Thursday, 9th May, 2024

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, what is your point of order?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise under the Constitution of Kenya to bring to your attention the fact that one of the premier institutions in Kenya, Parliament, is in darkness. We do not know what is happening with Kenya Power (KP) and if there is something wrong with them.

We also do not understand how this institution cannot have a working generator. We have to be assured that before we proceed, that this is not an act of sabotage or Parliament is under threat.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I stand in full support and in solidarity with the sentiments expressed by the Senator for Kakamega. It is literally a dark day in this Parliament and the country. It is unfortunate that on a day like this when the Senator for Kitui and the Deputy Minority Leader has received a delegation from his office in Kitui, there is pitch darkness in the House.

I cannot see, Sen. Wambua.

Sen. Sifuna has a problem seeing me. They can only hear, but not see me because I am dark. Is it in order that this sitting must continue this way? My appeal to you is that you adjourn this House until we get confirmation from the management of this House that we are going to get sufficient light, so that Senators can also see the Senator for Kitui as he addresses the House.

I submit.

Services, Senate.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo): Bw. Spika wa Muda, hili ni jambo la aibu sana katika taifa kwa sababu Bunge haliwezikuwa---

Order, Senator for Elgeyo- Marakwet.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) : Bw. Spika wa Muda, hili ni jambo la aibu sana kutendeka katika Bunge la kitaifa. Hili ni Bunge linalotakikana kuheshimiwa. Hii ni aibu kubwa. Tangu nije hapa kuanzia 2013, hii ni mara ya kwanza kuona kitendo kama hiki kikitendeka ndani ya Bunge hili.

Tungependa kujua kwa nini hakuna umeme katika Seneti. Ningependa Kenya Power itueleze kwa nini Bunge halina stima hadi saa hii. Tungependa kujua kama hatujalipa bili ya stima. Hiyo itakukwa aibu kubwa kwa Serikali.

Bw. Spika wa Muda, tunataka kuwe na umeme hapa, la sivyo uahirishe kikao hiki kwa muda fulani.

Order, hon. Senators. Let us listen to the Chairperson of the Committee on Energy.

Bw. Spika wa Muda, hili ni jambo la aibu sana katika taifa kwa sababu Bunge haliwezikuwa---

Order, Senator for Elgeyo- Marakwet. The Senate Minority Leader (

Services, Senate.

Bw. Spika wa Muda, hili ni jambo la aibu sana kutendeka katika Bunge la kitaifa. Hili ni Bunge linalotakikana kuheshimiwa. Hii ni aibu kubwa. Tangu nije hapa kuanzia 2013, hii ni mara ya kwanza kuona kitendo kama hiki kikitendeka ndani ya Bunge hili. Tungependa kujua kwa nini hakuna umeme katika Seneti. Ningependa Kenya Power itueleze kwa nini Bunge halina stima hadi saa hii. Tungependa kujua kama hatujalipa bili ya stima. Hiyo itakukwa aibu kubwa kwa Serikali. Bw. Spika wa Muda, tunataka kuwe na umeme hapa, la sivyo uahirishe kikao hiki kwa muda fulani. (Loud consultations)

Order, hon. Senators. Let us listen to the Chairperson of the Committee on Energy.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am one of those who believe that when life serves you a lemon, you should make lemonade out of it. As the Chairperson of the Committee on Energy, we have been fighting to make sure that the cost of power is brought down and make power reliable. This is a classical example of how unreliable our power supply is.

I want to take this opportunity that has presented itself to request all Members of this House--- There is a moratorium by the National Assembly. We are not able to look at alternative power generation means.

Developing countries across the world are going the nuclear way because that is the most reliable source of power. As a House, it is high time we asked ourselves whether our sources of power are dependable, reliable and affordable.

As the Chairperson of the Committee on Energy, I urge my fellow Senators that we should enter into a candid discussion on what needs to be done to solve this problem. This is the first time sitting in this House in darkness and it may not be the last time. We know that water is causing damage and ravaging the country.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, could I be heard in silence? As I finish, I would like to tell Members that the Committee on Energy of the Senate will start an inquiry to find out how a certain important organ of the Government can---

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Petition report on the table of the Senate today, 9th May 2024-

A report on the Standing Committee on Health on a Petition by Mr. Jaffa Muhsin Kasee and others concerning management and use of Kenyatta University Teaching and Referral and Research Hospital (KUTRH) by medical students.

Next Order.

Hon. Senators, welcome back from that very brief suspension that was due to factors that were truly beyond our control.

Clerk, you may proceed to call the next order. The Chairperson, Standing Committee on Health?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Petition report on the table of the Senate today, 9th May 2024-

A report on the Standing Committee on Health on a Petition by Mr. Jaffa Muhsin Kasee and others concerning management and use of Kenyatta University Teaching and Referral and Research Hospital (KUTRH) by medical students.

Next Order.

Services, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of the Chairperson of the Committee on Health, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate today, 9th May 2024-

The Report of the Standing Committee on Health on Inquiry on Alleged Irregularities in Procurement of Long-Lasting Insecticide Treatment Nets at Kenya Medical Supply Authority (KeMSA)

Thank you.

The Speaker (Hon. Kingi) : Hon. Senators, before I allow the Clerk to call the next order, allow me to make this Communication.

Proceed to take your seat, Sen. Mariam.

Proceed, Chairperson Standing Committee on Health. Sen. Mariam, are you coming to lay the Paper on behalf of the Health Committee

Services, Senate.

Proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of the Chairperson of the Committee on Health, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate today, 9th May 2024- The Report of the Standing Committee on Health on Inquiry on Alleged Irregularities in Procurement of Long-Lasting Insecticide Treatment Nets at Kenya Medical Supply Authority (KeMSA) Thank you. (

Hon. Senators, before I allow the Clerk to call the next order, allow me to make this Communication. Proceed to take your seat, Sen. Mariam.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know why the Senate Majority Leader is so excited about visitors from my office. I take this opportunity to join you and my colleagues. I am equally excited by the excitement among my colleagues, especially Sen. Kinyua.

At some point, he was unsure whether I would be attending a function that I have later in the evening. However, when he saw the delegation, he came to me and said he wanted to be there. I can see how happy the Senate Majority Leader is.

Services, Senate.

These members of staff from my office have come here to see what we do in this House. These are the people that have caused my election twice. These are the people who have stood with me in good and bad times. I am very happy that they are here to witness the work that we do on the floor of the Senate.

On behalf of the Senate of the Republic of Kenya, I welcome them and wish them a fruitful visit in this Senate.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. (Applause)

Sen. Hamida, take your seat.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Roads, Transportation and Housing regarding the critical issues surrounding the deteriorating condition of the Marere Bridge along the Kwale-Kinango Road.

In the statement, the committee should-

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of the House, first of all, I must apologize to both delegations. You came on a day when we were hit by a small mishap. However, it is not always like that.

I take this opportunity to welcome the students from TUK. I hope that you will follow the proceedings and get to pick one or two things here. I wish you well in your school, so that in the future you can also be part of this House.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I do not have much to say today.

Services, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Roads, Transportation and Housing regarding the critical issues surrounding the deteriorating condition of the Marere Bridge along the Kwale-Kinango Road.

In the statement, the committee should-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare regarding the crisis caused by corruption and nepotism allegations at the Kenya Academy of Sports (KAS) , an institution that is vital to the development of sports in the country.

In the statement, the committee should-

Proceed, Sen. Mumma.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on National Security, Defense and Foreign Relations regarding insecurity in Vihiga County.

In the statement, the committee should address the following-

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Services, Senate.

These unprocedural interdictions, suspensions and even dismissals have demoralized staff across hospitals in Vihiga and affected the quality of healthcare service provision in the county.

Further, the development concerning the running of the health facility in Vihiga County shows that the county did not seriously take the deliberation it had with the Standing Committee on Health and the resultant recommendation given when the Committee visited the county to check on the status of service provision in health facilities in the county.

Among the said recommendations was for the county government of Vihiga to ensure that at least either the County Executive Committee Member (CECM) or the Chief Officer had a professional background in medical or health care fields among other HR issues that were raised.

In the statement, the committee should-

disciplinary procedures at the Vihiga County Referral Hospital from the year 2022 to date and table a report outlining the affected workers.

unprocedural dismissal of such health workers in the county, ascertaining the number of staff that have been punished without the involvement of the county public service board.

stoppage of salary, interdiction, suspension and dismissals of the said health workers stating why the County Public Service Board was not involved in the said disciplinary matters.

intervene and reverse cases of unprocedural disciplinary proceedings against the healthcare workers and to ensure that service delivery to the people of Vihiga is not impacted negatively.

between the Senate Standing Committee on Health and the Vihiga County Government regarding the running of the health function in the county during the visit of the Committee to the county last year.

Service Board takes their mandate and responsibilities seriously and where they fall short be held accountable.

I thank you.

Services, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir---

Sen. Ogola, are you holding brief for Sen., Mumma?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

That is what you need to start with. Proceed.

Services, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of Sen. Catherine Mumma, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Education regarding the plans by the Nairobi City County Government and the Ministry of Education to facilitate equitable access to public vocational and technical education and training for the youth in informal settlements in Nairobi.

In the statement, the committee should-

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and group, I call you to order. Proceed, Sen. Ogola.

Services, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a second statement by Sen. Mumma. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Education regarding the efforts of both the national Government and the Nairobi City County government to facilitate equal access to public education for children in informal settlements in Nairobi.

In the statement, the committee should-

Statement pursuant to Standing Order No.57 (1) , the Senate Majority Leader, proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.57 (1) to hereby present the business of the Senate for the week commencing Tuesday, 14th May, 2024.

During the sitting of the Senate held on Thursday, 2nd May, 2024, the Senate considered and passed two Bills at the Committee of the Whole stage namely; the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bills No.14 of 2024) and the County Governments (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No. 25 of 2023) . These Bills have since been referred to the National Assembly for consideration.

There are a number of Motions that have been filed by various Senators, which are yet to be concluded. It goes without saying that the movers of the said business should be present in the Chamber to prosecute the same as scheduled in the Order Paper of the day.

Forty seven Bills are pending conclusion in the Senate. Forty three of these Bills are at the Second Reading Stage, while four are at the Committee of the Whole stage. Eighteen Motions are pending conclusion, 18 Petitions are due for reporting by the respective Standing Committees, while 343 Statements are pending before the respective Standing Committees.

The Senate Business Committee will meet on Tuesday, 14th May, 2024 to consider the business for the week. The tentative business for Tuesday will include business not concluded from today’s Order Paper as well as the business indicated in the Notice Paper. This business will include-

Services, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Education regarding the welfare of Early Childhood Development Education (ECDE) Teachers in West Pokot County.

In the statement, the committee should-

Statement pursuant to Standing Order No.57 (1) , the Senate Majority Leader, proceed.

Services, Senate. Kenya inazipa Serikali za Kaunti jukumu la kuendeleza, kuanzisha, kusimamia na kudumisha vifaa vya michezo na kitamaduni ambavyo ni pamoja na viwanja, viwanja vya michezo, vituo vya kitamaduni, na miundombinu mingine inayohusiana;

IKIKUMBUKWA KUWA ukanda mzima wa Pwani Nchini hauna uwanja wa kisasa uliojengwa kwa viwango vya kimataifa, hivyo kuwanyima wananchi manufaa yanayotokana na viwanja na vifaa vya michezo;

WASIWASI kwamba ujenzi wa uwanja wa michezo wa Manispaa ya Mombasa umekumbwa na ucheleweshaji na vikwazo tangu kuanzishwa kwa mradi huo mwaka wa 2019 kutokana na matatizo ya kifedha, ambayo yamesitishwa na kunyima jamii eneo hilo uwanja unaohitajika sana;

KWA HIVYO SASA Bunge la Seneti linaazimia kwamba Hazina ya Kitaifa ya Wizara ya Masuala ya Vijana, Uchumi Ubunifu na Michezo itengee Serikali ya Kaunti ya Mombasa ruzuku ya masharti ya Shilingi bilioni 1.7 kwa ajili ya kukamilisha ujenzi wa Uwanja wa Manispaa ya Mombasa. Sasa Maseneta mnaweza kupiga kura kwa kubonyeza Ndio, La ama ususie kupiga kura.

Next Order, Clerk.

Services, Senate.

Sen. Olekina and the Majority Leader, just approach the Chair please.

NOW THEREFORE, the Senate-

Services, Senate. Sen. Methu, Kaunti ya Nyandarua; Sen. Mungatana, MGH, Kaunti ya Tana River; Sen. Munyi Mundigi, Kaunti ya Embu; Sen. Murgor, Kaunti ya West Pokot; Sen. Ogola, Kaunti ya Homa Bay; Sen. Olekina, Kaunti ya Narok; Sen. Omogeni, Kaunti ya Nyamira; Sen. Osotsi, Kaunti ya Vihiga; Sen. Tobiko, Kaunti ya Kajiado; Sen. Sifuna, Kaunti ya Mji wa Nairobi; na, Sen. Wambua, Kaunti ya Kitui.

NDIO: 27 LA: Haikupata Kura. WALIOSUSIA: Haikupata Kura.

Services, Senate.

NOW THEREFORE, the Senate-

We shall proceed to vote on the Motion as amended. Therefore, I am going to put the Question.

Sen. Murgor and Sen. Tobiko proceed to the Dispatch box and cast your vote.

Services, Senate.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division on the Motion as amended are as follows-

We shall proceed to vote on the Motion as amended. Therefore, I am going to put the Question.

Services, Senate.

FURTHER CONCERNED that most of the service providers in the counties are battling court cases lodged against them by their financiers and suppliers while others are languishing in poverty caused by the increased cost of living, with increased mental health disease incidences and others dying as a result of the effects of colossal amounts of debt owed to them by county governments;

NOW THEREFORE, the Senate-

amounting to less than Kshs1 billion by the end of this financial year and those above Kshs1 billion by the end of the financial year 2024/2025; and,

Management (County Governments) Regulations, 2015, County Governments prepare and submit to the Controller of Budget a payment plan prioritizing payment of pending bills as a first charge on the County Revenue Fund failure to which the subsequent quotas budget releases will not be done;

ii. The Controller of Budget takes into consideration the efforts made by a county government to clear inherited pending bills when approving exchequer releases

iii. County Governments shall only pay pending Bills contained in their respective procurement plans, pursuant to Regulation 50(2) & (3) of the Public Finance Management (County Governments) Regulations;

iv. Supplementary budgets for county governments are prepared in the 3rd Quarter to curb instances of arbitrary re-allocations out of the approved budget estimates; and

provide a budget for completion of all existing projects, and that initiation of new projects to cease until completion of the existing projects;

vi. County Governments shall conduct public participation while formulating supplementary budgets, failure to which the Controller of Budget (CoB) shall not approve the supplementary budgets.

Hon. Senators, the next Order is the Committee of the Whole. Therefore, we still need you to stay in the Chamber.

Serjeant-at-Arms, you may undraw the bar and open the doors.

Services, Senate.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division on the Motion as amended are as follows-

Services, Senate. Clause 14

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. Abdul Haji): Amendment to be moved by the Chairperson.

Services, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 12 of the Bill be amended in–

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT clause 30 of the Bill be amended by deleting-

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT clause 32 of the Bill be amended—

Amendment to be moved by the Chairperson.

Services, Senate.

shall, within sixty (60) sitting days of submission under

subsection (6), by resolution approve or reject the draft valuation roll or draft supplementary valuation roll.

subsection (7), the draft valuation roll or draft supplementary valuation roll shall be deemed to have been approved.

(Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. Abdul Haji): Division will be at the end. Clause 33

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 34 of the Bill be amended in subclause

(6)

by deleting the word ‘may’ appearing immediately after the words ‘a county government’ and inserting therefor the word “shall”.

The Temporary Chairperson

: Division will be at the end. Clauses 35-45

The Temporary Chairperson

: Division will be at the end. Clauses 46-55

The Temporary Chairperson

: Division will be at the end.

Services, Senate. Clause 56

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. Abdul Haji): Sen. Cherarkey, what is your comment?

Chairperson, you can move the amendment.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move - THAT clause 56 of the Bill be amended in –

Amendment to be moved by the Chairperson.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 29 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by deleting the word ‘five’ appearing immediately after the words ‘undertaken in every’ and inserting therefor the word ‘ten’. (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Thank you, Sen. Cherarkey. The issue of the asset register is being addressed by the amendment by Sen. Sifuna. When we reach Clause 24A, you can pay attention to that.

Division will be at the end. Clause 57

Division will be at the end.

Amendment to be moved by the Chairperson.

Services, Senate.

Sen. Sifuna, please, approach the Table.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. I beg to move- THAT the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clauses immediately after clause 24— Chief Government Valuer.

24A. (1) There shall be a Chief Government Valuer who shall be the principal advisor to the National Government and county governments on all matters relating to valuation.

Services, Senate.shall, within sixty (60) sitting days of submission undersubsection (6), by resolution approve or reject the draft valuation roll or draft supplementary valuation roll.subsection (7), the draft valuation roll or draft supplementary valuation roll shall be deemed to have been approved.(Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Division will be at the end.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 34 of the Bill be amended in subclause (6) by deleting the word ‘may’ appearing immediately after the words ‘a county government’ and inserting therefor the word “shall”. (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move, that the Bill be amended by inserting the following New Clause- Qualification

of the Chief Government Valuer.

24B. (1) A person is qualified for appointment as the Chief Government Valuer if that person—

Senate Majority Whip.

Division will be at the end. Clauses 46-55 (Question, that Clause 46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54 and 55 be part of the Bill proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Sen. Sifuna, you may proceed.

Services, Senate. Clause 56The Temporary Chairperson (

Services, Senate.

It is an office akin to the Auditor-General. However, within that office, they can employ other officers to help that officer. In my view, the holder of the principal office should be someone who has the sort of experience that would accord with the office that they hold.

Sen. Cherarkey, what is your comment?Chairperson, you can move the amendment.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move - THAT clause 56 of the Bill be amended in –

Sen. Cherarkey, go ahead.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, two quick things. The first one, I agree that it will be mandatory to consult the Council of Governors (CoG) and that is why under Article 96, we are protectors of the devolution.

Secondly, I would like the Mover to guide us, but most of the counties have incomplete asset registers and when you are doing the valuation roll, you need a complete asset register, so that it can be easy for any county government or any entity.

While I agree with the Mover of the amendment, Sen. Methu, that technology is important, but after the passage of this Bill, we will need to write to the Intergovernmental Relations Technical Committee (IGRTC) to ensure that every county has a complete asset register to allow the valuation roll to be done easily.

I am tying up with Clause 32 and 56. I thank you, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir.

Thank you, Sen. Cherarkey. The issue of the asset register is being addressed by the amendment by Sen. Sifuna. When we reach Clause 24A, you can pay attention to that.

Division will be at the end. Clause 57

Division will be at the end.

Services, Senate.

Sen. Sifuna, please, approach the Table.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. I beg to move- THAT the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clauses immediately after clause 24— Chief Government Valuer.

24A. (1) There shall be a Chief Government Valuer who shall be the principal advisor to the National Government and county governments on all matters relating to valuation.

Sen. Cherarkey, any comments?

Mr. Temporary Chairman Sir, Sen. Sifuna’s amendment, with the guidance of the Senate Majority Leader, is that the Chief Government Valuer will be a link. This is because it affects the advisor of both county and national governments.

With this description, it will be now easy to advise county and national governments to have a complete asset register to allow the completion of the valuation roll. When they have complete asset registers, then it will be easy to quantify.

I agree with the Chief Government Valuer and this is a straightforward amendment. It captures the aspirations and imaginations ahead of the Bill.

Services, Senate.

Services, Senate. New Clause 24B

Services, Senate. First Schedule, Second Schedule, Third Schedule and Fourth Schedule

(Question, that the First Schedule, Second Schedule, Third Schedule and Fourth Schedule be part of the Bill proposed) Division will be at the end. Clause 2

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. Abdul Haji): Hon. Senators, we have two amendments on Clause 2; one by the Chairperson and another one by Sen. Sifuna. The two amendments do not seem to clash. Therefore, we will have division for both.

Proceed, Chairperson of the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources.

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by deleting –

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by deleting the definition of ‘Chief Government Valuer’ and inserting the following new definition— “Chief Government Valuer” means a valuer appointed under Section 24A

The Temporary Chairperson

: Division will be at the end. The Title and Clause 1

Sen. Sifuna, you may proceed.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, the anticipation was that if you look at the role of the Chief Government Valuer under New Clause 24A, he or she will be the principal advisor to the national Government and county governments on all matters relating to valuation.

Services, Senate.

It is an office akin to the Auditor-General. However, within that office, they can employ other officers to help that officer. In my view, the holder of the principal office should be someone who has the sort of experience that would accord with the office that they hold.

Sen. Kisang’.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I know this is a House of record, rules and laws. However, in most of the laws we have passed in the past, we put a minimum age of 10 years’ experience. I believe 15 years is on the higher side.

By the time you complete university, you are around 25 years. You will look for employment in another three or four years. Instead of putting 15 years, a Masters qualification could be put as an additional advantage.

Thank you. Sen. Methu.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, besides what the Senator for Nairobi has said on being the principal advisor, in the rank of valuers, the Chief Government Valuer would be at the pinnacle.

I want us to look at the hierarchy of most of the positions that we have. When the Senate Majority Whip speaks of a judge, then in this case, the Chief Government Valuer will occupy almost the same position as that of the Chief Justice because he will be the topmost in terms of the ranking. If you put 15 years, this will be a person that will have grown in the ranks of land valuation to the highest level.

There is a second thing that Sen. Sifuna has not mentioned. All the valuation rolls that will be prepared by all the county governments will have to get a nod from the Chief Government Valuer. Therefore, this is a person who will be at the level of the Auditor- General or the Chief Justice. I agree then that 15 years is requisite experience for a person to occupy that high position of a Chief Government Valuer.

Sen. Beatrice Ogola.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I just wanted to re-emphasise what Sen. Methu has said. We should maintain the qualifications of the Chief Government Valuer with experience of 15 years because these are professional lines. As a country, we want to encourage people who will oversee the valuation process having worked through the ranks in the valuation profession.

In our systems, sometimes we had people who would scale the heights from District Officers (DOs) as they were in the former Constitution. They became District Commissioners (DCs) , Provincial Commissioners (PCs) and then move to the national level. It was not for nothing that they scaled those heights. It was because they would have accumulated experience above everybody else to oversee those offices. I support this because we must protect and preserve certain professions.

I have worked in the county. Governors come in with their people who do not even have backgrounds in whatever they are hired to do. However, since they want them to oversee certain departments like procurement, somebody can even take a transport officer and make them director of procurement. It is because they want them to do what they want. Such people have been the reason there is no professionalism in certain departments.

Services, Senate.Therefore, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I support that the Chief Government Valuer must have 15 years’ experience for the good of this country and the profession.The Temporary Chairperson (

Proceed, Sen. Gloria Orwoba.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I am torn between supporting the 15 years’ experience and the suggested 10 years by the Whip. I want to highlight that we are in the era of the Kenya National Qualifications Authority (KNQA) , a state agency under the Constitution of Kenya that recognises prior learning. When we talk about 15 years’ experience, I want to believe that they mean 15 years’ experience devoid of the normal papers such as degrees. Maybe that needs to be defined further. If we go by what has been happening before all this--- I know some sections of the Constitution have been declared unconstitutional because of discrimination of the youth. I would like some clarity. Do they mean 15 years after graduation from a formal institution or in relevance to the recognition of prior learning according to the KNQA? If that is the case, then I support the 15 years? My issue is locking out the youth. We have the standard time. You can finish High School at a certain age, then do your diploma or degree. However, some people finish high school and go directly to the skills or trades they are involved in without the formal paperwork. That is what the Constitution of Kenya, under KNQA, recognises and ascertains. The Temporary Chairperson (

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee reports to the Senate its consideration of the National Rating Bill (National Assembly Bill No.55 of 2022) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Proceed, Sen. Mungatana.

Services, Senate.

Chairperson, kindly report to the House consideration of the Bill.

Services, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Clause immediately after clause 30— Supplementary valuation roll

30A. (1) The county government shall, in preparing a supplementary valuation roll, rely on data or information that was used in the preparation of the valuation roll to assign values to be adopted on the properties contained in a supplementary valuation roll.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the National Rating Bill (National Assembly Bill No.55 of 2022) be now read a Third Time.

I request the Senator for Kisumu County to second.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I second.

Hon. Senators, we have two amendments on Clause 2; one by the Chairperson and another one by Sen. Sifuna. The two amendments do not seem to clash. Therefore, we will have division for both.Proceed, Chairperson of the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources.

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by deleting –

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by deleting the definition of ‘Chief Government Valuer’ and inserting the following new definition— “Chief Government Valuer” means a valuer appointed under Section 24A (Question of the further amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Division will be at the end. The Title and Clause 1 (Question, that the Title and Clause 1 be part of the Bill, proposed)

Hon. Senators, log out and log into the system. Kindly start the voting.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division for Third Reading are as follows -

Hon. Senators, we proceed to the third vote.(Question that Clauses 3 to 12 as amended, 13, 14 as amended, 15 to 20 as amended, 21 to 29 as amended, 30 as amended, 31, 32 as amended, 33,34 as amended, 35 to 56 as amended, 57, New Clause 24A, New Clause 24B and New Clause 30A, the First Schedule, Second Schedule, Third Schedule, and fourth Schedule, Clause 2 as amended, the title and Clause 1 be part of the Bill put and the Senate proceeded to voteby county delegations.) Senators, start voting.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:

Services, Senate.

The “Ayes” have it.

Services, Senate.

Madam Temporary Speaker, on many occasions I have said that if the relation was to be kept as is the case right now, where Speakers of both Houses consult and agree prior to the publication of any Bill on both Houses, although it is not the ideal situation because there have been occasional squabbles that a certain Bill has not gone for concurrence from either House, but, that is what we seek from this Bill.

Considering we are doing this for posterity, we decided to draft and put this in a Bill, so that we document our relations, we agree and move forward. Something controversial I might say about this Bill is that the Bill as it is, is not the position of the Senate and this I must make clear.

It is upon our Members of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights (JLAC), including yours truly, to give perspective to this Bill. However, many times we have appeared before the judges of the Supreme Court, the highest court of the land, and they have asked our advocates on many occasions if it is possible for both Houses to agree. At times we file a consent and agree on certain issues and then, midway, positions change depending on convenience and many other things because of politics, institutional ego to protect and personality issues involved.

We felt that we better put this in law, so that nobody is ever in doubt on the procedure to follow. There are many Bills that have been challenged on account of concurrence alone. Today, many institutions are hamstrung on their operations because of this dispute between us and the National Assembly.

When we sat down, we decided that it will be better for us to put this into law and seek an agreement that will guide future relations for posterity. In another 20, 30 or 50 years from now when none of us will be within the precincts of Parliament, those who will be there will celebrate the good wisdom that this House guided regarding this issue.

I want to go on record as I move this Bill that it is the National Assembly’s perspective on how to carry out bicameral relations. I look forward to having the final report of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights on this topic even as we debate it. In fact, this is an occasion of the many that I have spoken on the need for us to bring this matter to a close. That is, whether it is proper for Members to debate before or after the report. I have said both schools of thought are right. This is one of the occasions where I feel Members of that committee need to know the input of the users of that particular law. I can see quite a number of them in the House this evening as I move this Bill. The users of this law is we as Parliament.

I have always argued the case that nothing bars us from debating any Bill before a committee prepares and presents its report to the House. Sometimes even Members of Parliament (MPs) need to give our stakeholders views in our committees. Sometimes there is no better avenue than the Floor of the House. This is not to say that the route we have used on many Bills, which is to debate after a committee has tabled its report, is wrong. The experts of legislative processes, like Director Ruge here, can inform this debate even better because of their experience.

I said there is no better time to debate a Bill such as this than right now before the committee considers the views of the users. There are no other users, but us MPs. We should listen to what every Member of this House wants in a bicameral relation between

Services, Senate. Clause 24A, New Clause 24B, New Clause 30A, First Schedule, Second Schedule, Third Schedule, Fourth Schedule, Clause 2(as amended), The Title and Clause 1 be part of the

Bill put, and the Senate proceeded to vote by County Delegations) AYES: Sen. Abass Sheikh Mohamed, Wajir County; Sen. Abdul Haji, Garissa County; Sen. Cherarkey, Nandi County; Sen. Cheruiyot, Kericho County; Sen. Chute, Marsabit County; Sen. Faki, Mombasa County; Sen. Githuku, Lamu County; Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, Kakamega County; Sen. Kinyua, Laikipia County; Sen. Kisang, Elgeyo Marakwet County; Sen. (Dr.) Lelegwe Ltumbesi, Samburu County; Sen. Maanzo, Makueni County; Sen. Madzayo, Kilifi County; Sen. Mariam Omar, Mandera County; Sen. Methu, Nyandarua County; Sen. Mungatana, MGH, Tana River County; Sen. Munyi Mundigi, Embu County; Sen. Murgor, West Pokot County; Sen. Ogola, Homa Bay County; Sen. Olekina, Narok County; Sen. Sifuna, Nairobi City County; Sen. Thang’wa, Kiambu County; Sen. Tobiko, Kajiado County; Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda Odhiambo, SC Kisumu County; Sen. Wamatinga, Nyeri County; Sen. Wambua, Kitui County.

Result for all Clauses are as follows-

Thank you, Senate Majority Leader.

Proceed, Sen. Mungatana.

Services, Senate.

Chairperson, kindly report to the House consideration of the Bill.

Services, Senate. giving all these details? It is for those Senators who are listening to me, to appreciate that there is a legal lacuna that we need to fix in as far as the relationship between the National Assembly and the Senate is concerned. This must be fixed today, not tomorrow, because we have a lot of pending business between the two Houses and many times we have different viewpoints on the same issues.

The National Assembly, in my opinion, and with a lot of respect, for example, does not go beyond the moment they see, think or feel that this is a Money Bill. They are sort of held there and they decide to reject a Bill when in fact, they come from counties and those Bills assist their counties.

It is critical on my part to second this Bill. I urge Senators to speak to this Bill. I fully agree with the fact that the input of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights (JLAC) is truly required in this matter. I hope the Chairperson of the JLAC will have earlier opportunities to speak to this Bill, so that Members who are going to follow, can hear and see the thinking behind what we want as a Senate. Possibly at the earliest opportunity, let the report of JLAC be tabled, because we would want this debate to be well-informed and well-guided so that we can get the kind of results that we require.

I have a lot to say, but I do not want us to pass the time so I will stop there. I beg to second.

I can see the Chairperson of the JLAC is here.

Proceed, Sen. Methu.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I have been struggling to check the time. Yesterday we had an issue with the various clocks in the House. They were reading different scripts and it was raised as a point of order and directions were given by the Chair then that the clock on my left, right and the one directly against the Chair should be in sync.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I believe there must have been a missing link in terms of administration. Indeed, that is what misguided Sen. Mungatana as he was struggling to check on the time. However, with that in mind, I believe that ---

Senator, if I can give a guide on that clock, in my view, I do notice that is a valid concern. The three clocks are reading differently. It is already 6.30 p.m. on the right-hand side, which is not the case for the clock in the middle aisle and on the Minority side. It is only on the Majority side that it is

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I second.

Hon. Senators, we will now go for Division.

Serjeant-at-Arms, ring the Bell for five minutes.

Serjeant-At-Arms you can stop the bell.

Clerk do we have quorum?

Kindly draw the bars and close the doors. .

Services, Senate.

(Question put)

Hon. Senators, log out and log into the system. Kindly start the voting.

Services, Senate.

Services, Senate.

Hon. Senators, I will reorganize the Order Paper. We are done with Order No. 11. We will therefore go to Order No. 20.

Clerk, you can call it out?

The Senate Majority Leader?

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to move that the Houses of Parliament (Bicameral Relations) Bill, 2023 be now a Second Time.

This is a very important Bill whose history we all know. Sometimes, around the year 2018, the Senate did something quite historic. The entire House folded and we walked hand-in-hand from these Chambers of Parliament, all the way to Milimani High Court. We had tried every known route of diplomacy to set normal relations between us and the National Assembly.

For various reasons that are well known and documented, both within and without the precincts of Parliament, we were unsuccessful. We thought that the best thing to do is to seek justice in the courts of law. Therefore, led by the then Speaker, Hon. Lusaka and now the Governor of Bungoma County, all the 67 delegations that day marched to the Milimani High Court and presented our Petition.

Madam Temporary Speaker, since then, we have had our victories and losses. While the judges of the High Court agreed with us, there were certain aspects of what we felt that they needed to set aside on procedures of Parliament and what is done. In the interpretation of Article 110 and the many disputes we have between us and the National Assembly, there have since been various positions from the Supreme Court, the Court of Appeal and to the High Court.

Basically, every level of the Judicial authorities of this country have had a say on this thorny and sticky issue. Unfortunately, there is lack of symphony in the guidance they have given to this House. While one court says this, the other holds a different view. One can see that this is something that will take us to reason together as the Houses of Parliament because we are the ones who are the users of this Clause of the Constitution and are better placed to understand how best we can work.

Services, Senate.

Madam Temporary Speaker, on many occasions I have said that if the relation was to be kept as is the case right now, where Speakers of both Houses consult and agree prior to the publication of any Bill on both Houses, although it is not the ideal situation because there have been occasional squabbles that a certain Bill has not gone for concurrence from either House, but, that is what we seek from this Bill.

Considering we are doing this for posterity, we decided to draft and put this in a Bill, so that we document our relations, we agree and move forward. Something controversial I might say about this Bill is that the Bill as it is, is not the position of the Senate and this I must make clear.

It is upon our Members of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights (JLAC), including yours truly, to give perspective to this Bill. However, many times we have appeared before the judges of the Supreme Court, the highest court of the land, and they have asked our advocates on many occasions if it is possible for both Houses to agree. At times we file a consent and agree on certain issues and then, midway, positions change depending on convenience and many other things because of politics, institutional ego to protect and personality issues involved.

We felt that we better put this in law, so that nobody is ever in doubt on the procedure to follow. There are many Bills that have been challenged on account of concurrence alone. Today, many institutions are hamstrung on their operations because of this dispute between us and the National Assembly.

When we sat down, we decided that it will be better for us to put this into law and seek an agreement that will guide future relations for posterity. In another 20, 30 or 50 years from now when none of us will be within the precincts of Parliament, those who will be there will celebrate the good wisdom that this House guided regarding this issue.

I want to go on record as I move this Bill that it is the National Assembly’s perspective on how to carry out bicameral relations. I look forward to having the final report of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights on this topic even as we debate it. In fact, this is an occasion of the many that I have spoken on the need for us to bring this matter to a close. That is, whether it is proper for Members to debate before or after the report. I have said both schools of thought are right. This is one of the occasions where I feel Members of that committee need to know the input of the users of that particular law. I can see quite a number of them in the House this evening as I move this Bill. The users of this law is we as Parliament.

I have always argued the case that nothing bars us from debating any Bill before a committee prepares and presents its report to the House. Sometimes even Members of Parliament (MPs) need to give our stakeholders views in our committees. Sometimes there is no better avenue than the Floor of the House. This is not to say that the route we have used on many Bills, which is to debate after a committee has tabled its report, is wrong. The experts of legislative processes, like Director Ruge here, can inform this debate even better because of their experience.

I said there is no better time to debate a Bill such as this than right now before the committee considers the views of the users. There are no other users, but us MPs. We should listen to what every Member of this House wants in a bicameral relation between

Services, Senate.

Services, Senate.

There are certain Bills which they hold the view that this is not even something for debate. They have listed a number of them including the annual County Allocation of Revenue Bill, which is something we do on both Houses, the Appropriation Bill, which is done in the National Assembly, the Finance Bill, any Bill that provides for taxation and revenue-raising powers of the national Government, and a Bill concerning county governments. Therefore, that is something, which I will request our Members of Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights Committee to guide us appropriately, even as we make that decision.

Clause 9 guides on after the resolution of the question has been arrived at. and it reads-

“Whenever a Speaker of the second House, agrees with this question raised as contemplated under Section 8.2, the Speaker shall prepare and transmit a certificate of joint resolution in duplicate for endorsement by the Speaker of the originating House.’’

Remember, I have explained the history of how the National Assembly views this issue of the resolution of the question of whether it concerns or does not concern counties. That is why it is drafted as it is. Peg somewhere at the back of your mind what the views of the Senate are, and that is well known.

Then, finally, it is issues such as the money Bill in accordance with Article 109

on Article 109(5) have evolved as opposed to what I used to see in my earlier days in this House. If you raise any Bill and they feel that for whatever reason--- You imagine how difficult it is to have a Bill or a law that does not cost a charge to the exchequer. It is hard to imagine that you can come up with a law which, for one reason or the other, has absolutely no charge and responsibility to the Government.

So long as there is even the slightest imagination that somehow this Bill will create a charge to the exchequer then it was declared a money Bill and at that particular time the view was that money Bills could only commence in the National Assembly.

Therefore, as a Member of the Senate, even if you tried to think of whatever legislation, you would not succeed or there are certain provisions of your Bill, though close to you, though consequential, you had to drop for that Bill to pass. It happened to me a couple of times while considering certain Bills. That has since evolved and they are a bit more accommodating in their consideration. Therefore, I must thank the Parliamentary Budget office for that view.

Section 12 speaks on that particular Bill. I expect that the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs will provide the cover. We know it is a constitutional doctrine that a money Bill can only be introduced in the National Assembly in accordance with Article

determination of what a money Bill is, that the fight is in and that is where we depend on our Members of the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs to provide clarity on that particular issue.

Services, Senate.

It is good that as I say this, I can see the chairperson of the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs is in the House with us this evening. Section 13 speaks on something that we have since seen, a practice that is properly evolving. We have had this challenge of a Member saying: “After my Bill was moved it went and gathered dust in the other House.” It speaks to the issue of the adoption of Bills where when you sponsor a Bill, you have to look for a co-sponsor in the other House; a practice that has already been established. However, part of the reason we are doing this law is so that we put what is in practice to be in law because we do not want to rely on just a gentlemen's understanding.

Part 4 of the Bill is just about the procedure, which is the conduct of joint proceedings and committees, that if you pass an ordinary Bill and there is one reason or the other, there is need to consider it jointly, between the Houses and how to resolve that particular committee. That is simply procedure, but we may seek further ways of advancing it better.

That is basically what this Bill is about. It is fairly straightforward, but as I have mentioned this particular Bill and as I move it, I am fully aware that this is the National Assembly's version of how to run a bicameral relationship.

A lot of the work has to be done by our Members of the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs Committee. Allow me to repeat for emphasis’s sake, so that we do justice to ourselves as a House, pay keen attention and give yourselves sufficient time, much as there is urgency in concluding this Bill.

We have been granted 90 days by the Supreme Court to try and hammer an agreement of some sort, but more than half of that period has lapsed. I am not very certain about the number of days left. However, its urgency does not mean you compromise the standing of the Senate. I expect that our Members of the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs will bring us consequential amendments, our view and capture it in law. However, there were those who held the view that: “No, no, that is a flawed Bill; you should not even move it, Senate Majority Leader.” However, I have explained time and again that there is nothing in a Bill that you cannot change. It is only those who do not understand legislative procedures who make such vain arguments. You can change everything in a Bill including even the title if you do not like what it is called and it is allowed. We have voted here many times. It is only that maybe sometimes people do not follow and say that the title of the Bill be changed to this. I have seen that happen.

I expect serious changes to this Bill from the JLAC, so that immediately after that we can reconvene and reach a middle ground, but then we will have succeeded in doing something for posterity, so that this business of very good legislation, well thought-out, being struck down by the courts on very simple arguments, such as the fact that it was not properly considered by this or the other House, becomes a thing of the past.

With those very many remarks, I beg to move and request the Senator for Tana River, Sen. Danson Buya Mungatana, to second.

I thank you.

Thank you, Senate Majority Leader.

Proceed, Sen. Mungatana.

Services, Senate.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I also want to thank the Senate Majority Leader because he moved this Bill in a very able manner.

I am currently sitting in a Mediation Committee. About two weeks ago, the Speaker of the National Assembly, the Hon. Moses Wetangula, announced that two Bills had been rejected in Second Reading in the National Assembly. One was a Land amendment Bill and another was the Natural Resources Benefit Sharing Bill, which was a Bill that I had sponsored.

So, I was named among the Senators who would be in the Mediation Committee with the National Assembly. This is my second time in a mediation arrangement with the National Assembly, so I will speak from experience.

The first experience we had was when there was a joint attempt by the National Assembly and the Senate to bring constitutional Bills. This attempt did not go far. There was a committee chairperson named from the National Assembly side and a committee chairperson named from this side. This came as a result of Kamukunjis that were trying to find a way forward on some difficult questions in the Constitution.

We only had two meetings and that Committee dissipated. The reason why that Committee was not successful was because the law that guides bicameral relations was nonexistent at that time. Even these mediation committees that we have try to make sense of the provisions in the Constitution.

As we all know, the Constitution gives wide proclamations. For those proclamations to be effective, there must be legislation that comes to the nitty gritty. When you look at the provisions as they stand now, a Bill may be rejected, or some sections of it may be rejected by the National Assembly and then a mediation committee is appointed. This is not in law. It is just what has been agreed upon as a procedure that is supposed to work between the National Assembly and the Senate. When a mediation committee meets, there are supposed to be discussions and negotiations on the contentious sections of the Bills that have issues.

When those clauses are agreed upon, a mediated version of the Bill is supposed to be presented in both the National Assembly and the Senate. From what we learnt and my experience, we are supposed to do a Motion attaching the mediated or agreed version on both sides. If we approve that mediated version and they approve it, it skips the other important stages like the Committee stage and the Third Reading. That Bill goes straight for assent. The timelines are also limited.

When you look at it, there is a problem in terms of the procedure and the detail of the procedure that is supposed to guide the relations between ourselves and the other House.

Practical difficulties also arise. For example, the Bill is supposed to go for mediation and a timeline is set. When does that timeline start running? It is when both Houses Mediation Committee sits. That is when the time for 90 days is supposed to run.

Madam Temporary Speaker, practically speaking, right now the other House has gone on recess. We are going to be in session until somewhere around 30th May, 2024. Therefore, when we will be going on recess, the other House will be resuming. We are talking of almost 60 days going without the Mediation Committee sitting. Why am I

Services, Senate. giving all these details? It is for those Senators who are listening to me, to appreciate that there is a legal lacuna that we need to fix in as far as the relationship between the National Assembly and the Senate is concerned. This must be fixed today, not tomorrow, because we have a lot of pending business between the two Houses and many times we have different viewpoints on the same issues.

The National Assembly, in my opinion, and with a lot of respect, for example, does not go beyond the moment they see, think or feel that this is a Money Bill. They are sort of held there and they decide to reject a Bill when in fact, they come from counties and those Bills assist their counties.

It is critical on my part to second this Bill. I urge Senators to speak to this Bill. I fully agree with the fact that the input of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights (JLAC) is truly required in this matter. I hope the Chairperson of the JLAC will have earlier opportunities to speak to this Bill, so that Members who are going to follow, can hear and see the thinking behind what we want as a Senate. Possibly at the earliest opportunity, let the report of JLAC be tabled, because we would want this debate to be well-informed and well-guided so that we can get the kind of results that we require.

I have a lot to say, but I do not want us to pass the time so I will stop there. I beg to second.

I can see the Chairperson of the JLAC is here.

Proceed, Sen. Methu.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I have been struggling to check the time. Yesterday we had an issue with the various clocks in the House. They were reading different scripts and it was raised as a point of order and directions were given by the Chair then that the clock on my left, right and the one directly against the Chair should be in sync.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I believe there must have been a missing link in terms of administration. Indeed, that is what misguided Sen. Mungatana as he was struggling to check on the time. However, with that in mind, I believe that ---

Senator, if I can give a guide on that clock, in my view, I do notice that is a valid concern. The three clocks are reading differently. It is already 6.30 p.m. on the right-hand side, which is not the case for the clock in the middle aisle and on the Minority side. It is only on the Majority side that it is

Services, Senate.

Services, Senate.

Services, Senate.

Services, Senate.

Hon Senators, it is now 6.30