Tuesday, 29th August, 2023 Special Sitting

Clerk, do we have quorum?

Serjeant-at-arms, please ring the Quorum Bell for 10 minutes.

Serjeant-at-Arms, I am informed that we now have quorum. So, kindly stop the Bell.

Clerk, kindly proceed to call the first Order.

Hon. Senators, I welcome you to this Special Sitting of the Senate. I regret to interrupt your recess, but this has been necessitated by urgent legislative business, which requires to be dispensed with.

On the request of the Senate Majority Leader via a letter Reference No. Senator/MLS/06/S.S/O dated 24th August, 2023, and with the support of the requisite number of Senators, I appointed today, Tuesday, 29th, August, 2023, as a day for a Special Sitting of the Senate.

The appointment was made by Gazette Notice No.11081, dated 24th August,

Order, Sen. Lomenen! Hon. Senator!

Hon. Senators, I wish to report to the Senate that pursuant to Standing Order No.47, I received a Message from His Excellency, the Hon. William Ruto, PhD, CGH, the President of the Republic of Kenya and Commander in Chief of the Kenya Defence

Forces on the nomination for appointment of Mr. Andrew Mukite Musangi to the position of Chairperson of the Board of Directors of the Central Bank of Kenya.

The Message was transmitted to the Senate via the letter Reference No.OP/CAB/26/4A Vol.2/38, dated 3rd August, 2023 by the Chief of Staff and Head of Public Service (PSC), Mr. Felix K. Kosgei, while the Senate was on recess and transmitted to Hon. Senators pursuant to Standing Order No.47(2) of the Senate Standing Orders.

I shall now report the Message to the Senate. “You are most graciously notified that His Excellency Hon. William Somalia Ruto, PhD, CGH, President and Commander and Chief of the Kenya Defence Forces has on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission nominated a candidate for appointment as the Chairperson of the Board of Directors of the Central Bank of Kenya.

It is noted that Section 11(2) (a) of the Central Bank of Kenya Act, Cap.491 of the Laws of Kenya, settle the process of appointment of the Chairperson of the Central Bank of Kenya and it thus reads,

“The Chairperson shall be appointed by the President through a transparent and competitive process and with the approval of Parliament and shall hold office for a time of four years, but shall be eligible for reappointment for one further term.”

In that regard and in accordance with the procedure set out in Sections 3 and 5 of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act No.33 of 2011, as read together with Sections 11(2) and 11(2)(a) of the Central Bank of Kenya Act, we submit to both Houses of Parliament the Presidential nomination of Mr. Andrew Mukite Musangi for appointment as the Chairperson of the Central Bank of Kenya.

To aid Parliament in its consideration and approval processes, we have the pleasure of forwarding herewith the Certificate of Presidential Nomination No.15 of 2023, together with the nominees' Curriculum Vitae and testimonials, and the report of the Public Service Commission on the recruitment of the nominee.

Hon. Senators, Section 3 of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act states that an appointment under the Constitution or another law for which the approval of Parliament is required shall not be made unless the appointment is approved or deemed to have been approved by Parliament in accordance with this Act.

Standing Order No.47(1) of the Senate Standing Orders provides that upon receipt of notification of nomination for appointments to a public office required to be approved by the Senate under the Constitution or any other legislation, the nomination shall stand committed to the relevant Standing Committee for consideration.

As was agreed and executed during previous approvals for nominations such as the position of the Governor of the Central Bank of Kenya, the Message from His Excellency the President, together with the Curriculum Vitae of the nominee, stands committed to the relevant Committee, in this case, the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget for approval hearing. The Committee will hold the approval hearing jointly with the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade of the National Assembly, in accordance with the provisions of the Central Bank of Kenya Act and the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act and the Standing Orders of the Houses of the Parliament.

Section 8 of the same Act provides that - “Unless otherwise provided in any law, a Committee shall consider a nomination and table its report in the relevant House for debate and decision within 14 days from the date on which the notification of nomination was given in accordance with Section 5.

At the conclusion of an approval hearing, the Committee shall prepare its report on the suitability of the candidate to be appointed to the office to which the candidate has been nominated, and shall include in the report, such recommendations as the Committee may consider necessary.”

In this regard, the period on the matter that is now before Parliament starts running upon the Speakers of the Houses of Parliament committing the name of the nominee to the relevant Committees in the Senate and in the National Assembly.

Standing Order No.230 (Joint Sittings of Corresponding Committees of the Senate and National Assembly) shall apply during the approval hearing.

I urge the Committees to expeditiously consider this matter and table a report thereon within the stipulated timelines.

Hon. Senators, you may walk in.

Hon. Senators, I wish to report to the Senate that, pursuant to Standing Order Nos.46 (3) and (5) , I received a Message from the Speaker of the National Assembly, while the Senate was on recess, regarding the passage of the Climate Change (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.42 of 2023) . The Message, which is dated Thursday 24th August, 2023 was received on Friday, 25th August, 2023 in the Office of the Clerk of the Senate.

Pursuant to the Said Standing Order, I now report the Message. “Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 41 (1) and 142 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, I hereby convey the following Message from the National Assembly.

WHEREAS, the Climate Change (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.42 of 2023) was published via Kenya Gazette Supplement No.127 of July 2023 as a Bill seeking to amend the Climate Change Act, 2016 to provide for the regulation of carbon markets in order to enhance response to climate change and provide mechanisms and measures to achieve low carbon climate resilient development;

AND WHEREAS the Climate Change (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.42 of 2023) was passed by the National Assembly on Wednesday 23rd August, 2023 with amendments and in the form attached herewith;

NOW THEREFORE, in accordance with the provisions of Article 110 of the Constitution and Standing Orders No.41(1) and 142 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, I hereby convey the said decision of the National Assembly to the Senate.”

Hon. Senators, pursuant to Standing Order No.163 a Bill originating from the National Assembly is required to be proceeded in the manner as a Bill introduced in the Senate by way of First Reading.

In accordance with Standing Order No.144, I direct that at the appropriate time during this Sitting, the said Bill be read for the First Time.

Hon. Senators, appreciating the importance of this matter, I directed that a Notice of Motion and Motion be scheduled in the Order Paper for this Special Sitting for consideration and adoption.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for this golden opportunity. I welcome the Serjeant-at-Arms from Turkana County. For now, I will not refer to them as Serjeant-at-Arms, but my employers. I am here because of their votes. I congratulate them for visiting the Senate to learn and replicate best practices from here. I assure them that this is a wonderful House and we have great Serjeant-at-Arm who will train them.

I thank them for travelling from the furthest corner of this nation. I pray to God to give them journey mercies on their way back. Since I have been allowed only one minute, I will see them outside the Chamber.

Next Order, Clerk.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion on the establishment of the National Dialogue Committee -

AWARE THAT Article 1 (1) of the Constitution provides that all sovereign power belongs to the people of Kenya and shall be exercised only in accordance with the Constitution;

FURTHER AWARE that Article 1 (2) of the Constitution provides that the people of Kenya may exercise their sovereign power either directly or through their democratically elected representatives;

CONSCIOUS that Article 10 of the Constitution espouses the national values and principles of governance, which include the rule of law, democracy and participation of the people;

FURTHER CONSCIOUS that Article 94 of the Constitution provides that Parliament manifests the diversity of the nation, represents the will of the people, and exercises their sovereignty;

RECOGNISING that there is a need to embrace consultation, dialogue and consensus building as a way of resolving issues of concern to the people of Kenya;

COGNIZANT that despite the constitutional and legal reforms on the electoral processes and the electoral laws, after every election cycle there has been mistrust of electoral outcomes, leaving the country divided;

FURTHER COGNIZANT that efforts to enhance constitutionalism, the rule of law and respect for human rights need to be promoted;

AWARE that there have been previous calls and attempts at building consensus on issues of concern to the people of Kenya through bi-partisan engagements in Parliament;

APPRECIATING the need to establish an inclusive forum for dialogue, consultation and consensus building in seeking to promote the peace, stability and prosperity of the country;

ACKNOWLEDGING THAT the Majority Party in Parliament and the Minority Party in Parliament have agreed to embrace dialogue through the establishment of a National Dialogue Committee to recommend a way forward on issues of concern to the people of Kenya;

NOW, THEREFORE, the Houses of Parliament RESOLVE AS

Next Order.

Hon. Senators, kindly take your seats. Before we proceed to the next Order, allow me to make the following Communication.

I would like to acknowledge the presence, in the Public Gallery this morning, of a visiting delegation from St. Brigid Academy, Elgeyo-Marakwet County. The Delegation consists of 56 pupils and 10 teachers. On behalf of the Senate and my own behalf, I welcome the Delegation and wish them a fruitful visit.

I will allow Sen. Kisang’, under one minute, to say a word of welcome.

Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of the Senate, I take this opportunity to welcome St. Brigid Academy from Keiyo South, Elgeyo-Marakwet County to the Senate. This is one of our schools that does very well. Last year, their Kenya Certificate of Primary Education (KCPE) Mean Grade was 392.

Welcome to the Senate. Congratulations and enjoy yourselves while you are here. Listen to our discussions. I believe some of you, in future, will be in this House and others in the National Assembly. Others will become governors and even presidents.

Thank you and karibuni. I will see you shortly when you are out there.

Next Order. Hon. Senators, pursuant to Standing Order No.45 (2) , allow me to re-arrange the sequence of today’s Order Paper.

We will proceed with Order No.11 and thereafter, come back to Order Nos. 9 and

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion-

AWARE THAT Article 1 (1) of the Constitution provides that all sovereign power belongs to the people of Kenya and shall be exercised only in accordance with the Constitution;

FURTHER AWARE that Article 1 (2) of the Constitution provides that the people of Kenya may exercise their sovereign power either directly or through their democratically elected representatives;

CONSCIOUS that Article 10 of the Constitution espouses the national values and principles of governance, which include the rule of law, democracy and participation of the people;

FURTHER CONSCIOUS that Article 94 of the Constitution provides that Parliament manifests the diversity of the Nation, represents the will of the people, and exercises their sovereignty;

RECOGNISING that there is a need to embrace consultation, dialogue and consensus-building as a way of resolving issues of concern to the people of Kenya;

COGNIZANT that despite the constitutional and legal reforms on the electoral processes and the electoral laws, after every election cycle there has been mistrust of electoral outcomes, leaving the country divided;

FURTHER COGNIZANT that efforts to enhance constitutionalism, the rule of law and respect for human rights need to be promoted;

AWARE that there have been previous calls and attempts at building consensus on issues of concern to the people of Kenya through bi-partisan engagements in Parliament;

APPRECIATING the need to establish an inclusive forum for dialogue, consultation and consensus-building in seeking to promote the peace, stability and prosperity of the country;

ACKNOWLEDGING THAT the Majority Party in Parliament and the Minority Party in Parliament have agreed to embrace dialogue through the establishment of a National Dialogue Committee to recommend a way forward on issues of concern to the people of Kenya;

NOW, THEREFORE, the Houses of Parliament RESOLVE AS FOLLOWS:-

However, we are all aware that as a House we were on recess, but we felt that given the urgency and importance that this Committee and the sacred nature of the assignment that is before them, it would be unfair to us as a House if we carried on with our recess and wait until mid of September to come and pass this Motion. We would continue to carry on the long wrongly-held belief that Senate is a second thought. The Senate of the Republic of Kenya is not a second thought.

The people of Kenya bequeathed unto themselves this House and believe that it carries equal, if not even far more important powers, than that of the National Assembly, especially on matters that are of great national importance such as the one that is before us.

It is in light of this that I sought the concurrence of our colleagues including the leadership of the Minority side. We then signed on to have this Special Sitting and consider this particular matter alongside other urgent business that is before us today. However, of importance is we get to sit down and seek the endorsement of our colleagues from Parliament.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you have heard me read from Article 1(2) of our Constitution that Parliament represents the diversity of our people. When we gather here, it is the gathering of all the 45 million Kenyans plus.

Since it was not possible to have all of us as the people of Kenya gather in one place at one particular time and location, therefore, Kenyans elect their representatives. On many occasions, they speak either directly as a people or indirectly through their representatives.

Through the donated power that these Members in this House carry, we are seeking the blessing of the people of Kenya to sit at a table and reason together. This is in follow for those of us that profess the Christian faith. We are urged many times in the Bible that our good Lord reminds us that when there are challenges, it is good to come, sit down and reason together.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is on that basis that we have had this opportunity to sit down and listen to one another. It does not mean that for all the things that are on the table, we shall eventually agree. However, at least there is nothing better than giving an ear to the person that holds a contrary view to whatever positions that you hold.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is how great democracies are built by learning the art and the discipline of listening to one another even when you do not agree. Nations have gone to war because people stopped talking to one another and they felt that the only important noise is the sound of guns and bombs. That is not the route we want to take as a country. Kenya has existed as a Republic for over 60 years. It is not because those who were in leadership at that time did not face challenges. They did but found ways of surmounting them by coming together and reasoning.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in fact, I may be quite young and the truth of the matter is that I never saw the first President of this Republic; President Jomo Kenyatta. However, as a student in primary and high school before he retired, I saw through the leadership of President Moi, followed by President Mwai Kibaki. I had become an adult then. I also saw the leadership of President Uhuru Kenyatta who has just retired. We had the opportunity to serve in one political party.

I recall that in each of those presidencies, there were moments when they sat back and reflected with colleagues across the Floor. In fact, back then, it was easy because Presidents were Members of Parliament (MPs). Therefore, they would dialogue easily sometimes, either through Motions such as this one presently, on the Floor of the House. Quite a number including yourself had the opportunity to serve.

I urge my colleagues respectfully; let us support this Motion and agree with the proposal to send our colleagues to listen to each other. Give them your blessings and share whatever thoughts. We know you have different opinions on many of these issues.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I report to this House that in last week’s meeting, we framed the issues and reduced the agenda of what our colleagues from the Minority side considered. They are issues worth conversing about together with issues from the Majority side. We have five key thematic areas, which we shall consider tomorrow at the Bomas of Kenya (BOK). Some are of constitutional and legislative nature and others are to do with policy. We shall sit down and agree. Where we are unable to agree for one reason or another, we shall come back and report to this House.

Our colleagues will have the opportunity to speak and share their thoughts and ways they feel the issues need to be resolved. I believe we are doing this in the best interest of the country. I know people have varied opinions about these issues. I assure my colleagues in the House because I know that initially when the agenda was listed, there was one particular issue that was quite key to Senators; the entrenchment of various funds into the Constitution. The Senate Oversight Fund did not feature.

I have an advance copy of the agenda for which we shall agree on tomorrow. Under that agenda item of entrenching funds into the Constitution, listed as number one is the Senate Oversight Fund, the National Government-Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) and the National Government Affirmative Action Fund, alongside other outstanding constitutional matters. They include issues to do with electoral justice and related matters and the restructuring of the Independent Electoral Boundaries Commission (IEBC).

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we passed a law towards the end of the Second Session. Many people held different views about it. We know that there is an already established elections committee that is continuing with its work. However, nothing stops us. That matter is strongly under the purview of the MPs, which include Senators here. They are allowed to come back to the House and say, “wait a minute, this is the proposal that we gave for the seven Members of the Selection Panel, but perhaps, we hold a different view on how it needs to be done.” Those powers together with many other issues that have been listed rest with this House.

Therefore, I have to be fair to my colleagues because I know we gazetted the morning sitting to transact this particular business and we still have other business before us. I do not intend to take longer than that. I wish to avail the opportunity, so that colleague Senators can also have a chance to comment on this matter and we conclude it.

I urge all of us in the House – both the Majority and Minority sides – to close ranks and give this team an opportunity to sit down and reflect on issues they consider important to the people of Kenya.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those many remarks, I beg to move and request my counterpart, the Senate Minority Leader, Sen. Madzayo, to second this Motion.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo): Asante, Bw. Spika---

Senate Majority Leader and Sen. Kinyua, kindly let the Senator be heard in silence.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) :

Bw. Spika, kwanza ninaunga

Asante, Bw. Spika---

Bw. Spika, tunajua kuna

Bw. Spika, nia yetu ni kwamba mazungumzo haya yaweze kufaulu. Tuna imani na timu ambazo tumeziweka hapa mbele.

Bibilia inatuambia ya kwamba, pale watu wawili au watatu wako pamoja kuzungumza, ni lazima pawe na amani. Kwa hivyo, sisi tuko na imani na mazungumzo haya na vinara wote kutoka upande huu na ule tuliowachagua. Kuna Viongozi wa Walio Wengi wakiongozwa na mhe. Ichung’wa, na Viongozi wa Walio Wachache wakiongozwa na Mhe. Kalonzo Musyoka. Kwa hivyo, mazungumzo haya yataleta matunda na hatimaye Kenya itaendelea mbele na kupata faida kubwa.

Bw. Spika, naunga mkono Mswada huu ili uweze kufaulu. Asante sana.

Hon. Senators, kindly let us hear the Senate Majority Leader in silence. The Senate Minority Leader (

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 111 (1) and (2) .

I beg to move the following Motion- THAT, debate on the Motion on the establishment of the National Dialogue Committee be limited as follows-

Bw. Spika, nia yetu ni kwamba mazungumzo haya yaweze kufaulu. Tuna imani na timu ambazo tumeziweka hapa mbele.

Bibilia inatuambia ya kwamba, pale watu wawili au watatu wako pamoja kuzungumza, ni lazima pawe na amani. Kwa hivyo, sisi tuko na imani na mazungumzo haya na vinara wote kutoka upande huu na ule tuliowachagua. Kuna Viongozi wa Walio Wengi wakiongozwa na mhe. Ichung’wa, na Viongozi wa Walio Wachache wakiongozwa na Mhe. Kalonzo Musyoka. Kwa hivyo, mazungumzo haya yataleta matunda na hatimaye Kenya itaendelea mbele na kupata faida kubwa.

Bw. Spika, naunga mkono Mswada huu ili uweze kufaulu. Asante sana.

Yes, Sen. (Dr.) Lelegwe Ltumbesi, what is your point of order?

I will, therefore, proceed to call upon hon. Senators to make their contribution to this Motion. However, before I do so, Sen. (Dr.) Lelegwe Ltumbesi, what is your point of order?

Sen. Wamatinga and the Senate Majority Leader, kindly, let us give Sen. Maanzo an opportunity to be heard as he makes his contribution.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Dialogue is needed so that we can fill the gaps. As you have seen from the proposals of the two sides, the Majority and the Minority, there are gaps that were left out in the Constitution of Kenya 2010 and after 13 years, it is time for us to fill these gaps so that we can have a document which serves and unites the people of Kenya, and see the country grow into prosperity.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am aware of the debates that have been taking place in funerals, television shows, and within the public. Some people feel that these bipartisan talks could be against their region, tribe or against themselves. On the contrary, this is for the benefit of the country. It is not for the benefit of a religion or a tribe.

We want to build a strong Kenya for all Kenyans, not for one or two individuals. I like the way the Majority Side in the National Assembly has framed the issues. The matter went through the National Assembly. It is now before the Senate.

Once we prepare this, we have to avoid the pitfalls like what we went through before, when we tried to amend the Constitution, through the Executive, and not through a popular initiative. We, eventually, must find a way of making this a popular initiative.

As the Senate, we represent all 47 counties of the Republic, therefore, we should avoid what happened to the Building Bridges Initiative (BBI) . Obviously, this is going the BBI way again. However, we must make sure it is a people-driven change, not an Executive or elected leaders-only-driven change.

Eventuality it must go back to the people for some of the issues to be framed. Some can be amended by Parliament and others can only come through a referendum.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir and I support.

Sen. Orwoba, please, proceed.

The Constitution expects that as soon as an election is conducted, whoever takes the mantle leads the country to prosperity, peace, and unity. It anticipates a situation where we will work together as a nation for the success of the people of Kenya who elect us and who are sovereign. The new Constitution anticipates the elected leaders to be servants of the people.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I therefore rise to support this initiative so that there may be dialogue. We agreed that after the Constitution of Kenya 2010---

So, the only thing that I would like to point out so that we are also not lying to Kenyans, is that we have legal frameworks to have these national dialogues. We have the National Cohesion and Integration Commission (NCIC). In the Senate and the National Assembly, we have a committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity.

So, as much as I support this Motion, I have to say that we are being unfair to the President because the President has set out to put out austerity measures to ensure that we are not spending money that should not be spent yet we are here creating another entity when we could have used the NCIC. We could have used our joint committee between the National Assembly and the Senate to actually have the framework and the discussion. Those platforms have equal opportunities that we could have made effective.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as legislators, as much as I support this Motion, we are being unfair to the taxpayers because I am sure this Committee is going to draw some sort of allowance. I am sure we are going to incur expenses on the same, and it is not fair to tell the taxpayers that we are going to pay the Commission and the committees, and now we are coming together to have a National Dialogue Committee, on top of all the legal frameworks that we have. However, I agree we need a national dialogue, therefore, I support this Motion.

Sen. Oketch Gicheru, please, proceed.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. At the very least, this National Dialogue Committee holds the promise of creating a---

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it seems like Sen. Kinyua---

Your three minutes are almost up. Please, proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will start now. I would like to say that at the very least, this particular National Dialogue Committee gives this country a promise of creating a very significant momentum with the aim of inclusively transforming the socio-political and economic conflict that has engulfed this country since post-election, particularly at the beginning of this year.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it would therefore be extremely remiss of me to start commenting on this particular Motion without sincerely thanking His Excellency President Ruto, together with the former Rt. Hon. Prime Minister Raila Odinga, for the boldness they have exemplified to allow this country to have a dialogue and give dialogue a chance.

Indeed, Mr. Speaker, Sir, dialogue in the context of the circumstances we found ourselves in since the beginning of the year is the only useful way that we can ensure that we not only achieve the idea of sustainable peace in this country but also make sure that, as a country, we can mainstream some of the economic issues that we have been facing in the past few months.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it seems like Sen. Kinyua---

Just proceed to make your contribution.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for this chance to make my very brief comments on this Motion on the establishment of the National Dialogue Committee.

On the onset, you know, dialogue is a conversation between two or more people. That is according to a certain encyclopedia.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support this Motion, but one thing that is really giving us problems is how we came to the formulation of this Committee. You know before this group was composed, so many Kenyans are now dead. I do not know whether this Committee or dialogue will bring back Kenyans who are already dead. This is because the process the Minority Coalition used was to go to the streets to demonstrate and do very funny things so that they could push the President to accept this dialogue.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as we debate this Motion, I am at a great loss because Kenyans have lost property and lives. However, I hope this will be the first and the last one.

I was at pains to hear my friend and colleague from Migori say that the elections were contentious. They were not contentious. If there was any contention, it was taken to

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will start now. I would like to say that at the very least, this particular National Dialogue Committee gives this country a promise of creating a very significant momentum with the aim of inclusively transforming the socio-political and economic conflict that has engulfed this country since post-election, particularly at the beginning of this year.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it would therefore be extremely remiss of me to start commenting on this particular Motion without sincerely thanking His Excellency President Ruto, together with the former Rt. Hon. Prime Minister Raila Odinga, for the boldness they have exemplified to allow this country to have a dialogue and give dialogue a chance.

Indeed, Mr. Speaker, Sir, dialogue in the context of the circumstances we found ourselves in since the beginning of the year is the only useful way that we can ensure that we not only achieve the idea of sustainable peace in this country but also make sure that, as a country, we can mainstream some of the economic issues that we have been facing in the past few months.

Proceed, Sen. Wambua.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you for this opportunity. I also join my colleagues in fully supporting the Constitution of the National Dialogue Team. I am happy that the National Dialogue team is constituted along the lines of national values and principles of governance.

I pray that at the end of their term, this team is going to come up with the resolutions that bind us together as a nation. People should not be afraid of talking. In fact, the minute you stop talking, then bad things begin to happen.

There is nothing to fear about dialogue. When there are disputes, whether those disputes arise from a contested election or they arise from issues of governance or cost of living, leaders have a duty of care to talk and find solutions to problems facing the people they lead.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I personally take this initiative very seriously. As my neighbour, the Senator of Meru has said, he left his county very early in the morning to participate in this. I should be somewhere in Nakuru, taking my son back to school. However, I am here because this is important for this country and for national healing.

As I conclude, this team that is meeting to have this dialogue is building on a foundation that was laid by the first bipartisan team that yours truly was a member of. In this one, I am very happy that we have laid a firm foundation on which we will heal this country and move forward together as a nation.

I fully support.

Proceed, Sen. Murango.

Proceed, Sen. Wambua.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you for this opportunity. I also join my colleagues in fully supporting the Constitution of the National Dialogue Team. I am happy that the National Dialogue team is constituted along the lines of national values and principles of governance.

I pray that at the end of their term, this team is going to come up with the resolutions that bind us together as a nation. People should not be afraid of talking. In fact, the minute you stop talking, then bad things begin to happen.

There is nothing to fear about dialogue. When there are disputes, whether those disputes arise from a contested election or they arise from issues of governance or cost of living, leaders have a duty of care to talk and find solutions to problems facing the people they lead.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I personally take this initiative very seriously. As my neighbour, the Senator of Meru has said, he left his county very early in the morning to participate in this. I should be somewhere in Nakuru, taking my son back to school. However, I am here because this is important for this country and for national healing.

As I conclude, this team that is meeting to have this dialogue is building on a foundation that was laid by the first bipartisan team that yours truly was a member of. In this one, I am very happy that we have laid a firm foundation on which we will heal this country and move forward together as a nation.

I fully support.

Proceed, Sen. Murango.

Asante sana, Mstahiki Spika, kwa kunipa fursa hii niweze kuchangia. Kwanza naunga mkono Hoja hii ambayo iliwasilishwa na Kiongozi wa Walio Wengi ya kwamba wale walioteuliwa waweze kuketi na kutafuta jawamu katika mazungumzo. Hata hivyo, tusiwe watu wa kutafuta vita ndipo tuanze kutafuta amani.

washachaguwa kwamba wanataka kuwa katika gereza la mazungumzo, kusiwe na utata wowote pale wanapozungumza.

Kama alivyosema Seneta wa Meru, iwe ni jambo la mwisho kwa sababu hakuna maana ya uchaguzi ikiwa hakuna mshindi. Vile vile, ni kama tukae sote tuteuliwe tuje hapa Seneti. Tukiendelea hivyo, hata mimi pia niliowashinda kule Kirinyaga watasema kuwe na mazungumzo. Wale walioshindwa ugavana watasema pia kuwe na mazungumzo.

Kwa hivyo, iwe ni mara ya mwisho kwamba tunafanya hili. Tukilifanya tumalize, kuwe na amani. Pia wanaongoza wasije kwa misingi na misimamo mikali. Waje na misimamo na kauli zitakazotolewa kwa ajili ya wananchi wa Kenya wala sio kwa ajili ya uongozi.

Asante sana, Mstahiki Spika.

Proceed, Sen. Dullo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sorry, I thought it was my turn.

there are individuals who know that they can twist the process to get into government through the back door.

However, our Head of Government, President (Dr.) Ruto supports this dialogue. Further, one of the agenda for Kenya Kwanza in this dialogue is creating an official opposition office. I fully support it because we appreciate that Hon. Raila Odinga, the current person in question we are discussing today got a considerable number of votes. The issue of winner takes it all has been a thorn in the flesh in the Kenyan elections.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in that matter, I support---

What is your point of order?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, protect me from the Senate Minority Leader.

Take your seat, Sen. Nyamu. Senate Minority Leader, what is your point of order?

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) : Mheshimiwa Spika, ule mjadala uko hapa ni wa muhimu sana na wa kitaifa. Lakini, ni sawa yale matamshi aliyoongea dadangu, Sen. Nyamu, ya kwamba hapa tunaongea juu ya Baba Raila Amolo Odinga? Ningetaka kujua kutoka kwake.

Kama si sawa, anaweza kuondoa maneno hayo na akaomba msamaha?

there are individuals who know that they can twist the process to get into government through the back door.

However, our Head of Government, President (Dr.) Ruto supports this dialogue. Further, one of the agenda for Kenya Kwanza in this dialogue is creating an official opposition office. I fully support it because we appreciate that Hon. Raila Odinga, the current person in question we are discussing today got a considerable number of votes. The issue of winner takes it all has been a thorn in the flesh in the Kenyan elections.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in that matter, I support---

What is your point of order?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, protect me from the Senate Minority Leader.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Orwoba. Sen. (Dr.) Oburu, take your seat.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Just like Sen. Nyamu has been brought back to the topic of discussion, Sen. (Dr.) Oburu should be brought back to the topic of discussion as well. Today, we are talking about the national dialogue but he should not continue with that line of how some were born yesterday.

We know that he is the youth representative but we are not talking about that or who is older than who. Let him stick to the National Dialogue Committee conversation.

Sen. (Dr.) Oburu, as you ooze wisdom, kindly do not belittle the younger ones and kindly proceed to make your comment.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am saying that there were people who opposed it because there were some few things that needed to be corrected and this national dialogue is giving them an opportunity to correct what they did not want in this Constitution.

I do not see how that is irrelevant because Sen. Orwoba opposed this dialogue. She said that she supported it but everything she said showed she was opposing it. When you want to oppose, just oppose and when you want to support, just support!

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Orwoba. Sen. (Dr.) Oburu, take your seat.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Proceed, Sen. Mungatana.

Sen. Mungatana.

around the election of the President of the United States of America (USA) at that time brought about a civil war that lasted for four years and over 600,000 people died.

We are happy that in Kenya, it has not gone that way. People decided to speak before it deteriorated. Matters elections are very critical for the stability of the nation and we need to handle them with care. The critical thing I quote here is what President Lincoln said. He said that we must agree that the popular vote is not an absurdity. We must also settle the question that a minority that loses an election cannot at will decide to break a government that is formed by the Majority.

Let us discuss but let the principle prevail. If you lose an election, please go home. You have no right to break a Government because you lost an election. What Sen. Dullo has said is what happened many years ago and people are trying to reinvent it. Do not bring chaos because you lost an election. This whole dialogue is about that election. It has happened in the USA and it is being repeated word for word except we have not gone to civil war. We are asking people to have good manners. When you lose an election, do not bring problems to the country, go home.

Sen. Githuku, please proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Proceed, Sen. Mungatana.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, those of us who are students of history will remember that the 1861 elections in America were very controversial.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Abraham Lincoln was elected President with mainly the support of the North. The Southern States felt that they lost and they felt segregated. Before the President was sworn in, they went to hold a meeting in Montgomery, Alabama where they swore in a new President. 11 States formed the confederacy. That controversy

around the election of the President of the United States of America (USA) at that time brought about a civil war that lasted for four years and over 600,000 people died.

We are happy that in Kenya, it has not gone that way. People decided to speak before it deteriorated. Matters elections are very critical for the stability of the nation and we need to handle them with care. The critical thing I quote here is what President Lincoln said. He said that we must agree that the popular vote is not an absurdity. We must also settle the question that a minority that loses an election cannot at will decide to break a government that is formed by the Majority.

Let us discuss but let the principle prevail. If you lose an election, please go home. You have no right to break a Government because you lost an election. What Sen. Dullo has said is what happened many years ago and people are trying to reinvent it. Do not bring chaos because you lost an election. This whole dialogue is about that election. It has happened in the USA and it is being repeated word for word except we have not gone to civil war. We are asking people to have good manners. When you lose an election, do not bring problems to the country, go home.

Sen. Githuku, please proceed.

Asante, Bw. Spika. Ninaunganika na wenzangu kuunga mkono Hoja hii ambayo imewasilishwa na Kinara wa Walio Wengi katika Bunge hili la Seneti.

Sisi tunaposoma Amosi 3:3 inasema wawili wasipokubaliana, hawawezi kutembea pamoja.

Bw. Spika, ninaunga mkono Hoja hii ya kuwa na mazungumzo ya kitaifa ambayo italeta uwiano na kukomeza shida na matatizo yaliyoshuhudiwa katika Jamhuri yetu ya Kenya kwa muda wa siku ambazo kupita tangu tulipokuwa na uchaguzi wa mwaka 2022.

Tumeshuhudia vurugu, umwagikaji wa damu na uharibifu wa mali katika Jamhuri yetu ya Kenya. Ninalaani jambo ambalo kama kiongozi kwa sababu limesababisha hasara kubwa katika Jamhuri yetu ya Kenya tukikumba kwamba tulifanya campaign na tukapatia Wakenya ahadi ambazo tutaweza kutimiza. Ukiwa na mambo ya vurugu; umwagikaji wa damu na uharibifu wa mali, unakuta kwamba kiongozi aliyechaguliwa hawezi kuongoza nchi kwa njia inayostahili.

Bw. Spika, naunga jambo hili mkono kama ndilo jambo litakaloleta uwiano na amani katika Jamhuri yetu ya Kenya ili Wakenya waweze kufanyiwa kazi. Ninatoka Kaunti ya Lamu ambayo saa hii, imekumbwa na shida na matatizo mengi ya kiusalama. Hili ni jambo ambalo ningependa Serikali iliangalie kwa kina. Kwa nini wananchi wangu wa Kaunti ya Lamu wanauliwa na kuchomewa nyumba kiholela na jamii fulani imekuwa targeted na watu ambao hawajulikani? Hilo ni jambo ambalo linaleta huzuni katika nchi yetu ya Kenya na Kaunti yangu ya Lamu.

Ningependa Serikali ione kwamba tunapoingia katika mambo ya mazungumzo ya kutafuta amani katika Jamhuri yetu ya Kenya---

Tuliona jana katika vyombo vya habari akitishia kupeleka watu mbinguni. Yeye sio Yesu wala mtume. Sisi sote ni wananchi na binadamu wa Kenya. Iwapo kuna mambo yoyote ambayo yanatakiwa kuzungumzwa, yazungumzwe kwa njia ya mijadala

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support this Motion.

Bw. Spika, umewaambia Maseneta wenzangu wajadili mambo ambayo yanahusu Hoja ya siku ya leo. Ni haki kudai kuwa kiongozi amesema kuwa atawapeleka watu mbinguni. Hakuna mtu anayeijua njia ya mbiguni. Hauwezi ukapeleka mtu mbinguni. Bibilia inasema ya kwamba mtu anayeijua njia hiyo ni Baba wa Mbinguni peke yake. Hata yesu haijui.

You have made your point, Sen. Kinyua. Sen. Faki, kindly confine yourself---

Bw. Spika, mimi sijatoka nje ya Hoja. Ni jambo ambalo lilikuwa la adhiri na kila mtu aliona.

Tuliona jana katika vyombo vya habari akitishia kupeleka watu mbinguni. Yeye sio Yesu wala mtume. Sisi sote ni wananchi na binadamu wa Kenya. Iwapo kuna mambo yoyote ambayo yanatakiwa kuzungumzwa, yazungumzwe kwa njia ya mijadala

Kindly desist from taking that line of argument.

Bw. Spika, niko ndani ya Hoja na nitaendelea kubaki hapo. Mwisho, ninasema ya kuwa hakuna soko lisilo na wendawazimu. Majadiliano yataendelea. Wale ambao wanasema ya kwamba hakuna, mwisho wataona ya kwamba yamekuwa na kikomo chake. Waswahili husema, “Haiwi, haiwi, mwisho huwa.”

Pia walisema wakati mwingine, “Amani haiji ila kwa ncha ya upanga. Kwa hivyo, ninaunga mkono Hoja hii. Tuko tayari kufanya lolote ambalo linatakikana kama viongozi katika Bunge hili kuhakikisha ya kwamba---

Okay. I did not know that some of us fear going to heaven.

Bw. Spika, mimi sijatoka nje ya Hoja. Ni jambo ambalo lilikuwa la adhiri na kila mtu aliona.

Bw. Spika ndio ninasema ya kwamba mimi niko ndani ya Hoja ya leo---

Kindly desist from taking that line of argument.

Bw. Spika, niko ndani ya Hoja na nitaendelea kubaki hapo. Mwisho, ninasema ya kuwa hakuna soko lisilo na wendawazimu. Majadiliano yataendelea. Wale ambao wanasema ya kwamba hakuna, mwisho wataona ya kwamba yamekuwa na kikomo chake. Waswahili husema, “Haiwi, haiwi, mwisho huwa.”

Pia walisema wakati mwingine, “Amani haiji ila kwa ncha ya upanga. Kwa hivyo, ninaunga mkono Hoja hii. Tuko tayari kufanya lolote ambalo linatakikana kama viongozi katika Bunge hili kuhakikisha ya kwamba---

Okay. I did not know that some of us fear going to heaven.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you should take judicial notice of the fact that there are many people who are afraid of facing their maker because of the things they have been doing down here.

Sen. Mwaruma, just confine yourself to the Motion before us.

Asante, Bw. Spika, kwa huo mwelekeo. Lakini, katika maswala ambayo yako katika meza, kutoka kwa upande wa Azimio, moja ilikuwa ni kufanya uhasibu ama audit ya server. Kwa hivyo, nikitaja server ni kwa sababu swala moja ambalo liko katika majadiliano litakuwa ni kufungua server.

Mambo ya maandamano ni haki yetu kama Wakenya katika Ibara ya 37. Ninaona maandamano yakitokea hata katika Kaunti ya Uasin Gishu kwa sababu watu wanataka pesa zao ambazo walilipa kwenda ngámbo. Lazima hiyo server ifunguliwe tujue ni nini ambacho kilitokea.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support this Motion. Sen. (Dr.) Oburu has stated that we are supporting this Motion while opposing it. This is further from the truth. We are in support of this Motion. However, we are giving our reservations. We have our own reasons for this approach.

I support this Motion. The Senate Leaders of Majority and Minority has stated that despite the support to this Motion, it is fair to allow people to speak. There are certain questions we are addressing that cannot be handled by the 10-member dialogue committee.

It is my opinion that the best national dialogue happened on 9th August, 2022 where over 50 million Kenyans spoke to this issue and voted for His Excellency President William Ruto. There is nothing much that a 10-member committee can do on this resolute support by Kenyans. The final and apex of the elections dispute was at the Supreme Court of Kenya. There is nothing much that Hon. Kimani Ichung’wa and Hon.

Bw. Spika, ninasikia Sen. Mwaruma akisema kama tutapata nafasi ya kufungua server. Ninafikiri Hoja mbele yetu siyo kuhusu kufunguliwa kwa server. Kwa maana wenye server walikuwa watu wa Azimio na ndio wenye kifunguo. Waende watafute mahali walikuwa wameacha kifunguo hicho ili wafungue server yao.

Sen. Mwaruma, just confine yourself to the Motion before us.

Asante, Bw. Spika, kwa huo mwelekeo. Lakini, katika maswala ambayo yako katika meza, kutoka kwa upande wa Azimio, moja ilikuwa ni kufanya uhasibu ama audit ya server. Kwa hivyo, nikitaja server ni kwa sababu swala moja ambalo liko katika majadiliano litakuwa ni kufungua server.

Mambo ya maandamano ni haki yetu kama Wakenya katika Ibara ya 37. Ninaona maandamano yakitokea hata katika Kaunti ya Uasin Gishu kwa sababu watu wanataka pesa zao ambazo walilipa kwenda ngámbo. Lazima hiyo server ifunguliwe tujue ni nini ambacho kilitokea.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support this Motion. Sen. (Dr.) Oburu has stated that we are supporting this Motion while opposing it. This is further from the truth. We are in support of this Motion. However, we are giving our reservations. We have our own reasons for this approach.

I support this Motion. The Senate Leaders of Majority and Minority has stated that despite the support to this Motion, it is fair to allow people to speak. There are certain questions we are addressing that cannot be handled by the 10-member dialogue committee.

It is my opinion that the best national dialogue happened on 9th August, 2022 where over 50 million Kenyans spoke to this issue and voted for His Excellency President William Ruto. There is nothing much that a 10-member committee can do on this resolute support by Kenyans. The final and apex of the elections dispute was at the Supreme Court of Kenya. There is nothing much that Hon. Kimani Ichung’wa and Hon.

Kalonzo Musyoka can do to that fact. His Excellency President William Ruto will be our President. There is nothing that will change; whether you audit the server or not. This matter was rested on 9th August, 2022.

Secondly, people were on the streets demonstrating. This resulted to loss of life, destruction of private and public businesses. How will a national dialogue address these issues and reach out to the people who lost their beloved ones, sons, property and other losses to the country in general.

This behaviour of arm-twisting Government will persist. Sen. (Dr.) Oburu has stated that this is the first dialogue, but it is not. The only constant is the players. Every time there is an election and one person does not agree he lost it, he forces dialogue. It happened in 2008. He says that we are young. However, in 2008, we were alive and saw the national dialogue similar to which is also happening now. If we do not put an end to this circus that in every election, we have national dialogue so that we accommodate some people and their issues, then we shall have gotten it wrong.

Hon. Senators, kindly let us allow, Sen. Chute to make his contribution in silence.

Asante sana, Bw. Spika. Wakenya zaidi ya milioni 50 wamechagua wawakilishi kwenye Bunge za Kaunti, Bunge la Kitaifa na Seneti. Baada ya kupiga kura, upinzani na Serikali wanazozana. Wawakilishi kutoka Kenya Kwanza wanaenda kwa mazishi, arusi na mahali penye watu kuongea siasa ambayo haiwezi saidia nchi hii. Wanachama wa Azimio-One Kenya wanasema server ifunguliwe na kuwa chakula kina bei ghali ila walichangia chakula kuwa na bei ya juu.

Nashukuru sana kuwa watu waliochaguliwa kwenye hii Kamati ni waheshimiwa. Mwenyezi Mungu amewapa nafasi ya kuongoza watu. Tuwache kuongea kwa mazishi na arusi. Kuna Wabunge vijana kwenye Seneti na Bunge la Taifa, ambao hutaja jina la Rais Mstaafu Uhuru Kenyatta, wakitembea, wakilala na wakiamka. Pia hili linafanywa na Wabunge kutoka upande wa upinzani ambao huongea kuhusu Mhe. Rais William Ruto. Yeye apewe nafasi ya kujenga nchi hii.

Jambo la mwisho, majadiliano---

Order, Hon. Members! Let Sen. Chute be heard in silence.

Bw. Naibu Spika, namshukuru Rais wetu na Baba Raila Odinga kwa kuwezesha mkutano huu. Kenya ni nchi iliyo na watu zaidi ya milioni 50 ambao tunaongoza. Wale wanaoongoza wamechaguliwa kutoka Kaunti kama wawakililishi wa wadi.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are not doing justice to this Motion. The dialogue that we are supposed to have---

Under what Standing Order are you on?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Standing Order on misleading the public and the House. It is Standing Order No.105.

Sen. Oketch Gicheru, you are not the Chair.

Point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Orwoba?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are not doing justice to this Motion. The dialogue that we are supposed to have---

Under what Standing Order are you on?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Standing Order on misleading the public and the House. It is Standing Order No.105.

Sen. Oketch Gicheru, you are not the Chair.

Sen. Oketch Gicheru, take your seat. Just yield, please.

In the same breath, as you read the Standing Orders, you can only stand on a point of order to call to order a Senator who is contributing. As we speak, Sen. Beth Syengo is on her feet. Unless your point of order is directed to her, you are out of order,

Kindly proceed to conclude your contribution.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Finally, whenever there is any dispute or disagreement over any issue of national importance, it is important that the police are restrained. We cannot allow the police to continue butchering citizens of this country, then the leadership of this country stands to praise---

Asante, Bw. Spika, kwa kunipa fursa hii. Laiti tungelifuata filosofia ya Nyayo ambayo inasema amani, upendo na umoja. Umoja ni nguvu, utengano ni udhaifu. Mazungumzo ni mazuri kwa maana sote tunaishi katika nchi yetu ya Kenya.

Mazungumzo haya yalianzishwa na Maseneta werendi sana. Unakumbuka Seneta Wambua kutoka Kitui na Seneta Wakili ambao walianzisha haya mazungumzo. Msingi waliyoweka ni msingi ungetumiwa maana waliangazia shida tunazopitia katika Seneti hii. Hayo mazungumzo yangeendeleza maneno haya. Kitabu kitakatifu kinasema watu

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Oketch Gicheru, what is your point of order?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I take this House very seriously and I rise under Standing Order No.121 which says -

“A Senator is disorderly if the Senator knowingly raises a false point of order.” Sen. Orwoba rose in this House---

Sen. Oketch Gicheru, take your seat. Just yield, please.

In the same breath, as you read the Standing Orders, you can only stand on a point of order to call to order a Senator who is contributing. As we speak, Sen. Beth Syengo is on her feet. Unless your point of order is directed to her, you are out of order,

Kindly proceed to conclude your contribution.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Finally, whenever there is any dispute or disagreement over any issue of national importance, it is important that the police are restrained. We cannot allow the police to continue butchering citizens of this country, then the leadership of this country stands to praise---

Asante, Bw. Spika, kwa kunipa fursa hii. Laiti tungelifuata filosofia ya Nyayo ambayo inasema amani, upendo na umoja. Umoja ni nguvu, utengano ni udhaifu. Mazungumzo ni mazuri kwa maana sote tunaishi katika nchi yetu ya Kenya.

Mazungumzo haya yalianzishwa na Maseneta werendi sana. Unakumbuka Seneta Wambua kutoka Kitui na Seneta Wakili ambao walianzisha haya mazungumzo. Msingi waliyoweka ni msingi ungetumiwa maana waliangazia shida tunazopitia katika Seneti hii. Hayo mazungumzo yangeendeleza maneno haya. Kitabu kitakatifu kinasema watu

wakitembea wakiwa wengi wanaweza kuenda mbali, lakini mtu akitembea pekee yake, ataenda haraka lakini atasulubiwa akiwa pekee yake.

Ni vizuri kukiwa na haya mazungumzo ili watu waweze kuzungumza. Mimi ni mfugaji. Najua kwamba ng’ombe akishambuliwa na simba, ni vizuri kufuata simba badala ya kupambana na nzi wanaofyonza damu ya yule ng’ombe aliyevamiwa. Sisi tunajua simba ni yupi, aliyeleta shida hizi. Juzi nimemskia akileta vitisho kuwa haya mazungumzo yakivurugwa, basi watu watarudi kuandamana.

Sisi tunakashifu haya mambo. Watu wanakuja kwa mazungumzo, tuna Mhe. Kalonzo Musyoka, Mhe. Ichungwa, Kiongozi wa Walio Wengi katika Seneti hii, tunayemuenzi na tunajua atafanya mambo ya busara katika haya mazungumzo. Lakini ikiwa baada ya sisi kusema tumekubaliana watu wawe na mazungumzo, kwa nini vitisho vinaanza kuwa watu wataenda maandamano. Kila mtu anajua shida zilizoko nchini na ni nani anayezileta. Sisi tulikubaliana na watu na wakasonga mbele. Uchaguzi ukafanywa na Mhe. Raisi, akatangazwa.

Sasa kuna vijisababu na visingizio kwamba haya mazungumzo yanaelekea kuanguka. Mhe. Mungatana na Mhe. Dullo wamegonga ndipo. Hakuna mahali imesemekana ya kwamba mshindi akishinda anapaswa kukaa chini aongee na walioshindwa.

Sen. Shakila Abdalla, proceed.

Asante, Bw. Spika, kwa kunipa fursa hii kuchangia huu Hoja. Naunga mkono Hoja hii na nawapongeza viongozi kwa kukubaliana kukaa chini kuleta amani ili nchi ipone.

Mazungumzo ni muhimu sana lakini yanaweza kuharibiwa na wale ambao wako nje wanaochochea. Tunaomba, hususan sisi viongozi, tuache uchochezi. Tuache Kamati iliyochaguliwa ifanye kazi, ilete ripoti yao ili tuijadili na nchi ipone. Tukianza uchochezi kabla hata mazungumzo kuanza, sioni kama tutafika kokote na mazungumzo haya.

Tumeongea sana juu ya vitu kuharibiwa, watu kuuliwa. Ukweli ni kwamba wanaoenda maandamano hawana silaha. Polisi ndio wako na silaha. Wale polisi ambao walisababisha vifo wachukuliwe hatua na waliyouliwa wawe compensated. Wafidiye familia zilizopoteza wapendwa wao.

Tunaomba haya mazungumzo yalete natija kwa nchi. Isiwe ni yale mazungumzo ambayo yataturudisha kwa ile Building Bridges Initiative (BBI) iliyofanyika last time. Tunaona mazungumzo haya yakienda kuwa BBI, sioni kama kutakuw na natija yeyote. Tunaomba yawe mazungumzo ambayo yataleta natija, kuponya nchi na kuleta umoja ili nchi iweze kuendelea mbele.

Asante, Bw. Spika.

Sen. Munyi Mundigi, proceed.

Asante, Bw. Spika, kwa kunipa nafasi hii ili kuchangia juu ya mazungumzo yatakayoendelea na watu waliochaguliwa kutoka kwa upande wa walio wengi na upande wa walio wachache.

Yangu ni machache. Itakuwa aibu sana kuwa baada ya miaka tano ya uchaguzi, walio wachache wakishindwa, waende kurusha mawe, kuuwa watu, kufanya mambo mabaya na kila wakati wanakuja kusema tusemezane.

Ingawa Biblia inasema watu wawili hawezi kutembea pamoja bila kuelewana, naunga mkono. Hata hivyo, 2027 tutaenda kwa uchaguzi. Nataka mjiandae tukutane pale. Haya mazungumzo yatakuwa ya mara ya mwisho. Pia mnakumbuka katika Biblia, yesu alikuwa anatembea na Judas na hakuridhika mpaka dakika ya mwisho. Mkifikiria mtakuwa kila wakati mnajifanya kama Judas, 2027 tutawatimua mbio na hamtarudia hivo mpaka tuwateme.

Jambo la pili, mnasema mambo ya kufungua server. Pia mmeongea kuhusu mambo ya kuua. Mengi mliyoyasema ni nyinyi mmeharibu. Hata mngeulizwa, mvua haingenyesha. Niko na huzuni sana na nyinyi. Mrudi tusemezane, tusikie pamoja, Biblia iwe juu na tutembee safari moja kwa hiki kipindi cha miaka mitano.

Asante, Bw. Spika, naunga mkono, lakini sio ile ya Judas na Yesu.

Hon. Senators, the one hour is long spent. I will, therefore, call upon the Mover to reply.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg for your attention. I seek your indulgence because in replying, I have 15 minutes to do so, will I be in order to donate just three minutes to the three Senators?

Proceed, Sen. (Prof.) Kamar.

Proceed, Sen. Joe Nyutu.

Proceed, Sen. Mandago.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the Motion of the formation of a National Dialogue Committee and adoption of the names that have been given.

However, I have a rider on the discussions that are going to happen. In this country, one of the things we must acknowledge and accept is that once elections have been done and there is a dispute; and the Supreme Court pronounces itself on the matter, then that matter should be considered rested.

One of the most important things this Committee should not do is to accept and set a precedence that when you lose elections, you can actually use violence to get back to discussions and be accommodated within Government. I do not think that is what our Constitution intended. We need to be progressive. Once you lose an election, accept the results. You can challenge or propose amendments or change of policies that would probably address some of the things that are required, without necessarily causing violence in the country.

I also urge those who are going to sit in that discussion, that the centre of discussion should things that affect Kenyans. We, in Kenyan Kwanza had already proposed – I wish the Azimio side would have just graciously accepted our proposal –

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I was a bit worried when you called the Mover to reply. In the morning, I set off from Nyeri County very early to come and contribute to this debate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, all of us who are sitting in this House were elected. We know it is important to have a conversation. I wish to challenge us that now that we have agreed to embrace dialogue, moving forward, we wish to see the Minority side sitting, listening and fronting questions when Cabinet Secretaries come here.

It is quite unfortunate. I urge the team that has been chosen to lead this dialogue in the last paragraph of their report, to give us a formula that will ensure Kenyans will no longer die in the streets because somebody has lost an election. It is very deceptive. We know that the only genuine conversation is held every five years as envisioned by our Constitution.

It is unfair to Kenyans and the taxpayers in a country that is really struggling to make an economic recovery. Again, we have subjected them to paying additional cost for making 10 people to sit down.

I saw another list that had Sen. Wambua, who is a good debater and a committed Christian. That was better than having somebody like “Ms. Eunice Wamalwa” who you know does not even qualify.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am actually disappointed because you are being very selective when giving a chance for Members to talk. I am really disappointed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, and the Senate Majority Leader for giving me the three minutes. I join my colleagues in supporting the formation of the dialogue team.

This is not the first time this has happened in this country. I think we are a country that is created for dialogue. There was the Inter-Parties Parliamentary Group (IPPG) during the Moi days. After the 2007 Elections where you and I were elected, there was a session that had to bring the country together.

We know very well that after the years of one-party system, Kenyans have not become a majority win. It is very important that we recognise that so that we know that we are a country with diversity. Therefore, it is very important that we embrace dialogue always.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support this knowing also that we have a Committee that should be proactive always; the Committee on National Cohesion, Equal Opportunity and Regional Integration. The National Assembly has a similar Committee. It is not right that when we perform our duties as an oversight body, that we do not converge to discuss these issues.

I think the reason we are now seeking another dialogue session, which is in and outside Parliament, is partly because our Committees are not being proactive. I challenge the Committees that they must be proactive. When an issue arises, they should converge and even allow public participation on an issue on a continuous basis.

Personally, I am happy that Parliament has been involved in this. For this reason, I would like to encourage you, Mr. Speaker, and the other Speaker that we become an oversight term even of the current dialogue. This is so that we do not lose track. Whenever we find the Committee is trying to lose track, we must discuss in this House and try to pull them together so that we complete in a better way.

I support.

Proceed, Sen. Mandago.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the Motion of the formation of a National Dialogue Committee and adoption of the names that have been given.

However, I have a rider on the discussions that are going to happen. In this country, one of the things we must acknowledge and accept is that once elections have been done and there is a dispute; and the Supreme Court pronounces itself on the matter, then that matter should be considered rested.

One of the most important things this Committee should not do is to accept and set a precedence that when you lose elections, you can actually use violence to get back to discussions and be accommodated within Government. I do not think that is what our Constitution intended. We need to be progressive. Once you lose an election, accept the results. You can challenge or propose amendments or change of policies that would probably address some of the things that are required, without necessarily causing violence in the country.

I also urge those who are going to sit in that discussion, that the centre of discussion should things that affect Kenyans. We, in Kenyan Kwanza had already proposed – I wish the Azimio side would have just graciously accepted our proposal –

that we create an official Opposition Leader position within Parliament. That was within our plan as Kenya Kwanza.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, after all these suffering, violence and loss of property and lives, finally the chicken has come home to roost. Azimio has now accepted that we need to create the position of official Opposition, which we proposed. We thought it is extremely important for those in the Opposition to also be heard in Parliament.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is extremely important that those in the opposition can also be heard in Parliament. As we conclude the dialogue, I urge those going to discuss, that the compensation of property destroyed must also be discussed in the agenda. I propose to those who are going to sit there that the funds should be sourced from political parties that were involved in those losses.

I support.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am actually disappointed because you are being very selective when giving a chance for Members to talk. I am really disappointed.

Sen. Abass there is a dashboard.

This country has a rule of law. The Constitution has allowed elections to take place. In every election cycle, we have problems. However, this should not happen again. The winner should accommodate all and the loser should accept the loss.

I thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity. I rise to support the Motion that has been moved by the Senate Majority Leader and seconded by the Senate Minority Leader. When you speak about dialogue, we hear about peace, reconciliation, peace-making and conflict resolution. Far from the fact that we have got existing conflict, we are all aware that this country is ruled by law. It is a democratic State that people went for election in 2022 and a Government was put in place.

However, when we listen to the Motion that has been placed before us and the framework being set by the team that is expected to conduct the dialogue; we expect that this committee will confine itself to the issues, which are within its mandate.

I support the Motion in terms of institutionalizing the committee that shall speak to the issues raised by Kenyans. Remember, we previously had a committee that sat for a couple of weeks, leading to the current committee.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, listening to the Senate Majority Leader, the issues that will be a subject of discussion for this committee are limited to developing reforms, facilitating dialogue and bridging differences between these two political formations. This will ultimately allow the people of Kenya and the Government of the day to execute the mandate that was granted by the people in the election that was conducted in 2022.

I support this Motion with those reservations.

Hon. Senators, I have 15 more Senators who wish to contribute. We have long surpassed the one-hour mark. The Mover who was supposed to reply donated his reply time to the Senators who I have just allowed to make contribution. I will, therefore, allow the Mover to reply under one minute, because that is what is left of his time.

Sen. Cherarkey have a seat please.

Sen. Abass, it is the duty of the Speaker to pick who to speak and that cannot be questioned.

Proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those very many remarks, I beg to reply. I thank you.

This country has a rule of law. The Constitution has allowed elections to take place. In every election cycle, we have problems. However, this should not happen again. The winner should accommodate all and the loser should accept the loss.

I thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity. I rise to support the Motion that has been moved by the Senate Majority Leader and seconded by the Senate Minority Leader. When you speak about dialogue, we hear about peace, reconciliation, peace-making and conflict resolution. Far from the fact that we have got existing conflict, we are all aware that this country is ruled by law. It is a democratic State that people went for election in 2022 and a Government was put in place.

However, when we listen to the Motion that has been placed before us and the framework being set by the team that is expected to conduct the dialogue; we expect that this committee will confine itself to the issues, which are within its mandate.

I support the Motion in terms of institutionalizing the committee that shall speak to the issues raised by Kenyans. Remember, we previously had a committee that sat for a couple of weeks, leading to the current committee.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, listening to the Senate Majority Leader, the issues that will be a subject of discussion for this committee are limited to developing reforms, facilitating dialogue and bridging differences between these two political formations. This will ultimately allow the people of Kenya and the Government of the day to execute the mandate that was granted by the people in the election that was conducted in 2022.

I support this Motion with those reservations.

Hon. Senators, I have 15 more Senators who wish to contribute. We have long surpassed the one-hour mark. The Mover who was supposed to reply donated his reply time to the Senators who I have just allowed to make contribution. I will, therefore, allow the Mover to reply under one minute, because that is what is left of his time.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to thank my colleagues who have taken time to comment on this very important exercise. Many shades of opinions have been expressed on this issue that point to the task that is ahead of us. We will try our best as a team to move the country forward in this difficult time. I appreciate each and every Senator who has taken time to comment on this issue.

Your concerns have been noted. As we commence this exercise tomorrow; signing of the framework agreement, going through the agenda and beginning the difficult work of moving the country to close ranks and move forward as a nation, we will be guided by the wisdom of all the Senators that have spoken this afternoon.

I thank and appreciate you colleague Senators for the time that you took. To those that did not get an opportunity to speak my most sincere apologies. I am sure we shall find an opportunity again when we present the report before the House after 60 days; for them to comment and to speak on it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those very many remarks, I beg to reply. I thank you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, he must apologise!

Sen. Cherarkey, take your seat. Serjeant-At-Arms---

Sen. Oketch Gicheru take your seat. Sen. Cherarkey, take your seat or I will order you to leave the chamber.

He must apologise! Hakuna watoto hapa!

Sen. Cherarkey, having prosecuted your concern, kindly take your seat. For the very last time, I am asking you to take your seat.

Sen. Cherarkey, you are out of order, kindly proceed to leave the Chamber.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I cannot be insulted and then you order the Serjeant-At-Arms to throw me out!

Serjeant-At-Arms, kindly escort the Member out of the Chamber. I order you to leave the Chamber for the remainder of today’s sitting.

Serjeant-at-Arms, kindly use the necessary force under Standing Order No.126 to get the Senator out.

Serjeant-At-Arms, kindly ring the Division bell for two minutes.

Clause 6

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. Wakili Sigei): I ask the Chairperson Standing Committee on Finance and Budget to move the amendment.

Serjeant-At-Arms, kindly proceed to withdraw the bar and open the doors.

Next Order.

Clause 6The Temporary Chairperson (

I ask the Chairperson Standing Committee on Finance and Budget to move the amendment.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Chairperson, I beg to move - THAT, Clause 6 of the Bill be amended in paragraph (b) -

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir. As a Committee, we also noted that this amendment was only in regards to the issue of the

Hon. Members, we have one more vote to make. Chairperson?

Division will be at the end. Clause 2

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered the Public Finance Management (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bills No.16 of 2023) and seeks leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, sorry, this is the wrong one.

Nyutu, Murang’a County; Sen. Kathuri, Meru County; Sen. Kinyua, Laikipia County; Sen. Kisang, Elgeyo Marakwet; Sen. (Dr.) Lelegwe Ltumbesi, Samburu County; Sen. Lomenen, Turkana County; Sen. Maanzo, Makueni County; Sen. Madzayo, Kilifi County; Sen. Mandago, Uasin Gishu County; Sen. Mariam Omar, Mandera County; Sen. Methu, Nyandarua County; Sen. Munyi Mundigi, Embu County; Sen. Mungatana, Tana River County; Sen. (Dr.) Murango, Kirinyaga County; Sen. Mwaruma, Taita Taveta County; Sen. (Dr.) Oburu, Siaya County; Sen. Oketch Gicheru, Migori County; Sen. Seki, Kajiado County; Sen. Tabitha Keroche, Nakuru County; Sen. Thang’wa, Kiambu County; Sen. Wafula, Bungoma County; Sen. Wakili Sigei, Bomet County; Sen. Wambua, Kitui County; and, Sen. Wamatinga, Nyeri County.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to Move that the Committee do report to the Senate its consideration of the Public Finance Management (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bills No.16 of 2023) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as a proud member of the Committee on Finance and Budget, I second.

Mover again?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Public Finance Management (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bills No.16 of 2023) be now read a Third Time.

I still ask Sen. Oketch Gicheru to second.

Sen. Oketch Gicheru, proceed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I second.

Thank you.

We have the last Division. Ring the quorum bell for one minute. Please ring the division bell for one minute or for the shortest time possible.

Is he aware that he is to second?

Yes, he is, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as a proud member of the Committee on Finance and Budget, I second.

Hon. Senators, these are the results of the Division-

Mover again?

Hon. Senators, I sincerely thank you for finding time to come to the Senate today. I know you are very busy in other areas of jurisdiction. Kindly open the doors.

Sen. Oketch Gicheru, proceed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I second.

Thank you.

We have the last Division. Ring the quorum bell for one minute. Please ring the division bell for one minute or for the shortest time possible.

Let us set the system light for voting. Members, kindly proceed and vote.

Sen. Mariam Omar and Sen. Lomenen, please approach the Table.

Hon. Senators, these are the results of the Division-

Hon. Senators, I sincerely thank you for finding time to come to the Senate today. I know you are very busy in other areas of jurisdiction. Kindly open the doors.

Hon. Senators, there being no other business on the Order Paper, the Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday 5th September, 2023 at 2.30 p.m.

The Senate rose at 12.55 p.m.