Tuesday, 29th November, 2016

Order, Members! I have a Communication to make on the self-assessment exercise to evaluate the level of gender sensitivity of the Parliament of the Republic of Kenya.

Hon. Senators, the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) sent an expert mission to Kenya from 12th to 17th July, 2015, to offer advice on the way forward in implementing the constitutional requirement of the two-thirds gender rule upon a request by the Parliament of Kenya.

Following consultative meetings with Members of Parliament of both Houses, the Executive, constitutional commissions and civil society organizations, the expert mission forwarded its report to Parliament on 23rd July, 2015. The report contains suggestions on how to meet the two-thirds gender rule based on the discussions that were held and further identifies the following three additional areas of collaboration between the Parliament of Kenya and IPU:-

Sen. Mositet!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate, today, Tuesday, 29th November, 2016.

Report of the Joint Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget and the Sessional Committee on Devolved Government on a Petition by some Members of the Kisumu County Assembly on the alleged corruption and gross mismanagement by the Kisumu County Executive.

Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay on the table a Report of the Senate Sessional Committee on County Public Accounts and Investments on the disorderly conduct of Hon. Mwangi wa Iria, the Governor of Murang’a County.

Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to move the following Motion:-

Order, Senator! You cannot move what you have not given notice of.

My apologies, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to give notice of the following Motion:-

THAT, the Senate adopts a Report of the Senate Sessional Committee on County Public Accounts and Investments (CPAIC) on the disorderly conduct of Hon. Mwangi wa Iria, the Governor of Murang’a County.

Order, Members! Are there any requests for Statements, if not, we can proceed to Statements to be issued.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have just received a response but it is not adequate. I have given my colleague, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, the copies of what I have received. The bottom line is that a substantive answer has not come from the Governor of Kakamega County. He has not responded and we have asked that we be given up to 12th December, 2016 – I do not know whether we shall be sitting at that time but that is the correspondence so far to enable us get a substantive answer to the question that was asked by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, how I wish you had a copy of what the Chairman is calling a response. It is not. He is referring to a letter---

Order, Senator! If the Chairman admits that it is not a response, you think it is not, why would you want the Speaker to have a copy of such?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wanted to make you angry.

Chairman.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am surprised that my colleague says there is no response at all. We have a response from the Ministry of Sports, Culture and Arts by the Cabinet Secretary (CS) which tells us that with regards to the collapse of this construction of the stadium in Kakamega, that response can only be obtained from the Office of the Governor of Kakamega.I thought that is what I have given him as communication. It is in that regard that the procurement department wrote that they are seeking up to 12th December, 2016 to respond. These are the communications---

Order, Chairman! When you deal with responses, you deal with the substance and not the form, not the correspondence and not the procedure of obtaining information. So, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is right when he says there is no response. It is just as good as there is nothing. So, get the substantive response in the way we understand it on Thursday this week. Let us move to Statement (d) ! Where is the Chairperson?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am sorry I do not have the statement. I was expecting to get it this afternoon as I was told by the Clerk Assistant but up to now, it has not reached me.

Chairman, at least something is on the works, we can trust that before the end of the Order, you might get it or not later than tomorrow. So, the statement will appear on the Order Paper tomorrow afternoon.

That is the end statement hour. What is it, Sen. Wangari?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was expecting two statements that you had directed to be brought today. First, is on the hiring of officials for ministry of health in the counties. Secondly, is that one that was to be issued by the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights Chairperson on the issue of Malewa West Ward in Gilgil

any response from the Chairs.

Is the Chairperson, Health Committee there?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had given a detailed answer to Sen. Wangari but this is the response:-

The Fourth Schedule, Articles 185 (2) , 186 (1) and 187 (2) outlines the distribution of functions between the national and county governments. The Ministry of Health has indicated that they recruit on the basis of delegated authority by the Public Service Commission. However, Article 234 (3) (d) prohibits the Public Service Commission from recruiting for the county governments while Article 235 assigns the responsibility to the county governments. The Ministry is basing its recruitment on the Fourth Schedule of the Constitution which allows the national Government to provide capacity building and technical assistance to the counties. This is done through consultation and co-operation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Committee is in the receipt of communication from the Council of Governors (CoG) and their position is that the county governmentsenjoy human resource recruitment autonomy and the national Government cannot unilaterally without any consultation recruit staff. It is, therefore, the Committee’s opinion that consultations did not take place at all for those recruitments that have been done so far. The Ministry of Health insists that the consultation process took place. However, as stated above according to the CoG, no such consultations took place.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Health has indicated that the ongoing recruitment of health personnel will continue to engage the counties. It is the opinion of the Committee that the process needs to be stopped.

In terms of remuneration by the Ministry, it states that it will seek assurance from the counties affected that they will absorb the recruited staff. We intend to invite the CS and the Principal Secretary (PS) of Health to discuss this issue further. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Chair has mixed up the response from the Ministry and the opinion of the Committee. Looking at this response, it is not as detailed as the Chair says. In fact, on the issue where I sought to know whether it is the mandate of the national Government to recruit staff for the county governments, the Ministry says that they did so through consultation and co-operation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the CoGs have already protested this move. I do not know who they consulted. The Chair should clarify whether ittook place as it is under Article 189 of the Constitution and the burden of absorbing these staff. If you look at the response, in the fifth issue where we asked that the arrangement for deployment and remuneration be cleared, the Ministry says they will seek an assurance from the counties affected that they will absorb recruited officers at the end of the contract period.

This burden that is being brought to the county government is already a problem of health and personnel in the counties. So, the Ministry went ahead to recruit for a contract and after it expires, it expects the counties to absorb them without knowing

- The Fourth Schedule, Articles 185 (2) , 186 (1) and 187 (2) outlines the distribution of functions between the national and county governments. The Ministry of Health has indicated that they recruit on the basis of delegated authority by the Public Service Commission. However, Article 234 (3) (d) prohibits the Public Service Commission from recruiting for the county governments while Article 235 assigns the responsibility to the county governments. The Ministry is basing its recruitment on the Fourth Schedule of the Constitution which allows the national Government to provide capacity building and technical assistance to the counties. This is done through consultation and co-operation. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Committee is in the receipt of communication from the Council of Governors (CoG) and their position is that the county governmentsenjoy human resource recruitment autonomy and the national Government cannot unilaterally without any consultation recruit staff. It is, therefore, the Committee’s opinion that consultations did not take place at all for those recruitments that have been done so far. The Ministry of Health insists that the consultation process took place. However, as stated above according to the CoG, no such consultations took place. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Health has indicated that the ongoing recruitment of health personnel will continue to engage the counties. It is the opinion of the Committee that the process needs to be stopped. In terms of remuneration by the Ministry, it states that it will seek assurance from the counties affected that they will absorb the recruited staff. We intend to invite the CS and the Principal Secretary (PS) of Health to discuss this issue further. Thank you.

clarification from the Chair. What does it mean that they will seek assurance from the counties and why are they recruiting before getting that assurance?

clarification from the Chair. What does it mean that they will seek assurance from the counties and why are they recruiting before getting that assurance?

Sen. Wetangula! The Senate Minority Leader (

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you may recall that as a supplementary question, I asked the Chairman to confirm whether staff recruited by counties since 2013 have been entered into any pension scheme. Counties have been recruiting and we are not sure whether the staff they have recruited on permanent and pensionable basis are permanent and pensionable. It is inhuman to recruit staff and not provide them with any pension.

Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the recruitment of staff; although it appears to have been excused, it is a pretext that it is under the Public Service Commission Act. The truth of the matter is that the Health Bill that was amended in this Senate gives the powers of how the Ministry of Health in collaboration with counties would recruit staff.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the Chairman aware of the status of the Health Bill that would give the position that he stated here? The Public Service Commission Act does not give such mandate under the new Constitution.

Sen. Sijeny.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Chairperson also clarify what became of the defunct local government officers within local hospitals? Could he also clarify what became of the defunct local government officers within the local hospitals and were they redeployed within the counties? Why do they want to employ more? They need to give us the data.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the recruitment of staff; although it appears to have been excused, it is a pretext that it is under the Public Service Commission Act. The truth of the matter is that the Health Bill that was amended in this Senate gives the powers of how the Ministry of Health in collaboration with counties would recruit staff.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the Chairman aware of the status of the Health Bill that would give the position that he stated here? The Public Service Commission Act does not give such mandate under the new Constitution.

Sen. Sijeny.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Chairperson also clarify what became of the defunct local government officers within local hospitals? Could he also clarify what became of the defunct local government officers within the local hospitals and were they redeployed within the counties? Why do they want to employ more? They need to give us the data.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very uncommon of me to demean a colleague. I hold a lot of respect for my Chairman and very able friend, the Senator for Migori County. It is a slip of the tongue. I apologise.

I want to proceed by saying that the ultimate solution to our problem here lies in with the Chairman. In this case, he is giving us the response from the Ministry of Health. It is true one level of government can perform the function of the other with agreements and delegation. Honestly, I want to know is there such an arrangement? If not, then we will expect the Speaker to direct that the Chairman of Committee on Health gives us a

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sen. Wangari wants to know why the national Government is still recruiting for the county governments. According to the Committee’s observations, it is totally wrong and illegal. There was a gazette notice in accordance with the Constitution and the Transition Authority (TA) . Through the Gazette Notice of No.116 of August 2013, health functions were transferred to the counties. Therefore, the counties took the responsibility to all that appertains to those functions.

Further, provisions of Articles 6 (42) and 189 of the Constitution create compulsory obligation for one level of government not to interfere with the other level in exercising these functions. In this regard, county governments enjoy human resource recruitments. As far as we are concerned, they enjoy that autonomy fully.

Sen. Wetangula is very right. The Committee agrees with his sentiments. The national Government is carrying out an illegality by deploying health personnel to county governments. They are not supposed to do that according to the Constitution.

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale talked about the Government not honouring the policy of devolution. Yes, they are dishonouring it. They should read the Constitution and honour it to the letter.

I may not be able to comment on what Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. raised because the Health Bill is not yet law. If you remember, we amended it here and it was sent back for further negotiations. It is not yet law. Therefore, it is not binding.

I am not in a position to answer Sen. Sijeny’s concerns.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While I appreciate my Chairman’s response to the question asked by Sen. Wangari, I believe he is an honest character and he has really laid bare the response according to the Ministry of Health. We are not heading anywhere. The truth is one level of government can still---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Will you allow the distinguished Sen. Hargura to refer to the Chairman who is the Senator of Migori County as a character? Is it lack of English or deliberate assumption that we do not know English Language?

Order, Sen. Hargura! Indeed, I was astonished and perplexed to hear the distinguished Senator referring to the more distinguished Chairperson, Panelist and Doctor of Medicine as a character.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very uncommon of me to demean a colleague. I hold a lot of respect for my Chairman and very able friend, the Senator for Migori County. It is a slip of the tongue. I apologise.

I want to proceed by saying that the ultimate solution to our problem here lies in with the Chairman. In this case, he is giving us the response from the Ministry of Health. It is true one level of government can perform the function of the other with agreements and delegation. Honestly, I want to know is there such an arrangement? If not, then we will expect the Speaker to direct that the Chairman of Committee on Health gives us a

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would want to totally remove the erroneous feeling that a Chairman of a Committee will speak on behalf of a Government. I am not a mouthpiece of the Government. I am the Chairperson of the Health Committee of the Senate. I, therefore, collect and collate information in order to answer your questions as it is. It may please the Government or not. While we recognise that the national Government---

On a point of Mr. Speaker, Sir. You heard the Chairman. He needs to be very careful because when he is giving a response to a statement, he cannot at the same time contradict himself. In answering the question, he cannot stand up again and tell us that what the national Government is doing is illegal. This is because he is giving a statement on behalf of the national Government. So, it is contradictory. He needs to reconcile his position with the answer he is reading.

Order, Sen. Billow! I was about to use the word take the trouble of listening, but you do not need to take any trouble. Just enjoy the listening and you will appreciate that the Chairman has not contradicted himself at all.

Proceed, Chairman.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for the protection. While we recognise that the national Government has constitutional responsibility to offer capacity building and technical assistance to the counties, this does not mandate the Ministry to unilaterally and without any form of consultation, proceed to recruit staff for the counties. That is the Committee’s position. This is the reason that we have an upheaval of strikes.

In my attempt to answer Sen. Ndiema, I would like to say that the TA did not give enough guidelines on how the hitherto personnel employed by the national Government were to be absorbed by the county governments. That has raised an issue of remuneration and who takes responsibility to other remunerations such as the Pension Fund. That is

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that point raised by the Senator for Mandera is very important. Could the Chairman also clarify to the House if there are any doctors sent or posted to the counties by the national Government? Is the national Government responsible for their remuneration or is it the responsibility of the county governments to pay such doctors? If it is so, is it harmonized across the country, or counties will pay in accordance with the capacity and ability?

enhancement and other remunerations. We are in the process of trying to see how we can help on this. It is true some staff are in limbo because some them have found themselves unemployed because counties are rejecting them on the basis that they were forced onto them by the national Government during the TA period. That is the law, only we talk about employment and who has to handle what. What is provided for in the Constitution in the Fourth Schedule must be followed to the letter. I must repeat by saying the national Government should not only stop, but they should desist from employing unless they fully comply with Article 187 of the Constitution that allows for negotiations.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The other subsidiary issue following on this is what I learnt particularly as far as Busia County is concerned where the strike is ongoing. One of the reasons for the strikes is that the paramedical staff

have not received the requisite promotions when the requisite is due. When you go to the county governments, they say it is very difficult for them to do that because files have not come from the national headquarters. So, it is very difficult to classify them on what they have done and those who deserve promotion. If that is true, we request the Government to make sure that the files of these workers are transferred to the respective county governments.

Order, Sen. Wako! You could do more with a bit of listening. It is not a debate, there were just clarifications.

Order, Members! I see that Sen. Ndiema is interested. However, this is a straightforward matter. Definitely, there is a dispute between the Ministry of Health at the national level and the Council of Governors (CoGs) . A Member has sought a statement to clarify on what was actually advertised. I have received in my office a complaint letter from the CoGs raising the same matter.

So, I am going to direct as follows:- First, the provisions of the Constitution with regard to Sovereignty of the People says:

1 (1) All sovereign power belongs to the people of Kenya and shall be exercised only in accordance with this Constitution.

On a point of Mr. Speaker, Sir. You heard the Chairman. He needs to be very careful because when he is giving a response to a statement, he cannot at the same time contradict himself. In answering the question, he cannot stand up again and tell us that what the national Government is doing is illegal. This is because he is giving a statement on behalf of the national Government. So, it is contradictory. He needs to reconcile his position with the answer he is reading.

Order, Sen. Billow! I was about to use the word take the trouble of listening, but you do not need to take any trouble. Just enjoy the listening and you will appreciate that the Chairman has not contradicted himself at all.

Proceed, Chairman.

enhancement and other remunerations. We are in the process of trying to see how we can help on this. It is true some staff are in limbo because some them have found themselves unemployed because counties are rejecting them on the basis that they were forced onto them by the national Government during the TA period. That is the law, only we talk about employment and who has to handle what. What is provided for in the Constitution in the Fourth Schedule must be followed to the letter. I must repeat by saying the national Government should not only stop, but they should desist from employing unless they fully comply with Article 187 of the Constitution that allows for negotiations.

to extend the time for the Committee on Health, say, for a week, to give time for summons to the Cabinet Secretary, so that the process is stopped?

Order, Sen. Wangari. My understanding from the response of the Chair was that they were already in communication with the Ministry of Health. In fact, the Committee intends to invite the Cabinet Secretary and the Principal Secretary to discuss this issue. So, they do not need any extension.

I expect them to appreciate all the concerns you have raised, including the urgency of this matter. They need to stop it forthwith. I leave the Chair to determine given their communication, but not later than a week.

Order, Members. On the bit by Sen. Omondi, I can give an exception to her under the circumstances, but that exemption cannot be extended to the Senate Minority Leader.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am in agreement with the Senate Minority Leader because the action of thumping discriminates me. In order to avoid discrimination in this House, I do agree with him.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was reminding you of my pending Statement from the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights on the issue of the youth from Kasarani in Malewa West Ward of Gilgil. When they go to Gilgil to be recruited into the Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) and Kenya Police Service, they are told to go to Naivasha because their Identity Cards read Naivasha. When they go to Naivasha, they are told---

to extend the time for the Committee on Health, say, for a week, to give time for summons to the Cabinet Secretary, so that the process is stopped?

Order, Sen. Wangari. My understanding from the response of the Chair was that they were already in communication with the Ministry of Health. In fact, the Committee intends to invite the Cabinet Secretary and the Principal Secretary to discuss this issue. So, they do not need any extension.

I expect them to appreciate all the concerns you have raised, including the urgency of this matter. They need to stop it forthwith. I leave the Chair to determine given their communication, but not later than a week.

Order, Members. On the bit by Sen. Omondi, I can give an exception to her under the circumstances, but that exemption cannot be extended to the Senate Minority Leader.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not want you to lock my Statement out from the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights on the issue I raised about the boundaries in Malewa West Ward. When young men from Kasarani go to Gilgil for recruited they are told to go to Naivasha because their identity cards read Naivasha. When they go to Naivasha, they are told to go back to Gilgil. It is an urgent issue. and I am still waiting for that Statement so that it can be settled and the opportunities can be equal to everyone.

Sen. Wangari, you may have to repeat.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was reminding you of my pending Statement from the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights on the issue of the youth from Kasarani in Malewa West Ward of Gilgil. When they go to Gilgil to be recruited into the Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) and Kenya Police Service, they are told to go to Naivasha because their Identity Cards read Naivasha. When they go to Naivasha, they are told---

properly falls within the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Chairman in order to mislead this House? This matter has been pending in this House for over a month. In fact, his deputy had committed to bring a response without any of the issues that he has raised. Is he in order to take us back, when there was a commitment from the Committee to bring the Statement?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am shocked that the distinguished Senator for Busia County can rise on such a point of order. Before Sen. Wangari asked the question, she had approval from the Office of the Speaker and she demonstrated that the matter deserved to go to the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights. Is he in order to want to reverse a process that was concluded over a month ago?

Order, Members. The more useful route is what Sen. Wangari just made in the intervention. The Chair of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights was not properly briefed by his Vice Chair who has been handling the matter.

Yes, Vice Chair.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, unfortunately again, we still do not have this Statement. However, you will recall that I shared the progress we have made on this matter with the House. The issue raised by the Chair is exactly what I said. The Statement was directed to our Committee and we channelled to the Attorney General’s Office. However, the Attorney General’s Office informed us that the matter is within the provincial administration and registration of persons, which falls squarely within the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government.

They undertook to contact them and transmit the request for the statement. As at now, we have not received it and I still seek the indulgence of the House as we pursue this. I would also request the experienced Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations to help us as we pursue this Statement. I am sure that he has better connections and discussions with the Ministry than us in the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I must admit that I am not specifically aware of that request. Had it been made when I was here, I would have said that it is a matter for the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations that deals with registration of persons and related issues. Is it not a policy issue? The matter should be redirected to the right committee, which is, the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations and not the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights. They are not asking for an

properly falls within the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Chairman in order to mislead this House? This matter has been pending in this House for over a month. In fact, his deputy had committed to bring a response without any of the issues that he has raised. Is he in order to take us back, when there was a commitment from the Committee to bring the Statement?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am shocked that the distinguished Senator for Busia County can rise on such a point of order. Before Sen. Wangari asked the question, she had approval from the Office of the Speaker and she demonstrated that the matter deserved to go to the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights. Is he in order to want to reverse a process that was concluded over a month ago?

Order, Members. The more useful route is what Sen. Wangari just made in the intervention. The Chair of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights was not properly briefed by his Vice Chair who has been handling the matter.

Yes, Vice Chair.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, unfortunately again, we still do not have this Statement. However, you will recall that I shared the progress we have made on this matter with the House. The issue raised by the Chair is exactly what I said. The Statement was directed to our Committee and we channelled to the Attorney General’s Office. However, the Attorney General’s Office informed us that the matter is within the provincial administration and registration of persons, which falls squarely within the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government.

They undertook to contact them and transmit the request for the statement. As at now, we have not received it and I still seek the indulgence of the House as we pursue this. I would also request the experienced Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations to help us as we pursue this Statement. I am sure that he has better connections and discussions with the Ministry than us in the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights.

represented in this House by a Senator on my party. Kakamega is represented in this House by my Deputy Party Leader, the distinguished, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

I encourage the delegations to engage with the committees of this House and learn as much as they possibly can. More particularly, I encourage them to sit in the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee (CPAIC) and disabuse the public of the false notion that CPAIC is an instrument of witch hunt. As the County Assembly has come to learn, I also encourage them to avoid any temptation to be captured by governors. They are the primary oversight instruments in the counties. I was recently horrified when I went to CPAIC to attend some session and the Governor under interrogation had the majority leader from his county assembly carrying his briefcase coming to witness the interrogation. How do you expect that majority leader from a county carrying the governor’s briefcase to come CPAIC, to go back and oversight him?

These are some of the things that are giving devolution a bad name. I have no doubt that my distinguished colleagues from Kakamega and Nyamira counties are not in this bracket and that you will carry out your oversight responsibility without fear, favour or prejudice and that the money that we vote in this House to come to your counties is put to the benefit of the people and not the use of governors to carry seats to funerals to sit on as other people do not sit in funerals.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I welcome the distinguished delegations from Kakamega and Nyamira counties. Coming from what used to be Western Province, I want to particularly welcome the distinguished delegation from Kakamega knowing the role that Kakamega has played in giving birth to Bungoma County and Bungoma County, in turn, gave birth to Busia County. So, we are like grandsons, but grandsons who have come of age and ready to lead the entire former western province. I am glad that on a number of issues, the other counties are providing leadership. I am talking about the most important function of the Senate and the county assembly as Government which is oversight.

I would like to see Kakamega leading other counties, particularly in western province on the issues of oversight. As my colleagues have stated, the Governor and Speaker of Busia County have appeared before the CPAIC. The Governor, the Speaker and Busia County Assembly have appeared before this Committee. The same applies to

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing me to join you to welcome the visiting delegations from the two counties. I also thank you for the initiative of training clerks from different counties. Last week, we had delegation from Kakamega County. I am honoured to see my county getting capacity building. I know this will empower them to deliver quality work effectively and efficiently. I wish them a fruitful stay here in Nairobi. I also thank other counties that have joined us today. The Senate Minority Leader (

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you. We do not plead with people. We invite and summon.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not pleading with anybody. All I am asking is can they go and plead with the governor to come. Yes, I cannot plead, but we summon. However, I can show you somebody whom I know has the ear of the governor to come. This is exactly what I a am doing. The Governor for Machakos County was---

Sen. Wako, conclude.

The Governor for Machakos County was with us yesterday and is coming again tomorrow. He said that if he does not, he will come next week. He is now ready and has now seen that we engage in a constructive dialogue on these issues. Please, appeal to him. Otherwise, we may use our immense powers that the Speaker has talked about and just summon and arrest.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you. We do not plead with people. We invite and summon.

More importantly--- Order, Senator. How many questions did you ask?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I asked 10 questions.

The Governor for Machakos County was with us yesterday and is coming again tomorrow. He said that if he does not, he will come next week. He is now ready and has now seen that we engage in a constructive dialogue on these issues. Please, appeal to him. Otherwise, we may use our immense powers that the Speaker has talked about and just summon and arrest.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for hosting the team from Kakamega and Nyamira counties. Just like my party leader has said, we are very proud of Nyamira County because our Senator here from that county belongs to our party. Next year, you remember your former colleague, Hon. Okioma, he will be the Governor for Nyamira County and is running on FORD-K Party. So, the future is very bright.

I also welcome the team from Kakamega County. When I think of Kakamega County, I am very proud. I am the only Senator in the Republic of Kenya who is a Senator in Nairobi and his son-in-law is an MCA in Kakamega County. Mr. Osanga is my son-in-law. He has married my first born daughter. Welcome, son.

solidarity with the Governor. Our Chairman was thrown into confusion but he said that our Constitution allows any member of the public to attend Committee meetings. Therefore, this training is timely, so that the Members of County Assembly (MCAs) can know that they have a role to play in oversighting the governors.

Members of the County Assembly of Kakamega, I want to absolve your Speaker from what Sen. Khaniri said. It is true that Gov. Oparanya has not appeared before the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee (CPAIC), but the Speaker of the County Assembly of Kakamega has appeared and done a good job. Give him our greetings when you go back.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am so proud of the Speaker of the County Assembly of Kakamega because he has written to this Senate complaining that the development budget for the construction of a chamber for the County Assembly of Kakamega has been denied. As if that is not enough, this week, the governor cut the supplementary budget which had allocated Kshs277 million for the construction of the county assembly. He will give the county assembly Kshs100 million only and take the remaining Kshs177 million to the office of the governor. This is the work of my dear MCAs from Kakamega. Your legacy will be that you failed to build a county assembly.

Finally, the matters of the collapse of Bukhungu Stadium and the stage-managed stealing of computers from the procurement office are already in this Senate. We hope that you will also play your role. If you do not, elections are coming next year and people will speak.

Before we move to the next order, Sen. (Dr.) Machage was to issue a Statement.

More importantly--- Order, Senator. How many questions did you ask?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Did you hear the Senator for Bungoma say that what the Chairperson said was preposterous? My understanding of preposterous is utterly foolish, senseless, absurd, lack of common sense. Is he in order?

Order, Sen. Khaniri. Can you confirm that that is the only meaning of that word?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to confirm that, indeed, the word preposterous has got only one meaning. It means completely contrary to nature, reason or common sense, absurd, senseless or utterly foolish.

Sen. Wetangula! Mr. Speaker, Sir, what the distinguished Senators for Vihiga and Kakamega Counties are not telling the House is that the word preposterous means any one of those that they are reading, not all of them. I had absolutely no reason to make reference to Sen. (Dr.) Machage as utterly foolish. I used the word preposterous to mean outrageous. In the Oxford English Dictionary, outrageous is also included in the description of preposterous.

What is it Sen. (Dr.) Machage? Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Wetangula is not only the Senate Minority Leader in this House, but also one of the principals of my political coalition. This is not the first time he has exhibited this kind of character by using lots of words to insult Members in this House. Would I be in order to demand that Sen. Wetangula explains what he meant? Secondly, he should profusely apologize to me and to my political party and withdraw the remarks.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Senate Minority Leader in order to use un-parliamentary words that are demeaning Members of this House?

Order Members! If the Senate Minority Leader in the House has used an unparliamentary word, he is completely out of order. However, we are using words. The only word that has been challenged here is the word preposterous. The only two submissions I received are from people who are reading from some source that is highly suspect. They never quoted an authority by the way. Therefore, it is not authoritative, thus I cannot admit.

My understanding of the word preposterous is along the lines the Senate Minority Leader has explained. It is in terms of outrageous. That is very parliamentary. It does not demean the honourable Chairperson whom all of you know his capabilities and competences which do not need repeating. Therefore, I will give this one more chance to examine and determine the veracity of all those accusations. I will come back to the House on Thursday to confirm.

On a point of order, Speaker, Sir. Sen. Wetangula has confirmed to this House that he will not be available on Thursday. Therefore, he will not be in a position to receive your wrath.

Order! You are shooting yourself on your foot. You had already discounted that particular bit about Sen. Wetangula’s absence or presence on Thursday. You actually suggested to him to appoint a representative. All of us have been sitting in this Plenary this afternoon. The Senate Minority Leader confirmed that his deputy party leader will be available and therefore, there will be no vacuum. He did not tell us that both of them will be away.

The discussions were on the lines of principals and co-principals and parties, thus very appropriate. I will hold you responsible to your own assertions. In any case, judgments and rulings are different. I can still make a determination on Thursday and mete the punishment another day.

Order, Members! According to Standing Order No. 31, I will allow the Majority Leader to give notice of a Procedural Motion.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Did you hear the Senator for Bungoma say that what the Chairperson said was preposterous? My understanding of preposterous is utterly foolish, senseless, absurd, lack of common sense. Is he in order?

Order, Sen. Khaniri. Can you confirm that that is the only meaning of that word?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to confirm that, indeed, the word preposterous has got only one meaning. It means completely contrary to nature, reason or common sense, absurd, senseless or utterly foolish.

Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to move the following Motion.

WHEREAS, the Parliamentary Service

(Senate Monitoring and Evaluation)

Regulations, 2016 were published on 27th September, 2016 and tabled in the Senate and the National Assembly on 4th and 6th, October, 2016, respectively; AWARE, that the Sessional Committee on Delegated Legislation of the Senate considered the said regulations resolved that they be acceded to and pursuant to Standing Order No. 214

(4)

(a)

of the Senate Standing Orders conveyed the said decision to the Parliamentary Service Commission; WHEREAS, the National Assembly considered the said regulations and pursuant to the provisions of Sections 18 and 19 of the Statutory Instruments Act, 2013 annulled the regulations entirely; FURTHER WHEREAS, the National Assembly sent a message to the Senate seeking concurrence to the resolution; NOW THEREFORE, pursuant to Standing Order Nos. 215

(3)

(b)

and 216, the Senate resolves to establish a Joint Committee comprising of the following Senators:-

Proceed.

What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale? On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is a new one. What is the current status of the House?

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! You have been around and you will recall one time when one of our former Speakers was sitting at the Committee of the Whole House on the constitutional debate. He took a five minutes break. You were here with me. So, there is nothing new.

What is it, Sen. Obure? In any case, when it is a request by the Majority Leader to consult his counterpart, it can only be for the good of the House.

Proceed, Sen. Obure.

Order! You are shooting yourself on your foot. You had already discounted that particular bit about Sen. Wetangula’s absence or presence on Thursday. You actually suggested to him to appoint a representative. All of us have been sitting in this Plenary this afternoon. The Senate Minority Leader confirmed that his deputy party leader will be available and therefore, there will be no vacuum. He did not tell us that both of them will be away.

The discussions were on the lines of principals and co-principals and parties, thus very appropriate. I will hold you responsible to your own assertions. In any case, judgments and rulings are different. I can still make a determination on Thursday and mete the punishment another day.

Order, Members! According to Standing Order No. 31, I will allow the Majority Leader to give notice of a Procedural Motion.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion. WHEREAS, the Parliamentary Service

(Senate Monitoring and Evaluation)

Regulations, 2016 were published on 27th September, 2016 and tabled in the Senate and the National Assembly on 4th and 6th, October, 2016, respectively; AWARE, that the Sessional Committee on Delegated Legislation of the Senate considered the said regulations resolved that they be acceded to and pursuant to Standing Order No. 214

(4)

(a)

of the Senate Standing Orders conveyed the said decision to the Parliamentary Service Commission; WHEREAS, the National Assembly considered the said regulations and pursuant to the provisions of Sections 18 and 19 of the Statutory Instruments Act, 2013 annulled the Regulations entirely; FURTHER WHEREAS, the National Assembly sent a Message to the Senate seeking concurrence to the resolution; NOW THEREFORE, pursuant to Standing Order Nos. 215

(3)

(b)

and 216, the Senate resolves to establish a Joint Committee comprising of the following Senators:-

Motion in an amended version? This will ensure that whatever needs to be adhered to is adhered to so that we have a team ready to deal with the issue ahead of us?

Order, Members! To respond to what Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale stated is that there is no precedent being set in terms of skewed distribution along the political parties as long as that has been undertaken with the concurrence of the parties. I will tell you this because Sen (Dr.)Khalwale has been a beneficiary of such concurrence. Hon. Members, I am only giving you observations that are factual.

So, what you are affirming here is the correct one in terms of principle. However, once there is a political agreement, they can always decide what to do.

The other route would have been that, of course, the Motion gets amended. However, this particular Motion is not subject to individual amendments. This is a Motion where you have to deal in terms of the whole; you either accept the list or reject it. So, what we have suggested to the Majority Leader is now to move the Motion in an amended version ab initio.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to move the following in an amended form.

WHEREAS, the Parliamentary Service

(Senate Monitoring and Evaluation)

Regulations, 2016 were published on 27th September, 2016 and tabled in the Senate and the National Assembly on 4th and 6th, October, 2016, respectively; AWARE, that the Sessional Committee on Delegated Legislation of the Senate considered the said regulations resolved that they be acceded to and pursuant to Standing Order No. 214

(4)

(a)

of the Senate Standing Orders conveyed the said decision to the Parliamentary Service Commission; WHEREAS, the National Assembly considered the said regulations and pursuant to the provisions of Sections 18 and 19 of the Statutory Instruments Act, 2013 annulled the regulations entirely; FURTHER WHEREAS, the National Assembly sent a message to the Senate seeking concurrence to the resolution; NOW THEREFORE, pursuant to Standing Order Nos. 215

(3)

(b)

and 216, the Senate resolves to establish a Joint Committee comprising of the following Senators:-

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is not a good reflection for the House to be left in abeyance. We know they may have been consulting for the good of the House but could our two leaders be requested to do these consultations earlier rather than hold us in suspense?

So ordered. That is a good contribution, Sen. Obure. I hope the leaders are listening.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to congratulate the two leaders for being so wise in such a situation that they need a mutual consultation? Would I be in order to also encourage that behavior?

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Machage! I am inclined to agree with you except that I am waiting for the outcome of the consultations.

Proceed, Majority Leader.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Senate Minority Leader in order to try and create a wedge between the Senate Majority Leader and his deputy, when we know they read from the same script? In fact, the Senate Majority Leader has trained his deputy properly and inculcated all the qualities that the Senate Majority Leader has. Is he in order to create a wedge between the Senate Majority Leader and his deputy, when we have always respected him and know that he reads from the same script with his Senate Deputy Minority Leader?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I stand under Standing Order No. 90 (3) . Is the Senate Minority Leader in order to refer to a Senator in this House in a derogatory manner? We all know who Senate Deputy Majority Leader is.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not understand Sen. Sang and Sen. (Dr.) Machage. How does my saying that the Senate Majority Leader has displayed great humility and that I cannot say the same of his deputy drive a wedge between them? This is my perception, understanding and appreciation of the two gentlemen.

Order, Senators! First, this debate should be concluded because it is an agreed position.

Secondly, Sen. (Dr.) Machage referred to Standing Order No. 90 (3) which provides that:-

“It shall be out order to use offensive or insulting language whether in respect of Senators or other persons.”

I do not understand how relativity can be offensive. When we talk of ‘greater,’ the next position is still great. Sen. Sang, by your own admission the instructor and the student cannot be the same.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for that display of enormous wisdom.

I second the Motion in an amended form. The amendment is that at No.11 we are putting Sen. Henry Tiole Ndiema, the Senator for Trans Nzoia. At No.15, we are putting the name of the distinguished Senator for Kisii, Sen. Christopher Obure, in place of Sen. Sonko. This is a matter that we have a common position on and I do not want to belabour too much.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On several occasions in this House, we have had Motions being moved in amended version. These are serious issues because this is a matter that we need to move in a bipartisan manner. Since there are issues, we request the Senate Majority Leader to move this Motion in an amended version and ensure that all of us are reading from the same page. I know the battle ahead of us on this particular matter is very huge. If we have issues with the composition we are unlikely to make headway in terms of the other challenge ahead of us.

Motion in an amended version? This will ensure that whatever needs to be adhered to is adhered to so that we have a team ready to deal with the issue ahead of us?

Order, Members! To respond to what Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale stated is that there is no precedent being set in terms of skewed distribution along the political parties as long as that has been undertaken with the concurrence of the parties. I will tell you this because Sen (Dr.)Khalwale has been a beneficiary of such concurrence. Hon. Members, I am only giving you observations that are factual.

So, what you are affirming here is the correct one in terms of principle. However, once there is a political agreement, they can always decide what to do.

The other route would have been that, of course, the Motion gets amended. However, this particular Motion is not subject to individual amendments. This is a Motion where you have to deal in terms of the whole; you either accept the list or reject it. So, what we have suggested to the Majority Leader is now to move the Motion in an amended version ab initio.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to move the following in an amended form.

WHEREAS, the Parliamentary Service

(Senate Monitoring and Evaluation)

Regulations, 2016 were published on 27th September, 2016 and tabled in the Senate and the National Assembly on 4th and 6th, October, 2016, respectively; AWARE, that the Sessional Committee on Delegated Legislation of the Senate considered the said regulations resolved that they be acceded to and pursuant to Standing Order No. 214

(4)

(a)

of the Senate Standing Orders conveyed the said decision to the Parliamentary Service Commission; WHEREAS, the National Assembly considered the said regulations and pursuant to the provisions of Sections 18 and 19 of the Statutory Instruments Act, 2013 annulled the regulations entirely; FURTHER WHEREAS, the National Assembly sent a message to the Senate seeking concurrence to the resolution; NOW THEREFORE, pursuant to Standing Order Nos. 215

(3)

(b)

and 216, the Senate resolves to establish a Joint Committee comprising of the following Senators:-

the course of devolution.

With those few remarks, I beg to move, and request the Senate Minority Leader to second.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I second the Motion. Allow me to thank you for being soft on us and allowing us to consult even in the process of proceedings. That is the way to go, so that we can make progress. Allow me too to thank the Senate Majority Leader for his humility in accepting whenever he finds that the step taken is not the right one. With that humility that he continuously displays in this House - and I dare say I cannot say the same of his deputy- we are able to make progress.

attend to other matters.

than one; in the manner in which our mandate has been routinely undermined. Last week, we spoke strongly about this unmitigated energy that is being weighed on us.

I thank the Senate Majority Leader for being firm on the matter to the extent that we are in agreement that whether we hang jointly or separately; either way we shall be hanging. This House must stand and defend itself because nobody else will do it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this House must stand and make itself relevant because nobody else will. We have had resistance - and you have said it even from the Chair- from every direction and quarter. Injunctions at the law courts against us are issued like cakes in the market.

We have the Council of Governors (CoG) with a war chest that is singularly put to resist the Senate. We have insulting governors who cannot come to the Senate on invitation or summons even if they are within the law and the Constitution. We have a sister House, the “lower” House, that sees this House as an irrelevant appendage to the institution of Parliament and many others. The relevance of this House shall and will not be pronounced and ring-fenced by anybody other than this House itself. That is why I am happy to see that the committee that we are putting in place is a committee of members who have been in the process of dealing with the issue about this oversight fund. In fact, Sen. Murungi, the first on the list has been the Chair. I hope that if there will be need for Co-Chairs, he is given the privilege and opportunity to continue with that job.

Further, talk of driving a wedge. Whoever drafted the original Motion was trying to bring unnecessary and unhelpful difficulties between the Senate Majority Leader and I because the normal operation of things in this House is that where you are 15, it will be eight from across the Floor and seven from this side of the House. I am happy that you have allowed us to do so, so that we send a Committee with membership that is balanced and representative. I do not want to cast aspersions on anybody, but some of the Members that had been listed have a history of not attending meetings at all. If they were to go to that negotiation Committee and a vote is necessary, we would be disadvantaged ab initio by having one or two Members whose notoriety in non-attendance of meetings is a matter of public knowledge.

This team has one singular duty; to defend the interest and integrity of this House. This House is not on a begging mission. I can see three Members of the Committee here; Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, Sen. Obure and Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Remember the words of the distinguished revolutionary, Che Guevara, where he said: “I would rather die standing than live on my knees.” This House should take that adage that we would rather die standing than live on our knees. To do anything else is to reduce this House to what some people wanted it to be when the Constitution was being crafted. Some called it a House of chiefs, others a House of elders and others a House of provinces and all manner of things. Everybody wanted to avoid the distinguished title “Senate” or “Upper House”.

Be that as it may, when the proper and serious audit of the Constitution comes into place, and there will be men and women of honour, valor and candor to review the Constitution, if wisdom prevails, the dignity and status of this House will be crafted properly in the Constitution. This House is a House of review. Like in all other jurisdictions and we have had an opportunity to visit several of them, this House is, so to speak in lose terms, an appellate House. In proper jurisdiction, all Bills from the National

assent. This time will come.

Anybody who wants to wish away, belittle or undermine the Senate is on a slippery road to nowhere because the people of this country, even out there, respect this House more than any other legislative institution in this country. You hear it from their speeches, reactions and read them from their social correspondence and hear from their radio talks. It is only from this House that you hear somebody from Embu County crying: “We have a problem, where is our Senator?” It is only from this House that you will hear from Nyandarua County, a caller to a radio station saying: “We have a problem. Where is our Senator?” Nobody cries to say: “Where is our so-and-so?” It is because they know that in this House, we are men and women who have been tested and proven to be able to lead this country somewhere.

That is why between the two Houses, this is the only one that can boast of having a serious and credible presidential candidate being put out there to compete with others for the leadership of this country. You must be very proud that after the next elections, you may have one of your own from this House elsewhere that will be looking at this House differently and will assist in having this House be what it should be. I urge---

Where is “elsewhere”?

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki!

He moved the Motion and then walked out. The Senate Monitory Leader seconded and moved out. There are some sentiments and issues we want to raise. They should be here to hear them.

What is it, Sen. Murkomen?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While it is nice and good order for all Senators to sit here and listen to their colleagues, this is a House of records. The Senator for Nyandarua, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, who we respect as a leader in this House, should be aware that when he speaks, he speaks for record and for the nation. He should not worry who it suits and who it does not.

By the way, while attending to his responsibilities in his office, the Senate Majority Leader is also listening to the debate. This House enabled his office, including your office to follow proceedings in this House. I just want to add that I came from the House of Commons and the House of Lords where Members, whether in the Chambers or not, all the precincts or the building are enabled to ensure that Senators and Members of Parliament follow the proceedings.

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this very important Motion. As the Senate of the Republic of Kenya, we find ourselves in a very awkward position. This is the first step. We have done many things before, but this is the first cut off point to decide whether we will go anywhere as a Senate or not. Article 186 of the Constitution created two Houses of Parliament; the Senate and the National Assembly and their functions are clearly defined.

The national funds, that is the Budget of the national Government is taken to the National Assembly, deliberately so by the framers of the Constitution which we approved. The funds which are going to the counties are brought to this House for allocation. Whether it is by formula or whichever method we go by, the fact is that this House is the one which allocates funds to various counties. All over the world, wherever there is democracy, the legislature that allocates funds is the same to oversight.

More so, Article 196 of the Constitution is very clear. This House is not only allocating funds to various counties but also our duty to oversight over those funds.

The Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader have left the House.

He moved the Motion and then walked out. The Senate Monitory Leader seconded and moved out. There are some sentiments and issues we want to raise. They should be here to hear them.

What is it, Sen. Murkomen?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While it is nice and good order for all Senators to sit here and listen to their colleagues, this is a House of records. The Senator for Nyandarua, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, who we respect as a leader in this House, should be aware that when he speaks, he speaks for record and for the nation. He should not worry who it suits and who it does not.

By the way, while attending to his responsibilities in his office, the Senate Majority Leader is also listening to the debate. This House enabled his office, including your office to follow proceedings in this House. I just want to add that I came from the House of Commons and the House of Lords where Members, whether in the Chambers or not, all the precincts or the building are enabled to ensure that Senators and Members of Parliament follow the proceedings.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is good that the Deputy Majority Leader has just come from a house where those facilities are there. Whether you are the majority leading an important Motion like this or another Member is fair. Sen. Murkomen calls it good practice and it is true.

Having said that, I wish to say, when this annulment – I do not know whether it was an annulment or a resolution to annul because the regulations had not come into place, the Parliamentary Service Commission had not effected them. Nonetheless, when this resolution came, if you recall, the media in this country especially two main newspapers were all over the place saying how the National Assembly was right to annul this and that the Senate has no business oversighting funds in the counties.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It does not just end there. I am very honest about some of these things.

I also sleep praying that the elections for next year, because you cannot force people, that I win the election to be the Governor of Kakamega.

Order! I may order you to read loudly Standing Order No.109. However, I will save you on that. Please, stick to the Motion.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will not deviate from the Motion.

The point I am building, and if you will bear with me, is that I am seeing something beyond my speech. I am seeing why in spite of not being the one who will be the Senator in the office in Kakamega, why I need this Senator who will oversight me in Kakamega to be so equipped.

way I was given the privilege to sit on the Parliamentary Joint Committee that reviewed matters concerning the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) and we delivered. I have no doubt that I am going to deliver on this one.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, where did the rain start beating us on this thing? It is because we refused to speak in this House and in public to a non-constitutional provision in this country called CDF. There is no room for CDF. CDF is money meant to go to constituencies which exist in counties. All of us know CDF has made a difference. We needed to align it to the Constitution so that the money is given to the governor as a conditional allocation for onward transmission to the constituencies. We did not do this and allowed Members of the National Assemblyto engage a gear of competition. I have been talking to my senior here, Sen. Obure, whom I have described and he tells me how we wish we had started from there.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is because of this that MPs started competing with governors, and Women Representatives wanted to join. I do not know what they did to the President. They were also given money. If you ask them what they are using the money for, you hear stories which you do not want to write in your autobiography if you were one such a leader. This brings me to the point of oversight.

I want Members to remember that even the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee was never in the Standing Orders of this House. We had to deliberately create it. Somebody at the beginning never wanted this Senate – in spite of the provisions of Article 96 (3) – to oversight monies going to the counties.

So, I support this Fund not because it is CDF. In fact, if I knew or if somebody told me that you want to give me some money to go and start building classrooms, or health centres in Kakamega County, I would refuse because it is a county of two million people, 12 constituencies, 60 wards and 289 sub-locations. What amount of money can you give me that can make me do what the governor is supposed to do?

We would like this little fund to enable the Senator to follow projects and programmes in the county real-time. What do I mean? I mean I look into the future. I see a future, with all due respect to the Jubilee Government, where after the next election we in the opposition, CORD, shall provide this country with a President. It could be that that President will be Baba. It could be that that President will be His Excellency Kalonzo Musyoka. It could very well be that that President will be Moses Masika Wetangula. I understand when the man I admire, Sen. Kiraitu, mocks me. So was Donald Trump mocked by the honchos of not just the Democratic Party, but even from the Republican Party.

Senate and that King whose palace was attacked had a Senator, then the House of reflection would have told the national Government that it is not a threat, it is just a King with excited agitating security guard. I am privileged you, my colleagues Senators and I , that we are serving at this very high level in our lives and let not our service be in vain.

I support.

He has just come!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It does not just end there. I am very honest about some of these things.

I also sleep praying that the elections for next year, because you cannot force people, that I win the election to be the Governor of Kakamega.

Order! I may order you to read loudly Standing Order No.109. However, I will save you on that. Please, stick to the Motion.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will not deviate from the Motion.

The point I am building, and if you will bear with me, is that I am seeing something beyond my speech. I am seeing why in spite of not being the one who will be the Senator in the office in Kakamega, why I need this Senator who will oversight me in Kakamega to be so equipped.

Legislation rubbished and annulled in entirety the regulations that we worked together to develop.

We initially had these regulations under the Public Finance and Management Act (PFMA) but they told us that it was not the right way. Then, we had different arguments but we agreed that we anchor it under the Parliamentary Service Commission. When we did that, they took us back. That is why we are here today discussing regulations that were discussed mutually between the two Committees and the Houses, but they were rejected. We are giving the responsibility to this Committee to go and do a final attempt. What we are pursuing right now, it is unlikely that we shall achieve this and the current Senators will benefit from this Fund. However, we should not tire. We have to ensure that the next Senate will have this infrastructure.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, a number of us in this House have expressed interest in shifting from the current position in the Senate to the counties. However, if I get the opportunity to serve as the Governor of the Nandi County, I would want to have a Senate as a House that is properly equipped with the necessary capacity to carry out oversight. I wish the Members of the National Assembly, Members of county assemblies and their executive arm will appreciate the role that monitoring and evaluation will do in the counties.

I sponsored a Bill in this House; that is the County Development Boards Bill. Some of the issues that will send home most of the incumbent governors is the lack of the coordination and consultation and poor priorities in our counties. If the county development boards had been established, I can assure you that few of the Senators would have developed the intentions of vying for gubernatorial positions. It is most likely that the billions of shillings that were allocated to our counties would have been put into proper use.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, how useful is it for a county government to spend resources in buying curtains for hospitals when the same facilities do not have drugs? How does it make sense for a county government to spend millions of resources to buy ambulances to take people from the villages all the way to a referral hospital when their own county facilities are not working? How else will you ensure that quack doctors do not find their way into our county facilities?

In the case of Nandi County, we were in the news for the wrong reasons. A quack doctor claims that he had performed various successful caesarean sections when the truth is that many mothers have suffered under the hands of this quack doctor. When a whistle- blower raised the issue that the person was not properly trained, the county government promoted him to the position of a medical superintendent. This kind of blatant disregard for the law can only be checked if this House is supported to do its work.

The county assemblies have the legal infrastructure. They have the law on their side. Nobody has challenged the mandate of the county assemblies. However, they do not have the political muscle to hold governors accountable. They do not have the political muscle. In this House, the law is weak in terms of supporting this House to carry out oversight but we have the political muscle to hold governors accountable. That is why you have seen governors running around trying to use the law to avoid accountability by this House.

Kepeloi and I visited Kepeloi Health Centre. I was shocked that the maternity ward had no beddings for our mothers. When I called the County Director of Medical Services, he told me that there were over 300 beds lying within the county referral hospital. Nobody has taken the initiative of ensuring that the health facilities in the villages are equipped with the necessary support.

If we had support for Senators, they would commission a survey and check the way the counties are running around and executing their budgets. We would have identified some of these loopholes in good time to ensure that county residents get necessary facilities.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I congratulate Sen. Murungi who is leading this team for his patience. Some of us ran out of patience long time ago when we realised that the Committee in the National Assembly was taking us round in circles. Sen. Murungi has been faithful to this course and pursued it. This is one battle that the Senate should not allow itself to lose. It is about the prosperity of this country and this House. We need to ensure that we set the right infrastructure for the next Senate and give them the necessary support to carry out their three responsibilities.

I have a request for Senators who might succeed to be elected governors. I hope we will not have the same story in this House next year when the same characters who have been in this House raising issues will then be the ones who will be forced to appear before the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee through warrants of arrest. I ask Sen. Murungi who will be the Governor for Meru, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale who will be the Governor for Kakamega and myself, that we must be able to show magnanimity and fidelity to the law. In fact, if they believed in the Sang law that we passed in this House, we would be far as a country.

I would want to see Sen. Murungi being the Secretary of the Meru County Development Board and Hon. Mithika Linturi chairing that board and ensuring that Meru County gets the kind of support and development that is needed. We need to run an all- inclusive governments in counties. I am sure that we were not power hungry as Senators when we passed that law. However, we believed in it and we want to ensure that we implement it.

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Sang, do you accept to be informed?

Yes, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Legislation rubbished and annulled in entirety the regulations that we worked together to develop.

We initially had these regulations under the Public Finance and Management Act (PFMA) but they told us that it was not the right way. Then, we had different arguments but we agreed that we anchor it under the Parliamentary Service Commission. When we did that, they took us back. That is why we are here today discussing regulations that were discussed mutually between the two Committees and the Houses, but they were rejected. We are giving the responsibility to this Committee to go and do a final attempt. What we are pursuing right now, it is unlikely that we shall achieve this and the current Senators will benefit from this Fund. However, we should not tire. We have to ensure that the next Senate will have this infrastructure.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, a number of us in this House have expressed interest in shifting from the current position in the Senate to the counties. However, if I get the opportunity to serve as the Governor of the Nandi County, I would want to have a Senate as a House that is properly equipped with the necessary capacity to carry out oversight. I wish the Members of the National Assembly, Members of county assemblies and their executive arm will appreciate the role that monitoring and evaluation will do in the counties.

I sponsored a Bill in this House; that is the County Development Boards Bill. Some of the issues that will send home most of the incumbent governors is the lack of the coordination and consultation and poor priorities in our counties. If the county development boards had been established, I can assure you that few of the Senators would have developed the intentions of vying for gubernatorial positions. It is most likely that the billions of shillings that were allocated to our counties would have been put into proper use.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, how useful is it for a county government to spend resources in buying curtains for hospitals when the same facilities do not have drugs? How does it make sense for a county government to spend millions of resources to buy ambulances to take people from the villages all the way to a referral hospital when their own county facilities are not working? How else will you ensure that quack doctors do not find their way into our county facilities?

In the case of Nandi County, we were in the news for the wrong reasons. A quack doctor claims that he had performed various successful caesarean sections when the truth is that many mothers have suffered under the hands of this quack doctor. When a whistle- blower raised the issue that the person was not properly trained, the county government promoted him to the position of a medical superintendent. This kind of blatant disregard for the law can only be checked if this House is supported to do its work.

The county assemblies have the legal infrastructure. They have the law on their side. Nobody has challenged the mandate of the county assemblies. However, they do not have the political muscle to hold governors accountable. They do not have the political muscle. In this House, the law is weak in terms of supporting this House to carry out oversight but we have the political muscle to hold governors accountable. That is why you have seen governors running around trying to use the law to avoid accountability by this House.

Kepeloi and I visited Kepeloi Health Centre. I was shocked that the maternity ward had no beddings for our mothers. When I called the County Director of Medical Services, he told me that there were over 300 beds lying within the county referral hospital. Nobody has taken the initiative of ensuring that the health facilities in the villages are equipped with the necessary support.

If we had support for Senators, they would commission a survey and check the way the counties are running around and executing their budgets. We would have identified some of these loopholes in good time to ensure that county residents get necessary facilities.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I congratulate Sen. Murungi who is leading this team for his patience. Some of us ran out of patience long time ago when we realised that the Committee in the National Assembly was taking us round in circles. Sen. Murungi has been faithful to this course and pursued it. This is one battle that the Senate should not allow itself to lose. It is about the prosperity of this country and this House. We need to ensure that we set the right infrastructure for the next Senate and give them the necessary support to carry out their three responsibilities.

I have a request for Senators who might succeed to be elected governors. I hope we will not have the same story in this House next year when the same characters who have been in this House raising issues will then be the ones who will be forced to appear before the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee through warrants of arrest. I ask Sen. Murungi who will be the Governor for Meru, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale who will be the Governor for Kakamega and myself, that we must be able to show magnanimity and fidelity to the law. In fact, if they believed in the Sang law that we passed in this House, we would be far as a country.

I would want to see Sen. Murungi being the Secretary of the Meru County Development Board and Hon. Mithika Linturi chairing that board and ensuring that Meru County gets the kind of support and development that is needed. We need to run an all- inclusive governments in counties. I am sure that we were not power hungry as Senators when we passed that law. However, we believed in it and we want to ensure that we implement it.

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Sang, do you accept to be informed?

Yes, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is true we were all very disappointed when this House passed the Sang Bill establishing the County Development Boards across all the counties. That Bill was passed in the National Assembly too and assented to by the President. However, these rogue governors ganged up and went to court and blocked its implementation. I want to assure Sen. Sang that immediately I become the Governor for Meru County, whether that law is still in court or not, we will establish the Meru County Development Board and the Governor, Kiraitu Murungi, will be the secretary and the Senator for Meru, Mithika Linturi, will be the Chairperson.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you very much for this opportunity. First of all, I take this early opportunity to thank Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for the kind words that he said in reference to myself. I feel very humbled.

This Motion is about devolution and how to strengthen it in order to meet the hopes and aspirations of Kenyans wherever they live.

One of the major functions of Senators is to oversight the work of the county governments; to oversight their programmes, activities and projects so that we can ensure the resources allocated are properly and effectively utilized to meet the objectives of devolution mainly to improve the welfare of our people. We are all aware of what has been going on in the counties. We see high level of corruption, misallocation of resources and empty promises which have been given in the last three or four years. In summary, we all know that there is nothing to show on the ground in the last four years. This is largely so because we have not been able to undertake that aspect of our role; namely, oversight.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I just want to confirm with Sen. Sang whether he is a seer such that he has foreseen who will be elected Governor and Senator for Meru. To the best of our knowledge, ---

Could you frame your point of order properly; otherwise, I will rule you out of order?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is Sen. Sang in order to foresee what may happen in Meru County next year? It would be in order to inform the House whether he has some documents or a gift in foretelling. Maybe he can also serve well to inform us in this House whether we will come back or not. We know ---

Whereas it is juicy, the only problem is that Sen. Sang was not on his feet when you raised that order. So, I rule you out of order.

initial rejection by the Budget and Appropriations Committee of the National Assembly. As I speak, there is Kshs1 billion for Senate oversight within the funds allocated to the Parliamentary Service Commission.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what we have now is merely a procedural struggle of how the Senate will access the money, which is already within the provisions of the Parliamentary Service Commission. The initial regulations were made under Section 24 of the Public Finance Management Act. When the regulations were published, they were taken to the Committee on Delegated Legislation of the National Assembly. They invited us for a meeting, which we attended with the lawyers of the Commission who had helped us to draft the regulations, and they came with their own lawyers from the National Assembly. We read those regulations one by one.

The only problem then, as far as the law was concerned, was that we had used the wrong enabling statute; the Public Finance Management Act. Ours was an internal fund of the Parliamentary Service Commission and not a fund in the National Treasury. Therefore, we all agreed that the regulations should be withdrawn and new ones be made under the Public Service Commission Act. We needed to change the title and the enabling provisions, which was the only thing that was found to be legally or technically wrong.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in the course of the debate between us and the Members of the National Assembly, other side issues were raised, for example, whether the Nominated Members of the Senate should benefit from this Fund. I listened to the Kenya Broadcasting Corporation (KBC) when Sen. Beth Mugo was contributing and what she said was correct. Whether or not Nominated Senators should benefit from the Fund was not an issue of the National Assembly; it was an issue of the Senate. We informed them that, in our view, it would be unconstitutional for us to leave the Nominated Senators out of this Fund because they represent certain national constituencies. We also have Nominated Senators who represent the youth and persons with disabilities. They need to benefit from the Fund, so that they can also oversight the counties with regard to the constituencies which they represent in the Senate.

However, it also dawned on us that some of those Members had personal interests. There are two Members from Nairobi who are very adamant on this. I have the right to name them here for the record. There was the Member for Dagoretti, hon. Simba Arati, who was opposed to the nominated Senators getting this Fund because Sen. Elachi, who is the Senate Majority Whip, has expressed interest in the same seat. He knows that if Sen. Elachi accesses this Fund, then the funds will be used to complicate the campaign in Dagoretti. The other person who opposed the regulations on the basis that nominated Senators would benefit is hon. T.J. Kajwang who represents another constituency in Nairobi. His issue was about one of the nominated Senators who usually sits sometimes where you are, has also expressed interest in that seat.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, therefore, it is these two hon. Members who drive the agenda for rejection of the rules largely for their own personal interests. We discussed with them and were able to convince Members of the Committee on Delegated Legislation of the National Assembly; that these were not sufficient grounds on which the rules could be annulled. It was agreed that once the old rules and the Public Finance

There is a Swahili saying which I will remind the Members. It says “Usikate kanzu kabla mtoto hajazaliwa.” Tafakari.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you very much for this opportunity. First of all, I take this early opportunity to thank Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for the kind words that he said in reference to myself. I feel very humbled.

This Motion is about devolution and how to strengthen it in order to meet the hopes and aspirations of Kenyans wherever they live.

One of the major functions of Senators is to oversight the work of the county governments; to oversight their programmes, activities and projects so that we can ensure the resources allocated are properly and effectively utilized to meet the objectives of devolution mainly to improve the welfare of our people. We are all aware of what has been going on in the counties. We see high level of corruption, misallocation of resources and empty promises which have been given in the last three or four years. In summary, we all know that there is nothing to show on the ground in the last four years. This is largely so because we have not been able to undertake that aspect of our role; namely, oversight.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we know you are a surgeon. You do not really rely on your eyes.

It is a “Y” chromosome linked deficiency. I hope you understand that.

initial rejection by the Budget and Appropriations Committee of the National Assembly. As I speak, there is Kshs1 billion for Senate oversight within the funds allocated to the Parliamentary Service Commission.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what we have now is merely a procedural struggle of how the Senate will access the money, which is already within the provisions of the Parliamentary Service Commission. The initial regulations were made under Section 24 of the Public Finance Management Act. When the regulations were published, they were taken to the Committee on Delegated Legislation of the National Assembly. They invited us for a meeting, which we attended with the lawyers of the Commission who had helped us to draft the regulations, and they came with their own lawyers from the National Assembly. We read those regulations one by one.

The only problem then, as far as the law was concerned, was that we had used the wrong enabling statute; the Public Finance Management Act. Ours was an internal fund of the Parliamentary Service Commission and not a fund in the National Treasury. Therefore, we all agreed that the regulations should be withdrawn and new ones be made under the Public Service Commission Act. We needed to change the title and the enabling provisions, which was the only thing that was found to be legally or technically wrong.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in the course of the debate between us and the Members of the National Assembly, other side issues were raised, for example, whether the Nominated Members of the Senate should benefit from this Fund. I listened to the Kenya Broadcasting Corporation (KBC) when Sen. Beth Mugo was contributing and what she said was correct. Whether or not Nominated Senators should benefit from the Fund was not an issue of the National Assembly; it was an issue of the Senate. We informed them that, in our view, it would be unconstitutional for us to leave the Nominated Senators out of this Fund because they represent certain national constituencies. We also have Nominated Senators who represent the youth and persons with disabilities. They need to benefit from the Fund, so that they can also oversight the counties with regard to the constituencies which they represent in the Senate.

However, it also dawned on us that some of those Members had personal interests. There are two Members from Nairobi who are very adamant on this. I have the right to name them here for the record. There was the Member for Dagoretti, hon. Simba Arati, who was opposed to the nominated Senators getting this Fund because Sen. Elachi, who is the Senate Majority Whip, has expressed interest in the same seat. He knows that if Sen. Elachi accesses this Fund, then the funds will be used to complicate the campaign in Dagoretti. The other person who opposed the regulations on the basis that nominated Senators would benefit is hon. T.J. Kajwang who represents another constituency in Nairobi. His issue was about one of the nominated Senators who usually sits sometimes where you are, has also expressed interest in that seat.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, therefore, it is these two hon. Members who drive the agenda for rejection of the rules largely for their own personal interests. We discussed with them and were able to convince Members of the Committee on Delegated Legislation of the National Assembly; that these were not sufficient grounds on which the rules could be annulled. It was agreed that once the old rules and the Public Finance

Service Commission Act, there would be no debate between us and them. All the issues had been cleared. What was left was a technical exercise for the old rules to be taken to the Speaker to do a revocation notice which was done by Speaker Justin Muturi. I highly commend him for that.

The new rules were again now published under the Parliamentary Service Commission Act as agreed by our lawyers and their lawyers, their committee and our committee. Therefore, there was an agreement between the two Houses regarding the new set of rules. We also read the new set of rules word for word between our committee and their committee before those rules were sent for publication. We wanted to ensure that the comas and the full-stops were in the right place. When the rules were finally brought to this House---

Conclude. You have 30 seconds. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, give him two more minutes. He is our chairperson.

Sorry, you still have a lot of time; five minutes. Somebody had wrongly put on a red light. And being male, colour blindness is not uncommon.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we know you are a surgeon. You do not really rely on your eyes.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what I am saying here is that we have been talking about this matter for a long time. It is now two years and nothing has happened.

We have been talking about this matter for a long time. Two years down the line, nothing has happened. When you talk about something and nothing happens, what do you do? Finally, it is only to speak the way we are speaking here towards the end of the journey. It is very difficult for us to move anywhere. Those who are refusing with this kind of resources know how many more months are remaining before the term of this Parliament ends.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Constitution is a political document. When anyone thinks that he is talking about the Constitution based on many other things, he must always understand those who are on the other side of the coin. What is the reason for them to raise these issues? Here we find ourselves in a very difficult position but we

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will ask the lawyer, Sen. Wetangula, to help me interpret that because lawyers know many things.

When this new set of rules we had agreed on were published and brought to the House, we did not expect any debate at all because we had agreed. Indeed, when they were tabled before the Senate and taken to the Committee on Delegated Legislation, our Committee passed them. When they were taken to the Committee on Delegated Legislation of the National Assembly, we were informed that even before the Committee sat, those two Members whom I have mentioned; hon. T.J Kajwang and hon. Simba Arati, had raised new issues and they were saying the rules have not been published under the Public Finance and Management Act, 2012.

They are the same people with whom we had agreed that the rules should be published under the Parliamentary Service Commission Act. So, they invited Mrs. Phyllis Makau from the Parliamentary Budget office and asked her one question: Are these rules published and can a fund be established without reference to the Public Finance Management Act, 2012? They did not give her the details or the history. When she said the funds should be established under the Public Finance Management Act, 2012, they said it was okay. They wrote a report saying these rules should be allowed because they had not been published under the Public Finance Management Act, 2012.

dishonest. Indeed, we would not be having this Motion today if Members were honourable and dignified.

Order! May I remind you of your own Standing Order No. 90 (5) which says it shall be out of order for a Senator to criticize or call into question the proceeding in the National Assembly. So, walk carefully. Do not over do it.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I feel pain when you sit down with lawyers, you agree and then they turn around and stab you in the back. We requested to be invited for that meeting by the Committee on Delegated Legislation of the National Assembly. They rushed there, they did not invite us and the same afternoon, the report was before the National Assembly. So, I feel a lot of pain about this.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there appears to be a broad conspiracy to make sure that this Senate is merely a debating club and that it does not deliver. That is why there are so many pieces of legislation passed by the Senate and still pending in the National Assembly. Next year, you will hear some people calling for the Senate to be abolished because it has not passed any laws. They themselves are the ones who have caused those laws not to be published. It gives me a lot of pain that the devolution which we fought for, the county governments for which we fought have now become a burden---

Very well. Sen. Kariuki Geoffrey Gitahi!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, first, may I correct you. My name is Sen. (Dr.) G.G Kariuki.

Pardon me; Sen. (Dr.) G.G Kariuki. Let that be recorded properly. What is it, Sen. Wetangula?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the distinguished Senator to say his name is (Dr.) G.G Kariuki when, in fact, doctor is a title but not a name? Sen. G.G Kariuki is his name but he is (Dr.) G.G Kariuki; if you want to---. I congratulate him for getting a doctorate. I have no problem with that. It is just English usage. I hear people saying I am Hon. So-and so---

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what I am saying here is that we have been talking about this matter for a long time. It is now two years and nothing has happened.

We have been talking about this matter for a long time. Two years down the line, nothing has happened. When you talk about something and nothing happens, what do you do? Finally, it is only to speak the way we are speaking here towards the end of the journey. It is very difficult for us to move anywhere. Those who are refusing with this kind of resources know how many more months are remaining before the term of this Parliament ends.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Constitution is a political document. When anyone thinks that he is talking about the Constitution based on many other things, he must always understand those who are on the other side of the coin. What is the reason for them to raise these issues? Here we find ourselves in a very difficult position but we

You are talking to me and not Sen. (Dr.) G.G. Kariuki. On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

because you can see him at any time. He negotiates but he has lieutenants who will not allow him to decide by himself. Let us not pass blame to anyone.

First, the blame is in this House. We have not conducted ourselves properly. Secondly, the National Assembly is to blame for conducting themselves mischievously. We have a big stake here.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, may be you will be back and the biggest challenge that you will have are the governors. Let us not pride ourselves that things are changing. They may not change at all unless we start from the word go. We should try to recognise others. We went as far as fighting with the Judiciary because we felt that everybody is not supporting the Senate. They asked us why we want to be supported. They said we are already supported by the Constitution. It is clear just like daylight. The Constitution supports this Senate in a big way.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was very concerned about the seat I was vying for. I was interested in understanding how the Senate would function. I read the article of the Constitution on the role of the Senate. Finally, when we were elected to this House, I did not know there would be other forces that wanted to become “Crown Counsel”. The journey is long. Sen. Murungi has narrated how they started this journey one-and-a-half years ago. The road has been difficult, but up to now, we are not yet there. In fact, I do not see it.

It is not within our visibility unless, as I said from the word go, being a public document, the Constitution is not a lawyers’ document. Lawyers’ documents deal with municipal laws, where they are given by interpretation on what the law says. It is not for them to read the Constitution and say; “This is what the Constitution says.”Those who have read the Constitution and who have been in school for some time will tell you that if you want to interpret the Constitution, you must understand the mentality and intention of those who passed a particular article since they had some ideas which must be seen by any person interpreting the law. We have been interpreting what they have been saying and what their intentions were. They may not have written it properly for all of us to understand, however, the intentions are clear.

I appeal to my friend across whom I really respect - he is a very good debater and speaks very well. Please, let us forget personal ego and people thinking they have done well. Let us leave this to people like you and myself. If we sit down with Sen. Wetangula, Sen. Murungi, the Speaker and I, this issue will come to an end. However, when we say this and that from this sitting yet we are few, how do you expect that they will listen to us? They will say; “No, they abused another Member. We will not listen to them.”

In the case of the Joint Committee, suppose we say we will not have it, which law will protect you? This will just die. That is where we are aiming at. So, Sen. Wetangula, next time, try to get some people who understand politics in those committees that you take people because of loyalty test. I particularly have failed this test; there is no committee that you can see me being recommended to.

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

There is no need.

You are again anticipating debate. You are out of order.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there will be no further debate on this.

Very well. Continue, Sen. (Dr) .

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was about to withdraw my generosity because he went beyond the limit.

I want to appeal to the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader to consult each other when it comes to nominating Members to serve in committees. We are not here to promote people. Even if we were to stay here for many years, there are people who can never improve.

Order! I will use Standing Order No. 54 (1) and (2) . I do not need a Senator to reply, unless he or she so wishes. Since this is not a county issue, I will now put the Question.

You are talking to me and not Sen. (Dr.) G.G. Kariuki. On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

I think you better give me the information.

Do you accept to be informed or you were coerced to accept?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I accept. He is a senior Member.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to inform the distinguished Senator for Laikipia, Sen. (Dr.) G.G Kariuki, that the point he is making is okay. We removed the Senator for Nairobi because even if we retained his name, he would not attend any meeting. That is why we have faith in Sen. Kiraitu Murungi. I suggested on the Floor that when the team goes, my troops are instructed--

Order, Sen. Wetangula. If you have to talk on the character of a Senator, you must be on a substantive Motion. You cannot talk about the Senator for Nairobi like that.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have already instructed my troops that when they go to the Committee, Sen. Kiraitu should be the Chairman or the Co-Chair because he understands politics and the process.

You are again anticipating debate. You are out of order.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there will be no further debate on this.

Very well. Continue, Sen. (Dr) .

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was about to withdraw my generosity because he went beyond the limit.

I want to appeal to the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader to consult each other when it comes to nominating Members to serve in committees. We are not here to promote people. Even if we were to stay here for many years, there are people who can never improve.

Order! I will use Standing Order No. 54 (1) and (2) . I do not need a Senator to reply, unless he or she so wishes. Since this is not a county issue, I will now put the Question.

Hon. Senators, it is now time to interrupt the proceedings of the Senate. The Senate, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 30th November, 2016, at 2.30 p.m.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.