Tuesday, 22nd July, 2025

Clerk, do we have quorum?

Serjeant-at-Arms, kindly ring the Quorum Bell for 10 minutes.

Hon. Senators, we now have quorum. Serjeant-at-Arms, you may stop the Bell. Clerk, proceed to call the first Order.

Hon. Senators, kindly switch to the supplementary Order Paper. That is the one we are going to use to run today's business.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of the Senate Majority Leader, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the Senate today, 22nd July 2025-

I have a mischievous brother behind me.

Proceed, Sen. Mandago. We will defer that business.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of the Senate Majority Leader, I beg to give notice of the following Motion-

THAT, AWARE that the Senate of Kenya is established under Article 93 of the Constitution and its main role as set out at Article 96 is to represent, serve and protect the interests of the counties and their governments;

FURTHER AWARE of the critical role that the Senate plays in the interlinkage between the National and County levels of government and the need to enhance the interaction between the Senate and county governments, as a means of bringing the Senate closer to the counties and the general public;

ACKNOWLEDGING the successes made during the sittings of the Senate outside Nairobi held in Uasin Gishu, Kitui and Turkana counties in September, 2018, 2019 and 2023, respectively;

Order, Sen. Cherarkey and Sen. Kinyua.

FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGING the recommendation of the Senate Business Committee that a sitting of the Senate be held away from the traditional premises in Parliament Buildings, Nairobi, during the term of the 13th Parliament; and the subsequent resolution of the Senate made on 8th March, 2023, to hold plenary and committee sittings in the counties for a one-week period within the month of September in every Session of the 4th Senate, except during an election year with the objective to -

Hon. Senators, just to remind you, under Standing No.117, you are not supposed to come between the Chair and the Senator speaking. Kindly note that.

Proceed, Sen. Wakoli.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Mandago, you will proceed to lay your Paper and give notice of the same.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate, today, 22nd July, 2025-

Report of the 67th Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) Conference held in Sydney, Australia on 3rd to 8th November, 2024.

Order, hon. Members. Pursuant to Standing Order No.45 (2) , allow me to rearrange today's Order Paper. Once Sen. Mandago has given the Notice of Motion, we will move straightaway to Order Nos.8, 9 and 12. Thereafter, we will resume the normal flow of today’s Order Paper.

Proceed, Sen. Mandago.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion- THAT, the Senate notes the Report of the 67th Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) Conference held in Sydney, Australia, on 3rd to 8th November, 2024, laid on the Table of the Senate on Tuesday, 22nd July, 2025.

Clerk, proceed to call Order No.8.

Serjeant-at-Arms, kindly ring the Division Bell for five minutes.

Serjeant-at-Arms, you may now close the Door and draw the Bars.

Hon. Senators, we will do division on Order No.8; The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bills No.9 of 2025) .

Before I put the question, so that you may vote electronically, kindly log out. Serjeant-at-Arms, you may go round the Chamber and pick any card that is unattended in the delegates unit.

Hon. Senators, I will now put the Question. Once I am done, you may now log back in and proceed to vote.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows-

The “Ayes” have it.

Sen. Osotsi, Vihiga; Sen. Sifuna, Nairobi City County; Sen. Wakili Sigei, Bomet County; Sen. Wafula, Bungoma County; and, Sen. Wambua, Kitui County.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows-

Clauses 3-10

(Question, that Clauses 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 be part of the Bill, proposed) Division will be at the end. The First Schedule

(Question, that the First Schedule be part of the Bill, proposed) Division will be at the end. The Second Schedule

Madam Temporary Chairperson, I beg to move- THAT the Bill be amended by deleting the Second Schedule and substituting therefore with the following new Schedule—

Laikipia

477,594,112 511,501,082 543,968,003 406,459,778 Lamu

466,864,730 502,735,064 439,219,777 373,334,857 Machakos

924,156,126 957,194,136 817,384,477 540,775,483 Makueni

780,912,038 964,631,315 772,648,310 494,768,774 Mandera

825,043,653 917,936,058 709,410,958 511,948,091 Marsabit

666,740,178 741,494,088 620,635,223 458,101,332 Meru

991,451,371 1,033,230,263 1,046,885,894 565,023,558 Migori

907,920,737 936,954,113 803,308,177 538,507,125 Mombasa

700,845,894 862,807,953 550,949,872 497,268,190 Murang'a

755,814,834 813,710,947 822,212,796 515,207,988 Nairobi City

1,596,625,912 1,603,909,510 924,648,890 775,756,999 Nakuru

1,034,293,969 1,121,659,233 949,692,125 622,626,699 Nandi

727,658,319 811,140,379 829,614,196 492,132,433 Narok

834,927,075 878,624,509 715,936,269 499,621,001 Nyamira

650,614,404 689,414,409 584,106,355 444,949,706 Nyandarua

706,936,676 758,345,693 683,959,845 469,042,680 Nyeri

710,551,514 760,288,009 779,895,747 492,365,209 Samburu

557,171,977 569,616,860 611,274,116 400,557,424 Siaya

710,085,117 759,893,500 701,924,604 491,970,700 Taita-Taveta

635,498,816 706,797,720 567,140,475 450,325,811 Tana-River

605,987,033 710,218,891 558,967,389 422,272,274 Tharaka-Nithi

485,355,131 508,533,605 561,403,884 404,731,372 Trans-Nzoia

636,754,015 664,759,854 557,198,937 474,454,626 Turkana

770,739,999 863,842,883 704,903,707 510,888,235 Uasin-Gishu

727,164,370 887,273,308 623,694,943 498,842,007 Vihiga

659,816,891 703,918,304 628,658,777 467,917,374 Wajir

784,444,072 992,853,943 791,932,190 502,524,835 West-Pokot

637,364,488 699,024,354 743,044,332 447,670,353

Total 36,369,242,225 39,936,392,660 33,756,814,187 23,414,610,682

proceed on to the next Bill; The Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill (Senate Bills No.7 of 2023).

I request the Clerk to call out the clauses.

Madam Temporary Chairperson, I beg to move- THAT Clause 3 of the Bill be amended by deleting the expression “204 (1) ” appearing immediately after the words “services under Article” and substituting therefore with the expression “204 (2) ”.

To align that with the requirement of the Constitution.

The Temporary Chairperson

: Hon. Members, Division will be at the end Clauses 4, 5 and 6

The Temporary Chairperson

: Division will be at the end The Schedule Hon. Members, I invite the Chairperson, Standing Committee on Finance and Budget, Sen. Roba, to move the amendments.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Chairperson. I beg to move- THAT the Schedule to the Bill be amended in Column 2 of item 13 with respect to KITUI COUNTY by deleting the word “Kisumu” appearing immediately after the expression “30th June, 2026 in” and substituting therefor the word “Kitui”.

The Temporary Chairperson

: Hon. Members, Division will be at the end.

Hon. Members, Division will be at the end Clauses 4, 5 and 6 (Question, that Clauses 4, 5 and 6 be part of the Bill, proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Clause 2, the Title and Clause 1

(Question, that Clause 2, the Title and Clause 1 be part of the Bill, proposed) Division will be at the end. Hon. Senators, that brings us to the end of the considerations under the Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill, (Senate Bill No.7 of 2025).

Serjeant-At-Arms, can you ring the Division Bell for five minutes?

Division will be at the end The Schedule Hon. Members, I invite the Chairperson, Standing Committee on Finance and Budget, Sen. Roba, to move the amendments.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Chairperson. I beg to move- THAT the Schedule to the Bill be amended in Column 2 of item 13 with respect to KITUI COUNTY by deleting the word “Kisumu” appearing immediately after the expression “30th June, 2026 in” and substituting therefor the word “Kitui”. (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Hon. Members, Division will be at the end.

Clause 2, the Title and Clause 1

(Question, that Clause 2, the Title and Clause 1 be part of the Bill, proposed) Division will be at the end. Hon. Senators, that brings us to the end of the considerations under the Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill, (Senate Bill No.7 of 2025).

Serjeant-At-Arms, can you ring the Division Bell for five minutes?

We will verify the results before we go to the next division. Sen. Madzayo, where are you? You have not voted. Can you proceed to vote? We are moving to the next division on all Clauses.

Sen. Madzayo, stay in the House. We will announce the results and then move to the next Bill.

Madam Temporary Chairperson, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the Senate its consideration of The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bills No.9 of 2025) and its approval thereof with amendments. (Question proposed) (Question put and agreed to) The Temporary Chairperson (

Hon. Senators, we are now reporting on the Bill by the Committee of the Whole, The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bills No.9 of 2025) .

Proceed, Chairperson.

We are moving to the Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill (Senate Bills No.7 of 2025) .

Mover.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to move that the honourable House do agree with the Committee on the said report.

I request Sen. Faki to second.

Serjeant-at-Arms, the Bars can be drawn and doors opened.

Hon. Senators, we are now reporting on the Bill by the Committee of the Whole, The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bills No.9 of 2025) .

Proceed, Chairperson.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered the County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bills No.9 of 2025) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mover.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to move that the honourable House do agree with the Committee on the said report.

I request Sen. Faki to second.

Sen. Faki.

I rise to second.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that The County Allocation---

Hon. Senators, let us listen to Sen. Roba in silence, please.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bills No. 9 of 2025) be now read a Third Time. I request Sen. Sifuna to second.

Sen. Sifuna.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I second.

consulted the Clerk-at-the-Table)

Division to be done later. Hon. Senators, we are now reporting on the Bill by the Committee of the Whole, The Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill (Senate Bills No.7 of 2025) .

Chairperson.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered the Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill (Senate Bills No.7 of 2025) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mover.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee on the said report.

I request, Sen. Kinyua, to second.

Sen. Kinyua.

I second.

Mover.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that The Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill (Senate Bills No.7of 2025) be now read a Third Time.

I request Sen. Wambua to second.

Sen. Wambua.

I second.

Serjeant-at-Arms, can you ring the Bell for two minutes?

Hon. Senators, please, settle down. We are voting on The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bills No.9 of 2025) first. Please, log out. Serjeant-At-Arms, pick all unattended cards. Senators, you can log in and proceed to vote, please.

Sen. Thang'wa and Sen. Madzayo, please approach the Table.

Hon. Senators, I had already put the question on the Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill (Senate Bills No.7 of 2025) .

Sen. Mundigi, please sit down.

Hon. Senators, you may log out and log in. You may vote.

Hon. Senators, I will read the results of the division on The County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bills No.9 of 2025) -

Hon. Senators, I will read the results of the Equalisation Fund Appropriation Bill (Senate Bills No.7 of 2025) -

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to reply.

Sen. M. Kajwang’ had a balance of 15 minutes, but I do not see anyone on the screen. Can the Mover reply?

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows-

Order, Sen. Cherarkey. Please, be seated.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to reply.

Serjeant-at-Arms, kindly ring the

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows-

Serjeant-at-Arms, you may withdraw the Bar and open the doors.

Hon. Senators, we will now go back to Order No.7, which is Questions and Statements.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. This is a Statement on the demise and enduring legacy of the late Hon. Catherine Nyamato.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.52 (1) to make a Statement on a matter of national concern namely, the demise and enduring legacy of the late Hon. Catherine Nyamato, who passed away on Wednesday, 16th July, 2025.

The late Hon. Catherine Nyamato, a former Nominated Member of Parliament from Nyamira County, West Mugirango Constituency, was the first woman Member of Parliament from the Gusii Community. She was nominated by the Kenya African National Union Party (KANU) and served with dedication as a Member of the 8th Parliament that ran from 1998 to 2002.

She was a seasoned politician and a woman of valor who never compromised her beliefs. She was known to be fearless and passionate in what she fought for and never surrendered even in the face of intimidation. Even so, she was both humble and principled and exemplified the spirit of service, which earned her the admiration of colleagues from across the political divide.

Madam Temporary Speaker, beyond her parliamentary tenure, the late Hon. Catherine Nyamato served as the Chairperson of Maendeleo ya Wanawake Organization, which I am a member, through which she amplified the voices of women and girls across the country. She boldly championed womens’ rights and fought against harmful cultural practices like Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) , pushed for gender equality in Kenya and was relentless in her advocacy for women leadership. She also founded the Nyamato Foundation, where she took part in programmes geared towards transforming the lives of her people.

Madam Temporary Speaker, Sir, the legacy of the late Hon. Catherine Nyamato---

Additionally, many people lose their lives due to the lack of anti-snake venoms in health facilities across the country. The Government should ensure that all health facilities are properly stocked with anti-snake venoms because snakes are present in every part of the country.

I urge all Kenyans, including community leaders, schools, conservation organizations and citizens, to take time to learn about our native snake species, understand their roles and discourage unnecessary killing. Let us teach the next generation to respect rather than fear and to protect rather than destroy our environment. Together, we can create a future where snakes are often not seen as threats, but are essential allies to our conservation journey.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. Happy World Snake Day.

Order, Senators. The rights of snakes must be protected.

Proceed, Sen. Okenyuri.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. This is a Statement on the demise and enduring legacy of the late Hon. Catherine Nyamato.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.52 (1) to make a Statement on a matter of national concern namely, the demise and enduring legacy of the late Hon. Catherine Nyamato, who passed away on Wednesday, 16th July, 2025.

The late Hon. Catherine Nyamato, a former Nominated Member of Parliament from Nyamira County, West Mugirango Constituency, was the first woman Member of Parliament from the Gusii Community. She was nominated by the Kenya African National Union Party (KANU) and served with dedication as a Member of the 8th Parliament that ran from 1998 to 2002.

She was a seasoned politician and a woman of valor who never compromised her beliefs. She was known to be fearless and passionate in what she fought for and never surrendered even in the face of intimidation. Even so, she was both humble and principled and exemplified the spirit of service, which earned her the admiration of colleagues from across the political divide.

Madam Temporary Speaker, beyond her parliamentary tenure, the late Hon. Catherine Nyamato served as the Chairperson of Maendeleo ya Wanawake Organization, which I am a member, through which she amplified the voices of women and girls across the country. She boldly championed womens’ rights and fought against harmful cultural practices like Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) , pushed for gender equality in Kenya and was relentless in her advocacy for women leadership. She also founded the Nyamato Foundation, where she took part in programmes geared towards transforming the lives of her people.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the Kaptagat Integrated Conservation Programme is a visionary initiative led by Principal Secretary for the National Treasury, Dr. Chris Kiptoo. It aims to restore and conserve the Kaptagat Forest ecosystem while uplifting surrounding communities. The programme is aligned with Kenya's national climate goals, supporting the country's target of planting 15 billion trees by the year 2032 and increasing forest cover to 30 per cent.

The programme has been ongoing for several years, with a ninth edition held on 12th July, 2025 at Simotwo Boys High School in Elgeyo-Marakwet County. Dr. Chris Kiptoo, who serves as the patron of the initiative, has remained at the forefront of this noble effort. The event was graced by none other than His Excellency President Dr. William Samoei Arap Ruto, a man of two terms, who attended as the Chief Guest. It brought together Government leaders, conservationists, and members of the local community in a united effort to safeguard the Kaptagat ecosystem.

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Sen. Cherarkey, there is a point of order. Please, sit down.

What is your point of order, Sen. Sifuna?

Madam Temporary Speaker, the rules of this House require that Statements are approved by your office and when they come to the Floor, they shall be read as approved. Can we confirm from the text that was approved by the Speaker if the question of one term or two term was included in the Statement by the Senator for Nandi County?

This is not a place for jokes. We are not here to play games. Let him confirm to us, and the Speaker you can check, whether that word that he has used is in that approved Statement. If he wants to make his own Statements, he can go and do that in rallies in Kapsabet, but not here. We are in this House for serious business. You do not waste our time listening to rubbish.

Sen. Methu, can you let Sen. Cherarkey read his Statement in peace?

Madam Temporary Speaker, the Kaptagat Integrated Conservation Programme is a visionary initiative led by Principal Secretary for the National Treasury, Dr. Chris Kiptoo. It aims to restore and conserve the Kaptagat Forest ecosystem while uplifting surrounding communities. The programme is aligned with Kenya's national climate goals, supporting the country's target of planting 15 billion trees by the year 2032 and increasing forest cover to 30 per cent.

The programme has been ongoing for several years, with a ninth edition held on 12th July, 2025 at Simotwo Boys High School in Elgeyo-Marakwet County. Dr. Chris Kiptoo, who serves as the patron of the initiative, has remained at the forefront of this noble effort. The event was graced by none other than His Excellency President Dr. William Samoei Arap Ruto, a man of two terms, who attended as the Chief Guest. It brought together Government leaders, conservationists, and members of the local community in a united effort to safeguard the Kaptagat ecosystem.

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Sen. Cherarkey, there is a point of order. Please, sit down.

What is your point of order, Sen. Sifuna?

Madam Temporary Speaker, it was offensive to me, just like the rubbish that we see out there.

Sen. Sifuna, that is un-parliamentary language.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I withdraw, but he must only use terms that are approved.

I have already ruled on that.

Madam Temporary Speaker, let him withdraw the phrase “two term.”

I have ruled on that.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the only phrase we can use here is “one term.”

Sen. Sifuna, I have guided on that. The phrase “one term” also has no context in what we are discussing. So, please withdraw your “one term” as well. You have used your space to also make up a statement beyond what you were raising.

Sen. Sifuna, you raised a very important issue.

Madam Temporary Speaker, once he withdraws the “two term” phrase, the “one term” phrase will disappear automatically. Can he first withdraw the offensive words?

Sen. Cherarkey, please withdraw.

Madam Temporary Speaker, let him withdraw the phrase “two term.”

I have ruled on that.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the only phrase we can use here is “one term.”

Sen. Sifuna, I have guided on that. The phrase “one term” also has no context in what we are discussing. So, please withdraw your “one term” as well. You have used your space to also make up a statement beyond what you were raising.

Sen. Sifuna, you raised a very important issue.

Madam Temporary Speaker, once he withdraws the “two term” phrase, the “one term” phrase will disappear automatically. Can he first withdraw the offensive words?

Sen. Cherarkey, please withdraw.

Madam Temporary Speaker, there is what we call stare decisis. When a matter has been ruled on, it stops at that, and we have stopped.

Sen. Cherarkey, please just withdraw the reference to “two term”, so that we proceed. Let us have an orderly House, please.

I do not know why,

Just withdraw. I am guiding you as Chair.

There is one Speaker and you are not following what that Speaker is telling you. Would you kindly do that?

Madam Temporary Speaker, I did not know that Senior Counsel is a heckler, but I withdraw.

It brought together Government leaders and conservationists and members of the local community in a united effort to safeguard the Kaptagat ecosystem.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I withdraw. During the event, President William Ruto announced plans to fence off the Kaptagat Forest.

Sen. Kisang’, what is your point of order? Sen. Cherarkey, just hold on. Sen. Kisang’ has asked for a point of order and I have granted it. Kindly listen.

Madam Temporary Speaker, my point of order is that the House is turning chaotic. Can you please bring order? People are shouting. This is a very important Statement that concerns my county.

We want to conserve and ensure that the forest cover in the country reaches 15 billion; we get carbon credits---

Sen. Kisang’, what is your point of order?

I said ‘Senior Counsel,’ and we have two in the House.

Whoever the Senior Counsel, you have to withdraw and apologize to the two.

To all Senior Counsels in the House, I withdraw and apologize. During the event, President William Samuel Ruto announced plans to fence off Kaptagat Forest and other forests as part of a wider national strategy to protect all state forests in the country. He emphasized the importance of securing this critical water catchment area and affirmed that the Government would mobilise the necessary resources for the task. The President reiterated that while the forest must be protected from illegal activities, local communities should continue to benefit through participatory forest management plans and agreements.

As part of the efforts to boost livelihoods, His Excellency President Dr. William Ruto, led the planting of over 400 avocado seedlings at the school and distributed 50,000 avocado seedlings and 100,000 coffee seedlings to the local farmers.

He also commended Dr. Chris Kiptoo for his outstanding leadership in forest conservation and his duties at the National Treasury. I take this opportunity to commend Dr. Chris Kiptoo for his unwavering dedication to environmental conservation, among other conservationists across the country, particularly his role in restoration of Kaptagat Forest. His commitment to this programme has yielded long-term benefits for both the environment and the people of the region. In his own words, there is nothing more critical now than conserving our environment for current and future generations considering the effects of climate change we are witnessing.

Madam Temporary Speaker, Dr. Kiptoo adopted the Kaptagat Forest Conservation Initiative many years ago. Under his leadership, it has grown into a highly respected and internationally recognized programme. Since its inception in 2017, the Kaptagat Integrated Conservation Programme has brought together national and county governments, private sector partners, civil society and communities to restore this vital ecosystem while improving local livelihoods.

The Kaptagat Initiative continues to serve as a model for balancing environmental protection with economic and social development, a goal that is increasingly becoming central to both national and global conservation strategies. Many residents of Kaptagat have expressed optimism about the ongoing forest restoration efforts. They have reported improvements in their livelihoods, especially through avocado farming and shift away from traditional cereal cultivation. They have voiced their gratitude to Dr. Chris Kiptoo for championing a programme that has brought tangible benefits for their lives.

Beyond his environmental work, Dr. Chris Kiptoo has also championed education and other community-based projects in the North Rift Region and the larger country,

Madam Temporary Speaker, I withdraw. During the event, President William Ruto announced plans to fence off the Kaptagat Forest.

Statements pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) . Sen. Cherarkey you may proceed with your statement.

On a point of clarification, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Sen. Thang’wa what do you want to clarify? Under what order?

Madam Temporary Speaker, I have just listened to Sen. Cherarkey giving his statement under the Standing Order No.52 (1) .

Maybe he can sit down to avoid intimidating me. It has been the norm, when we take the statements to the Table Office, they are axed, over edited, and all that. What Sen. Cherarkey was reading was almost three pages, including some unnecessary things, like “two term”, “tutamtoa” inside there.

Do we have two offices that are dealing with Statements, so that we understand where to take what if you want “meat” in your statement? That is not how they come here. That is something which you should order, that we need to look into it. If you can be allowed to bring your statement here without editing, without anybody asking a question, allow everyone.

Sen. Thang’wa, I direct that you put your question in writing to the relevant office, so that the issue is discussed.

Sen. Cherarkey, proceed with your Statement under Standing Order No.53 (1) .

Madam Temporary Speaker, I request that you organize refresher courses for some of the Members.

further underscoring his deep commitment to empowering communities at the grassroots level.

In conclusion, with your indulgence, I call upon fellow leaders and members of the public to emulate the efforts of Dr. Chris Kiptoo, the Kaptagat community in Elgeyo- Marakwet County and the stakeholders involved in the Kaptagat Integrated Conservation Programme. Emulating His Excellency Dr. William Ruto, let us all take part in the conservation and restoration of our forests, a natural environment for the benefit of current and future generations.

I thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Statements pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) . Sen. Cherarkey you may proceed with your statement.

On a point of clarification, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Sen. Thang’wa what do you want to clarify? Under what order?

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations on a matter of county-wide concern regarding human resource practices, payroll management and general staff administration within Elgeyo Marakwet County Public Service Board.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the 2023 audit report on the operations of Elgeyo Marakwet County Public Service Board, done by the County Government Sectoral Committee on Administration, Justice and Public Service indicates that the County Public Service Board is grappling with administrative challenges that include unprocedural staff appointments and promotions, irregular payroll practices and non-compliance with public service employment standards. These issues not only affect staff morale and service delivery, but also contribute to inefficiencies in the County's wage bill and resource allocation.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. Abass, the Floor is yours.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I request that you organize refresher courses for some of the Members.

Sen. Cherarkey, on to your statement.

I need clarification, since you gave guidance. I would like to know whether what Sen. Abass is reading is part of what was approved by the Speaker or is he contributing to his statement?

Sen. Abass, you are supposed to read your statement. Please, read what is on your Statement.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations on a matter of county-wide concern regarding human resource practices, payroll management and general staff administration within Elgeyo Marakwet County Public Service Board.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the 2023 audit report on the operations of Elgeyo Marakwet County Public Service Board, done by the County Government Sectoral Committee on Administration, Justice and Public Service indicates that the County Public Service Board is grappling with administrative challenges that include unprocedural staff appointments and promotions, irregular payroll practices and non-compliance with public service employment standards. These issues not only affect staff morale and service delivery, but also contribute to inefficiencies in the County's wage bill and resource allocation.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. Abass, the Floor is yours.

Senator, please, just follow the ruling of the Chair. Just read the Statement.

Okay, Madam Temporary Speaker. Can I have the microphone, please?

Madam Temporary Speaker, cases of unexplained abductions and enforced disappearance have become increasingly frequent in this country with civilians, activists and even public officers being taken without trace.

A recent case is that of Mr. Hussein Abdulrahman, who comes from Wajir County, a senior civil servant who was the Deputy County Commissioner. He was last seen on 8th July, 2005 during a public function attended by the Cabinet Secretary for Public Service and Human Capital Development in Wajir County. Since then, no credible information has been provided regarding the whereabouts of Hussein.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

I need clarification, since you gave guidance. I would like to know whether what Sen. Abass is reading is part of what was approved by the Speaker or is he contributing to his statement?

Sen. Abass, you are supposed to read your statement. Please, read what is on your Statement.

Madam Temporary Speaker, what I had written is not what has been given to me. They have over-edited it. This is exactly what my colleague is complaining about. My statement is over-edited such that it does not explain my message, so I have to explain myself.

No. Let us follow the rule, and then we complain.

Honestly, it is over-edited. There are only two lines here.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I rise pursuant under Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources on a matter of county-wide concern regarding increased cases of human-wildlife conflict in KwaleCounty.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda, you may proceed and read the four.

Yes, Madam Temporary Speaker, I have four Statements this afternoon.

The first statement is on preparedness for Digital-Era public participation

Okay.

Madam Temporary Speaker, Wajir County is an arid area that depends on shallow wells and subsurface waters. Everything is done through irrigation. The economy of Wajir County is largely dependent on agriculture and livestock. However, several small- scale farmers across the county have decried the lack of support from the County Government of Wajir, in addressing the lack of subsidised seeds, fertilizers, pesticides, farming tools, and irrigation systems, despite the fact that the County Government had allocated a substantial amount of money to the sector through the Department of Agriculture in FY2023/2024 and FY2024/2025.

The farmers have also expressed concerns of the County Government’s failure to provide training and extension services to help enhance productivity.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. Chimera, you may proceed.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I will do. He was removed. It is okay; I will apologise. He is no longer the Chairperson.

This is the implementation of the Climate Change Act, 2016 as amended to Climate Change Act, 2023.

In the Statement, the Committee addressed the following-

Sen. Seki, you may proceed.

Yes, Madam Temporary Speaker, I have four Statements this afternoon.

The first statement is on preparedness for Digital-Era public participation

a matter of national concern regarding the implementation status of the Climate Change Act. Sen. Methu used to chair that Committee.

Senator, read what has been cleared.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I will do. He was removed. It is okay; I will apologise. He is no longer the Chairperson.

This is the implementation of the Climate Change Act, 2016 as amended to Climate Change Act, 2023.

In the Statement, the Committee addressed the following-

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker for this opportunity. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Health on a matter of nationwide concern regarding the requirement by the

Social Health Authority (SHA) that patients contribute for a full year before accessing medical care.

Section 17(1) of the Social Health Insurance General Regulations, 2024 provides that households whose income is not derived from salaried employment shall contribute annually to the Social Health Insurance Fund (SHIF) at a rate of 2.75 percent of the household income as determined through the prescribed means testing instruments under Regulation 21.

This regulation is causing widespread concern as many Kenyans, despite making contributions, are being denied access to healthcare services because they have not completed a full year of payments.

This situation undermines the fundamental rights enshrined in Article 43(1)(a) and Article 43(2) of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010, which guarantees every person the right to the highest attainable standard of health, including the right to health care services.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Sen. Hezena.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I have two Statements. I will begin with mine.

Sen. Mwaruma.

Madam Speaker, not

Social Health Authority (SHA) that patients contribute for a full year before accessing medical care.

Section 17(1) of the Social Health Insurance General Regulations, 2024 provides that households whose income is not derived from salaried employment shall contribute annually to the Social Health Insurance Fund (SHIF) at a rate of 2.75 percent of the household income as determined through the prescribed means testing instruments under Regulation 21.

This regulation is causing widespread concern as many Kenyans, despite making contributions, are being denied access to healthcare services because they have not completed a full year of payments.

This situation undermines the fundamental rights enshrined in Article 43(1)(a) and Article 43(2) of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010, which guarantees every person the right to the highest attainable standard of health, including the right to health care services.

In the Statement, the Committee should address the following-

Over the weekend at a function, I was actually challenged by people who could not distinguish between monthly and yearly payment. There is an assumption that everybody understands English and Kiswahili. That is not true. We live in a country, especially particularly those of us who represent rural counties, where we have the elderly who did not have the benefit of going to school. They too deserve access to that information.

Therefore, I enjoin myself in the comments by Sen. Mwaruma that there is need for clarity in that particular space. While you and I, who are salaried employees, Madam Temporary Speaker, will not face a challenge because this is deducted alongside our salaries, it is causing a lot of challenges to the ordinary citizens who have to pay either on a monthly or yearly basis; and what provisions have been made.

I know, for example, that SHA has actually provided even the opportunity that you can borrow funds through Hustler Fund and end up paying for your yearly contribution, so to speak. However, that information is not available to the people that I represent. Therefore, on that account, I expect that the CEO will provide this information for citizens to be able to understand.

Lastly, in their tabulation, of how much each county government received in own- source revenue, I have seen governors from across the country include SHA compensation in the declaration. It will make more sense if SHA gave us the information actually to know how much has been compensated back to each county so that we can tell our governors that when we pass this law, we included something called a Facility Improvement Fund. That money cannot be used for anything else other than to develop the hospitals for which that Fund has been collected. Therefore, it will be important that when that statement is responded to, we get a breakdown of the compensation that has gone to each of the 47 counties in the last seven months that SHA has been in operation.

I thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I rise to contribute on the Statement brought by the Senator for Taita Taveta, Sen. Mwaruma, on the contributions to SHA, having a requirement that the beneficiaries must contribute at least yearly to enable you access the services.

The Social Health Authority (SHA) is a very bold step by President William Ruto and a very necessary one in our country towards universal health care. However, this provision that the beneficiaries need to contribute at least the annual deductions so that you can be able to access the service is somewhat discriminatory. This is because what happens to Mama Mboga who falls ill a month into contribution? What happens to the Boda operator if he gets an accident after contributing for two to three months? We are exposing the same people that we seek to protect in this universal health care provision to the worst-case scenario, even death.

We need to relook at the implementation. We need to have a three-tier or maybe some tier in the sense that you can contribute after three months you can access, after six months you can access, so that we do not beat the purpose. The purpose is very noble; to ensure that our citizens at the bottom of the pyramid get to access healthcare equally for all Kenyans regardless of your background or financial strength. I want to urge the

Sen. Cheruiyot.

Mr. Speaker, I have two quick comments. Number one is on this issue---

Madam Speaker, not

Apologies, Madam Speaker, I stand corrected. My apologies.

Madam Temporary Speaker, it is a serious problem and that problem is particularly common in day secondary schools in the villages where parents cannot afford to pay exorbitant fees and therefore, they depend quite a lot on capitation from the Government. Something has to be done around the issue of funding of schools. I support the two Statements. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am not Mr. Speaker.

Committee for Health to interrogate this system and bring clarity to ensure that we do not defeat the purpose of the whole system.

I thank you.

I was in Turkana County when we passed these laws that put SHA into motion. We must admit that when it is not working, something has to be done. It is not just about running in villages in the name of empowerments and saying SHA is working, SHA is not working. These are specific cases that have been raised in this specific Statement.

I think the reason why this issue of the SHA makes sense to most of the Members of Parliament and why they keep defending it even when there are very glaring gaps in this SHA, is for the mere reason that all of us are salaried.

Our deductions are made just directly from our payslips. More importantly, we also have a very good medical cover and because Members of Parliament have a very good medical cover, they do not care what the other Kenyans are feeling and how they are suffering.

It does not make sense that you have paid for SHA faithfully for two, four or seven months, but if you have not paid for it annually, you cannot get the service. Tell me, if you have paid for eight months and you are not able to get services on the eighth month. What happens about the other months that you have paid? We shall continue speaking until this SHA works the way it is supposed to work.

Finally, I would want your guidance on how you processed the Statement that was sought by Sen. Thang’wa. I am a bit uncomfortable with the Statement that has been sought by Sen. Hezena Lemaletian.

In this Statement, the good Senator is asking for protection of traders because traders have come to their County of Samburu. I do not think there is a law that would prohibit anybody from doing business anywhere, because what has been sought in this Statement is that there is an influx of traders from outside the county who are doing transport of goods and services---

Sen. Methu, in 30 seconds, finish, please.

In fact, you should give me one minute, because it is you who processed this particular Statement. This is a very defective Statement and we must speak about inclusivity.

Proceed.

We are speaking about inclusivity. We cannot speak about inclusivity when we want to exclude some people from doing some business from some place.

If you were to argue the same way, the Senator for Nairobi City County would say that people are doing business in Nairobi; then it would be very difficult for me to set up a business in Kericho. It will be very difficult for a Kenyan to go and do business in Vihiga. We must allow free movement of goods and services. We must allow free trading between communities across board.

I also find it very ridiculous that in one of the questions of the Statement is the enforcement---

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.

What is your point of order, Sen. Cheruiyot?

The Senate Majority Leader (Sen. Cheruiyot): Apologies to interrupt my neighbour, but I just wanted to request him to cut that part of the clip of what he has spoken in his lucid moment here in the House, where he speaks about inclusivity and send it to his party leader currently in the USA, who has told us that only one community does business.

Sen. Cheruiyot, you are out of order.

In fact, you should give me one minute, because it is you who processed this particular Statement. This is a very defective Statement and we must speak about inclusivity.

Proceed.

We are speaking about inclusivity. We cannot speak about inclusivity when we want to exclude some people from doing some business from some place.

If you were to argue the same way, the Senator for Nairobi City County would say that people are doing business in Nairobi; then it would be very difficult for me to set up a business in Kericho. It will be very difficult for a Kenyan to go and do business in Vihiga. We must allow free movement of goods and services. We must allow free trading between communities across board.

I also find it very ridiculous that in one of the questions of the Statement is the enforcement---

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I support this Motion and pray that when the Committee looks at it, it will do a holistic job of looking at the entire architecture of universal health care, including answering the question whether you can credibly run universal health care in private hospitals.

I thank you.

Thank you, Sen. Omtatah. Sen. Okenyuri Esther, it is your turn.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I wish to comment on the Statement by Sen. Catherine Mumma on unchecked inflammatory utterances by influential public figures. We cannot legislate on morality because such kind of utterances have to do with behaviour. Unfortunately, the Kenyan populace cheers such kind of utterances. What can we do in regard to that Statement by Sen. Mumma?

This is calling to the attention of all of us to check on the culture we have. When you observe political podiums, the most-nasty statement is what people cheer and our young people are learning, picking up from what they see their leaders do.

Therefore, before Sen. Mumma requests the Committee to look into this, as leaders, we need to call ourselves and look at what examples we are showing the young people, the youth of this country, the women and any other person who is expecting direction from the leaders. We have disappointed them. In as much as Sen. Mumma is concerned with this behaviour, it is a challenge on us, as leaders, to look at how we can change the culture and improve behaviour.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I also wish to comment on the Statement by Sen. Hezena on the influx of traders to Samburu. I hope she was trying to address about trade imbalance and that being a concern.

The best way is to look at what is most pressing and not to restrict the movement of those traders because as a sponsor of the Street Vendors Bill, that is not the one way of protecting small-scale traders and the hustles people engage in. There is a better way of addressing the trade imbalance so that both those in Samburu and those not in Samburu can benefit from this exchange that is happening.

Thank you, Sen. Essy. Next Order.

Sen. Methu, ignore that and finish with your 15 seconds.

Madam Temporary Speaker, my former cousin is a bit uncomfortable with the new friends that I have got, the likes of Sen. Sifuna, the new cousin now. I just wanted to say, a question has been asked on the enforcement mechanism to ensure that traders from other counties comply with the county trade and market rules.

The enforcement is by the county, because the rules are by the county. What else is the Committee or the Senate expected to do in terms of enforcement? If these people have paid the levies and fees that are required to do business in Samburu County, nobody can or should stop them. When we speak about integration---

Sen Omtatah, please, proceed.

THAT the National Assembly amendments to the Start-up Bill (Senate Bill No.14 of 2022) be now considered.

The Start-up Bill seeks to provide a framework to encourage growth, sustainable technological development, new entrepreneurship employment and creating a more favourable environment for innovation and attract Kenyan talents and capital.

I also wish to thank my sister, Sen. Crystal Asige, for this Bill. After the Bill was passed by the Senate on 21st February, 2024, it was transmitted to our sister House as required by the Constitution. The Committee on Trade, Industrialization and Tourism, that I sit in, in the National Assembly considered this Bill and came up with 51 amendments to it.

Our Committee reviewed the amendments made by the National Assembly and agreed with 25 amendments but rejected 26 of them. The amendments by the National Assembly that the Committee adopted enriched this Bill further and we saw no need of dropping them.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I will comment on the amendments that the Committee rejected. The Committee noted that the National Assembly had sidelined county governments in this Bill. They had removed counties from participating in any role. An example was deleting the definitions of the CECMs or county executive members.

The Committee rejected the deletion of this because deleting the role of the CECMs, as it is, would make implementation at the county level impossible. Therefore, under Clause 4 of this Bill, the National Assembly deleted the role of the agency and the county governments and replaced it with the role of the agency and the estate in the implementation of Act No. 4.

Madam Temporary Speaker, our Committee rejected this proposal and reinstated the functions of the county governments. Having deleted Clause 4, which related to the functions of the county governments, the National Assembly deleted Clause 5, whose reference is incubation programs and the role the national and county governments play.

Our Committee also rejected this and resolved that provision in respect on the role of county governments be reinstated and incubation programmes be provided for in this Bill. The Committee further observed that since start-ups operate in both the national and county governments economies, a coordinated approach is necessary to balance national policies.

The National Assembly wanted to delete the Registrar of Start-ups whose responsibility was to register start-ups and replace with a start-up committee. The Committee resolved to restore the Registrar of Start-ups because the Committee proposed by the National Assembly had reduced the function in comparison to that Registrar.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I request Members to read this Report and adopt it as presented by the Committee of Trade, Industrialisation and Tourism.

I move and request the Senate Majority Leader, Sen. Aaron Cheruiyot, to second.

Thank you. Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to second this Motion by the Vice-Chairperson of the Committee on

Thank you, Sen. Omtatah. Sen. Okenyuri Esther, it is your turn.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I wish to comment on the Statement by Sen. Catherine Mumma on unchecked inflammatory utterances by influential public figures. We cannot legislate on morality because such kind of utterances have to do with behaviour. Unfortunately, the Kenyan populace cheers such kind of utterances. What can we do in regard to that Statement by Sen. Mumma?

This is calling to the attention of all of us to check on the culture we have. When you observe political podiums, the most-nasty statement is what people cheer and our young people are learning, picking up from what they see their leaders do.

Therefore, before Sen. Mumma requests the Committee to look into this, as leaders, we need to call ourselves and look at what examples we are showing the young people, the youth of this country, the women and any other person who is expecting direction from the leaders. We have disappointed them. In as much as Sen. Mumma is concerned with this behaviour, it is a challenge on us, as leaders, to look at how we can change the culture and improve behaviour.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I also wish to comment on the Statement by Sen. Hezena on the influx of traders to Samburu. I hope she was trying to address about trade imbalance and that being a concern.

The best way is to look at what is most pressing and not to restrict the movement of those traders because as a sponsor of the Street Vendors Bill, that is not the one way of protecting small-scale traders and the hustles people engage in. There is a better way of addressing the trade imbalance so that both those in Samburu and those not in Samburu can benefit from this exchange that is happening.

want us to go the way they are proposing, though I do not also agree with what the National Assembly had proposed that the current Registrar is sufficient.

There was good thinking and logic on coming up with the Start-up Bill. We understand that there is a process of registering a business but a startup faces unique challenges.

What is being envisioned in this particular Bill is to make it easy for those who run startups to operate with very little or minimum Government interference. That is why I disagree with our colleagues in the National Assembly on many occasions. I wish they had restricted themselves or at least said something about the issue of taxation challenges that startups face in this country.

Every time we introduce an amendment that appears even in the minutest of details close to anything to do with taxation, that House goes up in flames and rejects it. It is our genuine expectation that they are self-governed on that particular topic. Since they say that they are the only ones with the ability to consider it, at least, they should have said something about either tax rebates or having a special unit within the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) to specifically handles issues of startups.

You will find the same legal requirements that are faced by businesses that have been in existence for 50 or 60 years. Some of them are extremely stringent requiring somebody running a complete enterprise with an accountant for them to meet tax requirements but you know how we change taxation policy in this country almost on a yearly basis.

It was my genuine expectation that we would make the taxation regime very friendly for somebody who runs a startup where they are the Chief Executive Officer (CEO), Human Resource (HR) manager and accountant. Unfortunately, that has not been spoken about.

If the House agrees with what the Committee on Trade, Industrialisation and Tourism is telling us, that we consider and reject some of the amendments, that will trigger a mediation. It is my hope that people who will be put into that mediation committee to represent us in this House will say something about a tax proposition to startups because they can introduce something at the mediation level.

We should provide a unique environment for them so that you do not have to consider them alongside more established businesses to make it possible for them to transact and grow their enterprises devoid of all these other challenges.

With those many remarks, Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to second.

Chairperson Standing Committee on Trade, Industrialization and Tourism to move the Motion. You are holding forth.

Sen. Essy proceed as the Vice-Chair.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I am holding fort for the Chair. I am the Vice-Chairperson of that Committee.

I beg to move-

THAT the National Assembly amendments to the Start-up Bill (Senate Bill No.14 of 2022) be now considered.

The Start-up Bill seeks to provide a framework to encourage growth, sustainable technological development, new entrepreneurship employment and creating a more favourable environment for innovation and attract Kenyan talents and capital.

I also wish to thank my sister, Sen. Crystal Asige, for this Bill. After the Bill was passed by the Senate on 21st February, 2024, it was transmitted to our sister House as required by the Constitution. The Committee on Trade, Industrialization and Tourism, that I sit in, in the National Assembly considered this Bill and came up with 51 amendments to it.

Our Committee reviewed the amendments made by the National Assembly and agreed with 25 amendments but rejected 26 of them. The amendments by the National Assembly that the Committee adopted enriched this Bill further and we saw no need of dropping them.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I will comment on the amendments that the Committee rejected. The Committee noted that the National Assembly had sidelined county governments in this Bill. They had removed counties from participating in any role. An example was deleting the definitions of the CECMs or county executive members.

The Committee rejected the deletion of this because deleting the role of the CECMs, as it is, would make implementation at the county level impossible. Therefore, under Clause 4 of this Bill, the National Assembly deleted the role of the agency and the county governments and replaced it with the role of the agency and the estate in the implementation of Act No. 4.

Madam Temporary Speaker, our Committee rejected this proposal and reinstated the functions of the county governments. Having deleted Clause 4, which related to the functions of the county governments, the National Assembly deleted Clause 5, whose reference is incubation programs and the role the national and county governments play.

Our Committee also rejected this and resolved that provision in respect on the role of county governments be reinstated and incubation programmes be provided for in this Bill. The Committee further observed that since start-ups operate in both the national and county governments economies, a coordinated approach is necessary to balance national policies.

The National Assembly wanted to delete the Registrar of Start-ups whose responsibility was to register start-ups and replace with a start-up committee. The Committee resolved to restore the Registrar of Start-ups because the Committee proposed by the National Assembly had reduced the function in comparison to that Registrar.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I request Members to read this Report and adopt it as presented by the Committee of Trade, Industrialisation and Tourism.

I move and request the Senate Majority Leader, Sen. Aaron Cheruiyot, to second.

Thank you. Sen. Okenyuri. Proceed, the Senate Majority Leader.

Thank you. Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to second this Motion by the Vice-Chairperson of the Committee on

Trade, Industrialization and Tourism. The Start-Up Bill is a very important Bill. This Bill has gone full cycle because we attempted to conclude on it in last term but unfortunately, colleagues in our sister House did not agree with many of the provisions that we had put in at that particular time.

At this point, I am impressed that they have considered, albeit with amendments, that many of us will find very difficult to agree to. It is on that basis that we are moving this Motion to consider parliamentary language, but in true sense what we are doing is rejecting a number of amendments from the National Assembly because our perspective and views on issues as a House diametrically differ with how colleagues from our sister House look at things. That is the beauty of our democracy and a bicameral Parliament.

Madam Temporary Speaker, we serve to protect interests of county governments. Anytime somebody does any amendment to any law that is to the disadvantage of county governments, we find it very difficult.

Personally, I will never support such a Bill because I know for a fact that having looked at the history of this country, despite my relatively young age, looking at over 60 years that Kenya has been under self-governance, devolution still occupies a bridal place as the best innovation ever by the people of Kenya to themselves. At every turn, we should always seek to entrench it and ensure that when we pass laws in this House, we foster devolution. We will deal with the rest of the challenges later.

The thieving that we have in our county governments and all that, I have said times without number that they are not unique; they are Kenyan problems that exist both at the national and county government level. It should never be a basis upon which to deny functions to county governments.

It is about inefficiency. The same level of inefficiency that I see in the national Government is what I see in county governments. Therefore, that should not be a basis upon which somebody argues and says that there will be efficiencies in a particular office.

In fact, to the contrary, I am a firm believer that if we want to exercise efficiency in service delivery, we should devolve more functions of the national Government. What is the problem if people are allowed to register businesses back in the counties and keep a single registry? What is unique about business registration that it has to be centralised? There is no problem.

There can be ways of having a similar system that checks and ensures that you do not have same registration details belonging to one particular business within the country. If you look at the process which people go through, they are told to wait because papers have to be sent to Nairobi for this or the other. There is need to further decentralise.

Madam Temporary Speaker, if you go to a Huduma Centre in Kagio, next to your home to register a startup as a person from the village where you come from, they will tell you that you can begin that particular exercise. However, it will take a lot of time because that system is still centralised. Details have to be sent to Nairobi here to be counterchecked before going back. That is no way of ensuring there is efficiency.

On this particular issue of registration of businesses and the desire to have a registrar purely for start-ups, I would like to be convinced by the Committee why they

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to move that the Technopolis Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 6 of 2024) be now read a Second Time.

The Technopolis Bill (National Assembly Bill No.6 of 2024) was published in the Kenya Gazette Supplement No.30 of 2024, dated 2nd February, 2024 and passed by the National Assembly in December last year. After which, it was referred to this House in February. Our Committee has done some fairly good job on it and they also listened to the stakeholders.

Our aspirations, as a country, to be the regional leaders and perhaps even challenge the global leaders in the technological space is not a secret. Over the years, world-renowned tech giants have visited this country to learn a thing or two about the things that we do as a country. Despite the fact that we have other challenges, technology has helped many people create businesses. Today, in the absence of the technological innovative space that exists in this country, many young people would be jobless.

Therefore, as policymakers and legislators, we must always strive to continue to work hard and make ourselves respectable global leaders, at least on the African Continent. I know for a fact that very few nations will hold a candle to us in regard to Information Technology start-ups. At the very basic level, we have availability of internet services through the broadband superhighway across the country.

Madam Temporary Speaker, you were the Secretary General of United Democratic Alliance (UDA) and you will remember that part of our five key agendas was to lay over 100,000 kilometres of cable across the country, what one might refer to as the digital superhighway. The intention was to ensure that people easily access internet. We all understand that many young people draw or run their businesses through the internet space. We have to ensure that this is provided and must also do things that encourage this innovation.

As I speak today, I am disappointed that this Bill will only be responding to one of the digital hubs at that very high level that has been set up in the country, the Konza Technopolis. I will be happy to see similar campuses replicated in many parts of the country. In my first term in this Senate, I had the opportunity to serve in the Committee on Information Communication and Technology. While in that Committee, we visited what you would refer to as proper digital hubs. The first one is the Panasonic Centre in Tokyo, Japan, and the other one is in a particular city in China.

It was within that particular space that I began to appreciate what information development centres like Konza Technopolis can do and contribute in terms of business opportunity to this country. We must strive and find ways to provide them with a legal

Thank you, Senate Majority Leader.

Hon. Senators, I will now propose the question.

Yes, Sen. Osotsi.

His name should be removed from the dashboard. Sen. Crystal Asige Kegehi, this is your Bill. You can contribute on it.

Madam Temporary Speaker, first of all, I would like to give my heartly gratitude to Members of the Committee on Trade, Industrialisation and Tourism who considered the amendments from the National Assembly on the Start-up Bill. I commend them for the work they have done.

From what I have read, there were few amendments Members of the National Assembly proposed to the Bill. I also want to thank sincerely the Chair of the Committee on Trade, Industrialisation and Tourism, that is the Senator for Kwale County, and the Vice-Chair who has just moved this Motion.

I am the Sponsor of the Bill. Like the Vice-Chair said, I tabled it back in 2023 and has taken quite a long journey to come to this point. I have also looked at the Report that was made by the Senate Committee on Trade, Industrialisation and Tourism to the amendments and I agree and support wholly the suggestions they have made to the Start- up Bill.

Madam Temporary Speaker, it would hurt this House if we carried on and supported amendments from the National Assembly in full. That would mean that our functions as the Senate are moot. That would remove any kind of responsibility, function or mandate to the Senate if we were to agree in full with these amendments that have been proposed.

Rejecting or removing the function of the County Executive Committee Member (CECM) at the county level would tear down the spirit in which I drafted and pushed for this particular Bill. Therefore, I agree with that and also removing the function of the Registrar whereby startups are able to go and get themselves registered, so that they can get the support they would have enjoyed because of many of the Clauses I put in the Bill. It then becomes a big issue for us, as a Senate or a House, to see ourselves represented and having a say or task, within this Bill.Of course,the

Committee on Trade, Industrialization and Tourism has approved some of the amendments that the National Assembly put forth, which I also want to agree with. I trust that the Senate Committee on Trade, Industrialization and Tourism have gone through every single clause, deliberated and articulated the issues for or against each one of them. I have no problem with the ones they have said should carry on as amended by the National Assembly. However, as the Senate Majority Leader has rightfully said, the clauses from the National Assembly that we want to reject will trigger a mediation process. We want the mediation process to move as smoothly as possible. At this point, I want to plead with my Senate colleagues to start talking to the Members of Parliament, who are our colleagues in the other House, and explain to them that we will have no place in this Bill if we are to go by their amendments. I, as the sponsor of the Bill, will have no place in the Bill.

At the end of the day, the people who are the stakeholders; the young people, business owners, innovators, entrepreneurs, science and research fellows across the country, will be the ones to suffer. This Bill tries to solve the problem of unemployment. As young people, we are saying that if we are not going to get employed, then we might as well create employment and become the employer. That is the spirit of the Start-Up

Bill (Senate Bills No. 14 of 2022). If we continue with the route that has been suggested by the National Assembly, then I am afraid that this will not have a positive consequence on the people that it is supposed to serve, who are young people and entrepreneurs across the country.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I would like to support the Report by our Committee on Trade, Industrialisation and Trade and encourage, plead and beseech the rest of the House to vote no to the National Assembly amendments. This is because we are not in full agreement at this very moment. It will trigger a mediation process. During that process, we can all sit down. In the mediation, Members from each House will sit down and hash out what is critical. We can look at what needs to remain for us not to remove the mandate of both Houses from the Bill. We can also look at what can be done away with at this point.

At the end of the day, we need to remember that we are not here to serve ourselves. We have to know that we are here to serve young people and entrepreneurs across the country for them to look for gainful and meaningful employment, as well as contribute to the innovation and prosperity of our economy.

The young people have fantastic ideas and we need to create a conductive environment for them. We also need to support them through capacity building. We can do that through the different hubs being suggested by the Bill that I have put forward. We can also have funds to support them at their start-up level. They can also be taken through different trainings and be given seed funding for their ideas and innovations. All that is within this Bill.

So, to support the young people of this country, we need to get to the mediation process as soon as possible, agree on both sides and pass this Bill. I feel that should be our bottom line. My bottom line is to listen, oversight and articulate, then we can legislate fully and effectively for the people that we are here to serve.

I support and thank you.

Thank you, Sen. Crystal Asige. There are no other Senators willing to contribute. I will, therefore, call upon the Mover to reply.

Madam Temporary Speaker, in a metropolis, you cannot limit the metropolis to a geographical area or a buffer zone, a defined area, and say this number of acres of land will be used by Konza City. We know technologies are growing every day. Therefore, the idea of limiting, for example, Konza City, to only about 2,023 acres is myopic and we should amend that, so that there is no limitation. It is like saying we want to have a city which must be established within 1,000 acres of land. Cities and institutions grow every day. So, I have a problem with that limitation; that, a metropolis will be limited to a particular size of a buffer zone or geographical area. It is not proper thinking.

Madam Temporary Speaker, given that this is going to be an area that is going to host Information and Communication Technology (ICT), it is not proper, because in ICT, talking as someone who is very experienced in this field, when you are conceptualizing an idea, product, or solution, you must look at the wider context. For example, if you are developing a piece of software, think widely about what other things can ride on that solution that you are building.

For example, Madam Temporary Speaker, you have seen institutions like telecommunication companies establishing a solution, and then after a short time, you hear that they want to scale it up to introduce another solution to it. Every time they do that, it is costly. That is why in ICT, we encourage that every time you are conceptualizing a solution, you must have a wider thinking. That wider thinking is not reflected in this Bill, because it is limiting a technopolis to only 2,000 acres of land. It is not making sense.

So, even as the National Assembly has processed this Bill, and now it has come to the Senate, one of the key amendments should actually be to remove this provision. Let the land use regulation be there, but do not limit the land size. That would be myopic. Moreso, because Clause 20 of the Bill, is recommending that all Government digital service, should go to Konza Technpolis City; that, tax, immigration, permit and approval, licensing of business, the Ministry of Information, Communications and the Digital Economy, and regulatory bodies like Communications Authority of Kenya (CAK) and all other ICT institutions should go to Konza City. If you say that, and you are limiting land size, then there is a problem. So, the issue of limitation of land size and having a buffer zone is not good thinking. It is not wisdom. This Senate should amend that, so that we allow scalability. That is the right word of ICT that I wanted to use.

That is why these modern countries with modern technologies have established smart cities. If you go to China, India, Russia and other countries, the smart cities have no limitation of boundaries. This is the first Technopolis that is being defined in terms of number of acres. Just look at the definition of Konza Technopolis City, for example. This is what it says-

“Konza Metropolis means all that parcel of land known as land reference No.9918/6 measuring 2023.6 hectares or thereabouts.”

Is that how you define a Technopolis? No. You cannot define a technopolis based on a definite size of land. This Bill cannot pass in the form it is in. We will have done injustice to this country. I said I am supporting you, but with some reservations.

If you look at the function of the Authority, it says that the Authority will allocate land to investors. Are we going to take away the work of Ministry of Lands, Public

Works, Housing, and Urban Development or the National Land Commission and give it to this Authority? That must be looked into because this is another area that land grabbers will come in and allocate themselves land in Konza City and other technopolis. That must be looked into.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am being encouraged by my colleagues to be brief. However, you know, this is my area. So, let me educate this House a bit in these areas.

Another area of concern is the composition of the Board. The Board has a Chairperson, a Principal Secretary (PS) in charge of the Ministry of Information, Communications and the Digital Economy, the National Treasury, Attorney General and five other persons appointed by the Cabinet Secretary through a competitive process. The reason why this country cannot maximize on its huge human resources in the ICT industry is because institutions that are supposed to be headed by people who understand information and technology are being headed by people who have no idea about ICT. We are repeating this mistake here. For instance, the Communication Authority of Kenya is being headed by a journalist, yet he has no idea about ICT. The ICT Authority is being headed by someone who does not understand ICT.

Madam Temporary Speaker, for the first time, I will be sponsoring an amendment to say that the Chairperson of this Authority must be someone who is educated and knowledgeable in an ICT environment either software engineering, artificial intelligence, or those kinds of things. Not just to appoint someone. You may find a politician is appointed to be the chairperson of this Authority. This Authority will not accomplish its mission.

Out of the five persons, it must be clear that at least three of those persons must be people with an ICT background. They must be attested, verified and measured experience in ICT industry. That way, we will make progress as a country. However, when we start these ICT institutions and give jobs to people who have no background in ICT, we end up not---

In the last Parliament, I came up with a Bill called ICT Practitioners Bill, where I wanted to have a legal framework to regulate the ICT profession so that we get to understand who is an expert and who is not an expert.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to move that the Technopolis Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 6 of 2024) be now read a Second Time.

The Technopolis Bill (National Assembly Bill No.6 of 2024) was published in the Kenya Gazette Supplement No.30 of 2024, dated 2nd February, 2024 and passed by the National Assembly in December last year. After which, it was referred to this House in February. Our Committee has done some fairly good job on it and they also listened to the stakeholders.

Our aspirations, as a country, to be the regional leaders and perhaps even challenge the global leaders in the technological space is not a secret. Over the years, world-renowned tech giants have visited this country to learn a thing or two about the things that we do as a country. Despite the fact that we have other challenges, technology has helped many people create businesses. Today, in the absence of the technological innovative space that exists in this country, many young people would be jobless.

Therefore, as policymakers and legislators, we must always strive to continue to work hard and make ourselves respectable global leaders, at least on the African Continent. I know for a fact that very few nations will hold a candle to us in regard to Information Technology start-ups. At the very basic level, we have availability of internet services through the broadband superhighway across the country.

Madam Temporary Speaker, you were the Secretary General of United Democratic Alliance (UDA) and you will remember that part of our five key agendas was to lay over 100,000 kilometres of cable across the country, what one might refer to as the digital superhighway. The intention was to ensure that people easily access internet. We all understand that many young people draw or run their businesses through the internet space. We have to ensure that this is provided and must also do things that encourage this innovation.

As I speak today, I am disappointed that this Bill will only be responding to one of the digital hubs at that very high level that has been set up in the country, the Konza Technopolis. I will be happy to see similar campuses replicated in many parts of the country. In my first term in this Senate, I had the opportunity to serve in the Committee on Information Communication and Technology. While in that Committee, we visited what you would refer to as proper digital hubs. The first one is the Panasonic Centre in Tokyo, Japan, and the other one is in a particular city in China.

It was within that particular space that I began to appreciate what information development centres like Konza Technopolis can do and contribute in terms of business opportunity to this country. We must strive and find ways to provide them with a legal

This new arrangement is very good; now Sen. Osotsi can trust--- Madam Temporary Speaker, I just wanted to inform him in the spirit of what he is proposing, that he would want professionals to take roles on a profession that they are professionals in. I have just googled the Chairperson of the ICT Authority is called Hon. Mary Mungai and there is no known educational background of this person. Her profession is just ‘businesswoman.’

There may be one or two that I will need further convincing or to understand the perspective from which the Members of the Committee on ICT are speaking to us about.

The objective of this Bill will actually provide us with a comprehensive framework to establishment of a technopolis in Kenya and create this Authority known as the Technopolis Development Authority, which is responsible for the development, governance, planning, management, improvement, and maintenance of every technopolis that is available.

That was the point I was speaking to, Sen. Osotsi, that as we speak today, it is only Konza that we can refer to. It will be my wish that this is set up in the different parts of the country.

Madam Temporary Speaker, you know, for example, that in Bomet, where Sen. Wakili Sigei comes from, that there are young people there who I am yet to understand their operation procedures. They do not go to any university. You will never find them trained. They barely even speak English but the things they can do when they are placed in front of a computer---

I still feel we are not treating them correctly because many of them, after they have hacked into Safaricom servers, bank systems, we only arrest them and take them to jail. I believe that as much as what they are doing is wrong, apart from punishing them, we need to understand them better also and establish this knowledge that they have.

Is it something that we can tap into as a country? If somebody has not gone to school but they are able to crack the hardest of bank security systems and withdraw money from your phone or from your bank systems while you are sitting here, Madam Temporary Speaker, that person deserves more than prison. You can have them in prison but also have them teach or earn while they are still there and sustain their families.

I do not want to lose track, but just to make the point that apart from Konza Technopolis, we will need so many other Technopolis stations across the country. This was a strategic intent of our country, and we need to transition into this space, and it has taken us quite a while.

I hope that with the passage of this Bill and after granting the Konza Technopolis this legal framework, they will be able to thrive and attract investment from as many will- be investors. Not necessarily start-ups, Sen. Crystal, but even established global IT companies that will wish to set up base in Africa. I believe this is one among very few, if there are any others, actually, that will compete with it on the continent.

It is my most sincere hope that we can conclude on this process as soon as possible, preferably even before we go on recess. I do not know if our colleagues from the National Assembly will agree to our amendments so that we bring it to a close. It is one of those Bills that you do not want to take too long before bringing the process of consideration to a close.

There are many things that they are amending which I believe if you read the Report, you will find justification to. There are other things also in this Bill, even without the amendments of our colleagues from the Committee on ICT.

Personally, I would find challenge to support and I would wish, perhaps, that they add on to the amendments. An example is Clause 23 (a) that gives powers to this Technopolis Development Control Authority. It says-

The Authority shall have power within a Technopolis to-

Thank you Madam Temporary Speaker, and Majority Leader. I am delighted to second this Bill. This piece of legislation is one of the very important things that were contained in Vision 2030 that was started after 2013.

It has been a while for us to realize the benefits of having technopolis in our country. You can imagine that the idea about having Konza City was started during the late President Kibaki regime. President Kibaki finished and went. Then, it continued on to President Uhuru's Regime, who finished and went. Up to date, we are still talking about Konza City. By now, we should be accruing the benefits of Konza City.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I have read through the Bill. Initially, there was a Bill that was proposing to have Konza Metropolis Authority. I had a problem with that because how many Metropolis Authorities were we going to establish? Konza is one, someone else would have come up with another one, and another one, and another one. Consequently, we would end up having so many authorities and that would be a problem. So, in my opinion, we should all support the idea of consolidating all this into one Metropolis Authority, so that anyone seeking to run a Metropolis can be allowed to run it, but under the regulation of one authority, which in this case is Metropolis Authority. So, on that basis I support this Bill.

Madam Temporary Speaker, even as I support this Bill, because I know it is going to bring order in the way metropolises will be established and run, and how land use within those metropolises will be managed and how licensing of various institutions is going to be done. It is a good idea. However, it is also myopic, and I am sorry to say that. In this Bill, there are provisions which are myopic.

What is your point of order, Sen. Cherarkey.

Works, Housing, and Urban Development or the National Land Commission and give it to this Authority? That must be looked into because this is another area that land grabbers will come in and allocate themselves land in Konza City and other technopolis. That must be looked into.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am being encouraged by my colleagues to be brief. However, you know, this is my area. So, let me educate this House a bit in these areas.

Another area of concern is the composition of the Board. The Board has a Chairperson, a Principal Secretary (PS) in charge of the Ministry of Information, Communications and the Digital Economy, the National Treasury, Attorney General and five other persons appointed by the Cabinet Secretary through a competitive process. The reason why this country cannot maximize on its huge human resources in the ICT industry is because institutions that are supposed to be headed by people who understand information and technology are being headed by people who have no idea about ICT. We are repeating this mistake here. For instance, the Communication Authority of Kenya is being headed by a journalist, yet he has no idea about ICT. The ICT Authority is being headed by someone who does not understand ICT.

Madam Temporary Speaker, for the first time, I will be sponsoring an amendment to say that the Chairperson of this Authority must be someone who is educated and knowledgeable in an ICT environment either software engineering, artificial intelligence, or those kinds of things. Not just to appoint someone. You may find a politician is appointed to be the chairperson of this Authority. This Authority will not accomplish its mission.

Out of the five persons, it must be clear that at least three of those persons must be people with an ICT background. They must be attested, verified and measured experience in ICT industry. That way, we will make progress as a country. However, when we start these ICT institutions and give jobs to people who have no background in ICT, we end up not---

In the last Parliament, I came up with a Bill called ICT Practitioners Bill, where I wanted to have a legal framework to regulate the ICT profession so that we get to understand who is an expert and who is not an expert.

Sen. Osotsi, Sen. Methu has something to inform you about what you are debating.

Sen. Methu calls me a cousin, so let me allow him to.

Proceed, Sen Methu:

This new arrangement is very good; now Sen. Osotsi can trust--- Madam Temporary Speaker, I just wanted to inform him in the spirit of what he is proposing, that he would want professionals to take roles on a profession that they are professionals in. I have just googled the Chairperson of the ICT Authority is called Hon. Mary Mungai and there is no known educational background of this person. Her profession is just ‘businesswoman.’

Thank you for that information. All of us know who she is and her level of experience, heading a critical institution like the ICT Authority---

Is there a relationship between that information and what you were debating?

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am using Standing Order No.105 of the Senate Standing Orders and Article 10 of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010. One of the reasons is even regional balance.

What is the point of order?

The point of order is that Kenyans are watching. There is a perception that Kenyans who do not come from particular expertise should not be leading. I am using an example in the Senate. He is a forester. If we wanted to go for

Madam Temporary Speaker, accuracy of facts, because he has said, he knows who she is. Accuracy of facts, does it mean that Kenyans who are not experts in--- For example, he is a forester. Should he be here?

I am not saying his name, but I think we need to protect that. This habit of Sen. Methu, like his Party Leader, Wamunyoro, wanting to profile the community--- Does it mean Hon. Mary Wambui Mungai, who is an established, a renowned business woman--- this is a person who has been an entrepreneur from the scratch.

Sen. Methu, please, let him finish.

Hon. Mary Mungai is one of the trailblazers among women who have built their enterprise from scratch, unlike some individuals here, who have never built even a chang’aa kiosk.

Madam Temporary Speaker, this issue of profiling communities and individuals must stop. That is why I am saying he is mentioning her because she is a Kikuyu, and we know where he is headed.

Sen. Cherarkey, what is your point of order?

The point of order is under Article 10 of the Constitution. Every Kenyan has a right to sit in---

Sen. Cherarkey, you must---

Madam Temporary Speaker, let me just conclude, so that you can rule.

Sen. Cherarkey

Sen. Sifuna, let me finish with Sen. Cherarkey first. Sen. Cherarkey, can you give an indication of which Standing Order you are using?

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am using Standing Order No.105 of the Senate Standing Orders and Article 10 of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010. One of the reasons is even regional balance.

Madam Temporary Speaker, deal with the infraction in the order in which they came. Deal with him, then you can deal with me.

First, withdraw that and then I deal with Sen. Cherarkey on that issue.

people who know legislative drafting, he should not be here, then why profile individuals?

Okay, Sen. Cherarkey, resume

Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.121 (1) (b) . Sen. Cherarkey is in the habit of raising false points of order knowingly and using that opportunity to introduce debate that had nothing to do with what was being said on the Floor. I do not remember Sen. Osotsi mentioning the name of any tribe; neither did Sen. Methu.

Sen. Osotsi was speaking about getting people who are fit for purpose and competence. We have lost the culture of meritocracy in this country. How can you be a dairy farmer and you want to head an ICT firm? So, you just wait for somebody who has expertise and when we have a vacancy in the Kenya Dairy Board, we will call you. There is nothing wrong with that.

This issue of Sen. Cherarkey repeatedly rising on false points of order, I want to besiege the seat of the Speaker, to punish this gentleman for once. This is too much. It is too much.

Senator---

Madam Temporary Speaker, can I finish?

Hon. Senators. It is now 6.30

Madam Temporary Speaker, the HANSARD exists for a purpose. It is possible for us to establish conduct that is established; that it is repeated conduct. In fact, today is just one of those opportunities that have actually been given to address the question of frivolous and false points of order. Sen. Cherarkey has abused it.

The Speakership should note that there are some people here now who should not be allowed to rise on points of order. It cannot be that you are the only person who knows when other people are out of order. Can you allow Sen. Essy Okenyuri to also rise on a point of order for a change? It cannot just be Sen Cherarkey. We are getting sick and tired of this rubbish from Sen. Cherarkey.

Sen. Sifuna, reference to the word ‘rubbish’ is not a parliamentary language. Can you withdraw the reference of that word ‘rubbish,’ and then I deal with the direction that he needs?

Madam Temporary Speaker, deal with the infraction in the order in which they came. Deal with him, then you can deal with me.

First, withdraw that and then I deal with Sen. Cherarkey on that issue.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I withdraw.

Thank you. Sen. Cherarkey, you may proceed.

Sen. Methu, I will give you a chance, but you will now maintain silence, so that I deal with that issue before I come to you. I have given the direction on it.

Sen. Cherarkey, you were asking for a point of order. Your point of order, first of all, was not clear because you were not clear on what you were seeking from Sen. Methu. While I am on that point of order, the information that was offered by Sen. Methu to Sen. Osotsi had no relation to the Technopolis. You introduced a different organisation and cited a different chairperson. He talked about Technopolis and qualifications of people who should serve in that Technopolis, the Chairperson of the authority.

Sen. Osotsi, can you clarify whether you mentioned the Communications Authority of Kenya

(CAK)

?

He is here. Can you let him clarify for me? Sen. Osotsi, did you mention the CAK or ICT?

Madam Temporary Speaker, I mentioned the CA.

Then that was in order for the point of information to be served.

So, Sen. Cherarkey, regarding your seeking of points of orders on several occasions, it is true that you do seek many points of order, but I would refer to the one that is with respect to these proceedings. Sometimes the points of orders you seek are unusually more than the rest of the Senators. That can be clarified from the HANSARD. Do not use unparliamentary language. You are implored to be more reasonable when seeking the points of order. For instance, the Senator is raising his hand when I am addressing and giving direction on your point of order.

Sen. Cherarkey, it is good you be reasonable in your attempt to seek points of order. While it is your right under the Standing Orders, it is important to be reasonable, so that your points of orders do not become disruptive to the debate and flow of thought of a Senator who is on his feet.

Sen. Methu, proceed.

Hon. Senators. It is now 6.30