

The Chairperson of the Public Investments Committee on Social Services, Administration and Agriculture, Hon. Wangwe.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table:

Seventh Report of the Public Investments Committee on Social Services, Administration and Agriculture on its examination of financial statements of the following selected State corporations.

Do you have a notice of motion? Although it is not listed, go ahead and give it.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker and apologies. Hon. Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Seventh Report of the Public Investments Committee on Social Services, Administration and Agriculture on its examination of financial statements of the following State corporations, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 13th August 2025.

Thank you, Hon. Wangwe. Hon. Members, allow me to acknowledge, in the Speaker's Gallery, Kieni Delivery Team, Kieni Constituency, Nyeri County. The Member for Kieni Constituency has requested me to give him one minute to welcome his delivery team. Go ahead Hon. Member for Kieni.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to welcome the team that I work with in Kieni Constituency. In the Public and the Speaker's Gallery are men and women from Kieni Constituency, who I know in their own terms and capacities have an equal opportunity to be Members of Parliament at different times. For now, they have given me an opportunity to serve them as their Member of Parliament knowing that they have the capacity to be Members of Parliament.

Hon. Speaker, the team in the House helps us to run the constituency. Today, they had an opportunity to learn the operations of this House. They have been here for quite some time. I thank the whole parliamentary team that has taken them through to know more about legislation, representation and oversight. It has been a good experience for them. I appreciate the fact they have been given that opportunity.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker.

I join you in welcoming them to the House of Parliament. Yes, Hon. Junet.

Hon. Speaker, I wish to seek your indulgence. Sometimes back, I requested for a Communication from you on matters relating to the bicameral Parliament. Hon. Speaker, as you are aware, there were issues that were raised and our colleagues in the Senate went to court.

It is actually pending.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. There is a judgement that was made by the Supreme Court concerning the conduct of the bicameral system. That judgement is very important to us. That is because this is a matter that has been pending since the promulgation of the new Constitution and since the time we have had the National Assembly and the Senate. There are people who are encroaching on other people’s work and territory. Even after the judgement of the Supreme Court, it is in bad faith for the Senate to go back, again, to the Supreme Court so that the Court can review its judgement. That is in bad faith. It is not the National Assembly that went to court; it is the Senate that went to court. They went to the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and ended up in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court made a judgement.

For the Senate to go back to the Supreme Court so that the Supreme Court can review its judgement is really in bad taste and in bad faith. If the Constitution has given them a certain mandate and they are not satisfied with it, the honourable thing to do is that in the next election, they should run for a seat they think has the powers they need. They can run as Members of the National Assembly. They should not encroach on other peoples’ constitutional mandate. As the National Assembly, there are functions that we cannot do because they belong to the Senate. That is very clear. There are functions that belong to the National Assembly and there are functions that belong to governors. I cannot now masquerade as a governor; I can only be a Member of the National Assembly. The Constitution is very clear on that. To make it even better, there was a judgement from the Supreme Court that demarcated boundaries of the two Houses, for example, that a Money Bill can originate only from the National Assembly. When it comes to Bills that concern counties, there must be consultations between the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Speaker of the Senate.

Through the judgement, there is clarity. When I was told the other day that the Senate has filed another petition in the Supreme Court so that the Court can review that judgement, I really felt that is in bad taste. It is undermining the operations of Parliament as a whole. If a Senator feels that the Senate does not have enough work, or does not have enough power, they

should come to where power is. In some of the jurisdictions in the world, the Senate sits quarterly. They sit once in three months to look at issues that concern elderly people and such kind of matters.

(Laughter) I do not want to go in that direction. Let us stick to the judgement of the Supreme Court. Many of our Members here have not read the judgement or have not taken time to go through it. So, Hon. Speaker, I beseech you to condense the judgement in a few words so that next time, we do not encroach on what belongs to old people and what belongs to the youth.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. (Laughter)

Yes, Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, let me join the Leader of the Minority Party in expressing concern over that issue. I want to take a different trajectory because we have been through this since the advent of the bicameral Parliament after the 2010 Constitution in 2013. Unfortunately, Hon. Junet and I were in that first bicameral Parliament, post the 2010 Constitution. This is an issue that every Parliament, since the 11th Parliament, has had to deal with. But I must congratulate you, Hon. Speaker, and the current Speaker of the Senate because in this 13th Parliament, you have endeavoured to make sure that there is not much friction between the two Houses.

However, clearly, there are forces still within the institution of Parliament that do not want peace. Hon. Junet calls them dark forces. They must be very dark forces that do not want peace. There is a clip that circulates on social media where someone says: 'I do not want peace! I want problems!” It looks like there are people within the institution of Parliament, especially the other House, who do not want peace between the bicameral Houses of Parliament.

I said I want to take a different trajectory. Hon. Speaker, you sit at a different place from the Speaker of the Senate. You are the Chairman of the Parliamentary Service Commission. Being the Chairman of the Parliamentary Service Commission and having a bigger representation from this House in the Parliamentary Service Commission, you stand at a pivotal place to ensure that we do not spend any more resources prosecuting cases in courts over issues that, as leaders, we can settle amicably.

Hon. Speaker, it makes no sense for taxpayers’ money that is appropriated by this House to the Parliamentary Service Commission to be expended on lawyers in court to review a matter that has already been resolved by the Supreme Court. If there is no greater wastage of public resources, I do not know what we would call this. I call upon you, Hon. Speaker, as the Chairman of the Parliamentary Service Commission, to call to order the accounting officer in the Senate. He should ensure that no public resources are expended. If Senators want a review of that Supreme Court judgment, let them contribute from their salaries. The provisions of Articles 109, 110 and 111 of the Constitution, extending to Article 114 regarding Money Bills, are so explicit. One need not have attended a law school. I have never been to the law school. I only studied commercial law and the Law of Tort during my Commercial Law in CPA studies.

You studied rudimentary law.

Let me not call it rudimentary law. At least, I studied some commercial law or basic law. Those are basic elements of law. You do

need not be a lawyer to interpret Articles 109, 110, 111 and 114 of our Constitution. How many Bills have we returned from this House because they were introduced with the effects of a money Bill, contrary to Articles 109 and 114 of our Constitution? I agree with the Hon. Leader of the Minority Party. While we await your Communication on that matter, please, as the Chairman of the Parliamentary Service Commission, move to embargo any expenditure related to legal proceedings between the Senate and the National Assembly. If that is not possible, from your position as Chairman of the Commission, we would stand guided, as we appropriate funds to the Commission. We can do what we need to do during the budget-making process, including the supplementary budget, to ensure we do not allocate resources for court expenses on matters that could be resolved here. Thank you.

I do not want to escalate this further. Hon. Robert, I give you one minute.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The issue raised by the Hon. Leader of the Minority Party is important. Since 2010 or 2013, when the new bicameral system began, we have witnessed numerous court cases. There appears to be an attempt to belittle the House of the National Assembly by the Senate. Going to the Supreme Court shows the disrespect they have for the rule of law. How do you go back to the Supreme Court? Why do you not respect the Supreme Court ruling? It is very unfortunate. Our mistake has been trying to babysit the Senate. This is my third term and a recurring problem is that nearly every Bill we pass, they want to make changes. It is important that we stand our ground and not baby them anymore. When they approach the Parliamentary Service Commission for support, they receive it. When they need to go out to the counties, you have supported them. If we allow them to continue, they may request for their own Parliamentary Service Commission. Hon. Speaker, put your foot down. Let us treat them as equals to the National Assembly, not superior to us.

Thank you. I will give you direction in due course. Thank you, Hon. Junet, for the reminder on something you had raised earlier. They know that they are wrong. That is why they are attempting to draft a Constitutional (Amendment) Bill, to try and interfere with matters that are so clear in the Constitution. I can assure you, they will get nowhere. I shall give you direction. You could call it ‘dead on arrival’.

Allow me to acknowledge learners from Furaha Junior School from Kipkelion East, Kericho County. I welcome them to the House of Parliament. Feel at home. Hon. Wangari. The Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, you can bring in the Cabinet Secretary after Hon. Wangari’s Statement.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (b) as read together with Standing Order 179 (14) , I rise to make a

Statement regarding the conduct of election of select committees. Standing Order 179(14)

Chairpersons for the Public Petitions Committee and the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee.

Vice-Chairpersons for the Departmental Committee on Regional Development and the

Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity.

Committee on Regional Development.

I similarly congratulate them and wish them well, particularly the Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee. I hope he will bring a difference to that Committee.

Hon. Bowen.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Security regarding the disappearance of Mr. Kimutai Bethuel Chesir, National ID No.11339697.

On 7th August 2025, Mr. Kimutai Bethuel Chesir, National ID No. 11339697, a resident of Marakwet East, was forcibly abducted by unknown assailants under unclear circumstances. This incident was promptly reported at Kaptagat Police Station and recorded under OB No.28/7/8/2025. However, despite the official report, Mr. Chesir’s whereabouts remain unknown to date and, distressingly, neither his family nor the public have received any substantive updates from the relevant security agencies. The enforced disappearance has caused profound distress to his immediate family and the people of Marakwet East Constituency. It has also intensified existing concerns regarding the safety and security of our citizens, and the adequacy of the Government’s response.

It has been five days since the person disappeared and his whereabouts remain unknown. This has caused distress to the family, raising questions regarding the protection and

fundamental rights guaranteed under Article 29 of our Constitution. The lack of transparency, accountability, and prompt action not only erodes public confidence in the security institutions, but also threatens the very fundamental foundations of our democracy. Enforced disappearances contradict the principles of the rule of law and democratic governance to which the nation is committed.

It is against this background that I request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Security on the following:

Hon. Gonzi Rai, let me finish with this request for a statement first. Hon. Tongoyo, you have heard the request. The Cabinet Secretary is also here. Can you bring a response? If his claim that the man was abducted by armed hoodlums is true, then his life is in danger. Can you bring a preliminary report on Tuesday?

Hon. Speaker, I will take advantage of the presence of the Cabinet Secretary, who I am sure has heard the request. Maybe we can process a preliminary response and present it on Tuesday. We will present a more comprehensive one after we come back from recess.

Once we confirm that he is alive and he is reunited with his family, the details of his disappearance can come later.

The Cabinet Secretary is listening as well.

Hon. Gonzi Rai, is your question on the disappeared person?

Yes, the abducted person.

Take your seat. I will give you an opportunity to ask a question at some point. Hon. Bowen, I have directed that a preliminary response be brought on Tuesday afternoon.

Hon. Speaker, the Cabinet Secretary is here. Maybe, he has a clue.

No! That is an ambush. The Committee will bring a response on Tuesday. We will ask the Cabinet Secretary many questions but, if he is gratuitous enough and has the facts, he can respond. You come from the same county.

Yes, Hon. Tongoyo?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Hon. Bowen’s issue has been sorted. I request your indulgence. A Petition was written to this House by two petitioners from Narok County.

We are way past petitions.

That is why you saw me consulting with the Clerks-at-the-Table.

Can you raise it tomorrow? Please, raise it tomorrow. We are now on a different Order. Sometimes, when your colleagues do not ‘catch the Speaker's eye’, they walk

up to the Chair to alert the Speaker that they have a burning issue and I give them an opportunity to raise it. You can do that next time.

Hon. Saney, what is itching you?

Thank you for your kindness, Hon. Speaker. During the last Sitting, the Temporary Speaker, Hon. Wangari, instructed that there should be an addendum to today's list of Questions for the Cabinet Secretary. That addendum on a missing person in Wajir North is not listed. I seek your indulgence that I be allowed to ask the same.

I will allow you to do so at an appropriate time. Cabinet Secretary, welcome to the House. We are now in the Question Time. Hon. Members, I had earlier directed that the Cabinet Secretary for Education will also be present. He has indicated that he is closing some public event in Meru, and has requested that we indulge him to come to the House at a different time. In any case, the Question that was to be directed to him was about the event that is ending today, and why the children who went to Meru were not facilitated.

But be that as it may, the matter remains alive. I have been advised by the Leader of the Majority Party that he may move the House to sit for the whole of next week. If he does so, Hon. Owen Baya, you are directed to invite the Cabinet Secretary for Education on Wednesday afternoon next week to respond to that issue.

Hon. Mejjadonk, I will give you three minutes to present your request for a statement very quickly. Give him the microphone.

Hon. Speaker, I rise pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) to request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education regarding the status of conversion of Esvack Community School in Embakasi Central Constituency to a public primary school.

Esvack Community School is the only school serving the densely populated area of Matopeni/Spring Valley Ward in Embakasi Central Constituency. For many years, the school has been sustained through the efforts and sacrifices of the local community and well-wishers.

However, due to the growing financial challenges against increasing demand, the community is no longer in a position to support the institution's operational sustainability. Following several community meetings to chart the way forward on the sustainability of the school, a resolution was made around June 2024 that the ownership and management of the school should formally be transferred to the national Government. The resolutions and supporting documentation, including minutes and official correspondences, were duly submitted to the Sub-County Director for Education and the Deputy County Commissioner, requesting the necessary administrative actions to convert the school into a public primary school.

Despite that clear community consensus in public interest and procedural compliance, the process of converting the school remains incomplete. As a result, the school continues to struggle operationally and financially, thus threatening the right to education for children who are currently enrolled at the school. Most critically, interventions to upgrade its infrastructure through public resources, including from the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) , cannot be made since the school remains categorised as a community institution.

It is against this background that I request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education on the following:

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you, Hon. Mejjadonk. Is the Chairperson or Vice-Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education present? Deputy Leader of the Majority Party, there you are again! Your Chairpersons are missing.

Hon. Speaker, we can do this. It is a simple matter and Hon. Melly will dispose of it by Tuesday. I will be in touch with him.

Tuesday afternoon.

Now, let us go to Questions. The first one is Question 8/2025 by Hon. Kimani Kuria, the Member for Molo Constituency.

Cabinet Secretary, welcome to the House. You are not a stranger here. You are a former Member of the other House, and you have been here many times. You are welcome to answer questions precisely and concisely. Members, today I will be very strict. On every Question, I will allow only one supplementary question and one joyrider. No more.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration the following Question:

Could the Cabinet Secretary—

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. Let me start by apologising for being unable to attend the last two sessions as per your invitation. I thank the House for the indulgence and for allowing me to attend to the other national security duties, including an engagement with the President of Uganda. You know that any time I am invited to come to the House, I take great joy and appreciation. I have great support for this august House and utmost respect for its duties and my responsibilities to appear before you.

Apology taken. Now answer the Question. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Part one of the Question is on the state of security in the country, including steps being taken by the National Police Service

(NPS)

to avert death and destruction of property during demonstrations. Since last year, the country has witnessed a series of protests across various counties, following calls for anti-Finance Bill demonstrations, which culminated in the protests of 25th June 2024 and resulted in an unfortunate fatalities and destruction of property. In 2025, despite a general return to normalcy, political actors renewed online mobilisation efforts, calling for fresh demonstrations. Mobilisation was largely conducted through social media platforms using hashtags such as #OccupyStateHouse, #OccupyEverywhere, #SiriNiNumbers, #77NiNumbers, among others.

Despite the advice by police commanders, no prior notification was submitted to the police by the organisers as required by law. Consequently, NPS only became aware of the planned protest through the media, prompting the police to prepare the necessary security plans to maintain public safety and restore order. In other cases, some organisers assured security agencies that the demonstrations would be peaceful. However, contrary to those utterances and assurances, the protests quickly escalated into chaos and violence, culminating in incidents of looting, arson and widespread destruction of public and private property. The protests were further characterised by widespread acts of lawlessness, which led to torching of nine police stations and posts, deputy county commissioner’s offices and court buildings. In addition, numerous supermarkets and private business premises were vandalised and looted, thus resulting in significant economic losses and disruption of essential services.

In particular, during the Saba demonstrations, 25 lives were lost and 45 civilians and 170 police officers were injured. Key among the Government offices and premises that were damaged in the two demonstrations include the Assistant Chiefs’ Office, Molo Ward Administrator’s Office and Molo Railway Station in Nakuru County, Office of the Kisii Woman Representative, the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) and Sagana Administration Block.

On 25th June 2025, we regrettably lost lives and close to 600 others were injured, including 496 law enforcement officers. Public facilities also bore the brunt of the destruction, including Dagoretti Police Post, where criminals stole guns and razed residential buildings housing police families. In Kikuyu, a mob attacked Government offices, torching Kikuyu Police Station, the Sub-County Headquarters, National Registration Bureau offices, county government offices, the Assistant Chief’s Office, the Kenya Forest Service Office, Kikuyu Law Courts as well as Dagoretti Police Lines. They also partially destroyed the Kikuyu Sub-County Probation Office and damaged four motor vehicles belonging to Dagoretti Police Post, including that of the officer-in-charge.

Other property destroyed in the Dagoretti Police Post include three probox vehicles, one double cabin, a county government vehicle, a school bus and a 14-seater matatu that were parked within the police station. Five guns were also stolen in Dagoretti Police Post and other four firearms were burned in Gachie Police Post. One of the guns that was stolen in Dagoretti on 25th June 2025 was used to commit a robbery in Naivasha the following day.

Further, on 25th June 2025, a rowdy group of youths attacked Matuu Police Station, leaving eight officers injured and several Government vehicles damaged. The building housing the station was also destroyed. Eighteen suspects were charged in connection with this particular attack.

In Machakos County, 66 suspects linked to the torching of a gas tanker along Kitui Road on 7th July 2025 were arrested and charged. In another attack, arsonists invaded and burned Ol Kalou Police Station, killing three suspects who were in custody. They also torched 26 vehicles, 18 county government motorbikes, burned down an exhibit store and destroyed a

reporting office. In Nakuru County, Viwandani Patrol Base in Naivasha was burned while a firearm loaded with 20 rounds of ammunition was snatched by criminals at Shauri Moyo. Several other security installations across the country were attacked, leaving citizens exposed. A total of 16 police stations and posts were either burned or destroyed on the two days of terror.

In Naivasha, goons looted stocks from Naivas, Power Star and Khetias supermarkets and, thereafter, set ablaze Power Star Supermarket. A total of 100 people were arrested and charged with various crimes in relation to those acts of criminality.

In Ruiru, within Kiambu County, a similar fate befell Quickmart and Carrefour supermarkets, where goons stole property worth millions of shillings after breaking windows and destroying CCTV cameras in the establishments. A total of 86 arrests were made in relation to the crimes committed and various charges were preferred. Naivas Supermarket in Nyeri town was also broken into and goods worth millions of shillings carted away. Twenty one (21) suspects have been arrested in connection with that crime. On the same day, a group of rioters invaded Mountain Mall within Kasarani area in Nairobi County and looted goods from Naivas Supermarket and other shops at the mall. Three suspects were arrested and arraigned accordingly. At Githurai 44, another set of criminals invaded Kassmatt Supermarket.

In Eldoret, goons broke into Khetia Supermarket and stole goods worth millions of shillings. Twelve suspects were arrested and arraigned. In Meru, a group of thugs set ablaze Magunas Supermarket using suspected petrol bombs. The criminal elements also stole alcoholic drinks from 7/11 Bar. Selenite Supermarket was not spared the looting and mayhem. Forty suspects were arrested in Meru in relation with those criminal acts. In Kirinyaga County, 21 suspects linked to the looting at Nice Supermarket in Mwea Town were arraigned. Gangs also torched the Kirinyaga Central National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) offices, leading to the arrest and arraignment of four suspects. In Kigumo Town, mobs broke into County Supermarket and stole goods worth millions of shillings. Two suspects were arrested and arraigned in connection with that incident.

In another incident, Hon. Speaker, marauding gangs stormed the operating theatre of the Kitengela Sub-County Hospital, interrupting an emergency caesarean section and terrorising patients and medical staff. Two suspects were arrested and arraigned in court. Evidently, all those events were well orchestrated and coordinated by certain actors with the intention of inciting unrest, destabilising public order, and undermining national stability. In light of this evolving landscape of demonstrations and, more so, the violent nature of the protests that proved to be a threat to national security, the National Police, being constitutionally mandated to enforce law and order, responded by implementing measures to forestall violence and damage to property. The role of the police in managing demonstrations is guided by the Constitution of Kenya 2010, the Public Order Act Cap. 5(6), and the National Police Service Act of 2011. Article 37 of the Constitution of Kenya provides that everyone has a right to assemble, demonstrate, picket and present petitions to public authorities peacefully and unarmed. However, this right is not absolute and is subject to limitations provided for under Article 24 of the Constitution, which permits reasonable and justifiable limitations in a democratic society, such as to protect public order, public safety, and the rights of others. The Public Order Act also provides the same. I have reproduced at length the various provisions of the Public Order Act, and I do not wish to read any further as the statement will be circulated.

Members of the public are required to present a notification to police officers at least three days before any such demonstrations, but not more than 14 days before the event. This must be in writing, indicating who is coming to protest, the names, the estimated number, the routes, and so forth. The police may acknowledge the same, and this is not done to give the right to demonstrate, but basically to ensure that the police officers are prepared to provide security during such demonstrations.

On part two of the Question, the

abetting unlawful acts, unlawful possession of ammunition, and unlawful possession of tear gas canisters. Investigations to identify additional financiers and mobilisers of the protests and arraign them before the court are ongoing.

I submit.

The first shot goes to the Questioner. Hon. Kimani, are you satisfied? If you are, let us give way to somebody else.

I think the Statement is quite comprehensive, but we really urge the National Police Service to make sure there is protection of lives and property. The rights of protesters should be protected, but so should the rights of other citizens. This issue of attacking people and their personal property because of a national matter must really come to an end. It is very unfortunate, and we are hoping that the Cabinet Secretary will put all the necessary efforts to make sure that, as much as the rights of the protesters are protected, the properties and the rights of other citizens are protected as well.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Let us have Hon. Robert Mbui before I come to you.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I do sympathise, of course, with the rights of people being trampled on and the property being destroyed. I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary - because he has been on record on those matters - how he will deal with police officers that would shoot demonstrators when it is on record that none other than the President, yourself, and a high-ranking member of this House have actually given instructions to police officers to shoot on sight?

Hon. KJ.

Hon. Speaker, I thank you. I must commend Waziri for the response that he has made to the House. Allow me to say that, as a country, we should not be like the warthog that forgets too quickly. I think there is commendation that needs to go to Waziri, being the most immediate former Cabinet Secretary for Sports, for being able to play a part in delivering African Nations Championship (CHAN) , delivering the elections at Football Kenya Federation (FKF) , getting us a good team, and the results that we are seeing. Waziri, you deserve some accolades for the work you did in your short stint as Cabinet Secretary for Sports. We are seeing the results. Thank you very much.

As Waziri has indicated, Dagoretti South Constituency received a disproportionately higher share of the violence, especially on 25th June last year, 25th June this year, and on Saba Saba Day, that is 7th July. This happens in part because, being in Nairobi, when there are protests, some of our officers are deployed in the city centre, and some of our institutions are left exposed. I commend Waziri because on the following day, he was in Dagoretti. He was on the ground and made responses.

My question is in two parts: Could Waziri tell us what it will take for us to get officers at Muthua Police Station? Muthua Police Station is not far from Dagoretti Police Station. Dagoretti Police Station carries our name, but administratively, it is in Kikuyu. However, in the absence of Kengongo, which we call Dagoretti Police Station, that whole area is now totally exposed. The people of the area have given land, and the constituency, through the National Government Constituency Development Fund (NG-CDF) , has already constructed a police post at Muthua. That police post would serve as a good centre for security officers if only some officers were deployed there, together with the strengthening of Matini Police Station. The stations are already complete. I need to know from Waziri what it will take to have police officers deployed to Muthua Police Station, and to increase police officers and equipment, such as cars, at Matini Police Station.

I thank you, Hon. Speaker, for allowing me to joyride on this Question.

Hold on, Cabinet Secretary. Hon. Mukunji.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I am one of those people who were arrested during the Saba Saba demonstrations. I was on my way through the Thika Route, and police officers, close to 40 of them, appeared from nowhere, arrested me without telling me what I had done. They intimidated me and took me to a police station in Gatundu. Without even recording anything in the Occurrence Book, I was placed alone in a cell. Anyone who came to ask whether I was there was told I was not around. It was not until around 7.00 p.m., when I heard people shouting outside, that I shouted from the cell to say I was in that police station, without knowing exactly what had been recorded.

I have listened to the Cabinet Secretary, and I feel sad because, while the Statement…

Ask him a question. It is Question Time.

While the Statement talks about the hard work that he is doing, there is use of demonstrations to fight political opponents. I want to ask Waziri to be genuine on matters concerning fighting criminals. I want him to tell me under what circumstances the people who were found in demonstrations, and where destruction of property occurred, should be handled. I say pole to anybody who has lost property during that time. However, there is a squeeze and push on intimidation…

You are making a statement instead of asking a question. This is Question Time.

I am getting to the question, Hon. Speaker.

I have given you time to ask him a question.

I want to ask Waziri whether, while giving statistics, he is aware that many young people in Kahawa are being charged with terrorism. Of course, that is a case under court and cannot be discussed, but I want to ask him the following: Is he genuine in pushing for such enormous charges; charges that we know are given to people like Osama Bin Laden?

Osama Bin Laden was never charged anywhere.

But he was a terrorist, as we know, just like Al Shabaab and others.

We have no evidence.

Kahawa Law Court is known to be a special court. When you are taken there, it means you are either being charged with terrorism or drug trafficking. I want Waziri to be genuine and ensure that while he is dealing with demonstrations, he is not using the process against political opponents and is not being misused to fight political opponents.

Cabinet Secretary, you can answer that now. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, let me first start by appreciating the questions that have been raised and thank Hon. Kimani for reiterating that we must put in a lot of effort to protect both protesters and those who do not wish to engage in protests, by ensuring their properties are safe. I take the comment from Hon. Kimani very seriously.

On the question of how to deal with police officers who shoot and kill people, as Hon. Robert Mbui has raised, the Constitution and the law provide for instances of limitation of the right to life. It is very clear in both the Constitution and the law. I issued a directive to the Inspector-General of Police, my first of that kind, which is Policy Directive No.1 of 2015 on the use of force and the use of firearms. In that Directive, I made it clear in writing, to reiterate what I had verbally pronounced when I was in Kikuyu, that police officers have a right to protect themselves when their lives are in danger or when the life of any citizen is in danger. I also explained how they can use force, why they must not use excessive force where there is no danger to life, and what measures the National Police Service should take. This includes deploying only mentally sound officers - officers who are not undergoing stressful incidents

and do not have mental health challenges. I also said that protective gear must be given to police officers.

Further, I explained that it is necessary for the National Police Service, working together with the Attorney-General, to ensure that they protect police officers who may be sued or investigated as a result of protecting themselves and their lives. We have commenced that process, and all police officers facing investigations or charges for using force or firearms while performing their lawful duties now have the right to be represented by the Attorney-General or lawyers from the National Police Service.

I made the statement consciously knowing that the responsibility to hold police officers accountable lies with the Independent Policing Oversight Authority (IPOA), while the Ministry has the policy responsibility to ensure that police officers are responsible. In our Jukwaa la Usalama Forum, where we meet all OCSs, sub-county commanders, county commanders and county security teams, I have made it clear that police officers should be respectful to the people of Kenya. They should not apply excessive force and should protect themselves when their lives are in danger. I know this conversation is in the context of peaceful areas like Nairobi and other parts, but when I went to places like Samburu, Tana River, Turkana, Elgeyo Marakwet and Baringo, the conversation changed. In life-threatening environments where police officers operate, the use of force becomes different. If you are on the border of Kitui and Tana River, facing serious acts of banditry with heavily armed attackers invading police stations and targeting civilians, perspectives on the use of force change quickly. This happens even for political leaders when you take them to Malaso Valley, Lependera or similar parts of this country. I gave uniform direction not just for protests, but for all instances that the police may face.

To Hon. Mbui, as a lawyer, I am conscious and aware of my constitutional responsibilities. I ensured that the directive was documented, allowing any citizen who wishes to hold me accountable, whether in a court of law or Parliament, to reference it.

Regarding Muthua Police Station, I would like to first thank my friend, Hon. KJ, as we are both sports enthusiasts, and he reminds me of my brief involvement in the sports sector. I take this opportunity to ask him to assist us in ensuring that fans adhere to the CAF rules on Sunday. I am very pleased with the efforts that were made by Hon. Ababu and the ongoing work by Hon. Mvurya. Concerning the police station, I assure the Member that once he establishes a police station, we will support him and deploy police officers. Although we are currently facing challenges with our strength while waiting for recruitment, we can engage in conversations together and facilitate discussions between you and the Office of the Inspector- General (I-G) to explore the possibility of deploying officers to that police station, thus providing support for the Dagoretti and King'ong'o areas in the meantime.

Many human rights activists and individuals have questioned why police officers do not address those matters. It is important to note that when the Dagoretti Police Station was burned, the police lines were also destroyed, where officers lived with their families. Everything they owned was burned. Many police officers were forced to jump over the fence and were rescued and protected by the community on the other side. Consequently, many of those officers are now traumatised. We had to arrange for counselling and give them a break. The jurisdiction that was covered by that police station is now void. We will work in collaboration with the Member of Parliament from Dagoretti, even though the other side falls within the Kikuyu Constituency in Kiambu County...

Police officers do not recognise county boundaries when they are enforcing the law. Therefore, we can hold discussions with the Inspector-General and support Hon. KJ upon the conclusion of my presentation here.

Hon. Mukunji has raised a personal issue regarding a matter that is currently before the court. I am quite hesitant to say much, as I believe Hon. Mukunji understands that I am not a

judge, and he has the option to pursue his case either here in Parliament or in a court of law. Therefore, opening a can of worms can prejudice the trial, which concerns his right to a fair trial. However, I must emphasise that the National Police Service (NPS) does not arrest individuals for political reasons. The Inspector-General is not a politician. The DCI is not a politician and the National Police Service is not a political party. There are no political scores to be settled. They perform their duties independently and constitutionally to ensure the protection of the people of Kenya.

Cabinet Secretary, do you want to be informed? The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: No. I am sufficiently informed.

The Cabinet Secretary is not a debater in the House. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: As per the Standing Orders, I cannot be informed.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

What is your point of order?

Is the Cabinet Secretary in order to say that police officers do not arrest politicians, while he is on record crying that he was being harassed by the regime in the last Parliament? He even said that his people were being harassed and arrested by the police officers.

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: The Cabinet Secretary is not here as a former Senator, but in his capacity as a Cabinet Secretary. I am not here to answer my questions but those that have been asked by Members.

Leave history to history books. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Without delving into Hon. Mukunji’s case, I wish to remind the House that Section 2 of the Prevention of Terrorism Act defines “terrorist act” as an act or threat of action—

terrorist. Actions such as invading a police station, burning a court, supermarket or Government installation, creating fear, or disrupting emergency services like medical aid and transport, constitute terrorism. The only step left is for the court to determine whether Hon. Mukunji is culpable. The acts themselves, particularly those involving financing, are even more serious.

Hon. Speaker, those matters may seem laughable until the day of conviction. It is all jokes and fun until you are convicted of terrorism, at which point you realise the serious consequences it brings to you and your loved ones. So, I wish my friend the very best. When I first met him in Parliament, he appeared to be like a pastor, and I was surprised to learn that he was suspected of such serious and heinous acts.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Mark Mwenje. Question 09/2025

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to ask Question 9 of 2025.

Could the Cabinet Secretary explain the following:

who concluded that the cause of death was craniovertebral injuries due to severe blunt force trauma. Investigations are ongoing to unravel the circumstances of the injuries and possible suspects.

On measures that have been put in place to ensure that the family of the victim is compensated for the loss of their kin, recently, the Government has established a formal mechanism to coordinate compensation for victims of demonstrations and riots held across the country. This presidential initiative will be coordinated by the Office of the President and will be supported by the Ministry of Interior and National Administration and the Office of the Attorney-General.

Regarding the steps that are being taken by the Government to prevent similar incidents from occurring in the future and to guarantee safety, including protection of peaceful protesters during demonstrations, let me first say, every time we come and read such stories, it is not just a story. There are people behind it. There are families, wives, children, mothers, fathers, uncles, aunties, other relatives and the community. It is very painful and sometimes demoralising to keep reading such kind of unfortunate deaths.

As Parliament, it is important for us to think of a way that, going forward, we can possibly have properly coordinated and legally regulated protests - that we have processes that are regulated in terms of the place, time and then we can provide resources, including police officers to escort the people. Can we, for once, have mandamano that ends with police and citizens shaking hands as they go home? It does not matter who was in the office. The overall party leader of Hon. Mbui, who had asked a question earlier, was the president just the other day, and it did not matter the side where we were or where the other are at the moment. For once, as Parliament and a political circle, in a bipartisan manner, can we find ways of ensuring that protests are peaceful in Kenya? That is all that bothers me every day.

Police officers are not politicians. They are not pursuing a particular political agenda, but every time protests happen, they are the ones who are the most discussed. They also find themselves having committed offences or suspected of committing the same. They are tired; they have to be in the streets for over 24 hours. Innocent young people are also losing their lives. Children are left fatherless. It is not acceptable. We just have to agree as a nation, somehow, in a bipartisan manner, that we can find a mechanism that makes protests peaceful.

What pains us the most as a Ministry is that every time we announce that whoever is preparing protests to inform us the time and the route, we are the same elected leaders who go public and say that our rights cannot be regulated. That we will protest anywhere, anytime and the way we want, but neither us nor our children get injured in those protests. We have to think about how best we can deal with this issue. Of course, apart from an exception of Hon. Mbui and a few others. I know that is where Hon. Mbui was going to go, with whom I sympathise with the situation he went through last time. In most cases, it is the poor people who end up fatherless and suffer.

The Government remains committed to complying with existing laws governing public order management and adhering to policy directives on the use of force through the following measures. First, is the continuous training and professional development programmes for police officers, which focus on evolving trends and specialised techniques for riot management and other relevant areas to enhance operational effectiveness during demonstrations.

Second, is the utilisation of tools such as Closed-Circuit Television (CCTV), surveillance, drone monitoring, digital communication systems and incidental mapping to monitor crowds, track real threats in real time and coordinate timely interventions, thereby improving the effectiveness of law enforcement during protests.

Even as the National Police Service (NPS) prepares for the same, I want to thank businesses across the country that have installed their CCTVs. Out of the 1,500 people arrested, most of them were arrested as a result of CCTV cameras that are privately owned, and which

helped us see the people who looted supermarkets and committed certain offences. Of course, the media and citizen journalism also helped. One of this includes the incident which I will answer to later about a young unarmed man who was shot. So, the presence of technology can be of great help.

Additionally, there is engagement with community leaders, like Civil Society Organisations (CSOs) and the Nyumba Kumi Initiative to ensure that there are early warning systems.

Also, there is issuance of advanced public advisories and use of media engagement to promote peaceful demonstrations and one against unlawful activities. We have been engaging the media to also exercise a lot of restraint and become responsible when they are reporting.

We are also leveraging on the use of advanced real-time intelligence informer networks and surveillance systems to identify planned disturbances and criminal actors before mobilisation, hence arresting and prosecuting persons who engage in criminal activities that undermine law and order, including the planners and the financiers.

I thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Mwenje.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response. Although there is an assumption that all victims of police brutality died by a bullet, my follow-up supplementary question seeks to ask the Cabinet Secretary to just confirm that it is true there are youths who died during the protests and whether some of them died as a result of beatings.

In Nairobi, there was a special unit of goons who were operating with the police. Unfortunately, that team beat some of those youths, and Brian was one of them. There is even a video of him in town protesting at the time. He was beaten by the police and, unfortunately, died painfully much later in the day. I just want him to confirm that Brian and other victims will also be compensated at the right time.

Hon. Oundo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I just wish to ask this Cabinet Secretary what measures have been put in place to ensure that the NPS or the police adhere to High Court judgment or directive that requires any policeman assigned for purposes of riots or demonstrations to be easily identifiable; that is by having a name tag, no face masks, no hoods to conceal their identity, and they should be in uniform. We have seen so many plainclothes people, and nobody knows whether they are security men, hooligans or ‘terrorists’, as he calls them, working hand in hand with the police. They are the ones who are responsible for most of the deaths and injuries to those innocent demonstrators.

Hon. Basil.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary…

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Sorry! I thought you said ‘Waziri’.

My name is synonimised ‘Waziri’. I am sorry. Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me the chance to ask my question. I also thank the Cabinet Secretary. I am happy that you are going to compensate the two victims from Matuu who lost their lives. Can you clarify whether you will compensate those who lost their property?

Hon. Caroli Omondi.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Could the Cabinet Secretary confirm to the House that the established compensation mechanism will also

cover police officers who were injured during the demonstrations, and that the list of civilians to be compensated will be prepared largely by Non-Governmental Organisations (NGO), including the Independent Medical Legal Unit (IMLU), Voice Africa, and the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights (KNCHR), to avoid discrimination?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, first, let me say that there are people who have died in the demonstrations, not as a result of bullets, but from different injuries. There were hooligans carrying stones, machetes, rungus and other crude weapons, making it difficult to know whether a person was injured by a police officer or a civilian. We do not have a wing of police officers who are goons. I shall respond to another statement on the same matter. Police officers sometimes find themselves between two warring demonstrating groups: some claiming to be for peace, and others protecting property. Police officers are those gazetted and properly appointed to serve in the Republic of Kenya. I insist that any loss of life is regrettable. None of us is here celebrate.

Hon. Speaker, it does not matter the circumstances under which life was lost. Even if it was a robber who died, it is still a loss of life. If it was possible to arrest that robber, they might have changed and became a different person. There is no celebration of any loss of life. It is regrettable whether the person was committing an offence or not. We must remember that a child may be a robber, but their family is not, and they will still miss their loved one. If we apply compassion in all those cases, we will appreciate that any loss of life is painful to someone.

On the identification and deployment of police officers in protests, there are different formations of officers deployed. You cannot say that a police officer should not wear a helmet. Most police officers worldwide wear uniforms, which include helmets. A helmet conceals an officer more than a mask. Any court order that says all officers should wear uniform is complied with when they wear helmets. Officers in the Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI) do not have uniforms. They are always in civilian clothing and are deployed to protests to collect evidence as incidents happen. They do not have to wait until an incident occurs. All deployments in protests in Kenya, at least to the best of my knowledge and during my time in office, have been done according to the police standing orders and the law. Nothing has breached the law.

Cabinet Secretary, you seem to be importing a new word into the description in Article 37 of the Constitution, which we wrote at Bomas. It talks of assembling, demonstrating, picketing and presenting petitions. Where are you getting “protests” from? A demonstration is not necessarily a protest.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, if I am not wrong, the English definition of protest would include picketing and demonstrations. If we have to stick to Article 37, then I can say demonstrations but, sometimes, what we witness in Kenya are not necessarily demonstrations.

The moment it becomes a riot, it ceases to be a demonstration. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Yes. Protests may not be negative, but when they become riots, they cease to be constitutional. In most cases, they start as demonstrations and are later taken over by riots.

I was at the stage of identification. On deployment of police officers, sometimes there has been judicial overreach. Courts have said that when deploying police officers to any operations, they must be seen and identified. Such decisions are made by judges in the comfort of their offices in Milimani with air conditioning. When officers are deployed to Liboi, Kibish, Lamu or Kiunga, there are other considerations to protect them. It is not a straight-jacket matter.

Courts sometimes make decisions they cannot enforce. For example, dictating police dress when fighting Al Shabaab, yet the judge will not be there to monitor it. This is a sensitive area. Across the arms of Government, there must be an understanding of national interest beyond sectarian or political competition.

On compensation for loss of property, the President’s directive in establishing the compensatory mechanism does not include property. I believe that is for a good cause. Valuing destroyed property, such as a supermarket in Meru or looting at the Overseas Trading Company (OTC), could take the entire Ministry of Interior and National Administration budget. This would encourage criminals to destroy property in anticipation of compensation. The mechanism is out of compassion, focusing on loss of life, which can never truly be compensated. In my view, the term “compensation” is a compassionate support, as no amount of money can bring back life.

I will tie that to the question on the compensation mechanism raised by Hon. Caroli Omondi. I can confirm that it covers police officers who are injured or killed in those incidents since 2017. The President’s Advisor on Constitutional Affairs and Human Rights, Prof. Makau Mutua, will coordinate a team to establish a fair process for identifying victims. This will require consultations with all relevant institutions as raised by Hon. Caroli Omondi. Given Prof. Mutua’s background in civil society, I have no doubt that his experience will be valuable. However, it will not be an easy task, especially in a country where, after Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) are compensated, new claims come up. We must be strict to avoid making a mockery of that important and noble idea.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Gathoni Wamuchomba.

Hon. Speaker, I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration the following:

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, first, regarding a report on the total number of female bodies recovered from the Kware Dumpsite in Embakasi, following public reports regarding the mysterious disappearance of people, the National Police Service

(NPC)

commenced investigations into the matter. The Homicide Unit was deployed to Kware Dumpsite in

Embakasi after suspected luggage-wrapped sacks were sighted floating in stagnant quarry waters. Upon retrieval, the sacks were found to contain human remains. The operation, which spanned several days, resulted in the recovery of 17 packages containing dismembered human body parts. Most of the recovered bodies were in an advanced stage of decomposition and were preserved at the city mortuary, where post-mortem examinations were conducted on the body parts. Subsequent DNA analysis led to the positive identification of five of the victims who were matched to their respective family members. They were:

escaped from police custody, through forensic analysis, Mr Collins Jumaisi Khalusa was positively identified as the prime suspect in the murders of the aforementioned individuals. The suspect was arraigned before the Chief Magistrate’s Court at Makadara under Criminal Miscellaneous Application No.E861/2024 and detained for 30 days pending investigations, and was remanded at Gigiri Police Station. On 20th August 2024, the suspect escaped from lawful custody at Gigiri Police Station. A warrant of arrest was issued against him, which remains in force. The Internal Affairs Unit launched an independent enquiry to establish the circumstances around the escape, and investigations are ongoing. Multi-agency operations are in progress to trace and apprehend the suspect so that he can be charged before the court of law.

Regarding the specific steps undertaken by DCI to progress the case, locate the suspect, or identify additional perpetrators, the DCI, in collaboration with other multi-agency security teams, is actively working to trace and apprehend the suspect. Members of the public are encouraged to share any relevant information with the police through the Fichua kwa DCI toll- free number 0800722203 or via WhatsApp at 0709570000.

On whether any new policies or protective interventions are being implemented, the NPC is currently implementing recent policy directive issued by the Cabinet Secretary, Ministry for Interior and National Administration. This directive focusses on strengthening security operations, enhancing public safety, and improving accountability in the handling of the cases such as abductions and femicides. Key measures include:

Hon. Wamuchomba.

Hon. Speaker, I have listened to what the Cabinet Secretary has to say concerning the cases of the ladies that he confirms were

properly matched with their relatives, and that they were confirmed to have been murdered by the suspect who disappeared. However, I refuse to sit in this House to listen to the Cabinet Secretary confirm that his Ministry is unable to capture suspects who were previously under their arms and custody. I refuse to sit in this House to listen to that kind of an explanation…

You are already sitting in this House. Just ask the question.

Yes, I am refusing to listen to the answer he is giving. It is not right for the Cabinet Secretary to answer a question and tell us that the suspect disappeared and yet, he is not giving us hope. Which hope is he giving the victims? What hope is he promising? Is he telling us that we will sit and watch as the suspect disappears forever? It has been three months since the suspect disappeared. Those are families that are in pain while grieving their loved ones. We watched on television bodies being retrieved from the Kware Dumpsite. The Cabinet Secretary cannot come here and tell us that he wants members of public to help him identify suspects who were previously in their custody. As a woman leader and a mother of girls, I refuse to take that kind of an answer from the Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you. Yes, Lelmengit.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I also thank the Hon. Cabinet Secretary for articulating and giving answers and statements concerning our questions. My question to the Hon. Cabinet Secretary is this: Given that many of those who were demonstrating were youths who were voicing either their frustrations...

We are way past that.

Oh! Sorry Hon. Speaker.

Being a first timer, go ahead. When you joyride, you must be relevant to the question. But go ahead and ask your question.

Okay. Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Let me rephrase my question. Given that those who were demonstrating were mostly the youth who were voicing their frustrations and probably political frustrations, is the Government open to a structured dialogue with them so that we can avoid that menace in the future?

Thank you.

Mama Nairobi.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for giving me this opportunity.

The Cabinet Secretary needs to understand the pain that we are having as women when we see the number...

Hon. Wamuchomba. Hold on, Hon. Passaris. Take your seat. Hon. Wamuchomba. It is discourteous to the House for you to ask a Question that is being prosecuted now with supplementaries, and then you walk out. It is total discourtesy.

But he is not answering my question!

Go back and take your seat.

I am not going back.

That Question is dropped. (Applause) Hon. Members, that kind of bravado and playing to the gallery does not help at all. I have brought the Cabinet Secretary here for you to interrogate him. I give you the opportunity to ask supplementary questions in case the answer given to the question is inadequate. This is to ensure that you probe even further and ask the Cabinet Secretary to clarify. The same way we have had Hon. Robert Mbui, Hon. Mwenje and others following up with questions. This is not a House for scoring ‘Bonga Points’ politically. It is a House for representing your people.

Yes, Hon. Owen.

Hon. Speaker, while I respect your advice on this, this is a House of rules which everybody in this Chamber must and should abide to. Our Standing Orders are very clear that when you defy a Speaker's ruling or order, there are consequences to it. We learn and precedence is set through such. I urge you to use your whip on this and show the power that resides in the seat of the Speaker as you sit on it. That this Member, as we all agree, must face the consequences of defying the Speaker. Therefore, I urge you, Hon. Speaker, that you use the Standing Orders and issue very stern action against this Member. I request that of you so that other Members do not emulate and do the same in the future.

Thank you. I will deal with it before the rise of the House. Hon. Martha Wangari.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration the following question:

Could the Cabinet Secretary explain–

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I would like to respond as follows regarding the steps being taken by the Ministry to investigate allegations of child sex trafficking in Mai Mahiu, Nakuru County.

Following the allegations of trafficking of persons involving children for purpose of sexual exploitation in Mai Mahiu Town, Nakuru County, through a viral BBC documentary, officers from anti-human trafficking and child protection units were deployed. On 6th August 2025, four witnesses were interviewed, and their statements recorded. Neema Celina and Mary

Nyambura Njeri, who had both been interviewed in the BBC documentary, posing as victims of child sexual exploitation, as well as Millicent Muturi Wairimu, the chairlady of commercial sex workers in Mai Mahiu Township, and Jane Wamuyu Kungu, a caretaker of Tamasha Lodgings. The four stated that they had been approached by the BBC investigative journalists who requested them to identify vulnerable girls aged between 17 and 21 years for a purported foreign sponsorship programme.

On 7th August 2025, the team summoned Ms Lucy Njoroge, alias Baby Girl, a former commercial sex worker who now works with an NGO known as Kenya National Outreach, Counselling and Training Programme (K-NOTE) as a volunteer peer educator based in Karagita Health Centre. Ms Lucy had featured in the BBC documentary claiming to rescue and assist street girls and sex workers. She stated that she lives with four young women whom she rescued from the streets of Naivasha: Michelle Wanjiku aged 20; Lilian Wairimu aged 19; Elizabeth Nyambura aged 24 and Anne Minne Njeri aged 22.

The investigators proceeded to Karagita Health Centre where K-NOTE operates an office used to store contraceptives and maintain related records. Lucy was confirmed to be a liaison officer between K-NOTE and the health facility. On the 8th August 2025, the team interviewed Mr John Kamau Kinuthia, the Naivasha Sub-County Gender-based Networking Cluster Coordinator, who collaborates with several organisations, including Life Bloom International, K-NOTE, Disability Resource Information Centre, Naivasha Partners for Change, Young Men in Championing Ending Gender-based Violence and Young Men Christian’s Association (YMCA). He confirmed having introduced Lucy to the BBC officials.

To date, 14 witnesses have been interviewed and their statements recorded, and relevant documents obtained. All locations featured in the BBC documentary have been identified, visited and documented by the crime scene investigation team. The BBC crew members have been identified as Njeri Mwangi, Stephen Ruiye, Anthony, Zipporah Ndinda, Kagunda, Beth Wambui Waithera, Anastacia and Nick Milne, a foreign national. According to the witness, BBC representatives promised substantial payments and lifestyle benefits to those who were involved.

Investigations have further revealed that the documentary footage was recorded in Mai Mahiu and Karagita. Witnesses were linked to one another in various capacities within the sex work community. Millicent Wairimu, the chairlady of commercial sex workers, confirmed that she had been approached by the individual known as Sinorina, with whom she had previously worked at K-NOTE star and thereafter fellow sex workers, Judith Wanjiru Njoroge, alias Cheptoo; Caroline Kinyanjui, alias Nyambura and Jane Wamuyu Kungu, to the BBC team.

Jane Wamuyu, upon learning of the arrangement, involved her daughter-in-law, Neema Celina, while Millicent also sourced three other girls, Faith Weta, Mary Njoki and Faith Njeri. The ‘Weta’ is not you, Hon. Speaker.

I am sure it has nothing to do with the Speaker.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: We are yet to confirm that.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. TJ Kajwang’.

Hon. Speaker, is the Cabinet Secretary in order to suggest that Hon. Speaker, aka, ‘Papa wa Roma’, is inferred to be a suspect? Is there an active investigation on this matter? How far has that investigation gone?

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: We cannot confirm whether the Speaker is involved and whether Faith Weta is

related to the Speaker in any way. It does not mean that there is any impropriety on his part. I am saying that this is just a name. It could be from the same clan or neighbourhood. Somebody could have named his daughter after the Hon. Speaker.

There are very many people who have named their children after the Hon. Speaker.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

They have done it out of admiration. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: It is very important, Hon. Speaker, to clarify that it is only out of admiration.

Let me take that again. Ms Jane Wamuyu, upon learning of the arrangement

involved her daughter-in-law, Neema Selina, while Millicent also sourced three other girls: Faith Weta, Mary Njoki and Faith Njeri. Faith Njeri is yet to be traced. Lucy introduced four girls to the British Broadcasting Corporation

(BBC)

team - Alice Nyambura Nyawira, alias Nasserian/Elizabeth Nyambura, Mina Njeri, Lilian Wairimu and Michelle Wanjiru.

The investigation established that the BBC team primarily sought underage girls who are involved in sex work. However, some of the girls allegedly falsified their age to qualify for the promised sponsorship. Two women identified in the documentary as Cherop and Nyambura were confirmed to be Judith Nyambura Njoroge, a sex worker in Maai Mahiu for two months, and Caroline Kinyanjui, who had operated there for two years. Two women portrayed in the documentary as child traffickers identified as Judy and Caro, were reportedly promised significant sums of money and have since relocated to unknown locations. No arrests have been made so far, but investigations are ongoing, including obtaining financial records and call data to link all involved parties and tracing missing witnesses.

Concerning reports detailing the number of children being trafficked, the police, through Anti-Human Trafficking and Child Protection Unit, commenced investigations immediately upon receiving the report. Several witnesses have since recorded their statements to assist in the investigations to identify and rescue minors who are involved in the sexual exploitation scheme. Preliminary findings indicate that some of the girls who were interviewed by BBC falsified their age to qualify for the promised sponsorship, as the BBC team was interested in underage girls who were engaged in sex work. The matter remains under active investigations and upon its conclusion, appropriate legal action will be taken against individuals found culpable of any offences.

Hon. Speaker, on measures that have been put in place to rescue and rehabilitate affected children back to society, there is no denying that cases of child sexual exploitation exist across the country, particularly along the Northern Corridor, which serves as an international transport hub. While it is possible that the BBC crew aimed to shed light on those issues, it is now apparent that the documentary failed to meet the intended purpose due to falsified information from several interviewees. Although prostitution is illegal in Kenya, it remains widespread, with sex workers openly soliciting. Additionally, access to hotels and lodging facilities is largely unregulated, with inadequate measures have been put in place to prevent minors from gaining entry. We have issued clear and firm directives to our security teams on the ground, including officers from the National Administration, to take decisive action against child sexual exploitation and human trafficking across the country.

Upon identification of victims, the Government, in collaboration with other stakeholders, will implement the following measures to support and reintegrate children that are affected by abuse and human trafficking:

will actively pursue and rescue victims and facilitate

will provide psychosocial support services to

Thank you Hon. Speaker. I also want to note, before I ask my follow-up question, that the Kenya Women Parliamentarians (KEWOPA) Chair also raised this as a statement in the morning. What I would like to clarify from the Cabinet Secretary is that, that issue is not new in Mai Mahiu. It is also in some areas in Kikopey and also some areas in Sachangwan, where we have long distance trucks.

It is along the entire Northern Corridor, all the way to Congo.

Yes! Thank you, Hon. Speaker! So, the Cabinet Secretary can tell us, first of all, are you confirming that there were no under age children that were actually for real in this trade? And secondly, there were some women - specifically two - who had been implicated in that exposé. Have they been arrested? It is very important. Finally, is the issue of BBC pay-outs. It brings another issue of media ethics. If we have a reporter operating in this country and is using money to lure or get falsified information, what does that mean in terms of our laws?

Has any action been taken against those specific reporters if they ‘for real’ falsified that information for the attraction or to make news or to make sensational news? Thank you.

In fact, Cabinet Secretary, if you listen to that BBC so-called exposé like I did, the purpose was not to bring any facts. The purpose was to besmirch the country. If you listen to it carefully, it was not meant to expose anything. It was meant to besmirch the country and, more so, an African person. Go ahead and respond to Hon. Martha Wangari. Sorry, Hon. Shakeel, you want to joy ride on that?

Yes, Sir.

Go ahead.

Hon. Speaker, you rightly say that, that exposé has some hidden agenda. As APNAC, we had a conversation with the British High Commissioner, somebody from the British High Commission this afternoon. One of the issues that was raised, was what we are doing about that particular purpose. I was a little taken aback and I said: “Look! We have our security services.”

But the most important thing, as we speak… I am actually one of the male Members of KEWOPA. But even in APNAC, we have this fall-back by some Western powers who are now looking at us as if we are primitive. Well, I reminded that gentleman that there are a lot of sexual crimes in the United Kingdom which we do not talk about. So, I endorse what you have said Hon. Speaker, but we must really try and find those two people if they are really guilty and liable. Thank you.

The Cabinet Minister for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, let me say that we are confirming from this report that the entire report was fake because the people who were interviewed were not underage. That is why I went the whole length to read their names and pseudo names, who they are, what they do and

why, and what was the motivating factor when they were posing as children. The statement is very clear. That is not to say that there may be no cases of sexual exploitation of young people in the country.

The security agencies, including the anti-trafficking unit, have done tremendous work since the days of Gilbert Deya among others, to make sure that those incidents are managed. But we still have cases of human trafficking, including those that come from neighbouring countries passing through Kenya, or young people that are being lured. They may be not underage, but they are being lured also for jobs abroad and they suffer. I answered questions in this Chamber before relating especially to young people from the northern part of the country.

So, that is not to say that we are not grappling with issues of human trafficking, but as far as the BBC documentary is concerned, it was a hoax. It was planned and executed in a manner to portray that underage girls were going through sexual exploitation. In so far as media ethics on the part of the BBC are concerned, why would someone promise a financial reward for information shared? Was the financial reward intended to get a good story that could be aired by the BBC and, therefore, improve the well-being of the reporter? Was the financial reward part of the tricks used by the BBC to find young children? That remains to be unraveled through the investigations. Unfortunately, the conclusions that were made bring into question how an international media house like the BBC verifies its sources before airing such an explosive story.

But be that as it may, we continue to take seriously cases of gender-based violence, sexual exploitation, child trafficking and human trafficking in general, whether or not they were contained in the BBC documentary. Those are human rights issues. We must deal with organised trans-national crime together. Child trafficking is a big challenge. Therefore, the fact that the Mai Mahiu incident in the BBC report might be a hoax does not mean that we sleep on the job that we are expected to do.

What will be done? What about the people who were implicated in the documentary? Since the victims were children, taking legal action against the guilty parties becomes difficult. However, investigations…

They have committed the offence of conspiracy to cause public despondence.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: I am talking about the people who were implicated in the documentary, who are now saying that persons X and Y are involved in child trafficking.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

Go on.

The Penal Code is very clear that profiteering is a crime, specifically from...

Procuring, soliciting and profiteering are criminal offences.

Yes. So, the Cabinet Secretary or the security agencies still have enough grounds to look for those specific women who were interviewed. If they gave false information, action should be taken against them because they are also adding to what the BBC is doing.

Yes, Waziri. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: We are very clear on that and I agree with the Member. I understood the question by Hon. Wangari to be: What have we done to arrest those who were implicated in the documentary? The documentary mentioned certain people who trafficked young girls for sexual exploitation. That is why I said that because the documentary is probably a hoax, it is very difficult to charge the persons who have been implicated. However, once investigations

into child abuse, child trafficking and sexual exploitation are conducted, those who have been mentioned may be found guilty. The investigations will help us to understand whether or not the documentary was a hoax, and if child trafficking for sexual exploitation took place.

I beg to submit.

Hon. Oron, I have noticed that you have been on your phone for the last forty minutes. Your colleague, the Member for Nairobi County, has shifted seats three times to avoid your nuisance. You are out of order. You are at liberty to use the Speaker's Holding Room behind here to make calls or go to the Lobby out there.

As for Hon. Wamuchomba, in law, we call it contempt in the face of the court, not just contempt of court. Members, you are all witnesses to that. Under Standing Order 107A (1) (a) and 107A (3) , and having been prompted by the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party, Hon. Wamuchomba shall serve a suspension from the House of 20 days, excluding the recess days. In those days, she will not be allowed to enter the precincts of Parliament or enjoy the facilities of Parliament, including the restaurants, the gym and the office.

Hon. Members, you are distinguished elected people, representing people who sent you here. There is no point of filing questions for purposes of playing to the gallery and then defiantly walking away. You will not sit in the House and you are sitting in the House. Those tantrums do not make this House look any better. Many times, you have your children sitting in the Gallery, you have your voters sitting in the Gallery and we are relaying those proceeding live. If you cannot respect your Hon. Speaker in this House, who else will you respect?

The next Question, Hon. Cabinet Secretary, is by Hon. Otiende Amollo. I am aware he is leading our football team to play with governors in Homa Bay during the conference. So, we will stay the Question until next time. He has not appointed anybody to ask it for him.

Next Question is by Hon. Esther Passaris. Question 64/2025

Hon. Speaker, could the Cabinet Secretary:

You had, in fact, answered the question. It was at the supplementary level.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Even at the supplementary level, Hon. Speaker, I was willing to supply more information based on what the Hon. Member addressed so that it is clear that we are ready to deal with this issue.

The Question was dropped.

Yes, Hon. Passaris.

Hon. Speaker, I understand the budgetary concerns. If body-worn cameras have not been rolled out, it is not clear if we have rolled out surveillance cameras in all police stations in the country considering what happened at Central Police Station. If they are in place, why was the one at the Central Police not working?

Hon. Owen Baya, you can joy ride on that. Followed by Hon. Mukunji and then the Cabinet Secretary will answer.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I initiated an amendment to the law to include body cams as one of the wearables for police officers. When we are definite about this, it guarantees that the Government will provide for it. The response we got was that it is already covered in law and that is why the Bill was dropped. I did not dispute that.

However, as long as there is no statute that pushes police officers to wear body cams, there will be no commitment. I would like the Cabinet Secretary to agree with me and deliberately introduce a clause in the National Police Service Act that will introduce body cams as one of the wearables. It will cover two things.

Many times, police are falsely accused because there is no gadget that tells the story. In other jurisdictions like South Africa or the United States of America, where police actually wear body cams, it is easier to resolve issues that boil over and lead to demonstrations and the killing of people. Even during demonstrations, body cams would help curb a lot of issues and dispose of court cases faster. I urge the Cabinet Secretary to be the first Cabinet Secretary to introduce body cams in this country. We will avoid very many issues that come up involving the police.

Point made. Hon. Mukunji. Give Hon. Mukunji the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I ask the Cabinet Secretary to take this matter seriously. I ride on my experience while I was being arrested. But also…

Just avoid using yourself as an example.

I am heading somewhere else. For the last three days, there have been clashes between Mbeere and Embu people in a town called Siakago in Embu County. That is being caused by the fact that there has been stealing of boda bodas.

But there is also an allegation of police officers taking bribes and allowing boda bodas to just disappear.

Hon. Speaker, if we have gadgets that can show what exactly the police are doing when they are doing their work, I would ask Waziri to introduce them. It is coming to an issue of ethnic clashes because of the failure of security organs to do their work.

Thank you.

Thank you. Your point is made. Cabinet Secretary, proceed. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, first of all, let me say that I am a supporter of body-worn cameras and technology in general as has been aptly pronounced by my friends, Hon. Owen and Hon. Mukunji.

The body-worn cameras require a certain level of technological investment. It is not one of those stand-alone investments. We have been grappling with the idea of the modernisation of the police service, particularly communication for transparency purposes and how best we can do this with the support of the private sector.

We realised that most of the investment in the security sector do not lead to collection of revenue. However, there is a planned programme on an instant fining system for the transport sector which I left underway. Now, we are working together with the Ministry of Roads and Transport to make sure that it is realised. We hope that the resources that will come from the instant fining and shared to the National Police Service will be ploughed back and invested in technology.

This is something I am hoping to see implemented in the next two years. We can then raise the resources to make sure that we can invest in technology. Remember, it is not enough to have a body-worn camera. There must be a command centre with technology and enough people to monitor the body cameras. You might even want to make sure that you decentralise the monitoring, so that it is easy to monitor different parts of our country.

Body cameras are also a deterrent. A police officer who is wearing a body camera knows for sure that he cannot take a bribe. Body cameras will also deter people who want to bribe police officers. I remember talking about this yesterday after the Jukwaa la Usalama event in Nakuru. We often talk about police officers’ responsibility in fighting corruption. But traffic police officers may be tempted by a business mogul who is driving on the road. That businessman must also be equally punished.

Are you sure that police officers are tempted with bribes or do they solicit bribes?

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, in many cases, because you know you have been over-speeding, even before the police officer approaches your vehicle, you hold out your hand to give him something small. In some instances, police officers have an arrangement with matatu operators, and they just wait to be given something. You cannot blame one side alone. It is a societal problem that we must deal with. People just pay bribes even when they have not committed an offence because they do not like the inconvenience of going through a court process.

Body cameras will solve all our problems. Many people will also abide by the law because they will realise that there is no room for them to bribe anyone. I support the recommendation and I will take it up. We must adopt that innovation.

Finally, I will address Hon. Mukunji. We had an incident in Siakago involving two communities on the alleged theft of motorcycles, invasion of business premises and destruction of property. The Inspector-General of Police has deployed police officers to deal with this issue. Allegations were rife that because of inherent conflict of interest amongst some police officers, one would be harassed even when you have not committed a crime. If a police officer comes from one of the communities, people become suspicious that he or she will side with

one of the warring communities. The Inspector-General of Police has made changes, not to punish the officers, but to restore confidence in the two communities, to ensure that justice will be done and that they will be protected. We are dealing with that live matter.

Body cameras may be useful to avert laxity on the part of police officers in many situations. I encourage Hon. Mukunji to attend the next Jukwaa la Usalama event in his county. It is a free forum for solving local problems.

The next Question by Hon. Millie Odhiambo will be stayed until next time. She is away in Homa Bay County hosting the Devolution Conference.

Proceed, Hon. James Nyikal. Question 66/2025

Hon. Speaker, I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration the following question:

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The Service undertakes medical examinations for potential recruits, which include psychological evaluation, mental health assessment, and aptitude testing. The psychological evaluation process entails screening for emotional stability, stress tolerance, personality traits, and behavioural risk factors. The aptitude test, conducted as part of the same framework, assesses critical cognitive skills such as reasoning, memory, and decision-making capacity, all of which are essential for the effective discharge of police service.

On the second part, the National Police Service training curriculum has integrated psychological, mental health, and behavioural adaptation components into the following areas:

The National Police Service training curriculum incorporates stress management content across all levels of training and ranks. Those modules aim to build psychological resilience and help officers cope effectively with the emotional demands of policing.

Strategic management and leadership courses embed emotional intelligence training to enhance senior officers' capacity to understand and regulate their emotions, demonstrate

empathy, and engage in constructive interpersonal communication. This supports better decision-making and conflict resolution in high-pressure environments.

Officers’ wellness and resilience programmes are actively provided to all serving officers. Those initiatives are implemented in collaboration with specialised institutions such as Chiromo Hospital Group and Amani Counselling Centre and Training Institute. The programmes include psychological support, counselling, and wellness education to promote mental well-being and prevent burnout. The curriculum is designed to strike a balance between punitive, adversarial, and rehabilitative correctional approaches to policing, depending on the nature of the situation and the operational demands, as follows:

Punitive and adversarial components are emphasised in units such as drill, skill at arms, field craft, and physical training. Those subjects prepare officers to maintain discipline, enforce lawful authority, and exercise effective command and control. They are critical for managing high-risk situations, such as making arrests, dispersing violent crowds, and neutralising terrorist threats. Those units help instil a warrior mindset when dealing with hostile or dangerous circumstances where the officer and public safety are paramount.

Rehabilitative and correctional approaches are integrated into subjects such as community policing, community communication skills, first aid, and human rights training. Those subjects are mandatory across all training levels, from basic recruit training to command and leadership courses for senior officers. They emphasise empathy, trust building, and viewing members of the public as partners in crime prevention and safety. Officers are trained to adopt proactive, solution-oriented strategies such as diversion, conflict mediation, and non- coercive methods to gain compliance. Those courses promote a guardian mindset, which reflects a commitment to ethical policing, public service, and the protection of human dignity.

On measures that have been put in place to ensure continuous assessment of the psychological and mental well-being of officers, the following have been implemented:

Institutionalised periodic psychological evaluation for officers. This screening helps detect early signs of stress, trauma, or mental health challenges, especially after critical incidents or deployments.

We were to develop a mental health and wellness policy which guides the implementation of psychosocial interventions, confidentiality protocols, referral pathways, and reintegration of officers after treatment. Psychologists, counsellors and social workers have been deployed to major police stations and formations countrywide. This ensures that officers can access on-site, timely counselling services without having to be referred to externally unless it is extremely necessary. We have also introduced peer support networks where trained officers offer mental health, first aid, and psychosocial support to their colleagues. Those peer supporters are trained to identify signs of distress, provide initial support, and refer cases needing professional help.

In addition, officers involved in distressing operations such as shooting incidents and terror-related incidents are subjected to immediate psychological debriefing. This helps in processing trauma, preventing post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and promoting emotional recovery. To promote holistic well-being, officers are encouraged to participate in wellness activities such as physical fitness routines, guided meditation, team-building exercises, and spiritual retreats that are organised by the Directorate of Chaplaincy and Counselling.

Confidential reporting channels have been established for officers to seek help without fear of stigma. Some stations have designated safe spaces for counselling and mental health check-ins. Recognising the impact of police work on families, the Government has introduced family counselling and outreach programs. Those involve spouses and children in the healing and support process, and help reduce domestic tensions and emotional stresses.

Finally, for officers who have been on medical or psychological leave, the reintegration program helps them transition back to duty safely and effectively. This includes step-by-step assessment, mentorship, and support from peer teams and psychologists.

I thank you.

Hon. (Dr) Nyikal, is that satisfactory?

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for a very well laid out response. However, I have a concern that prompted my remarks. What we have observed regarding the general conduct of the police force, particularly during demonstrations and even in their homes, does not support the assertions you have made. Obviously, there are increased homicide cases among police officers and the use of firearms, with instances of officers attacking one another and their superiors. This behaviour typically signals that something is fundamentally wrong within the system.

Furthermore, the prevalence of suicide is an indication that something is wrong. We receive numerous reports about this matter. Additionally, their conduct during tense situations raises further alarm. I was particularly concerned by the incident involving Boniface. Once an individual no longer poses a threat to a police officer's safety, one would expect that person to be afforded protection. However, the police officer who shot Boniface appeared to be celebrating, as though he had scored a goal. This behaviour is unacceptable. The ongoing beating of a downed individual suggests that the psychological state of the officer is concerning. At that moment, the safety of the police officer should not be the priority. I am uncertain how often this sort of conduct is addressed.

How many police officers have undergone retraining or have been removed from service due to such actions? Are there any consequences for officers whose behaviour deviates from the norm, particularly in relation to the mental state that is required for the sensitive work that they undertake?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Mbui.

Hon. Speaker, on the answer to the issue of police training, the Cabinet Secretary has tried to explain that the curriculum promotes both the punitive and adversarial approach towards the public and also a rehabilitative and correctional approach. I beg to differ. I think the only approach that should be allowed by the police is the one of rehabilitative and correctional. Punishment is not one of the responsibilities of the Police Force. They are not supposed to punish. It is the duty of courts of law to punish.

I agree with what Hon. Nyikal has said. We have all witnessed a lot of things online that the police do, like the comments and the actions they take. For instance, the case he has just talked about. The officer that shot Boniface Kariuki did not just go and shoot him. He made several attempts. He aimed several times. He would aim then walk away and rethink about it. He did that about three times and finally, he decided to shoot. Clearly, he was confused or something was probing him.

It is important that police officers get help so that they can do their job. I know their job is strenuous and stressful. When things go wrong, we all start blaming the police and yet, some of them are very innocent. I know one broke my leg, but there were also very many officers who were in the same demonstrations and were not acting in the same manner. I believe this is something that they should be trained on continuously to ensure that they are mentally stable.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Saney.

Hon. Speaker, the Question by Hon. Nyikal is very specific. Question one asks the Cabinet Secretary to clarify whether the National Police Service (NPS) undertakes psychological or mental health assessments during recruitment, and

not when in service. I know the dynamics may change, but during recruitment, are those assessments done?

I thought he answered that.

If he answered, I doubt that…

He did. I heard it. Hon. Nyikal is very meticulous. I can assure you if it was not answered, he would have raised it. He did.

Hon. Mishi Mboko.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Firstly, I want to appreciate the Cabinet Secretary for the many interventions and programmes he has just mentioned and that are meant to deal with mental health. Mental health issues are real; and they are with us. We need to know that issues like depression, anxiety and bipolar are with us, particularly for Kenyans working in the security sector. Their mental health is largely affected. Imagine the Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) personnel who have gone for peace keeping missions in Somalia and other countries, when they come back, they have trauma due to what they experience. Imagine what the police officers who were taken to Haiti have seen and experienced while fighting the militia fighting the Haitian Government. It is high time we ensure we intervene by having programmes and proper funding for routine checkups to ensure our police officers mental health is in check.

My question is this: Are those services, interventions and programmes devolved from the police headquarters to our counties or sub-counties? Do we have units that deal with wellness and can the wellness issues include the mental health interventions? I want to know whether we have that. We have seen police officers in our sub-counties committing suicide, killing their spouses and families, not to exclude other tragic incidences which we have witnessed due to mental health. Has the Cabinet Secretary done more interventions to devolve those programmes and interventions to ensure we fight this mental health menace?

Today, the public mental health center Mathari Mental Hospital in Nairobi. In Mombasa, we have Port Reitz, a very small unit. It cannot cater for the many mental health cases. So, Cabinet Secretary, I want to hear whether you have any plans.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you. Hon. Rachael Nyamai, then the Cabinet Secretary will answer the questions before we go to the next.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for allowing me to joyride. I am sure the Cabinet Secretary is aware of several police officers who have lost their jobs because they are mentally unwell. Some have resorted to alcoholism. I will not cite the example that I have written about concerning my constituent. Is there a form of insurance to ensure that a person who becomes so stressed in the course of duty and becomes a drunkard is not just declared not useful for the service?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Tongoyo, Chairperson of the Committee.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Mine is not a question, neither do I want to help the very able Cabinet Secretary. I just want to bring to the attention of the House that, already, there is a Bill in this House that has been sponsored by Hon. Masara to amend the National Police Service Commission Act to provide psycho-social services in every county to address issues of mental health among police officers. The Bill is past Second Reading and is awaiting the House to expedite it.

Cabinet Secretary, respond to those questions. Hold on, Cabinet Secretary. Is that Hon. CNN or Hon. Jematiah? Hon. Jematiah.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. My concern is on officers who go through mental problems. This affects their families. What

happens when, for instance, a police officer has problems and it affects their family? Is there the same programme extended to their families? The cases are rampant.

Thank you. I had already said that. Go on, Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, this is a very serious issue being confronted by NPS. In the 28 counties I have visited to have an engagement with police officers, the public engagements have touched on mental health. We need to look at the matter not just when police officers have become sick, but consider the factors that lead to mental health problems.

First, we have now discovered that a police officer is sometimes deployed to an operational area for 10 to 15 years. For example, you are recruited from Bungoma and deployed to Tana River and serve for 15 years. And it is a difficult operational environment. What happens? I was told this story when I was in Tana River. A police officer who had been deployed there, hoped he would serve there for three to four years. He was still in his early 20s. He hoped to go back and marry at home and then serve in other places from where he could easily access his family. What do they decide? They marry and live there. I was told one of the officers had very serious mental health issues. Therefore, we need to address the operational challenges that arise.

If you send a person to Liboi in Mandera and they are fighting Al Shabaab, you cannot keep them in the operational area for more than two or three years. Pursuant to our engagement, we have said there must be a determined period of time that a police officer can be in an operational area, at most five years and at least three years. That means there must be a system of continuous transfer of police officers from an operational area to an area that is with less operation. That way, we will be able to deal with mental health issues. The next one is on promotion of police officers. If somebody stays for 25 to 30 years without being promoted, they feel totally disillusioned serving as a constable for all those years - from the day they were hired up to 25 years. That also contributes…

I know many who have served as constables from recruitment to retirement.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: I am not supposed to hear, but I have heard Hon. Mbui saying “like our security officers”. That is the bodyguards that are with you. After every Jukwaa La Usalama visit in every county, the leaders give us names of officers who have stayed for a long period of time without promotions. What he is saying is true. Therefore, what kind of interventions are we talking about for those long periods without promotion? As a result of this, we have agreed and it has been presented to the board that all officers who are still constables and are 50 years and above, will all be promoted automatically on merit and sent for training. All officers who have been corporals for more than 15 years and have stagnated at corporal stage, will also be promoted automatically and taken for training. Additionally, those who have been inspectors of police for more than 10 years, will be promoted automatically and taken for training. That way, you help the police officers deal with their personal welfare and feel like they are being cared for. Going forward, there must be a system that automatically helps the police. Unless one has a serious disciplinary case, they must know that when they reach a certain level of service, they will have moved from constable, to corporal, to inspector and above.

The other issue is working hours. Without prejudice to the case that is going on involving Mr Boniface Kariuki, I was looking at him and asking myself why a police officer would shoot a civilian in such an incident. One can suspect a mental health situation at that point in time. As I said earlier, we need to deal with this issue of protests. When there is a protest in Nairobi, for avoidance of doubt and for people to know, the police officers are deployed from 6.00 a.m. the following day. By 7.00 a.m. up to 10.00 a.m., they are usually already preparing to take position. If they do not take position, goons will take that position

and come to town to burn property and do other damages. Take a scenario where somebody has been deployed from 11.00 p.m. at night and given some snacks in the morning, though sometimes they might be forgotten… I am just making a true confession. If it happens that no snacks were brought for them, they will still be deployed and the following morning they take position the entire day. The real maandamano starts at 1.00 p.m. By that time, the police officer is worn out, tired, and sugar levels are down. By 3.00 p.m., that person is extremely irritable. A small provocation like insulting his wife or his mother, or calling him stupid… At that point in time, their mental health status is of great challenge. Sometimes, it is important for all of us to appreciate the operating environment of some of those police officers. That is why we are insisting that we need more police officers that can cover for each other.

Let us also not create occasions where police officers have to manage criminals and gangs that are giving us problems. As a matter of fact, I have visited the training institutions of the police. All our police officers that are deployed to deal with serious cases like Al-Shabaab among others, do not stay there for long. They are always brought back. Before they are re- deployed, they go through training including counselling. I do not need to mention within which institutions, but we have a very detailed programme for dealing with those situations. The problem is the day-to-day police officer in a normal police station providing those services. There are very few counsellors. The counsellors that are now serving our police officers are only at the county headquarters, and they are supposed to move around to different parts of the county. In one county, you may have 17 or 24 police stations. To serve all those police officers is not easy. We have, therefore, agreed that in the next recruitment, we need to focus on increasing the number of counsellors so that they can reach out to those people. As I read in the statement, we are also working with the families of the officers so as to extend those counselling services to them.

Lastly, currently, in the National Police Service (NPS), drunkenness is not considered as an offence that can lead to dismissal of an officer. Drug or alcohol addiction does not lead to dismissal; it is now treated as a disease. Therefore, most of our police officers who are addicted to alcohol have been taken to rehabilitation centres. A number of them have come back to the service. As leaders, we are aware of a police station where addicted officers are stationed. In that station, for example, if there are 13 police officers, 10 are there because they are addicted to alcohol. Therefore, only three police officers in that station are serviceable. Those are some of the things we have said must come to an end—transfer of police officers to certain police stations because they are addicted. This is an area of reform that we have picked from our public engagements. I assure you that we will deal with those issues decisively.

In terms of mental health institutions, I agree that mental health is considered a taboo in our society. And it is not just about the police officers but, even us who are seated here, myself included. For me to manage the cases that we deal with in this Ministry, I have to be conscious that my mental well-being is important. I must think about the things I will do to be in a good mental state. How do I debrief? What exercises can I do? What things can I do? That is the same case for the police. That is why police officers are now exposed to playing sports such as boxing and running. They are exposed to various exercises. Some are engaged in community activities while some are leaders in churches. In fact, the police chaplaincy is very instrumental in terms of helping police officers to have debriefing sessions. And for avoidance of doubt, as a result of the diligence of NPS, we have two teams in the Premier League: The Kenya Police Football Club, who are the champions of the Premier League, and recently, the Administration Police Service Football Club (APS Bomet FC) who qualified to the Premier League. We also have many athletes who are world record holders. Our volleyball team is also one of the best around. The same to boxing and many other sports. So, we encourage sports within the Police Service.

There are about 120,000 police officers. So, definitely, if you have 10,000 of them having a problem, it can multiply with time. But, ultimately, we need to get to a point where we make use of technology. That is why the first question was important. Technology is important for us to manage the numbers of police office officers, pay them well and challenge issues of mental health.

Of course, the working environment of the police officers is also a serious challenge. Most of the police officers in the police stations live in uni-huts. A police officer lives with his family in a house partitioned with some kind of bed sheets. And you ask yourself how they live. For police officers to live well, they have to exile the next person living in the next hut. I know you understand what I am saying.

(Laughter) So, housing is really a problem. Living with your children in such deplorable working conditions is not easy. For those of you who have had this engagement, and even if you visit your police station, you realise that the police stations are the worst government offices in the country. Allow me to use the example of Sondu Police Station. When we were at Jukwaa La Usalama, Kericho, we discovered that Sondu Police Station was built in 1932. It is old and in a completely deplorable state. Meanwhile, Sondu Power Generation Station was built using over Ksh10 billion. Yet, there is a police station there and the officers are supposed to provide security to that critical government installation. They just need maybe Ksh10 million to build a good police station, and nobody cares about that police station. Those examples are replicated all over the country.

So, I request that even as we have the debate on NG-CDF, which has done a fantastic job in building classes and education institutions, we also remember our police stations. In fact, I came to Parliament as a Senator. By the time I was coming to the Senate, we were still doing harambees in a few places in my county to build schools. But now we do not go for any harambees to build schools because of NG-CDF.

Hon. Speaker, if that can be extended to police stations, chiefs' offices and assistant county commissioner’s (ACC) offices… I know some Members of Parliament do it, but it is almost done like a Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) of the main function, which is to build schools. I will request for a conversation based on my findings, having gone round the country. I do not want to mention the counties that are doing extremely bad because I do not want to put the leaders on the spot.

We need to come to a place where we can have a conversation between us and the NG- CDF team to see how best we can achieve building modern police stations with, at least, the Officer Commanding Police Station (OCS), Deputy OCS and Armourer Sergeant getting accommodation within the police station so that we can provide proper services to the people of Kenya.

I thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Robert Mbui. We are running out of time.

I have a comment.

A comment? Yes, you have half a minute.

Hon. Speaker, the Cabinet Secretary said something very important that must be acted on. You cannot have a person who started working at 11.00 a.m. and by 5 O'clock has not eaten, holding a firearm. That, I think, should be changed

in management of the demonstrations. Even drivers of buses that roll, if you look at the time, at that time, they are not in a mental state to work.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

In fact, Cabinet Secretary, when those policemen are on the streets, do you ever think even where they go to relieve themselves? Something as simple as that, a human nature call. You are there from morning to evening. What do you do? The hotels are closed because people are rioting. You cannot enter any cafeteria. They are human beings. A man within an age bracket of procreating, living in a small hut, and sometimes you find three families living in that hut, divided by a piece of cloth while they have got human needs. Children are born in there or sometimes an unmarried young man with a couple. You can imagine.

However, I was very impressed when Hon. Haika invited me to Taita Taveta County. We went to an ACK Church where the guest preacher was a policeman. We were very encouraged. Hon. Robert Mbui.

Question 067/2025

Hon. Speaker, I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration the following question:

Could the Cabinet Secretary ―

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you, Hon. Speaker. If you just allow me, I do not want to allow this to pass onto the previous question. In one of the Jukwaa la Usalama yesterday in Nakuru, one of the District County Commissioners

(DCCs)

who has done research, said that there are 117 police officers, in his research, who have lost their spouses as a result of the transfer programme that we have. They live very far from their families, and when they go back, they find their wives gone. It was a wake-up call to me. In fact, he said 17 DCCs also have the same problem. This is something that we might have to do a proper investigation. We then asked ourselves: Is it really necessary that a police officer must come from far to serve well?

In other countries, and I am not suggesting we change this today but rather in the long term, a police officer is a sheriff, chosen from the local community and elected by the people to serve them. We might need to change our policing strategy so that officers are drawn from within the community, enjoy its support and live with their families. Special Forces would then be reserved for specific deployments. In the long term, we must consider this. We must be conscious of their families. When a police officer or an ACC is transferred, they ask: What happens to my children in school? Will they have to move, and how often? We must apply our minds to those family issues. Let me return to the main question. We will have those discussions as we proceed.

On the status of drugs and substance abuse in the coastal region, the prevalence of alcohol, khat and tobacco use is higher than the national rate. The region is largely affected by hard drugs such as heroin, bhang and muguka, especially in Mombasa, Kwale, Kilifi and Lamu. Alcohol and tobacco addiction are also prevalent, particularly among those aged 15 to 35 years. A NACADA survey in 2022 found the national average for substance abuse in Kenya to be

through two main approaches: Demand reduction and supply reduction. Under the demand reduction, the initiatives in the schools are:

At the workplace, the measures are:

For communities, the Government has developed the following initiatives:

prevention system mapping stakeholders and documenting the

Under supply reduction initiatives, the Government has, in collaboration with other relevant agencies, conducted nationwide multi-agency crackdown on illicit brews, non- compliant alcoholic outlets and drugs through rapid result initiatives, regional specific multi- agency crackdown on illicit alcohol and drugs, conducted regular crackdown on shisha selling outlets in Nairobi and other major towns, conducted regional and county multi-agency forums to assess and address regional or county specific alcohol drug abuse status.

Through National Alcohol Drink Control Committees, conducted licensing of importers of alcohol drinks. Finally, through the National Alcohol Control Committee, inspected alcoholic drinks and manufacturers to ascertain levels of compliance to the set standards.

During our county visits, we have realised that there is an internal problem that has largely been contained. For example, the brewing of chang'aa and all other illicit brews internally at our homes. The chiefs and all those partners have been able to do a good job. The problem we are dealing with is industrial level manufacturing. The counties that are severely affected are the ones which manufacture and also transits from neighbouring countries. The top counties are Trans Nzoia, Kakamega, Kisumu, Nairobi and Nakuru. Contrary to the public sentiments that counties like Nyeri have high prevalence of alcohol, it is ranked number 17. However, Kitale, as a result of the proximity to neighbouring countries, the biggest concerns are smuggling of goods, including adulterated alcohol. Marsabit and Isiolo are a big menace in terms of drugs, including heroin that is brought from a neighbouring country.

Have you ever held a rally in Isiolo Town? The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Yes, Hon. Speaker. Not even a rally, just walking through Isiolo Town is a challenge.

It is so manifest. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Drug smugglers would come through the airports, but they no longer do so. They go to neighbouring countries. I do not want to mention countries’ names because I have been in trouble before. They go to neighbouring countries and they come by road through Marsabit. When I went to Isiolo and Marsabit, I found a lot of those drugs had been confiscated. Those drugs are sometimes taken all the way to the Coast or sometimes destined for Nairobi, Nakuru and other places.

There has been a massive crackdown of drugs from the border together with operations on illegal firearms. Most of the drugs and alcohol that come through the counties in the North are escorted with illegal firearms for gun holders. Those has presented various challenges. Therefore, we have been carrying out very serious crackdowns. We have agreed that this must continue in a multi-agency level. We have also agreed with county governments, and this is something we might need to take to the Summit. Licensing of wines and spirit shops must be

regulated across the country. We must balance the desire for revenue and the protection of lives of our people.

Recently, the National Authority for the Campaign Against Alcohol and Drug Abuse (NACADA) came up with regulations that seek to move the minimum age of drinking to 21 years among other measures, including the distance where one can sell alcohol from where people live, how to advertise and when to advertise. Those policies have been put in place.

Does the country have adequate facilities and infrastructure to respond to mental health challenges on drug dependence cases? About 95 per cent of the rehabilitation facilities in the country are private and this is a problem by itself. So many people are addicted, but you can only go to private facilities. Private facilities are in large numbers, I do not want to impute improper motive but, theoretically, a private facility is driven by profit.

Hon. Speaker, so that means if I treat you, you become sick again and you come again, the better because it increases the revenue I get. I say theoretically, I am not saying that is what they do. If it was public facility, then we would put in place measures that will ensure that when we treat you, you go get better because we do not have more public resources to be able to continue investing in the same treatment. So, they are also expensive. National Authority for the Campaign Against Alcohol and Drug Abuse (NACADA) is lobbying for Social Health Authority (SHA) accreditation of the rehab facilities. The Government operationalised the Miritini Treatment and Rehabilitation Centre in Mombasa, which is to be a centre of excellence in matters of rehabilitation and I visited there myself. I saw many people, professionals, doctors, nurses, lawyers, who are being rehabilitated. So, this is not a problem for a certain category of people. What I mean is that it does not only target people who are poor. It is also affecting professionals.

The National Government has partnered with 12 counties to set up county rehabs which include Kisumu, Kisii, Elgeyo Marakwet, Taita Taveta, Kwale, Mombasa, Bomet, Nakuru, Uasin Gishu, Kakamega, Lamu and Nyeri counties. We encourage more and more counties to build rehabilitation centres. I have also seen cases where Women Members of Parliament using National Government Affirmative Action Fund (NGAAF), have proposed rehabilitation centres and working together with county governments for that reason. National Authority for the Campaign Against Alcohol and Drug Abuse (NACADA) also inspects the rehabilitation facilities - around 300 - in the country and accredited those that adhere to national standards of rehabilitation for persons with substance use disorder.

Regarding measures that have been put in place to secure alternative funding for drug and substance abuse intervention programs, NACADA is mandated to license the export and import of alcohol drinks in Kenya as provided for under the Alcohol Drinks Control Act 2010. 1,000,000 litres and above is Ksh1,000,000 license fee, 500,000 litres and above is Ksh500,000 license fee and below 500,000 litres is Ksh250,000. However, the compliance to volume-based licence has been very low since the majority of the applicants declared their 500,000 litres. This has prompted NACADA to engage KenTrade to support with their own board of import / export licensing of alcohol drinks onto the trade of facilitation program, single window system.

Secondly, the national Government is encouraging county governments to develop county-specific legal laws that provide for ring-fencing of funds collected from the licensing of bars and other alcoholic beverages to support rehabilitation programs, including the construction of rehabilitation centres. Before I sit Hon. Speaker, the other challenge that has been posed also from our national conversation is the co-operation with the Judiciary and this is something we need to think about. Two things I want to point out.

Now, this makes it very difficult for the chiefs and the OCSs. The people at the local level are now asking themselves… You and I are lawyers. We know where that is going but the person down there is asking: Who do not know what is chang’aa?

Cabinet Secretary, I thought the law is that, you can be charged, but when evidence is brought at the trial, it is when you need a Government Chemist's report. At least, when I was a magistrate or an active practitioner, that was the law. I do not know Hon. Murugara whether it is still the law?

Give Hon. Murugara the microphone.

That is still the position. You do not need to have the results. You can be charged with all counts. If you plead not guilty, they have to test and bring the evidence. If you plead guilty, it ends there and you are sentenced.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: In some instances, those people come to court with their lawyers who insist that they must first get the charge sheet showing what their client is being charged with before they are charged. In most cases, the magistrates accede to that leading to problems. We explain to them that they need to use the Court Users Programmes within their counties to come to an agreement. Magistrates in some places appreciate the circumstances under which those people are operating. Thankfully, a lot has been done to contain illicit alcohol and the proliferation of drugs in those areas. This is a continuous fight and we are committed to ensuring that we succeed as a country.

Hon. Robert Mbui.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. My question was on drugs and substance abuse. The Cabinet Secretary has mentioned an issue that has raised another question. He kept mentioning muguka and khat. Is muguka or khat a drug or a cash crop as defined in law?

The answers given are very good, but are they factual? While the response on the integrated curriculum was true, I wonder when and where the training of principals and community leaders on the management of drugs and substance abuse took place. You may need to publicise it a little bit more, so that Kenyans can know.

I agree with his response that the status of drugs and substance abuse in the Coast region is above the national average. That is what I wanted to confirm. There is rampant drugs and substance abuse at the Coast. The Cabinet Secretary should consider the following probable causes. Could it be possible that the point of entry of those drugs and substances is the Port and, therefore, we can consider making the Port less porous? Is it possible that we have inadequate laws dealing with drugs and substance abuse? Since the Cabinet Secretary has alluded to some of the things that happen in our courts of law, could the House make the laws a little better? Is it possible that the penalties in law are not punitive enough? Could there be laxity on the part of the enforcing officers, namely, the police and the National Government Administration Officers (NGAOs) ?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Mwenje. Proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I just want to ride on the same. We also have an issue of drugs and substance abuse in Nairobi County. We have wealthy peddlers who mostly operate in the Eastlands area and the general Nairobi area. We have all heard from the Cabinet Secretary that our officers are not well paid and so, they are likely to be compromised.

Even if you report certain cases to the local police officers, no action is taken. Those peddlers are able to pay their way out and continue operating. Can the Cabinet Secretary provide for a special unit, where we can go to blow the whistle on those peddlers’ operations for action to be taken? We can do that without dealing with the local police officers because that is where the problem emanates from.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Naomi Waqo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I am just riding on the opportunity. Waziri is already aware of what is happening in the northern part of Kenya, from Marsabit to Isiolo. Young people are largely affected and it is like they have no future. I would want to know the plans that have been put in place, even if there are no rehabilitation centres. Some of the young people are graduates, but their lives have already been destroyed. They should be taken to rehabilitation centres and be rehabilitated and reintegrated in the community. Marsabit and Isiolo counties are largely affected.

The other question is about drug barons in Kenya. Why are we, as a country, not able to deal with them? If we are dealing with the matter, can you tell us the measures that have been put in place to reduce it? It is negatively affecting our country and families?

Thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. To ride on the same question, I thank Waziri for the good programme he has put in place regarding drug and substance abuse at the Coast, including awareness creation and prevention. Some people are already addicts. I am happy that Waziri also noted that some Woman Representatives use NGAAF money to provide safe spaces, rescue centres and rehabilitation centres. I want to inform Waziri that we are not getting the support we require. I am running a rehabilitation programme in Taita Taveta County. I have been struggling since my first term because the funds are little. It is now seven years. The small kitty is what I am using to make sure that the rehabilitation centre is done. I am still struggling. So, we need your support.

Hon. Speaker, now that Waziri is here, I want to mention an insecurity problem that we have in Taita Taveta. Young boda boda riders are being killed daily and their motorcycles stolen. We have done some investigations. Most of them took the motorcycles on loans which they pay in instalments. In most cases, when they are almost about to complete paying, they are attacked and the motorcycles are stolen. I do not know whether Waziri is aware of those cases. We really need your intervention on this issue. We have lost so many boda boda riders in Taita Taveta County.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me the opportunity.

Hon. Bedzimba.

Ahsante, Mhe. Spika. Nimeshtushwa

Ya pili, Waziri, una habari kuwa maafisa wa DCI wa Kisauni hawana magari na wanatumia baiskeli kutafuta wahalifu? Na unapanga vipi kusuluhisha hayo matatizo?

Ahsante sana. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration (Hon. Kipchumba Murkomen): Thank you, Hon. Speaker. On the follow-up questions by Hon. Mbui, one aspect is training. Training is not happening in a particular school. Those are weekend programmes, through collaborating with the Ministry of Education, to mount workshops at different times. That is why even programmes that NACADA is planning together with students and others are continuous. What we can do is also seek support from ourselves as leaders and see if we can organise a public forum, maybe a tournament. Before the finals, NACADA can come in with training and awareness materials and related items. That is why those trainings are happening at this level. Once in a while, there is a meeting for principals in a particular sub-county or county, and then this training takes place and awareness is created.

On the question of the Coast, it is a very unique place. This is because of the porous nature of the borders. The Coast is Lamu, which is on the border. It is the Tana River, which is near the border. It is Taita Taveta, which is also on the border. Part of the biggest problem in Taita Taveta is that, in our neighbouring area on the other side, there is not much strictness on matters of drugs. I do not think they do much enforcement on matters of marijuana in the first place. It is not a big deal on the other side of the border. The same applies to Kwale.

Then there is the coastline. The coastline is porous because very few places are manned with proper ports. Thanks to the Coast Guard, we have been able to do a lot of work. By the way, if there is something that President Uhuru’s Government did was to deal head-on with the drug barons. A lot was done. I was there when President Uhuru burnt the entire ship that was carrying drugs in his first term, I remember. A lot has been done to dismantle the big barons. What is happening now is that the peddlers are the biggest problem. Of course, they still operate within certain networks. Sometimes, you are unable to get the barons themselves, but as long as you get the middlemen here, arrest them, and dismantle the networks, it helps.

The biggest problem we also face is in terms of transit. All drugs that come from Ethiopia to Kenya, or South Sudan to Kenya, or Uganda passing through Kenya, are not just destined for Kenya. Part of the drugs are consumed here. But they also find their way to neighbouring countries. This is part of transnational organised crime. Locally, I have told the chiefs, assistant chiefs, and OCSs that there is no way drugs and illicit alcohol can be sold in any part of Kenya without the knowledge of the chief and the OCS. The ultimate responsibility lies at that very local unit. Let them demonstrate that they have taken steps to report and crack down on those issues.

Another phenomenon I have noticed, across the country, including the Coast, is that cannabis sativa is also planted in areas with high insecurity. Once bandits occupy a place, they plant cannabis sativa there, consume it, and sell it. Interestingly, in places like Isiolo, Marsabit, Samburu, Baringo, and Elgeyo Marakwet, where I come from, once we carried out massive operations on bandits and cleared certain places in the Kerio Valley, we found that they had planted a lot of cannabis sativa along the river. They could not have planted such if they did not have networks to sell them. We also discovered that some police officers, chiefs, and the National Government Administrative Officers (NGAOs) are major collaborators. In most cases, either they are arrested and charged, or, where there is no direct evidence to charge them, they are transferred and brought back to the office so they are not in certain areas where this menace is ongoing. Those things never really happen without the participation of a police officer. Sometimes, they have the cover of an OCPD, sub-county commander or county commander.

In Kitale, for example, when we were going to attend the Jukwaa la Usalama Forum, we had a tip that there was a lot of cannabis sativa and adulterated ethanol being sold. The

Deputy Inspector-General of Police went with a special team, together with NACADA, and carried out an operation. The suspect confessed. How did this happen? Who told those people that this was here? He said, raids never happen without his knowledge. This must have been done without the knowledge of the officers on the ground. This is something we must continue fighting and dealing with the police officers and administrators, but we should not wait for a Cabinet Secretary to take on this fight. I do not subscribe to the idea that the Cabinet Secretary’s office should receive designated funds to fight alcohol. Instead, this responsibility must be integrated into the day-to-day duties of the Officer Commanding Station (OCS) and the chiefs. Therefore, if you are facilitating mobility for the chief, OCSs and OCPDs by providing motorbikes, allocate those resources accordingly. As they tackle other crimes, they should also address those issues.

In the past, we have had situations where certain officers were allocated funds to combat alcohol consumption, yet only a small portion of that money was used effectively. After conducting raids and generating media coverage for a few months, the issue would resurface as if nothing had been done. What we are currently attempting to implement is a continuous approach—one that is embedded within the job description of both the OCS and the chief. If we elevate this responsibility to that level, we can achieve significant progress.

We do have penalties in place. However, the issue lies not in the existence of those penalties, but in how magistrates apply them. It is important to remember that in areas where there is compromise, magistrates or judges may also be compromised. As long as police officers can be bribed, there is a risk that magistrates can be as well. Thus, the real problem is the enforcement of the law by those who are tasked with upholding it.

Hon. Mwenje, the anti-narcotics police unit remains relatively small. Our conversation has now turned towards making this unit more fully realised, akin to the terror unit, because the drug issue is profoundly damaging our youth. In the next recruitment drive, we plan to ensure that some of the officers already serving in other areas receive training and are assigned to support the Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI) anti-narcotics unit, thus allowing recruits to fill the vacant positions in those other areas.

Regarding the rehabilitation of young people, this is a continuous problem. There is no really good budget for rehabilitation. There is currently no dedicated budget for rehabilitation. Neither NACADA nor any other office allocates funds for this purpose. This is a function that should be undertaken by county governments. The most effective strategy would be for some of the county referral hospitals and sub-county health centres to establish a wing dedicated to rehabilitating those young people. This is fundamentally a medical issue that we can address.

As Honourable Haika has mentioned, the county women representatives hold a commendable initiative, but the NGAAF provides very limited support. There is only so much that can be accomplished with Ksh6 million for an entire county to satisfy everyone. If a rehabilitation centre is established in one constituency, others say: “Hiyo ni ya huko. What have you done for our area?” I often empathise with the women MPs in this regard. I was a Senator before, and nobody would ask me how much funding I had. In contrast, you have limited resources and yet the demand is high. This is a significant challenge. I wish we could foster collaboration with county governments so that we could jointly allocate resources to support those initiatives.

Furthermore, we are contemplating an additional approach. It is insufficient merely to confiscate drugs and ethanol. We should explore ways to pursue the proceeds of crime. For instance, if a baron is selling ethanol, one container can be valued at Ksh50 million. Even if we fine them Ksh1 million, they may simply pay the fine and continue with their operations. However, if we were to go after their financial accounts—similar to the confiscation of proceeds of crime—those funds could then be reinvested to purchase vehicles, equipment, and to construct rehabilitation centres, creating a more substantial punitive effect than the standard

court process. Three weeks ago, during the launch of the NACADA policy initiative, we agreed to pursue this matter and collaborate with other agencies to tackle it effectively.

Regarding the border incidents raised by you, Hon. Haika, motorcycles are being stolen in Taita Taveta and taken to Tanzania, which presents us with a significant challenge. During the Jukwaa la Usalama visit, we resolved that the county commissioner should establish a better working relationship with the counterpart on the other side to determine how best to address this issue. Cooperation, especially discussions, have proven fruitful in areas like Kajiado, depending on how our local leaders engage with their counterparts in Tanzania to effectively manage this menace. When I visited Taita Taveta with the Inspector-General, he made changes to the police officers in that locality due to the ongoing issues. We hope that the newly assigned officers will be more accountable.

Hon. Bedzimba, it is true that in Kisauni, many police stations lack vehicles. We have a shortage of nearly 50 per cent of vehicles nationwide. The Government has been working on a procurement process to acquire another batch of leased vehicles, and we expect to see significant progress in the first quarter. We have informed our officers that once the vehicles are available, they must be willing to share them. There is no dedicated vehicle for the National Police Service (NPS), the Administration Police (AP), or the Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI). They need to develop mechanisms for sharing, especially in counties like yours, where many areas are accessible.

We also face a fuel problem. However, this is not an issue in Mombasa. Most leased vehicles to police stations are supplied with only 450 litres of fuel, which must be collected at a designated centre. For example, if you are in Kibish, Turkana, you have to travel to Kitale to collect the fuel, then proceed to Nairobi. Similarly, someone in Ileret must travel to Nanyuki to get fuel. The remaining fuel often runs out before the end of the month, thus hindering operational activities. Thanks to Jukwaa la Usalama, we have agreed to move it to 650 litres as we continue working on the leasing programme to find better solutions for distribution.

Ahsante sana.

Hon. Umulkher, I saw a communication from Hon. Zamzam, nominating you to ask a question. Are you ready? Go ahead. That is the last question of the day.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker…

Yes, Saney, what is it?

You allowed me to ask a question based on having an addendum.

I said this is the last question of the day on the Order Paper.

Thank you.

There is still Gonzi Rai with an issue of a disappeared person, and yourself. Asking those questions will depend on whether they have been furnished to the Cabinet Secretary or not. Tongoyo is here; he will help us. Yours was just a point of order that you wanted to raise.

Hon. Umulher, go ahead. Question 68/2025

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Could the Cabinet Secretary—

Cabinet Secretary, this is a very narrow Question. You should take less than five minutes on it. Go ahead and start again.

Could the Cabinet Secretary—

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Following a review of our records, it has been established that Mr Hassan Wasionga Ismael applied for a national ID at the Otonglo Division Registration Office in Kisumu West Sub-County in 2020 through Serial Number 2473235651, and a national ID number 39226153 was duly processed and issued on 5th June 2020.

It is important to clarify that an individual is issued with only one national identity number in their lifetime. New serial numbers are, however, generated for tracking purposes in every instance of replacement. Mr Ismael has only ever been issued with ID once, and no replacement has ever been issued under his name or ID number since 2020. Regarding the claim that he was denied his identity card for four years, our system shows the card was produced and ready for collection within the standard processing time. Any delays in collection may not have been due to systemic failures, but may have arisen from procedural or personal issues which are subject to further internal review and on-going investigations by the Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI) . It is deeply regrettable that Mr. Ismael was arrested in connection with an identity card he allegedly never collected. The Ministry takes such matters seriously and is working closely with investigative agencies to uncover how the identity card may have been misused. We remain committed to upholding the integrity of the national identification system.

Hon Speaker, on part two, as stated earlier, only one identity card has ever been issued to Mr. Hassan Wasionga Ismael in line with our standard operating procedures. Identity cards are collected in person at the registration office where the application was submitted. The applicant must present original application for registration acknowledgement slip, commonly known as the waiting card. In some exceptional cases, a parent may collect the card on behalf of an applicant upon producing both the waiting card and their own identification, since also it is the parents that help the children to get the identity card. In the event of a lost waiting card, the applicant is required to provide police abstract or a letter from a chief confirming the loss. Currently, our offices are actively tracing the manual ID collection register for Kisumu West Sub-county to confirm whether that standard operating procedure was followed at the time of collection.

Regarding whether the ID number was misused, the phone number used to register transaction linked to the ID number and the person currently in possession of it, I wish to inform the House that those matters are under active investigation by the Directorate of Criminal

Investigations. The Ministry will provide an update to the National Assembly once the DCI completes the investigations.

On part three, Hon. Speaker, this case is highly unusual but suggests a complex misuse of identity credentials. While the Ministry cannot at this time provide a precise figure of such cases, we acknowledge that incidences of identity theft and misuse of identification documents are increasing globally and Kenya is not immune to this emerging threat. To strengthen the integrity of the national identification system and protect innocent citizens, the Ministry has undertaken the following actions and plans to enhance them further with the support of this House.

Hon. Umulkher.

Thank you Bwana Waziri. Hon. Speaker, Madam Zamzam asked me to let the Cabinet Secretary know that there is a case of somebody who has been arrested in Kisumu with over 800 identity cards and she suspects that Mr. Wasionga could be a victim of such a case and requests you look into the matter. The gentleman was arrested and she helped to have him released from custody. Thank you.

Yes, Hon. Bedzimba. What is it?

Hon. Speaker, because Hon. Zamzam is not around, and Hon. Cabinet Secretary is not sure if Hassan picked the Identity Card himself, I think this question…

He said investigations are ongoing.

Hon. Speaker, that is why I am asking that after the investigations, an answer should be brought back to this House so that we can be sure of what happened.

That is a fair request. Cabinet Secretary, once investigations are over, you can communicate to the House through the Chairman of the Committee.

Hon. Oundo.

Hon. Speaker, on the same issue of identity cards, I will make a request to the Cabinet Secretary. There are very many young people who are joining colleges and universities. They have applied for identity cards and have

waiting cards. Is there a way you can ensure there is rapid processing of identity cards, so that they are not inconvenienced when they have to operate bank accounts after they get the so- called ‘boom’?

Thank you.

Kipepeo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I was there when Hon. Zamzam was requesting. She said there is an innocent young man who is suffering in jail on behalf of somebody who picked his identity card, but the police came for the young man. We might be having more innocent people in jail suffering on behalf of those who are very good at picking people’s identity cards. How can anyone pick somebody’s identity card in the presence of chiefs and assistant chiefs who help out and yet, they know those children from their backgrounds very well?

Thank you.

Cabinet Secretary, as you answer that, because it is the last opportunity on this, I will point out something. In the good old days, we used to be issued with identity cards before we leave school and before preparing to go to university. Why can you not help the country by issuing students in fourth form with identity cards? That is because without an identity card, they cannot process their documents to university, get their boom, open a bank account, or do anything. Why can you not institutionalise students leaving schools with identity cards? Of course, subject to age qualification.

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: First, a lot of reforms have gone into this area of identity cards. Only this year, I issued a gazette notice removing all the fees on acquiring identity cards. Getting an identity card is now free for the first time. That was a directive by His Excellency the President, that we issue identity cards for free, and I did so. You remember that last year, the President also removed unnecessary restrictions that were affecting border counties like your county, all the way to Kisumu, Migori, Narok, Kajiado, Kwale, Lamu and Garissa counties. Some people just thought this problem was only in Garissa, Wajir and Mandera. They do not realise that the same problem was in every county, including Busia, West Pokot and Turkana. All border counties were suffering unnecessary extra vetting. That removal has helped a great deal.

I went to Kitale during the Jukwaa la Usalama and I was shocked that within a timespan of one hour, 200 people had registered for identity cards. In the Jukwaa la Usalama, we go with live capture machines that are being tried where you register the person and you do not carry anything. All the information is transmitted to the headquarters. The chief, registrar, and the fingerprints officers are present, and the identity card can easily be printed. Counties like Kajiado which are vast require such kinds of live capture machines for those interior parts. This makes sure that such people of Kajiado, Kitui, North Eastern and other places are reached. Those are the reforms that we are working on. I wish I could demonstrate here, but those who have been with me either in the office or when I came for Jukwaa la Usalama in your place, saw that, that machine is portable. You can carry the machine using a boda boda. Further, you only need three people to be present in order to use the machine - the registrar, the finger print officer and the chief. So, those approvals can be done using that mobile machine. Going forward, that will be the practice.

It only takes three days to get an ID. But in terms of issuance, it takes seven days. That means that within three days, it is ready in Nairobi. Then, it takes only one day to fly those IDs to most parts of Kenya. Many IDs lie unpicked in various registration offices in the local areas. However, most of the young people joining colleges have been picking their IDs of late. There is need for a programme on sensitisation of the delivery of those IDs. In areas where it takes more than seven days, or in worst case scenario takes 14 days – which should not be the case

Yes, Hon. Jessica, what is it?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I have been raising my hand but you have not ‘caught my eye’. But thank you for you have finally ‘caught my eye’.

It is you who ‘caught my eye’. I did not get to your ‘eye’. Go ahead.

Hon. Speaker, you know I sat in your seat for 10 years. I would like to confirm something before the Cabinet Secretary finishes his submission. The question from the Member is: How long will those investigations take? You cannot tell this House that investigations are going on. You should tell us how long it will take.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Cabinet Secretary, how long will that take? The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Hon. Speaker, the safe side of the story is that Ismael is not in confinement as a result of that theft of identity. The most important part is where he was picked as a suspect. The time the investigation takes is up to the conclusion is when you get the suspect. Until we get that suspect and refine those processes, it is important to remain patient as we deal with this issue. Get it from me that we are not going to let go of this issue because it is a pointer to other problems. It is not something one can say is over because the person has been identified. It is important for us to tighten the systems for issuance of IDs. We will take it very seriously. I hope that, in the next few weeks, following your direction on the other statement, I will be able to send an update on how far that investigation has gone.

Cabinet Secretary, you can sit there and take questions from those Members. If you have the answer, you can give it as this is now an ambush. Those are questions that were directed at your Committee Chairman.

After Hon. Gonzi Rai, we shall have Hon. Saney, who will be followed by Hon Tubi.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. On 16th July 2024, Mr Charo Karisa Mai was abducted by unknown people believed to be security agents while travelling from Mombasa to Malindi. The matter was reported at Malindi Police Station vide OB No.30/16/02/2024. To date, Mr Charo Karisa Mai has not resurfaced, and we are wondering whether he is being held somewhere by any security agency. If so, under whose authority and at what location? What we want to know is his whereabouts.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Saney.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. My question is about Mr Hussein Abdirahman Mohamed of ID No.2672739, a former Assistant County Commissioner (ACC) and currently the Manager of Huduma Centre in Wajir County, who went missing on 8th July 2025. I would like the Cabinet Secretary to provide the following:

Hon. Tubi.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I raised my issue almost two months ago. Isiolo had security problems, and I requested for a statement from the Chairman, but the response was never brought. I, however, received it this morning. It has something to do with the Isiolo problem, but I am not satisfied with the answer. Previously, Isiolo had banditry cases but nowadays, it has problems in town emanating from political rivalry that has been imported into the county.

The problem we have right now concerns a constitutional mandate undertaken by Members of the County Assembly (MCAs) against the Speaker on accountability. For that reason, goons were brought into Isiolo County. There have been many deaths and injuries. People are living under threats and intimidation. The County Assembly should not hold those meetings. That is what it is. The help of the Government and the police were nowhere to be seen. The County Assembly was vandalised and everything taken in the presence of the police. It is the Governor who did that as if he is above the law. That is not the first instance. The Governor is known to have done the same thing at City Hall sometime back. We are now getting the same things. What the Cabinet Secretary has talked on today, about drugs, has

something to do with a new phenomenon in Isiolo. The Cabinet Secretary can tell us what they have done.

Thank you.

Yes Hon. Naomi.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I will take the House back to the issuance of identity cards. I say a big “thank you” to our President and to the Ministry for the decision to issue identity cards to our people. In fact, our people feel that this is the time we have got independence. My question is on the number of days that they take to release the identity cards. It takes quite some time. Some people have been waiting for the last six months, and others for the last one year. How can we make it more effective for the people in Northern Kenya?

My other question is on the waiting cards that people sometimes use, especially in the border area of Moyale as they come through to Marsabit. They struggle because they are not allowed to travel with their waiting cards. What can we do so that they can use their waiting cards to travel to Marsabit?

The other one is good news about high schools in Marsabit. In fact, I think we may be leading. The officers in place have been doing that and we are happy with that progress.

Hon. Umulkher.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I will ask two quick questions that I had raised earlier.

Two months ago, I raised a question about matters concerning some young men. In particular, I raised the case of Abdirizak Ali from Dadaab Constituency. The Statement that was brought, through the Chairperson of the Committee, was not very sufficient, but it almost answered the question. The brother is back. He was released after two weeks but his other brother, with whom he was abducted by the police, has been missing for two years. On behalf of the family, I request for a quick intervention and answer on this matter.

Thank you.

Hon. Ngogoyo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary a question. I also appreciate his efforts of subdividing Kajiado North into two operational sub-counties to have Officer Commanding Police Divisions (OCPDs) . Hon. Cabinet Secretary, I have completed building your police stations using the National Government Development Fund (NG-CDF) . All your chiefs are going to be housed by NG- CDF 100 per cent. We still have a big problem with personnel. Out of the 290 constituencies, Kajiado North has the highest rate of land buying and building of police posts. All chiefs’ offices have been built through the NG-CDF. Land has been bought for the construction of security facilities. The land on which Kiserian Police Station is located was bought by the NG- CDF, and the infrastructure was put up by the NG-CDF. However, there is no increment of even one police officer even after building all those stations. The worst is Gataka, where we host the Co-operative College and other universities. Students are mugged there. The command at the station out there is still a problem. So, I appeal to the Cabinet Secretary. What is he doing? We build as per his request, approved by the planning department within the National Police Service. What is the Cabinet Secretary doing to increase police personnel in Kajiado North Constituency? I repeat that the Kajiado North Constituency NG-CDF has done 100 per of police stations and chiefs' offices magnificently.

You are repeating yourself. Hon. Mayaka.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker: I just want to inquire from the Cabinet Secretary. I recall a couple of years ago when we were finishing Form

IV, we would actually apply for identity cards while in school and get them by the time we were leaving school. I want to know if that is still happening.

You already said it is happening, but it is not adequate.

Okay.

The issue is adequacy. You even heard Hon. Naomi Waqo boasting that Marsabit is doing very well. You need to step up, Cabinet Secretary. Hon. Daudi, what is your point of order? Cabinet Secretary, you will respond to all those in under ten minutes.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary has come to the House today to answer our questions. However, we have filed many requests for statements but the responses given through the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Security have often been inadequate.

However, the two statements I requested for had insufficient responses. You ordered that the Cabinet Secretary should appear before the Committee and answer them directly. We were given two dates for the Cabinet Secretary to appear, but at the last minute, we were informed he would not be attending.

Hon. Speaker, please, reinforce your order so that the Cabinet Secretary appears before the Committee and provides the necessary answers.

That is easy to dispose of. Cabinet Secretary, you are ordered to appear before committees when invited. That is a duty.

You may now respond to the rest. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hold on. Hon. Kaguchia.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I appeal to the Cabinet Secretary to, kindly, deploy police officers and other personnel to the Gumba and Kabutio police posts in Gikondi, Mukurweini. Both police posts have been constructed and are ready for occupation. We have also informed your staff at the local level to ensure occupation and service delivery for the people in those areas. Thank you.

Cabinet Secretary, you may now respond. You have under ten minutes. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. Just like with the House, we have a good working relationship with the Committee. I understand the Member is not part of the Committee, but it was his question. We had agreed with the Committee that, due to programme constraints at the time, we were unable to meet on the two scheduled dates. However, I will make sure that I respond in the next invitation.

The Member of Parliament for Kinango Constituency, Hon. Gonzi Rai, requested for a statement. On 16th July 2024, Mr. Wanje Karisa Mae reported the disappearance of his brother, Mr. Charo Mae Karisa, aged 41, at Malindi Police Station via OB Number 30/16/7/2024 at 10:57 a.m. Mr. Karisa stated that his brother had travelled to Shanzu in Mombasa County on 15th July 2024 at approximately 5:00 a.m., and had since become unreachable, with his phone switched off. He further reported that he had received information from Kahindi, a matatu driver, that Mr. Charo had allegedly been abducted by unknown, masked gunmen along the Mombasa–Malindi Road. An Inquiry File Number 16 of 2025 was subsequently opened to establish the circumstances surrounding those allegations. The case is under active investigation.

On measures taken, the Government remains firmly committed to upholding the Constitution of Kenya and safeguard the fundamental rights and freedoms of all citizens. The Service refutes claims of enforced disappearance, which is not sanctioned activity of the State. Such acts are criminal in nature and are perpetrated by individuals or organised criminal

elements acting outside the law. To mitigate and respond to incidents of abduction and to enhance public safety, the service has instituted the following proactive measures:

Government has put in place a series of measures to safeguard the rights and dignity of arrested persons, including enforcement of the 24-hour rule, regular training and sensitisation of officers on human rights, mandatory documentation in Occurrence Books of any injury sustained by a suspect during arrest, and ensuring that the arrest is lawful, proportionate and based on sufficient grounds, including obtaining court orders, where applicable.

I will now answer the next question about Hussein.

The Huduma man. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: Is Hussein the Huduma man? That is correct. I am sorry, I was ambushed. So, I am using my phone.

The Member for Wajir North Constituency, Hon. Ibrahim Saney, requested to be apprised on the disappearance of Mr Hussein Abdirahman Mohamed, the Manager of Wajir Huduma Centre, who was allegedly last seen on 8th July 2025 while attending an official function presided over by the Cabinet Secretary for Public Service and Human Capital Development. The Member sought to be informed of the status of investigations into the disappearance of Mr Abdirahman, and the measures being taken to ensure that he is found and reunited with his family.

Mr Abdisalam Mohamed reported the disappearance of his uncle, Mr Hussein Abdirahman Mohamed, on 10th July 2025 at Wajir Police Station vide OB No.17 of July 2025. Subsequently, a missing person signal was circulated to all sub-county police commanders and relevant police formations across the country under AEST-161 Volume 4 of 277, dated 10th July 2025.

The investigating officer commenced investigations by visiting Hussein's residence in Wajir Town and his workplace at Wajir Huduma Centre, during which statements were recorded from key individuals to assist in tracing his whereabouts. Mr Ahmed Mohamed, a first cousin, reported that attempts to reach Mr Hussein on 9th July 2025 were unsuccessful as his mobile phone was switched off. Family members contacted his mother in Isiolo and his wife, Ms Fatuma Adan, residing in Ada Dijole in Wajir North Sub-County. Both of them confirmed that he had not been seen. Ahmed further disclosed that Hussein had previously suffered from mental-health-related conditions and was known to occasionally go on Islamic missions called Tabligh.

Mr Hussein Marday Arale, the Deputy Manager of Wajir Huduma Centre, confirmed that he had worked with Mr Hussein for four years, and described their working relations as cordial. He stated that Mr Hussein had applied for 20-days annual leave beginning 4th July 2025, but it was deferred to 8th July 2025 due to the scheduled visit of the Cabinet Secretary for Public Service and Human Capital Development to Tarbaj on 7th July 2025. Mr Hussein reported to work on the morning of 8th July 2025, handed over duties to his deputy, collected

his personal belongings and proceeded on leave. Mr Marday provided a copy of the approved leave form to the investigators. Ms Fatuma Adan, Mr Hussein's wife, confirmed that he had travelled home on 4th July 2025 from Nairobi, where he had gone to seek work transfer. He departed from Wajir Huduma Centre on 6th July 2025 and was scheduled to commence his leave on 7th July 2025. She noted that their last phone conversation occurred on 8th July 2025 at around 9.00 p.m., during which he promised to call back citing that he was in a noisy environment. Subsequent attempts to reach him on 9th July 2025 were unsuccessful as his phone was off.

To facilitate further investigations, a letter dated 11th July 2025 was dispatched to the Safaricom Law Enforcement Liaison Office. Subsequent call data history, subscriber details and location records for the period were requested. The response indicated that his last communication was with his wife and his last known geographic location was within Wajir Town. Further request was made to the Medical Superintendent of Wajir County Referral Hospital and he confirmed that Mr Hussein was a registered outpatient client at their mental health department. He had been diagnosed with chronic mental health condition and was under regular pharmacological treatment, with his most recent clinic visit being 7th May 2025. He had been scheduled for continued monthly follow-ups.

On 18th July 2025, a letter was sent to the Chairman of Jamaat Tablighi Markaz Akam Maalim Salat, Wajir Branch, requesting for a list of participants in Tablighi Missions from Wajir Mosques for July 2025. The response confirmed that Mr Hussein’s name did not appear on the list of participants. The police inquiry file No.4 of 2005 remains active. Ongoing efforts include tracing his known associates, frequent locations and liaising with relatives, colleagues and friends. Importantly, Mr. Hussein Abraham Mohamed is not being held in custody or detained by NPS in any of its stations or facilities. The case is still pending under investigation.

All those measures have been taken to ensure that investigations are done. Members of the public who may have information are encouraged to share it with NPS.

On the steps that are being taken to improve the safety and security of residents of Wajir North, there is a dedicated response team at the Headquarters, the same way I answered other cases of abduction. Police are investigating those issues. We have Fichua kwa DCI programme and active community policing engagements in the area.

The question by Hon. Tubi, Member for Isiolo South, was both a question and an answer. He said there is a problem in Isiolo and that he knows what the problem is - that it is a leadership problem. There are serious leadership wrangles in Isiolo. The county has recently witnessed notable criminal activities, particularly during the months of May and June 2025, with incidents reflecting growing political instability. Those include violent crimes such as assaults and homicides, and property-related crimes such as theft and robbery. The security assessment shows that the crime rate in Isiolo County marked a slight decline with 201 cases reported in June compared to 221 cases recorded in May, representing a decline of 9 per cent.

On 29th June 2025, approximately 3,000 individuals, alleged to be supporters of the Governor and the Speaker, violently invaded both the County Assembly and the Governor’s Office. In response to the incident, the County Criminal Investigations Officer initiated investigations and has since opened an inquiry file into the incident. Key officials, including the Clerk of the County Assembly and the Serjeant-at-Arms, have been summoned to record statements. However, they are yet to comply. The case is under investigations.

Hon. Speaker, let me just say this before I put forth the measures being taken. The problem in Isiolo is about the leadership. In the Senate, when we served with you, I was tasked by the Speaker in our first term to handle a similar problem in Isiolo. At that time, Hon. Tubi was the Speaker of the County Assembly. There were serious wrangles but not at the magnitude we are witnessing today. It has turned from normal disagreements on governance that happen between a county assembly and a county executive to active violent acts. Many MCAs have

reported to me that they fear for their lives. But because of the seriousness of this issue, the Inspector-General of Police recently made sweeping changes in the Police Service, affecting the Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI) officers and general duty police officers. We have seen some improvement and we hope for greater improvement because of those changes.

On the administration side, we have also made sweeping changes with the administrators within Isiolo County, just to remove the act of familiarity that had crept into the county and to see if the new team can put greater energy into dealing with this issue. But also, it is emerging that there is a lot of misuse of power in counties both by the Executive and the county assemblies, and this is a function of the other House. But they cannot do it without the support of this House. In some instances, and this has become a security issue as well as a procedural application of the law, it will interest you that, nowadays, if an assembly speaker would like to impeach, or is working towards impeaching a governor, and he does not get the numbers he wants, he just wakes up one day and declare a seat of a member of a county assembly (MCA) vacant, alleging that the MCA has not attended eight sittings just to make sure they reduce the numbers during the voting. That is extremely draconian, and a number of county assemblies have reported that to us, and MCAs have expressed the fear for their lives.

Hon. Speaker, the second issue which we must rein in, is also misuse of power. I was aware that you were mediating in one of those matters. Here, we also disagree in this Chamber, but I have never, in my time in Parliament, seen someone being de-whipped using your office, Hon. Speaker, to facilitate getting more numbers when taking a vote. That is a very serious issue.

Another issue is where a decision is taken by a county assembly without any vote. You just see the decision in a gazette notice. You see a change of one speaker to another without any vote. For instance, the Gazette Notice stating that there was a change of the Speaker in Isiolo County was crazy. Being a person who has spent a lot of my time fighting for proper governance, especially in devolved units, this has been an issue. So, there are things that we will handle from the security sector, but there are governance problems in Isiolo County that must be addressed because they are spilling over to become security issues.

Lastly, the National Police Service is expediting investigations into all reported cases with a view to identifying, apprehending and prosecuting the perpetrators according to the law. In fact, at some point in Isiolo, still in the last three months, there were self-abductions just to create chaos in that place. There are intense efforts to sustain operations aimed at eradicating any criminal regroupings. Again, there is an emergence of gangs in Isiolo that are sustained politically. We must deal with this, and we are actually on it. The new team that has gone there must address it. The patrols are going on as well.

The following measures have been put in place to ensure the safety of the MCAs. The National Police Service and the National Government Administrative Officers are actively engaging with the local and political leaders across the divide to promote dialogue, reduce political tension, and ensure peaceful coexistence. I discussed with the Regional Commissioner three days ago, and he told me that a lot of work must be done on that. Members of the public are being sensitised on the importance of promptly reporting incidents of criminal activity within their areas, and we will continue doing community barazas to address those issues.

On the question of identity cards by Hon. Naomi, I think it was more of a compliment, and she was just asking if we can intensify those issues. She also highlighted the problem of the drug menace.

On the question by the Member for Ijara, I think the Hon. Member has walked out. We will also continue investigations on the same.

Go to Hon. Ngogoyo’s question. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration

: On the issue by Hon. Ngogoyo, we were working very closely in addressing those

issues but somewhere along the way, I lost him. Now that he has raised the issue, we will retrace our steps and work on those issues to make sure that there is proper deployment of police officers.

Hon. Speaker: It is not a matter of personal relationship. Just answer his question. It was very simple. We build police stations, chiefs’ offices…

The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration (Hon. Kipchumba Murkomen): Hon. Speaker, we will help him put in personnel because we are working on the recruitment. It is not confined to his police stations. It is a general problem. The reduction of strength across the country is due to the failure to carry out recruitment in the last three to four years. We will mitigate those issues as soon as possible. That also applies to Hon. Kaguchia. The area he has mentioned is very well known to me, and the relationship applies to both.

Thank you.

Hon. Irene Mayaka was asking about identity cards in schools. You had already answered that.

Yes, Hon. Kimani. I was closing this session. We started with you, and you want us to close with you?

Yes, I want to close. Mine is very simple. I want to urge the Cabinet Secretary that we have three police stations in Molo; namely, Elburgon, Mariashoni and Molo Town. We do not have sufficient vehicles for security operations in the area. If you follow the questions that have been raised in this room, the security targets are very clear. The police stations that were targeted in Nakuru were Molo, Gilgil and Naivasha, and you can see the pattern. Countrywide, the greatest losses were in Kikuyu, Dagoretti and Molo. The pattern is clear. My advice is that, as you prioritise allocating vehicles and infrastructure for police deployment, there is a serious need. Please, act accordingly.

Thank you.

You do not need to respond to that. Note and do it. Hon. Saney, I have closed this session. We will now release the Cabinet Secretary. If you find your answer inadequate, follow up with Hon. Tongoyo. He will get a response for you. Hon. Bashir, I am not giving you any chance. You cannot sit out there the whole afternoon and evening, and then, when we are closing, you raise your hand. Even you, Hon. Kipchumba, the same applies. Those Members have been sitting here throughout.

There is no provision in the Standing Orders for appreciating a Cabinet Secretary. Cabinet Secretary, you are released to go, and so is your team. Thank you.

Next Order.

Leader of the Majority Party. Where is Hon. Naomi Waqo? She should not follow the Cabinet Secretary instead of prosecuting business. Can you tell her to come and prosecute her business?

Hon. Naomi Waqo, are you sitting in for the Leader of the Majority Party?

Yes.

We have called Order 8. Go to your seat and prosecute that business. Are you moving that Motion?

Hon. Owen Baya is here. You owe the House an apology, Hon. Owen.

I am sorry, Hon. Speaker. I apologise for the delay.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Orders 30

(3)

(b)

, this House resolves to hold a morning sitting on Thursday, 14th August 2025, commencing at 10:00 a.m. Let me catch my breath. The intention of holding a sitting on Thursday morning is to offload important business. Aware that we are about to go into recess, we wish to complete certain matters to ensure that there is no pending work. Hon. Speaker, I beg to move and request the Leader of the Majority Party to second.

I beg to second this Motion. As the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party has mentioned, this is in recognition of the important business we need to conclude before our recess begins. Members are aware that prior to the alteration of our Calendar, which we did on Thursday last week, our recess was scheduled to start tomorrow, after the Sitting in the afternoon. However, we moved the recess to begin on 19th August 2025. Tomorrow, we will hold both a morning and an afternoon Sitting, which will be followed by another morning and afternoon Sitting on Tuesday. This schedule will allow us to finalize the business ahead of the recess, which will begin on Wednesday, 20th August 2025.

I urge Hon. Members to support this Procedural Motion.

Put the Question!

Put the Question!

Next Order.

Hon. Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, taking into consideration the findings of the Joint Committee of the National Assembly Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning and the Senate Standing Committee on Finance and Budget on the approval hearing of a nominee for appointment as a Board Member of the Central Bank of Kenya, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 13th August 2025, and pursuant to section 11 (2) of the Central Bank of Kenya Act, Cap. 491, this House approves the appointment of Mr Pius Ang’asa as a Board member of the Central Bank of Kenya. Before I move, I congratulate our leaders for being so organised and orderly, and ensuring that our business is considered today.

Pursuant to Article 231 of the Constitution, section 10 of the Central Bank of Kenya Act and the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act, the name of the nominee was forwarded to the parliamentary committee on Finance and National Planning by His Excellency the President. The Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning of the National Assembly and the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget of the Senate conducted a joint vetting exercise.

The CBK Board is established under section 10 of Cap. 491 and is responsible for the following:

He was also a Regional Account Manager at Nokia, which gave him a role overseeing accounts in Kenya, Madagascar and Congo, with a budget portfolio exceeding Є45 million annually. He was, therefore, in charge of the Profit and Loss (P&L) responsibility, contractual compliance and cross-border operations.

He also had managerial roles at Alcatel-Lucent, which meant managing sales, cycles, Capital Expenditures (CapEx) intensive projects, procurement processes, and multi-country client operations. The nominee's portfolio included high-value project oversight, strategic financial management and risk mitigation, which meant thorough contractual regulatory compliance and governance engagement at a ministerial level. Those skills are very relevant to the position he has been nominated for as a member of the Board of the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK).

Mr Ang’asa’s background offers oversight strengths which are critical to CBK's

mission, which include the following: Financial oversight, governance and compliance,

strategic stakeholders, technology insight, and global perspective. The CBK has, in recent months, demonstrated critical essentials that have made it one of the most critical institutions in our country.

I would like to highlight two critical areas in which CBK has influenced the economy of our country. Under the leadership of three great people, one of them is the Governor of the CBK, Dr Kamau Thugge, and his two deputy governors, Dr Susan and Mr Gerald Nyaoma. Those three leaders in the CBK, coupled with the support of the Board of Members, have ensured three things.

Firstly, for a very long time, the exchange rate of this country was a subject of national conversation. As you may notice, in the last few months, our exchange rate has stabilised at around Ksh128 and Ksh130 to the dollar. This is a very substantial improvement in our exchange rate, compared to around 2022, when our exchange rate was around Ksh160 to the dollar. This is just one of the achievements. There are three more that I will easily point out.

Secondly, there is the improvement in our inflation rates. Thirdly, also a reduction of interest rates from a very high of 14 per cent to a 9 per cent interest rate. The interest rate reduction and the stabilisation of our shillings are not just by accident. It is by the actual decisions taken through the leadership of Dr Thugge, the Board of Governors, and the two Deputy Governors.

I hope this nominee, who brings new technical advice and experience that he got from Nokia and all those other technical companies, puts to conclusion that we now have a full skill set that is needed in the economic development of our country. We have the best of the economists in our country in the name of our CBK Governor, and the best of the brains in strategic management in the name of our two Deputy Governors. Bringing strategic management in the name of two deputy governors and the additional technical knowledge of the new nominee to the Central Bank of Kenya proves that we have the expertise that is needed to drive our country to the next level.

The nominee demonstrated no political ambition or conflict of interest. I urge this honourable House to approve the nomination of Mr Pius Ang’asa as the next Board Member of the Central Bank of Kenya. From our discussion with him, I can guarantee to the House that we have one of the best brains in technology.

We are experiencing a significant shift from old finance to new finance. For a long time, when you and I were employed, our biggest ambition was to open a bank account and see our salaries deposited. Today, people, especially those aged between 18 and 35 years, do not operate bank accounts or M-PESA; they operate virtual asset accounts. We need to have people in positions of influence who are moving from old finance in the banking sector, M-PESA, Airtel Money and others, to new finance, which is virtual assets.

When Bitcoin came to this country, it seemed like a passing cloud. One Bitcoin traded at around Ksh1,000. Today, one bitcoin is trading in excess of Ksh15 million. There is a new technology that allows one to have bitcoin not only in digital form, but also as a physical key, such as a flash disk. Bitcoin that is in circulation globally is limited and cannot be increased. This technology allows you to buy and lock it in value physically, take a physical code and keep it wherever you want. You can transform that into fiat currency.

Hon. Chairperson, do you notice that the Member seated next to you and the Deputy Whip of the Majority Party are very surprised?

I did not notice, and it is not because…

As you move this Motion, bear in mind that this is something that needs to be picked up another day and shared in the House. Most Members are hearing those things for the first time.

You may proceed.

I thank you for your indulgence, Hon. Temporary Speaker. We are entering a new era. At the advent of M-PESA, telling a typical parent or a villager that they could send money virtually, and that the amount displayed on their phone represented what we now call fiat currency—physical currency—would have seemed unbelievable.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, if I send you Ksh10,000, you are sure that that Ksh10,000 is as good as the Ksh10,000 in your wallet. We have accepted that the Ksh10,000 in M-Pesa or Airtel Money is physical money. That is what you call fiat currency, which is physical money. We have now moved from that to a step further. We have moved to currency that we also do not understand – a currency which flows through something called ‘blockchain technology.’ A few years ago, I said something about the Bitcoin. I remember this because I raised this on the Floor of the House in 2019 to the then Governor of the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) . The CBK Governor then said that this was a passing cloud, only for us to realise that a Bitcoin that was being traded at around a Ksh1,000 is now going for Ksh15 million. People aged between 18 and 35 probably do not have bank account, an M-Pesa account, or an Airtel Money account, but they operate through those virtual assets - whether it is Bitcoins, Ethereum, or all those other coins. It is a whole new technology. The same way a few years ago it was incomprehensible to understand M-Pesa, is the same way we now have a new way of people using a currency that we still do not understand as a medium of exchange.

One of the best innovations that have been is merging the old finance and new finance. This means that for the money exchanged on Bitcoins, you are now able to get that key code, store it as a store of value, and exchange it in the future. It is still a technology that has not been understood. Even when I move this, I better understand it. When you sent me this, I bought a few coins virtually, only for the value to grow tenfold in three-four weeks. It is something that we may not all understand, but that is the future of finance. I am very happy that tomorrow, we are presenting to the Committee of the Whole House, the Second Reading of the Virtual Assets Service Providers Bill. It will make Kenya probably the fourth or fifth country in Africa to provide legal framework for exchange in those virtual assets.

An issue like securitisation is something that is very new to the market. The closest we know about securitisation has been in Capital Market Authority (CMA) where you sell shares. For example, if we had minerals in your county, Makueni County, we can have Kenyans own a percentage of those minerals there. That is what we are calling securitisation and not just in the name that we know in the National Treasury and Economic Planning. That is why there is a new term in this new finance called tokenisation. We are saying that you can own a percentage of the mineral deposits in Makueni without having to invest in the technology of digging into those minerals. When those minerals are sold, you own a token. In the old finance, it would be

a share of a company. The same way that you own a share of Safaricom, or if Kenya Pipeline Company (KPC) is privatised, you can own a share of KPC, a share of Kenya Breweries Limited (KBL), or whichever company that you want. You can now own a token of minerals that are being deposited in our mineral deposits in this country. This is the technology that we need. We hope that our new nominee will lead us there. Our understanding from the discussion that we had with the National Treasury is that he was head-hunted because of his background in technology. He was brought on board to deal with technology in our CBK; to make sure that we are not left behind in matters technology.

The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication Information and Innovation will tell you that the world has moved ahead in terms of technology. If you thought that M-PESA or Visa were global inventions, then you need to read about Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Ethereum technologies. All those technologies are down to virtual assets. We hope that Kenya shall become the first country to issue table coins where tokenisation will be based on a local currency. Where we can exchange our tokens into fiat currency very easily, through exchange. We are providing two systems: The Bill will provide for CBK as a sole regulator for stable coins and CMA as the sole regulator for exchange. I hope that this gentleman will transform CBK so that we can become a leader in Fintech technology, especially for finance —just like the story of Safaricom that started from Vodacom and nobody believed that Vodacom would transform into the Safaricom that we now know and become a lead in Africa.

Inshallah, when we succeed, those technologies will bring change in our region. For example, President Trump issued Trump coin in the United States of America. That is how far this technology has gotten. I hope this honourable House will approve Mr Pius Ang’asa to be a member of the Board of CBK and provide the technological knowhow that will transform us, not just into a hub for Fintech for Kenya, but most importantly for Africa and the world.

The amount of money that is being transacted by banks and M-PESA is only compared to what is being transacted by those technologies. We must lead and be…

Chairman, I add you one minute to conclude.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, we must be the ones to provide leadership in Africa. I urge this honourable House to consider becoming the lead in Fintech in this very important frontier where we are leading. In Africa, the only other countries that have provided legal framework are South Africa and Ghana. Nigeria is the largest trader in virtual assets but they still do not have a regulatory framework. Once we do this, we will be the leader. Once we become the leader in Fintech, our young people will get employment.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, with those many remarks, I beg to move and request my co- Chairperson, who is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication Information and Innovation, to second.

Proceed, Hon. KJ.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. At this very thin hour of the evening, there could not be any more important business that we would be discussing as a House, than what is before us. It might be seen as a Motion to consider the appointment of an individual to an office. However, this evening shall be historic because one day the country will look back and realise that there was a day that the House sat to have a conversation as to how to on-board our financial systems services onto the fourth industrial revolution.

I second this Special Motion on the consideration of one, Mr Pius Ang’asa, as a board member of the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) . Hon. Temporary Speaker, we have seen the curriculum vitae that has been laid before us here by Hon. Kimani Kuria. This gentleman is very well known to me because of his time in the technology sector in Kenya, right from a very

nascent stage, when we were experimenting with mobile telephony, up to where we are. I vouch for that individual not only because he is well known to me, but also because I know the expertise he brings to CBK.

In the early days of the year 2010, Kenya had to make a decision on mobile money. At that time, Kenya could not decide whether to domicile mobile money in banking or in telecommunications. What Kenya did, which is exactly what we are doing with virtual assets, is a wait and see game that was extremely very well balanced to allow for innovation first to prove itself and then legislation catches up with innovation. Kenya has been able to do this with emerging technologies where legislation is not rushed to stifle innovation.

I would like to add to what Hon. Kimani Kuria has said that, today, there is not a single sector that stands on its own. Today, if we are talking about education, we will not be able to talk about it without mentioning education technology - Edutech. If we are planning to go into finance, we have to talk about business technology or financial technology - Fintech. In agriculture, we have to talk about agritech. In this new world that is data driven, Hon. Kimani Kuria referred to Kitui County as a perfect example. We do not know what assets are under the ground in Kitui County. However, we know that there could be potential for mining. What if we found good cobalt deposits in Kitui County? You, who is not a resident of Kitui County, as a Kenyan, you now have the ability to benefit from a natural resource that is found in your country. This can be done by buying a share of that big find of whatever mineral it could be. It could even be a rare one which could be acquired by going into cryptocurrency and investing in it.

Earlier today, I was looking at the rise of bitcoin. Together with Hon. Kimani Kuria and our mutual friend, Hon. Ndindi Nyoro, we looked at the path of the growth in value of that cryptocurrency called bitcoin. A few years ago, people were being urged to invest in bitcoin. Today, one bitcoin is equivalent to the value of Ksh15 million. Meaning, today, if you want to buy a bitcoin, you might need to buy a part of one bitcoin. Where is the world headed? It is headed to a place where technology, especially emerging technologies around Artificial Intelligence, will have so much say on every sector that we talk about. If anybody is sitting here and imagining that Artificial Intelligence is just a tool, that person is totally lost.

I hear people saying that Artificial Intelligence, just like social media or a phone, is a tool. It must be clear that Artificial Intelligence is not a tool. It is a system or combination of systems, machine or combination of machines that have their own agency. We are working hard as country to lead in technological innovations. That is why we are calling ourselves the Silicon Savannah of Africa.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, we cannot be the Silicon Savannah just by word. On boarding such thinking into places like the Central Bank of Kenya is leapfrogging us in thought leadership to the new world. So, I am praying that when given the opportunity, Mr. Ang’asa is going to go into the Central Bank and revolutionize the thinking around new and emerging technologies as applied in the financial world to an extent where Kenya now can proudly say that we are leading not only in new technologies like we have done with M-Pesa, but also in those new and emerging technologies like AI, crypto currency, the block chain technology, the internet of things and all those things that accrue from going into this fourth industrial revolution.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, the experience that Mr. Ang’asa brings to CBK could be that shot in the arm that CBK rightly needs at this moment. Allow me to conclude by saying that the work that has been done by this joint committee is a great gift that they are presenting to Parliament. I would urge every single Member of Parliament to see this nomination in light of what is happening in the world today, and note that Kenya needs to leapfrog right to the front in this new drive towards the new world of emerging technologies, key among them being

Artificial Intelligence and everything else that ensues, including those that will be applicable in financial services like the block chain technology and this crypto currency.

The urge that Hon. Kimani Kuria has put it, Kenyans are waiting for us to have good frameworks around those virtual assets and so, I am extremely elated that soon after we prosecute the consideration of this nominee, we shall also be going to a Committee of the whole House where we shall be delving deep into the issues of virtual assets. I must thank this Joint Parliamentary Committee that was involved in the vetting of the nominee for appointment as a member of the Board of CBK and Mr. Pius Ang’asa, we wish you the best.

We want to see this replicated in many other institutions across the various sectors because this is where the world is heading to and we, as Parliament, must also consider how we shall on-board this Parliament into this new world. This is because if we do not, then what we legislate for will be legislating into the past rather than legislating into the future. That is why I propose that we should be thinking about having a dedicated committee of the future in this Parliament, a committee of the future that is depending on a parliamentary office on science and technology because we have to make even our legislation fit for purpose for a time like this and into the future.

I second this Special Motion on the consideration of a nominee for appointment as a member of the Board of CBK. The nominee is Mr. Pius Ang’asa, who brings a great wealth of experience. We pray that he does that which is required in his new posting and office. We wish him the best.

I thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you very much, Hon. KJ.

Hon. Members, I would like to give this opportunity to the Hon. (Eng.) Vincent Musyoka, Member for Mwala.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I do not know this particular gentleman, Mr. Pius Ang’asa, but I like to associate myself with individuals who understand technology, which is my background. I thank the Committee for a job well done. His curriculum vitae (CV) speaks for itself. We hope he will be a gateway to the transformation of our Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) as we move from traditional banking methods to the current online and mobile platforms.

As Hon. Kuria Kimani has said, nobody knew M-Pesa would get to the magnitude it is today. We expect that gentleman to spearhead technologies around fintech innovations that also include peer-to-peer lending platforms and robo-advisors for automated investments. We also hope that he will share his expertise, especially on matters blockchain and cryptocurrencies. Those are necessary, especially for secure and transparent transactions. Cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin have been talked about, and many of us have been listening. We sometimes get scared of investing because we always think every new technology is fraudulent.

We also expect him to invest in tightening our cybersecurity. Our people have lost a lot of money through cybercrimes. We hope that by use of technology, which he seems to understand very well, we will tighten our cybersecurity systems, so that we can protect our financial data from fraud and hacking through what is commonly known as the two-factor authentication method and other necessary methods.

The world is moving very fast and anyone who will be left behind will be left behind at their own peril. We are now in the era of Artificial Intelligence (AI) and machine learning. We can use those technologies, especially AI, to even detect fraud and for risk management.

That gentleman is coming to the CBK on account of his background in technology and so, we need to use those emerging technologies.

We also need to use technology to tighten our regulatory compliance framework. In as much as I have not met that gentleman in person, I hope that the wealth of experience listed in his CV will be of use to our CBK and will serve us well.

With those few remarks, I beg to support the Special Motion.

Hon. Martha Wangari, Member for Gilgil.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I rise to support this Special Motion. I also congratulate my friend and neighbour from Molo, Nakuru, Hon. Kimani Kuria, who is the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning. As Hon. Kawaya has said, even if one may not personally know the nominee for appointment as a Board Member of the CBK, the Report indicates that the Committee used different parameters to determine his suitability.

I hope the CBK can pick from what Hon. Kawaya has said concerning data privacy. There are many institutions or parody institutions that take advantage of this digital era to con unsuspecting members of the community by using their data to access their money or information which the institutions use to their advantage. I hope we crack down on that. More importantly, there has to be a link in the Communications Department of CBK to liaise with the media. I feel like most unscrupulous people who target members of the community use vernacular radio stations. They may advertise a micro-finance and get away with it because by the time CBK or any regulator catches up with them, the information is already out. I hope we can have a tighter hold of that data to protect the electorates, communities and the nation at large.

We also need to help the Government through the whole-of-government approach. The sustainable development goals (SDGs) also say that nobody should be left behind. We advise the Executive in one way or another on the borrowing options.

Order, Hon. Wangari. Hon.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, nothing is out of order from my neighbour and senior colleague. But I thought I could perhaps give a point of information.

I need to ask her whether she would like to be informed.

I would definitely like to be informed, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Okay. Proceed.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, it is about information that has not been provided publicly. The Business Laws (Amendment) Act of 2024 is a very crucial law that was passed by this House. In the financial sector, banks are regulated through the CBK Act and the Banking Act; SACCOs are regulated by the SACCO Act; and microfinance institutions are regulated through the Microfinance Act. This honourable House, in its wisdom, realised there was a lacuna in the law. There are non-microfinance, non-SACCO and non-digital financial institutions. Those are the entities that are being abused.

Someone accesses your private data without your consent, realises that you probably need to buy a car and they approach you with an offer. Let us even talk about a motorcycle that they want to sell at Ksh150,000. They give you the motorcycle, but there is no legal agreement

on the principal amount and interest. This House agreed with the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning in December last year. We brought non-digital, non-deposit taking financial institutions under the purview of CBK. This covers programmes like lipa pole pole. You may go to a furniture shop and the attendants would realise that you like a bed and then tell you it is only Ksh1 million. They ask you to pay a deposit of Ksh50,000 and pay the balance in instalments of Ksh10,000. Before you realise, they have called your entire family saying how you bought a bed that you cannot pay for.

This honourable House has brought all such institutions under the purview of CBK. When you buy an item under such arrangement and through what we traditionally used to call higher purchase, you must know the purchase amount and the interest rate. Therefore, if CBK implements the law well, it will make sure that the abuse of that space does not continue. If you remember, there was a time people used to buy motorcycles and just as they were about to complete the payment for their bodabodas, they were repossessed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I am informing the Member for Gilgil, who is my good friend, that this honourable House has taken the necessary steps to make sure that the “Buy Now, Pay Later Programmes” and the non- deposit taking lenders are now under the purview of CBK.

We hope that CBK will ensure that, by the time you are buying something on credit, the principal amount as well as the interest is known. Even when you need to repossess that asset, the procedures are known.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for your indulgence.

Hon. Martha.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I appreciate the information from the Chairperson of the Committee because I think we have all interacted with this problem.

We have motorcycles that are bought on ‘hire purchase’ which are stolen or taken away by the lender just when someone is about to finish the last instalment. It is always a story. At the end of the day, you end up paying double or even more for the same motorcycle. I agree with the Chairperson that there has been a problem. There are too many conmen and too much information that is scattered. It is up to this House to ensure that this information is accessible to the members of the society.

This Government has many sectors. We have CBK, which acts as a regulator. The betting sector has the Betting Control and Licensing Board (BCLB) . At the microfinance sector where, we have SACCOs, we have the Ministry of Co-operatives and Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) Development. My point is that there should be synergy amongst ministries to ensure that conmen do not take advantage of the lacunas that are created by law.

When we isolate those issues, they will say that is not our mandate, it is for CBK or the Co-operative Bank of Kenya. But, at the end of the day, the people who suffer are the consumers and members of the community. They do not even know where to lodge their complaint, because it is a ping pong between ministries. I hope we can get that synergy.

Finally, CBK should also advise Government on good and bad borrowing. Even though they already do this, they should advise the Government on the available sources of short-term loans, either internally or externally, as well as the best commercial rates for our country so that, at the end of the day, we all work together.

All in all, I support the Report and congratulate the Chairperson and the Committee.

Thank you very much. (Applause)

Thank you very much, Hon. Martha Wangari. There being no further interest in this, I will go ahead and put the question. Before I do so, I would like to call upon the Mover to reply.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I would like to add my voice to this and thank the Members who have made contributions.

CBK has made very substantial steps. I really thank the Governor of the Central Bank of Kenya, the one and only Dr Kamau Thugge, and the two Deputy Governors starting with one Dr Susan.

If you may recall, when we started the 13th Parliament, the exchange rate of the Kenya Shilling to the US Dollar was around Ksh160 and it was not predictable. At some point, we almost became a dollarized economy but for the last few months, our exchange rate has stagnated at between Ksh128 and Ksh130 to the US Dollar. Our interest rate has not just stabilized, but it has also reduced. Our Central Bank Rate (CBR) has reduced to 9 per cent per annum. This shows the deliberate fiscal and monetary policies that the leadership of CBK, comprising of the Governor, the Deputy Governors and the Board, has made to achieve this milestone.

I would like be on record today in congratulating (Dr) Kamau Thugge, the Governor of the Central Bank, the two Deputy Governors, the Board of CBK, the Monetary Policy Committee, and the Fiscal Policy Team for the good work they have done. I also commend this noble Committee, together with the House, for diversifying the skills sets of our CBK Board by ensuring that we now have a member with strong digital knowledge and very good in technology. I am hopeful that the fiscal, monetary and other strategies that are being implemented will continue to put Kenya on the trajectory of becoming the fintech hub of Africa, making us an entry point for innovation. Just as Safaricom became a regional entry point, it is today the largest stakeholder in DRC Congo and Ethiopia. In the banking sector, Equity Bank, a Kenyan bank, is now the largest bank in DRC Congo. I hope we will continue to lead in fintech across Africa.

I thank and congratulate this honourable House for approving this board member to add a strong voice to the CBK Board.

With those remarks, I beg to reply.

Thank you very much, Hon. Chairman. Is it the mood of the House that I put the Question?

Yes.

Hon. Members, before we proceed, I wish to inform the House that under Order No. 11, we will only deal with the Meteorology Bill in (i) . The Bills under (ii) and (iii) are hereby dropped and will be rescheduled by the House Business Committee.

Next Order.

THAT, Clause 7 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (2) by—

THAT, Clause 12 of the Bill be amended —

I note that this amendment is in line with the Mwongozo Code of Conduct and ensures that all our laws align with it. We also have institutions, most importantly, anchored by law. In that case, I support the amendment by the Chairman. Thank you.

The Temporary Chairlady

: That is very well. I see the Chairman nodding to the Mwongozo reference. If you wish to speak on any amendment, you will use the intervention.

Clause 19

The Temporary Chairlady

: There is a proposed amendment. Chairman.

THAT, Clause 19 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new sub- clause immediately after sub-clause (2) —

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support this amendment. I am sure the Committee identified a gap. We live in a new world where we are talking about the digital move. Even as we advance into the digital world, we cannot forget that we have a grounded cultural heritage that works. Where Hon. Kawaya comes from, people understand the science behind remote controls. In fact, there was once a joke that Machakos University had introduced a course on witchcraft. However, this is not witchcraft. It is an understanding of what is supernatural, metaphysical, and all phenomena that operate in the unseen world. This is important because, before human beings harnessed electricity, channelled it through wires and powered devices, people might have believed that electricity was a form of witchcraft. Therefore, the fact that we do not understand something does not necessarily mean that it belongs to the realm of the occult.

However, in this new world, where data is being scraped from the internet and is driving machine learning and artificial intelligence, we must also onboard our African traditional culture, heritage and knowledge. If there exists a platform that allows us to onboard individuals with traditional knowledge about rainmaking or predicting droughts, we must seize that opportunity, rather than dismiss it simply due to the lack of formal qualifications. Many individuals who possess remarkable traditional knowledge have acquired it through apprenticeship. While they may not hold academic papers, they could provide significant assistance to the meteorological institution that is headquartered in the larger area of Dagoretti Corner.

I thank you. The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Kimani, keep it short.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I will be brief. I represent a constituency that is home to the Ogiek community, whom we refer to as Dorobo. They coexist harmoniously with the forest, ensuring environmental conservation while living in balance with all the creatures of the forest. I am happy with this amendment, as it centres the Ogiek community in this discussion. Although they may lack academic knowledge of climate change or environmental conservation, they possess invaluable experience in forest living.

I have seen a video circulating online of a vehicle in Kathiani, which was set on free gear, and it moved by itself.

The Temporary Chairlady

: I have tried it and it worked. I poured water and it went up the hill.

So, this is not witchcraft. Therefore, I look forward to hearing from those individuals as they come into law and inform our decisions. I support the amendment as proposed by the Hon. Chairperson.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Very well. I know we had a substantial debate in Second Reading, particularly regarding the Turkana people who use

intestines to read the weather. There are, indeed, many traditional practices that will prove useful.

(Question, that the words to be added be added, put and agreed to)

THAT, Clause 38 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new sub- clauses immediately after sub-clause (3) —

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I am very happy with this amendment because of two things. Firstly, we have seen most families, especially in rural villages, benefit when those masts are erected in their compounds, and therefore, I would want the assurance that their privacy is guaranteed even when those meteorological service masts are erected in their compounds.

Secondly, in this move of digitisation and digital technology, we must make every effort to ensure that data protection remains essential.

Our moms in the village could easily give in to our lands to erect something, only for the person who has erected the mast to access the calls we make to our mothers. I was following a TikTok conversation where my mom decided to talk to her sisters, but then she thought the way to go about a conference call was to go on TikTok Live. I had a very difficult time explaining to my mom that on TikTok Live, everyone is listening and watching.

The Temporary Chairlady

: I agree. It is open to the public.

Therefore, the issue of privacy is something that we must strongly protect to make sure that everyone is protected from the threat to privacy. With that, I support this amendment.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The Temporary Chairlady

: Thank you.

Clause 53

The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Chairman, you have a proposed amendment.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move:

THAT, Clause 53 of the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I am very impressed by how keen Hon. Vincent Kawaya and his Committee are in prosecuting this Bill. This is important because a rose by any other name still smells as sweet. Change of name is not a big issue. The major thing is the Service we are creating and what it will do in the future. Even as they transition, there has to be job security. Whether you are a technical person, subordinate, or working in any other arrangement that you have of engagement with the human

resource at the defunct Meteorological agency, moving into the new Service, your job security is guaranteed.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I would like to thank the Committee and the Chairperson for that very critical observation. It is in this Committee of the whole House that we make the law. What we were doing in the Second Reading was just debating whilst in the First Reading it was a pronouncement. This is the moment we are making the law, where the rubber meets the road. I am sure that the Chairperson deserves a commendation for the attention to detail that he has put to this Bill.

Thank you very much. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Martha Wangari): Thank you. Hon. Kimani Kuria, shortly.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, this is one of the examples why the drafters of our Constitution did the separation of power between the Executive and the Legislature. That is why we should never allow a Bill to be passed on the Floor of this House as it has been proposed by the Executive. This is because the House does public participation. By reading the Report by the Committee, this amendment was actually informed by public participation that was carried out. This therefore means that we enrich the law-making process. This is a clarion call especially to the members of the Executive who think that we just pass the law as brought to this House. We add value to the law in this House. That is the reason that this particular amendment is voted whole heartedly by this House because it adds value to the law making. That informs the separation of power between the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

New Clause 43A

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move:

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after Clause 43— 43A. Section 3 of the Air Passenger Service Charge Act is amended in subsection (3) by inserting the words “the Kenya Meteorological Services Authority” immediately after the words “the Kenya Civil Aviation Authority”.

Consequential amendment to Cap.475.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Martha Wangari): Mover, move the Second Reading of the new Clause.

(Question, that the new clause be read a Second Time, proposed)

Hon. Chairlady, I beg to move that New Clause 43A be now read a Second time.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, new Clause 43A is a consequential amendment to Cap 475. Basically, Hon. Temporary Chairlady, all planes landing in Kenya pay the Air Passenger Service Charge under the Air Passenger Services Act. That money is basically paid to the Tourism Fund and also paid to the Kenya Civil Aviation. Part of the reasons why the money is paid to the Kenya Civil Aviation is because when we domesticated Annex 3 of the Chicago Convention, the data they use to navigate is sourced through Kenya Civil Aviation and through the Meteorological Department. Since now this is an Authority, we want part of those resources to be shared with the Kenya Meteorological Services Authority. So basically, we are adding the Meteorological Services Authority to the list of those eligible to the Air Passenger Services charge money.

(Title agreed to)

Clause 1

THAT, Clause 1 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words “and shall come into operation on such date as the Cabinet Secretary may, by notice in the Gazette, appoint”. We want to ensure that when this Bill is enacted into law, it becomes operational as stipulated in Article 116 of the Constitution. It is supposed to be in force 14 days after publication in the Gazette after being assented to by the President. The way this Bill is drafted leave the discretion on when it becomes law to the Cabinet Secretary, which is very dangerous.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Very well.

Hon. Kimani.

I thank the Chairman and the entire Committee for catching this. We are seeing this appearing in most Bills that are coming from the Executive. This is bringing a lot of legislative power to the Cabinet Secretary. Our Constitution is extremely clear on the role of the three Arms of Government. Even the change with the effective date of the coming into law of any particular piece of legislation, is actually a legislative power which only lies with Parliament. In this case, it is the National Assembly. I send this message to the Executive: You hold the implementation powers. You cannot hold legislative powers. Even the date of effect of any piece of legislation can only be decided by Parliament, and in this case by the National Assembly. Let us not see this again from a legislative proposal, because you know that the power of legislation lies solely with the House of Parliament. In this case, the National Assembly.

Thank you. The Temporary Chairlady

: That summarises it.

The Temporary Chairlady

: We have come to the end of that Committee of the Whole. Mover to move reporting. I am told it is the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party. I cannot see you. Sorry.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the Meteorology Bill, (Senate Bill No. 45 of 2023) , and its approval thereof with amendments.

Chairperson. Please pass the microphone to Hon. Martha Wangari.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Meteorology Bill, (Senate Bill No.45 of 2023) , and approved the same with amendments.

Mover.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report. I request Hon. Kawaya Vincent Musyoka to second the Motion.

Proceed, Chairman.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I second.

Before I put the question, I will give a chance to the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I would like to demystify a fact that has been said in this House and within the leadership of this country. This is something to do with the leadership of women. Usually, you would not expect an attendance of a great number of women leaders in the House around this time of the night, around 9.00

Thank you very much for those kind words. I am sure the women leaders who are seated in this House appreciate.

I will now go ahead and put the question.

Mover.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the Meteorology Bill, (Senate Bill No.45 of 2023) , be now read a Third Time.

I would like to make a few comments. This is a very important piece of legislation which will help to anchor the Meteorological Department into law. It has been operating on a Legal Notice, which is a subsidiary law. But now, it will have its own Act of Parliament to give it autonomy, resources and enough scope to do the work as expected. I thank every Member of

Parliament that has sat here for many hours, including myself, Hon. Kawaya, Hon. Kimani Kuria and the male colleagues that have been here to follow this business.

(Laughter)

Please, do not fail to mention Hon. KJ.

Yes, Hon. Temporary Speaker, Hon. KJ was my junior at the university. He was many years behind me at Kenyatta University. Hon. Temporary Speaker, you were also my junior. We actually did our Master’s Degree the same year. I look young, but I am old enough to be a grandfather. I thank everyone that participated. I also thank the Clerks- at-the-Table and the Committee that looked at this and midwifed this Bill so that we reach here today.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker and therefore, I request Hon. Kawaya to second.

Hon. Speaker, when this particular Bill will be enacted into law, it will go a long way in not only resourcing the Meteorological Services Authority (MSA) , but also ensuring that those particular resources are used to make sure that we have timely and accurate data, invest in the right sources of information, modern equipment as well as the very discussed indigenous knowledge. We hope that the passage of this law is going to be a game-changer in the way we do our data observation. It can only work towards enhancing our safety with our aircrafts and food security in the way we do our predictions using data. Therefore, this piece of legislation is very timely in doing our work. It is very timely.

I second.

(Question proposed)

Hon. Members, I will not encourage any further debate in the interest of time.

The Bill was accordingly read a Third Time and passed) Hon. Members, thank you very much.

Hon. Members, the time being