Thursday, 9th May, 2024

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, what is your point of order?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise under the Constitution of Kenya to bring to your attention the fact that one of the premier institutions in Kenya, Parliament, is in darkness. We do not know what is happening with Kenya Power (KP) and if there is something wrong with them.

We also do not understand how this institution cannot have a working generator. We have to be assured that before we proceed, that this is not an act of sabotage or Parliament is under threat.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I stand in full support and in solidarity with the sentiments expressed by the Senator for Kakamega. It is literally a dark day in this Parliament and the country. It is unfortunate that on a day like this when the Senator for Kitui and the Deputy Minority Leader has received a delegation from his office in Kitui, there is pitch darkness in the House.

I cannot see, Sen. Wambua.

Sen. Sifuna has a problem seeing me. They can only hear, but not see me because I am dark. Is it in order that this sitting must continue this way? My appeal to you is that you adjourn this House until we get confirmation from the management of this House that we are going to get sufficient light, so that Senators can also see the Senator for Kitui as he addresses the House.

I submit.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo): Bw. Spika wa Muda, hili ni jambo la aibu sana katika taifa kwa sababu Bunge haliwezikuwa---

Order, Senator for Elgeyo- Marakwet.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Madzayo) : Bw. Spika wa Muda, hili ni jambo la aibu sana kutendeka katika Bunge la kitaifa. Hili ni Bunge linalotakikana kuheshimiwa. Hii ni aibu kubwa. Tangu nije hapa kuanzia 2013, hii ni mara ya kwanza kuona kitendo kama hiki kikitendeka ndani ya Bunge hili.

Tungependa kujua kwa nini hakuna umeme katika Seneti. Ningependa Kenya Power itueleze kwa nini Bunge halina stima hadi saa hii. Tungependa kujua kama hatujalipa bili ya stima. Hiyo itakukwa aibu kubwa kwa Serikali.

Bw. Spika wa Muda, tunataka kuwe na umeme hapa, la sivyo uahirishe kikao hiki kwa muda fulani.

Order, Senator for Elgeyo- Marakwet. The Senate Minority Leader (

Order, Senators!

Order, Senators!

Hon. Senators, welcome back from that very brief suspension that was due to factors that were truly beyond our control.

Clerk, you may proceed to call the next order. The Chairperson, Standing Committee on Health?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Senate Majority Leader, I beg to lay the following Papers on the table of the Senate today, 9th May 2024-

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Narok Water and Sewerage Services Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Nolturesh Loitokitok Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Imetha Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Municipality of Kapenguria the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Homa Bay County Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Sibo Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Trans Nzoia County Executive Car Loan and Mortgage Scheme Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of the County Government of Trans Nzoia County Revenue Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of the County Government of Trans Nzoia County Revenue Fund.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of the County Government of Trans Nzoia Receiver of Revenue, Revenue Statements.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Trans Nzoia County Youth and Women Development Fund.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Nakuru County Executive Mortgage Scheme Fund.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Eldama Ravine Water and Sewerage Company Limited.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Kirandich Water Company Limited.

Report of the Bomet County Assembly Select Committee on Public Investment and Accounts on Inquiry into the Operations and Performance of the Bomet Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2021.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay.

Proceed, Chairperson Standing Committee on Health. Sen. Mariam, are you coming to lay the Paper on behalf of the Health Committee

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Senate Majority Leader, I beg to lay the following Papers on the table of the Senate today, 9th May 2024-

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Narok Water and Sewerage Services Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Nolturesh Loitokitok Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Imetha Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Municipality of Kapenguria the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Homa Bay County Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Sibo Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Trans Nzoia County Executive Car Loan and Mortgage Scheme Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of the County Government of Trans Nzoia County Revenue Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2023.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of the County Government of Trans Nzoia County Revenue Fund.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of the County Government of Trans Nzoia Receiver of Revenue, Revenue Statements.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Trans Nzoia County Youth and Women Development Fund.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Nakuru County Executive Mortgage Scheme Fund.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Eldama Ravine Water and Sewerage Company Limited.

Report of the Auditor-General on financial statements of Kirandich Water Company Limited.

Report of the Bomet County Assembly Select Committee on Public Investment and Accounts on Inquiry into the Operations and Performance of the Bomet Water and Sanitation Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2021.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay.

Proceed, Chairperson Standing Committee on Health. Sen. Mariam, are you coming to lay the Paper on behalf of the Health Committee

Proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of the Chairperson of the Committee on Health, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate today, 9th May 2024- The Report of the Standing Committee on Health on Inquiry on Alleged Irregularities in Procurement of Long-Lasting Insecticide Treatment Nets at Kenya Medical Supply Authority (KeMSA) Thank you. (

Hon. Senators, before I allow the Clerk to call the next order, allow me to make this Communication. Proceed to take your seat, Sen. Mariam.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know why the Senate Majority Leader is so excited about visitors from my office. I take this opportunity to join you and my colleagues. I am equally excited by the excitement among my colleagues, especially Sen. Kinyua.

At some point, he was unsure whether I would be attending a function that I have later in the evening. However, when he saw the delegation, he came to me and said he wanted to be there. I can see how happy the Senate Majority Leader is.

These members of staff from my office have come here to see what we do in this House. These are the people that have caused my election twice. These are the people who have stood with me in good and bad times. I am very happy that they are here to witness the work that we do on the floor of the Senate.

On behalf of the Senate of the Republic of Kenya, I welcome them and wish them a fruitful visit in this Senate.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Hamida, take your seat.

Hon. Senators, I would also like to acknowledge the presence in the Public Gallery this afternoon, of visiting students and student leaders from the Technical University of Kenya (TUK) in Nairobi City County. The students are in the Senate for a one-day academic exposition.

Hon. Senators, in our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to them. On behalf of the Senate and my own behalf, I wish them a fruitful visit.

Let me allow the Senator for Nairobi City County to extend words of welcome. That will be done in under one minute.

Proceed, Sen.Sen. Sifuna.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare regarding the crisis caused by corruption and nepotism allegations at the Kenya Academy of Sports (KAS) , an institution that is vital to the development of sports in the country.

In the statement, the committee should-

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Roads, Transportation and Housing regarding the critical issues surrounding the deteriorating condition of the Marere Bridge along the Kwale-Kinango Road.

In the statement, the committee should-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare regarding the crisis caused by corruption and nepotism allegations at the Kenya Academy of Sports (KAS) , an institution that is vital to the development of sports in the country.

In the statement, the committee should-

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir---

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Health regarding the unprocedural disciplinary proceedings being meted out on healthcare workers at Vihiga County Referral Hospital.

That is what you need to start with. Proceed.

Proceed, Sen. Mumma.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of Sen. Catherine Mumma, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Education regarding the plans by the Nairobi City County Government and the Ministry of Education to facilitate equitable access to public vocational and technical education and training for the youth in informal settlements in Nairobi.

In the statement, the committee should-

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and group, I call you to order. Proceed, Sen. Ogola.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a second statement by Sen. Mumma. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Education regarding the efforts of both the national Government and the Nairobi City County government to facilitate equal access to public education for children in informal settlements in Nairobi.

In the statement, the committee should-

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Information, Communication, and Technology regarding the loss of signal on the Free-To-Air (FTA) channels for licensed broadcast signal distributors (BSDs) namely Pan African Network Group (PANG) and Signet Kenya Limited.

In the statement, the committee should-

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and group, I call you to order. Proceed, Sen. Ogola.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a second statement by Sen. Mumma. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Education regarding the efforts of both the national Government and the Nairobi City County government to facilitate equal access to public education for children in informal settlements in Nairobi.

In the statement, the committee should-

Next Order, Clerk.

Sen. Olekina and the Majority Leader, just approach the Chair please.

Statement pursuant to Standing Order No.57 (1) , the Senate Majority Leader, proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.57 (1) to hereby present the business of the Senate for the week commencing Tuesday, 14th May, 2024.

During the sitting of the Senate held on Thursday, 2nd May, 2024, the Senate considered and passed two Bills at the Committee of the Whole stage namely; the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bills No.14 of 2024) and the County Governments (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No. 25 of 2023) . These Bills have since been referred to the National Assembly for consideration.

There are a number of Motions that have been filed by various Senators, which are yet to be concluded. It goes without saying that the movers of the said business should be present in the Chamber to prosecute the same as scheduled in the Order Paper of the day.

Forty seven Bills are pending conclusion in the Senate. Forty three of these Bills are at the Second Reading Stage, while four are at the Committee of the Whole stage. Eighteen Motions are pending conclusion, 18 Petitions are due for reporting by the respective Standing Committees, while 343 Statements are pending before the respective Standing Committees.

The Senate Business Committee will meet on Tuesday, 14th May, 2024 to consider the business for the week. The tentative business for Tuesday will include business not concluded from today’s Order Paper as well as the business indicated in the Notice Paper. This business will include-

Next Order, Clerk.

Sen. Methu, Kaunti ya Nyandarua; Sen. Mungatana, MGH, Kaunti ya Tana River; Sen. Munyi Mundigi, Kaunti ya Embu; Sen. Murgor, Kaunti ya West Pokot; Sen. Ogola, Kaunti ya Homa Bay; Sen. Olekina, Kaunti ya Narok; Sen. Omogeni, Kaunti ya Nyamira; Sen. Osotsi, Kaunti ya Vihiga; Sen. Tobiko, Kaunti ya Kajiado; Sen. Sifuna, Kaunti ya Mji wa Nairobi; na, Sen. Wambua, Kaunti ya Kitui.

Kenya inazipa Serikali za Kaunti jukumu la kuendeleza, kuanzisha, kusimamia na kudumisha vifaa vya michezo na kitamaduni ambavyo ni pamoja na viwanja, viwanja vya michezo, vituo vya kitamaduni, na miundombinu mingine inayohusiana;

IKIKUMBUKWA KUWA ukanda mzima wa Pwani Nchini hauna uwanja wa kisasa uliojengwa kwa viwango vya kimataifa, hivyo kuwanyima wananchi manufaa yanayotokana na viwanja na vifaa vya michezo;

WASIWASI kwamba ujenzi wa uwanja wa michezo wa Manispaa ya Mombasa umekumbwa na ucheleweshaji na vikwazo tangu kuanzishwa kwa mradi huo mwaka wa 2019 kutokana na matatizo ya kifedha, ambayo yamesitishwa na kunyima jamii eneo hilo uwanja unaohitajika sana;

KWA HIVYO SASA Bunge la Seneti linaazimia kwamba Hazina ya Kitaifa ya Wizara ya Masuala ya Vijana, Uchumi Ubunifu na Michezo itengee Serikali ya Kaunti ya Mombasa ruzuku ya masharti ya Shilingi bilioni 1.7 kwa ajili ya kukamilisha ujenzi wa Uwanja wa Manispaa ya Mombasa. Sasa Maseneta mnaweza kupiga kura kwa kubonyeza Ndio, La ama ususie kupiga kura.

Sen. Methu, Kaunti ya Nyandarua; Sen. Mungatana, MGH, Kaunti ya Tana River; Sen. Munyi Mundigi, Kaunti ya Embu; Sen. Murgor, Kaunti ya West Pokot; Sen. Ogola, Kaunti ya Homa Bay; Sen. Olekina, Kaunti ya Narok; Sen. Omogeni, Kaunti ya Nyamira; Sen. Osotsi, Kaunti ya Vihiga; Sen. Tobiko, Kaunti ya Kajiado; Sen. Sifuna, Kaunti ya Mji wa Nairobi; na, Sen. Wambua, Kaunti ya Kitui.

NDIO: 27 LA: Haikupata Kura. WALIOSUSIA: Haikupata Kura.

Next Order, Clerk.

NOW THEREFORE, the Senate-

Serjeant-at-Arms, you need not to open the doors. Let them stay closed and the bar drawn. We are going for Division.

We are going to vote twice on this particular Order. We are going to vote for the amendments, once the amendments are carried, we are going to proceed to vote for the Motion as amended.

Therefore, hon. Senators, kindly remove your cards from your delegate units. Serjeant-at-Arms, confirm that we do not have unattended delegate cards in the units. You may now log back, hon. Senators.

Before you proceed to vote, allow me to put the Question.

Hon. Senators, you may now proceed to vote.

Sen. Ogola and Sen. Tobiko, come to the Dispatch Box and cast your vote. Sen. Methu, proceed to the Dispatch Box to be assisted to cast your vote.

We shall proceed to vote on the Motion as amended. Therefore, I am going to put the Question.

Sen. Murgor and Sen. Tobiko proceed to the Dispatch box and cast your vote.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division on the Motion as amended are as follows-

FURTHER CONCERNED that most of the service providers in the counties are battling court cases lodged against them by their financiers and suppliers while others are languishing in poverty caused by the increased cost of living, with increased mental health disease incidences and others dying as a result of the effects of colossal amounts of debt owed to them by county governments;

NOW THEREFORE, the Senate-

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 12 of the Bill be amended in–

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT clause 32 of the Bill be amended—

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 34 of the Bill be amended in subclause

(6)

by deleting the word ‘may’ appearing immediately after the words ‘a county government’ and inserting therefor the word “shall”.

The Temporary Chairperson

: Division will be at the end. Clauses 35-45

The Temporary Chairperson

: Division will be at the end. Clauses 46-55

The Temporary Chairperson

: Division will be at the end.

Amendment to be moved by the Chairperson.

Clause 56

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. Abdul Haji): Sen. Cherarkey, what is your comment?

Chairperson, you can move the amendment.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move - THAT clause 56 of the Bill be amended in –

Sen. Cherarkey, go ahead.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, two quick things. The first one, I agree that it will be mandatory to consult the Council of Governors (CoG) and that is why under Article 96, we are protectors of the devolution.

Secondly, I would like the Mover to guide us, but most of the counties have incomplete asset registers and when you are doing the valuation roll, you need a complete asset register, so that it can be easy for any county government or any entity.

While I agree with the Mover of the amendment, Sen. Methu, that technology is important, but after the passage of this Bill, we will need to write to the Intergovernmental Relations Technical Committee (IGRTC) to ensure that every county has a complete asset register to allow the valuation roll to be done easily.

I am tying up with Clause 32 and 56. I thank you, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir.

Division will be at the end. Clause 30 The Temporary Chairperson (

Division will be at the end.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT clause 30 of the Bill be amended by deleting-

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT clause 32 of the Bill be amended—

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 34 of the Bill be amended in subclause (6) by deleting the word ‘may’ appearing immediately after the words ‘a county government’ and inserting therefor the word “shall”. (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Mr. Temporary Chairman Sir, Sen. Sifuna’s amendment, with the guidance of the Senate Majority Leader, is that the Chief Government Valuer will be a link. This is because it affects the advisor of both county and national governments.

With this description, it will be now easy to advise county and national governments to have a complete asset register to allow the completion of the valuation roll. When they have complete asset registers, then it will be easy to quantify.

I agree with the Chief Government Valuer and this is a straightforward amendment. It captures the aspirations and imaginations ahead of the Bill.

Division will be at the end.

Division will be at the end. Clauses 46-55 (Question, that Clause 46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54 and 55 be part of the Bill proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

New Clause 24B

Division will be at the end.

Senate Majority Whip.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I support this New Clause, but I am disturbed by Sen. Sifuna’s amendment. This age of experience of 15 years is too many years. Are we not deliberately locking out qualified experienced young people?

If to become a judge, you need 10 years, why is he taking it to 15 years? If a person has gotten this degree at the age of 25, if we add another 15 years, it means that to get this job, you must be 40 years and above. Forty is quite advanced and people like Sen. Sifuna, Sen. Nyamu and the Senate Majority Leader are yet to hit 40, yet they hold very senior positions in this country.

That is my comment, if there is anything that can be done.

Sen. Cherarkey, what is your comment?Chairperson, you can move the amendment.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move - THAT clause 56 of the Bill be amended in –

Sen. Cherarkey, go ahead.

It is an office akin to the Auditor-General. However, within that office, they can employ other officers to help that officer. In my view, the holder of the principal office should be someone who has the sort of experience that would accord with the office that they hold.

Sen. Kisang’.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I know this is a House of record, rules and laws. However, in most of the laws we have passed in the past, we put a minimum age of 10 years’ experience. I believe 15 years is on the higher side.

By the time you complete university, you are around 25 years. You will look for employment in another three or four years. Instead of putting 15 years, a Masters qualification could be put as an additional advantage.

Sen. Sifuna, please, approach the Table.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. I beg to move- THAT the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clauses immediately after clause 24— Chief Government Valuer.

24A. (1) There shall be a Chief Government Valuer who shall be the principal advisor to the National Government and county governments on all matters relating to valuation.

Sen. Cherarkey, any comments?

Mr. Temporary Chairman Sir, Sen. Sifuna’s amendment, with the guidance of the Senate Majority Leader, is that the Chief Government Valuer will be a link. This is because it affects the advisor of both county and national governments.

With this description, it will be now easy to advise county and national governments to have a complete asset register to allow the completion of the valuation roll. When they have complete asset registers, then it will be easy to quantify.

I agree with the Chief Government Valuer and this is a straightforward amendment. It captures the aspirations and imaginations ahead of the Bill.

Therefore, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I support that the Chief Government Valuer must have 15 years’ experience for the good of this country and the profession.

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. Abdul Haji): Proceed, Sen. Gloria Orwoba.

New Clause 24B

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move, that the Bill be amended by inserting the following New Clause- Qualification

of the Chief Government Valuer.

24B. (1) A person is qualified for appointment as the Chief Government Valuer if that person—

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Clause immediately after clause 30— Supplementary valuation roll

30A. (1) The county government shall, in preparing a supplementary valuation roll, rely on data or information that was used in the preparation of the valuation roll to assign values to be adopted on the properties contained in a supplementary valuation roll.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I support this New Clause, but I am disturbed by Sen. Sifuna’s amendment. This age of experience of 15 years is too many years. Are we not deliberately locking out qualified experienced young people?

If to become a judge, you need 10 years, why is he taking it to 15 years? If a person has gotten this degree at the age of 25, if we add another 15 years, it means that to get this job, you must be 40 years and above. Forty is quite advanced and people like Sen. Sifuna, Sen. Nyamu and the Senate Majority Leader are yet to hit 40, yet they hold very senior positions in this country.

That is my comment, if there is anything that can be done.

Sen. Sifuna, you may proceed.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, the anticipation was that if you look at the role of the Chief Government Valuer under New Clause 24A, he or she will be the principal advisor to the national Government and county governments on all matters relating to valuation.

It is an office akin to the Auditor-General. However, within that office, they can employ other officers to help that officer. In my view, the holder of the principal office should be someone who has the sort of experience that would accord with the office that they hold.

Sen. Kisang’.

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. Abdul Haji): Hon. Senators, we proceed to the third vote.

(Question that Clauses 3 to 12 as amended, 13, 14 as amended, 15 to 20 as amended, 21 to 29 as amended, 30 as amended, 31, 32 as amended, 33,34 as amended, 35 to 56 as amended, 57, New Clause 24A, New Clause 24B and New Clause 30A, the First Schedule, Second Schedule, Third Schedule, and fourth Schedule, Clause 2 as amended, the title and Clause 1 be part of the Bill put and the Senate proceeded to vote

by county delegations.) Senators, start voting.

Thank you. Sen. Methu.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:

Sen. Beatrice Ogola.

The “Ayes” have it.

Therefore, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I support that the Chief Government Valuer must have 15 years’ experience for the good of this country and the profession.The Temporary Chairperson (

Proceed, Sen. Gloria Orwoba.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I am torn between supporting the 15 years’ experience and the suggested 10 years by the Whip. I want to highlight that we are in the era of the Kenya National Qualifications Authority (KNQA) , a state agency under the Constitution of Kenya that recognises prior learning. When we talk about 15 years’ experience, I want to believe that they mean 15 years’ experience devoid of the normal papers such as degrees. Maybe that needs to be defined further. If we go by what has been happening before all this--- I know some sections of the Constitution have been declared unconstitutional because of discrimination of the youth. I would like some clarity. Do they mean 15 years after graduation from a formal institution or in relevance to the recognition of prior learning according to the KNQA? If that is the case, then I support the 15 years? My issue is locking out the youth. We have the standard time. You can finish High School at a certain age, then do your diploma or degree. However, some people finish high school and go directly to the skills or trades they are involved in without the formal paperwork. That is what the Constitution of Kenya, under KNQA, recognises and ascertains. The Temporary Chairperson (

Proceed, Sen. Mungatana.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I plead with my colleagues that we have the 15 years. When you think about the Chief Pathologist of this country, the experience cannot be less than 15 years. The Chief Geologist in this country is highly qualified. All these are highly qualified professionals. The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) in this country is a person who has grown through the ranks. I will pick from where Sen. Ogola said that it will protect them from political interference. Even if you are a governor or president, if the law requires you to pick someone with 15 or more years of experience, you cannot bring your campaigners into professional positions. Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I plead with my colleagues to not take too long on this. Let us agree that 15 years is okay. The Temporary Chairperson (

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee reports to the Senate its consideration of the National Rating Bill (National Assembly Bill No.55 of 2022) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Clause immediately after clause 30— Supplementary valuation roll

30A. (1) The county government shall, in preparing a supplementary valuation roll, rely on data or information that was used in the preparation of the valuation roll to assign values to be adopted on the properties contained in a supplementary valuation roll.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered the National Rating Bill (National Assembly Bill No.55 of 2022) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said Report. I ask the Senator for Laikipia, Sen. Kinyua, to second.

Hon. Senators, we have two amendments on Clause 2; one by the Chairperson and another one by Sen. Sifuna. The two amendments do not seem to clash. Therefore, we will have division for both.Proceed, Chairperson of the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources.

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by deleting –

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by deleting the definition of ‘Chief Government Valuer’ and inserting the following new definition— “Chief Government Valuer” means a valuer appointed under Section 24A (Question of the further amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Hon. Senators, we will now go for Division.

Serjeant-at-Arms, ring the Bell for five minutes.

Division will be at the end. We are now proceeding to Division. Serjeant-at-Arms, please, ring the Bell for five minutes.

The Temporary Chairperson (

Hon. Senators, log out and log into the system. Kindly start the voting.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:

Hon. Senators, I will reorganize the Order Paper. We are done with Order No. 11. We will therefore go to Order No. 20.

Clerk, you can call it out?

The Senate Majority Leader?

Madam Temporary Speaker, on many occasions I have said that if the relation was to be kept as is the case right now, where Speakers of both Houses consult and agree prior to the publication of any Bill on both Houses, although it is not the ideal situation because there have been occasional squabbles that a certain Bill has not gone for concurrence from either House, but, that is what we seek from this Bill.

Considering we are doing this for posterity, we decided to draft and put this in a Bill, so that we document our relations, we agree and move forward. Something controversial I might say about this Bill is that the Bill as it is, is not the position of the Senate and this I must make clear.

It is upon our Members of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights (JLAC), including yours truly, to give perspective to this Bill. However, many times we have appeared before the judges of the Supreme Court, the highest court of the land, and they have asked our advocates on many occasions if it is possible for both Houses to agree. At times we file a consent and agree on certain issues and then, midway, positions change depending on convenience and many other things because of politics, institutional ego to protect and personality issues involved.

We felt that we better put this in law, so that nobody is ever in doubt on the procedure to follow. There are many Bills that have been challenged on account of concurrence alone. Today, many institutions are hamstrung on their operations because of this dispute between us and the National Assembly.

When we sat down, we decided that it will be better for us to put this into law and seek an agreement that will guide future relations for posterity. In another 20, 30 or 50 years from now when none of us will be within the precincts of Parliament, those who will be there will celebrate the good wisdom that this House guided regarding this issue.

I want to go on record as I move this Bill that it is the National Assembly’s perspective on how to carry out bicameral relations. I look forward to having the final report of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights on this topic even as we debate it. In fact, this is an occasion of the many that I have spoken on the need for us to bring this matter to a close. That is, whether it is proper for Members to debate before or after the report. I have said both schools of thought are right. This is one of the occasions where I feel Members of that committee need to know the input of the users of that particular law. I can see quite a number of them in the House this evening as I move this Bill. The users of this law is we as Parliament.

I have always argued the case that nothing bars us from debating any Bill before a committee prepares and presents its report to the House. Sometimes even Members of Parliament (MPs) need to give our stakeholders views in our committees. Sometimes there is no better avenue than the Floor of the House. This is not to say that the route we have used on many Bills, which is to debate after a committee has tabled its report, is wrong. The experts of legislative processes, like Director Ruge here, can inform this debate even better because of their experience.

I said there is no better time to debate a Bill such as this than right now before the committee considers the views of the users. There are no other users, but us MPs. We should listen to what every Member of this House wants in a bicameral relation between

us and the National Assembly then input that into their report and bring us the amendments.

I expect a radical departure on what is proposed in this particular Bill. After that, we can meet with our colleagues of the National Assembly at the mediation stage and agree to something. If fine, then we should have a law that will guide this process. That way, this dispute will become something of the past and we would have behaved like a mature democracy as is expected of us. That is the context of this important Bill, which I will explain properly.

Clause three of the Bill provides for the various objects of this Act. For example, to provide a framework for the manner of conducting matters of bicameral nature; publication and gazettement of Bills to be introduced in Houses of Parliament as dictated by Article 109(4); and outline a sticky issue of Article 110(3), so that you define what constitutes consideration of a Bill for purposes of Article 110(3). It is something that has as varied opinions in this Parliament as you will ever imagine.

Part two of the Bill speaks of the publication and enacting formula. If a Bill is to be introduced by any Member of a committee of a House of Parliament, pursuant to Article 109(5) of the Constitution, it shall be published in a Gazette in such a manner as may be specified in the Standing Orders. This varies from one House to the other. What we do in the Senate does not necessarily hold true in the National Assembly and vice versa.

Madam Temporary Speaker, part three of the Bill, is at the heart of the dispute. It is something called the joint resolution of the question of whether that Bill concerns counties or not. At what point does that question arise? We in the Senate hold a completely different view with our colleagues in the National Assembly. We hold the view that that determination needs to be made prior to the publication of any Bill.

Our colleagues in the National Assembly say that until somebody rises on the Floor of the House, the Speaker is blind, deaf, and anything that you can imagine to the Constitution until they are appointed to by a Member of the House and told, I believe this Bill as drafted, concerns counties. Therefore, you need to make a determination. Then the Speaker rises and says, I will make a determination. Of course, there is an obvious flaw in that school of thought. The question then that you ask yourself is, after making that determination, where is the chance for the Speaker of the Senate? Yet at that particular time, they had not consulted as the two Speakers.

We will listen to them during the mediation process. I trust the ability of the Justice, Legal and Human Rights Committee (JLAHRC) to resolve this question very ably. We will listen to how they propose this particular section. Therefore, that is properly covered in Clause six of the Bill. When a Bill is published, what happens, and the nature of determination.

Clause 7 speaks to other consequential amendments that will come. There are various Bills relating to the election of a Member of County Assembly (MCA) or County Executive. For the provision of Clause 6, we are saying that there are certain Bills that these clauses do not apply to for obvious understanding. May be obvious to them, but not necessarily obvious to us.

There are certain Bills which they hold the view that this is not even something for debate. They have listed a number of them including the annual County Allocation of Revenue Bill, which is something we do on both Houses, the Appropriation Bill, which is done in the National Assembly, the Finance Bill, any Bill that provides for taxation and revenue-raising powers of the national Government, and a Bill concerning county governments. Therefore, that is something, which I will request our Members of Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights Committee to guide us appropriately, even as we make that decision.

Clause 9 guides on after the resolution of the question has been arrived at. and it reads-

“Whenever a Speaker of the second House, agrees with this question raised as contemplated under Section 8.2, the Speaker shall prepare and transmit a certificate of joint resolution in duplicate for endorsement by the Speaker of the originating House.’’

Remember, I have explained the history of how the National Assembly views this issue of the resolution of the question of whether it concerns or does not concern counties. That is why it is drafted as it is. Peg somewhere at the back of your mind what the views of the Senate are, and that is well known.

Then, finally, it is issues such as the money Bill in accordance with Article 109

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I also want to thank the Senate Majority Leader because he moved this Bill in a very able manner.

I am currently sitting in a Mediation Committee. About two weeks ago, the Speaker of the National Assembly, the Hon. Moses Wetangula, announced that two Bills had been rejected in Second Reading in the National Assembly. One was a Land amendment Bill and another was the Natural Resources Benefit Sharing Bill, which was a Bill that I had sponsored.

So, I was named among the Senators who would be in the Mediation Committee with the National Assembly. This is my second time in a mediation arrangement with the National Assembly, so I will speak from experience.

The first experience we had was when there was a joint attempt by the National Assembly and the Senate to bring constitutional Bills. This attempt did not go far. There was a committee chairperson named from the National Assembly side and a committee chairperson named from this side. This came as a result of Kamukunjis that were trying to find a way forward on some difficult questions in the Constitution.

We only had two meetings and that Committee dissipated. The reason why that Committee was not successful was because the law that guides bicameral relations was nonexistent at that time. Even these mediation committees that we have try to make sense of the provisions in the Constitution.

As we all know, the Constitution gives wide proclamations. For those proclamations to be effective, there must be legislation that comes to the nitty gritty. When you look at the provisions as they stand now, a Bill may be rejected, or some sections of it may be rejected by the National Assembly and then a mediation committee is appointed. This is not in law. It is just what has been agreed upon as a procedure that is supposed to work between the National Assembly and the Senate. When a mediation committee meets, there are supposed to be discussions and negotiations on the contentious sections of the Bills that have issues.

When those clauses are agreed upon, a mediated version of the Bill is supposed to be presented in both the National Assembly and the Senate. From what we learnt and my experience, we are supposed to do a Motion attaching the mediated or agreed version on both sides. If we approve that mediated version and they approve it, it skips the other important stages like the Committee stage and the Third Reading. That Bill goes straight for assent. The timelines are also limited.

When you look at it, there is a problem in terms of the procedure and the detail of the procedure that is supposed to guide the relations between ourselves and the other House.

Practical difficulties also arise. For example, the Bill is supposed to go for mediation and a timeline is set. When does that timeline start running? It is when both Houses Mediation Committee sits. That is when the time for 90 days is supposed to run.

Madam Temporary Speaker, practically speaking, right now the other House has gone on recess. We are going to be in session until somewhere around 30th May, 2024. Therefore, when we will be going on recess, the other House will be resuming. We are talking of almost 60 days going without the Mediation Committee sitting. Why am I

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered the National Rating Bill (National Assembly Bill No.55 of 2022) and its approval thereof with amendments.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said Report. I ask the Senator for Laikipia, Sen. Kinyua, to second.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I second.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the National Rating Bill (National Assembly Bill No.55 of 2022) be now read a Third Time.

I request the Senator for Kisumu County to second.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I second.

Hon. Senators, we will now go for Division.

Serjeant-at-Arms, ring the Bell for five minutes.

Serjeant-At-Arms you can stop the bell.

Clerk do we have quorum?

Kindly draw the bars and close the doors. .

(Question put)

Hon. Senators, log out and log into the system. Kindly start the voting.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division for Third Reading are as follows -

Hon. Senators, I will reorganize the Order Paper. We are done with Order No. 11. We will therefore go to Order No. 20.

Clerk, you can call it out?

The Senate Majority Leader?

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to move that the Houses of Parliament (Bicameral Relations) Bill, 2023 be now a Second Time.

This is a very important Bill whose history we all know. Sometimes, around the year 2018, the Senate did something quite historic. The entire House folded and we walked hand-in-hand from these Chambers of Parliament, all the way to Milimani High Court. We had tried every known route of diplomacy to set normal relations between us and the National Assembly.

For various reasons that are well known and documented, both within and without the precincts of Parliament, we were unsuccessful. We thought that the best thing to do is to seek justice in the courts of law. Therefore, led by the then Speaker, Hon. Lusaka and now the Governor of Bungoma County, all the 67 delegations that day marched to the Milimani High Court and presented our Petition.

Madam Temporary Speaker, since then, we have had our victories and losses. While the judges of the High Court agreed with us, there were certain aspects of what we felt that they needed to set aside on procedures of Parliament and what is done. In the interpretation of Article 110 and the many disputes we have between us and the National Assembly, there have since been various positions from the Supreme Court, the Court of Appeal and to the High Court.

Basically, every level of the Judicial authorities of this country have had a say on this thorny and sticky issue. Unfortunately, there is lack of symphony in the guidance they have given to this House. While one court says this, the other holds a different view. One can see that this is something that will take us to reason together as the Houses of Parliament because we are the ones who are the users of this Clause of the Constitution and are better placed to understand how best we can work.

Hon Senators, it is now 6.30

us and the National Assembly then input that into their report and bring us the amendments.

I expect a radical departure on what is proposed in this particular Bill. After that, we can meet with our colleagues of the National Assembly at the mediation stage and agree to something. If fine, then we should have a law that will guide this process. That way, this dispute will become something of the past and we would have behaved like a mature democracy as is expected of us. That is the context of this important Bill, which I will explain properly.

Clause three of the Bill provides for the various objects of this Act. For example, to provide a framework for the manner of conducting matters of bicameral nature; publication and gazettement of Bills to be introduced in Houses of Parliament as dictated by Article 109(4); and outline a sticky issue of Article 110(3), so that you define what constitutes consideration of a Bill for purposes of Article 110(3). It is something that has as varied opinions in this Parliament as you will ever imagine.

Part two of the Bill speaks of the publication and enacting formula. If a Bill is to be introduced by any Member of a committee of a House of Parliament, pursuant to Article 109(5) of the Constitution, it shall be published in a Gazette in such a manner as may be specified in the Standing Orders. This varies from one House to the other. What we do in the Senate does not necessarily hold true in the National Assembly and vice versa.

Madam Temporary Speaker, part three of the Bill, is at the heart of the dispute. It is something called the joint resolution of the question of whether that Bill concerns counties or not. At what point does that question arise? We in the Senate hold a completely different view with our colleagues in the National Assembly. We hold the view that that determination needs to be made prior to the publication of any Bill.

Our colleagues in the National Assembly say that until somebody rises on the Floor of the House, the Speaker is blind, deaf, and anything that you can imagine to the Constitution until they are appointed to by a Member of the House and told, I believe this Bill as drafted, concerns counties. Therefore, you need to make a determination. Then the Speaker rises and says, I will make a determination. Of course, there is an obvious flaw in that school of thought. The question then that you ask yourself is, after making that determination, where is the chance for the Speaker of the Senate? Yet at that particular time, they had not consulted as the two Speakers.

We will listen to them during the mediation process. I trust the ability of the Justice, Legal and Human Rights Committee (JLAHRC) to resolve this question very ably. We will listen to how they propose this particular section. Therefore, that is properly covered in Clause six of the Bill. When a Bill is published, what happens, and the nature of determination.

Clause 7 speaks to other consequential amendments that will come. There are various Bills relating to the election of a Member of County Assembly (MCA) or County Executive. For the provision of Clause 6, we are saying that there are certain Bills that these clauses do not apply to for obvious understanding. May be obvious to them, but not necessarily obvious to us.

There are certain Bills which they hold the view that this is not even something for debate. They have listed a number of them including the annual County Allocation of Revenue Bill, which is something we do on both Houses, the Appropriation Bill, which is done in the National Assembly, the Finance Bill, any Bill that provides for taxation and revenue-raising powers of the national Government, and a Bill concerning county governments. Therefore, that is something, which I will request our Members of Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights Committee to guide us appropriately, even as we make that decision.

Clause 9 guides on after the resolution of the question has been arrived at. and it reads-

“Whenever a Speaker of the second House, agrees with this question raised as contemplated under Section 8.2, the Speaker shall prepare and transmit a certificate of joint resolution in duplicate for endorsement by the Speaker of the originating House.’’

Remember, I have explained the history of how the National Assembly views this issue of the resolution of the question of whether it concerns or does not concern counties. That is why it is drafted as it is. Peg somewhere at the back of your mind what the views of the Senate are, and that is well known.

Then, finally, it is issues such as the money Bill in accordance with Article 109

Thank you, Senate Majority Leader.

Proceed, Sen. Mungatana.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I also want to thank the Senate Majority Leader because he moved this Bill in a very able manner.

I am currently sitting in a Mediation Committee. About two weeks ago, the Speaker of the National Assembly, the Hon. Moses Wetangula, announced that two Bills had been rejected in Second Reading in the National Assembly. One was a Land amendment Bill and another was the Natural Resources Benefit Sharing Bill, which was a Bill that I had sponsored.

So, I was named among the Senators who would be in the Mediation Committee with the National Assembly. This is my second time in a mediation arrangement with the National Assembly, so I will speak from experience.

The first experience we had was when there was a joint attempt by the National Assembly and the Senate to bring constitutional Bills. This attempt did not go far. There was a committee chairperson named from the National Assembly side and a committee chairperson named from this side. This came as a result of Kamukunjis that were trying to find a way forward on some difficult questions in the Constitution.

We only had two meetings and that Committee dissipated. The reason why that Committee was not successful was because the law that guides bicameral relations was nonexistent at that time. Even these mediation committees that we have try to make sense of the provisions in the Constitution.

As we all know, the Constitution gives wide proclamations. For those proclamations to be effective, there must be legislation that comes to the nitty gritty. When you look at the provisions as they stand now, a Bill may be rejected, or some sections of it may be rejected by the National Assembly and then a mediation committee is appointed. This is not in law. It is just what has been agreed upon as a procedure that is supposed to work between the National Assembly and the Senate. When a mediation committee meets, there are supposed to be discussions and negotiations on the contentious sections of the Bills that have issues.

When those clauses are agreed upon, a mediated version of the Bill is supposed to be presented in both the National Assembly and the Senate. From what we learnt and my experience, we are supposed to do a Motion attaching the mediated or agreed version on both sides. If we approve that mediated version and they approve it, it skips the other important stages like the Committee stage and the Third Reading. That Bill goes straight for assent. The timelines are also limited.

When you look at it, there is a problem in terms of the procedure and the detail of the procedure that is supposed to guide the relations between ourselves and the other House.

Practical difficulties also arise. For example, the Bill is supposed to go for mediation and a timeline is set. When does that timeline start running? It is when both Houses Mediation Committee sits. That is when the time for 90 days is supposed to run.

Madam Temporary Speaker, practically speaking, right now the other House has gone on recess. We are going to be in session until somewhere around 30th May, 2024. Therefore, when we will be going on recess, the other House will be resuming. We are talking of almost 60 days going without the Mediation Committee sitting. Why am I

giving all these details? It is for those Senators who are listening to me, to appreciate that there is a legal lacuna that we need to fix in as far as the relationship between the National Assembly and the Senate is concerned. This must be fixed today, not tomorrow, because we have a lot of pending business between the two Houses and many times we have different viewpoints on the same issues.

The National Assembly, in my opinion, and with a lot of respect, for example, does not go beyond the moment they see, think or feel that this is a Money Bill. They are sort of held there and they decide to reject a Bill when in fact, they come from counties and those Bills assist their counties.

It is critical on my part to second this Bill. I urge Senators to speak to this Bill. I fully agree with the fact that the input of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights (JLAC) is truly required in this matter. I hope the Chairperson of the JLAC will have earlier opportunities to speak to this Bill, so that Members who are going to follow, can hear and see the thinking behind what we want as a Senate. Possibly at the earliest opportunity, let the report of JLAC be tabled, because we would want this debate to be well-informed and well-guided so that we can get the kind of results that we require.

I have a lot to say, but I do not want us to pass the time so I will stop there. I beg to second.

I can see the Chairperson of the JLAC is here.

Proceed, Sen. Methu.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I have been struggling to check the time. Yesterday we had an issue with the various clocks in the House. They were reading different scripts and it was raised as a point of order and directions were given by the Chair then that the clock on my left, right and the one directly against the Chair should be in sync.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I believe there must have been a missing link in terms of administration. Indeed, that is what misguided Sen. Mungatana as he was struggling to check on the time. However, with that in mind, I believe that ---

Senator, if I can give a guide on that clock, in my view, I do notice that is a valid concern. The three clocks are reading differently. It is already 6.30 p.m. on the right-hand side, which is not the case for the clock in the middle aisle and on the Minority side. It is only on the Majority side that it is

Hon Senators, it is now 6.30