December, 06, 2018 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1

Thursday, 6th December 2018

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:

Report of the Joint Committee of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock and the Departmental Committee of Trade, Industry and Cooperatives, on the Study visit to India on Bt Cotton from 16th to 23rd September 2018.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, my Question goes to the Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government the following Question:

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Public Service, Youth and Gender Affairs the following Question:

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education the following Question:

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Energy the following Question:

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government the following Question:

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government the following Question:

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the Capital Markets (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.19 of 2018) be now read a Third Time. I also request, Hon. Chris Wamalwa to second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Hon. Wamalwa, to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : I confirm that the House is properly constituted.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Next Order!

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the Sacco Societies (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.18 of 2018) be now read a Third Time. I also request, Hon. Chris Wamalwa to second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Hon. Wamalwa, to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Next Order!

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the Assumption of Office of County Governor Bill (Senate Bill No.1 of 2018) be now read a Third Time. I also request the Vice-Chair of the Departmental Committee on Energy, Hon. Pukose to second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Vice-Chair of the Departmental Committee on Energy to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I second the Third Reading of the Senate Bill No.1 of 2018.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Next Order!

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the County Allocation of Revenue (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.29 of

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The County Allocation of Revenue (Amendment) Bill, which is from the Senate, seeks to amend the County Allocation of Revenue Act, 2018 which this House passed. This Bill seeks to incorporate the recent amendment that we made, as a House, to the Division of Revenue Act 2018 as approved by the House in August 2018. As we look into incorporating and aligning this amendment into the County Allocation of Revenue Act 2018, there are concerns of not adhering to the budgetary process, in view of the amendments coming six months late after the end of the budget process. So, there are concerns in terms of implementation.

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The first request is by the Member for Kiminini, Hon. Chris Wamalwa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this County Allocation of Revenue (Amendment) Bill.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am sorry to interrupt Hon. Chris Wamalwa when he is contributing to this Bill because it is very important for the counties.

Is Hon. Chris Wamalwa in order? He has gone completely off-tangent on the matter before the House.

Secondly, is he in order to mislead the nation that you cannot have potatoes in the strategic grain reserves in a day and age where, Hon. Chris Wamalwa, being a learned person, knows that you can dry potatoes, install coolers and store potatoes as part of our strategic grain reserves? I am sure he is from Trans Nzoia so he may have a very strong point on maize but my colleague who is seated behind me, Members of Parliament for Mwea and Ahero in Nyanza there is rice.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : You are on a point of order. Are you arguing?

My point of order was on relevance. Second is whether Chris Wamalwa is in order to mislead the House that issues to do with food security are only about maize.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Chris Wamalwa, I am sure that is in line with his argument. When the Mover moved the Bill, you got an opportunity to contribute. Be relevant please. Let us not dwell on that. I know it is about rice, potatoes and maize. Do you have an important issue?

Yes. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Is it a matter that can enrich what Hon. Wamalwa has said?

This goes to my senior, Hon. Chris, who is my mentor. Something happened in this country. Legal Notice No. 15 was passed in 2015 to implement the Strategic Food Reserve Trust Fund.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Hon. Wachira Kabinga, you are sound in your argument but it is the wrong timing. You could have risen on a point of order or a point to inform Hon. Chris Wamalwa. If he accepts your information, you inform him. When you get your time to contribute, you will explain about the legal notice. I cannot give you an opportunity to contribute now unless something is out of order. I am sure you will get your time to contribute. This is a House of debate. Thank you.

Hon. Chris Wamalwa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. One of the conditional grants is in agriculture. You must understand where I am coming from. Maize is agriculture and this is as per the conditional grant. I have broken it down. I am trying to cascade downwards. I did not mention anywhere that potatoes or rice should not be under strategic food reserve.

Hon. Makali Mulu

: On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

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Given where Hon. Chris

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this Bill. I want to let my brother, Hon. Wamalwa, know that with the challenges we have with maize production in this country, many people are now turning to rice. We are researching on how to make porridge and ugali from rice. We are moving on.

I want to support this Bill. We know very well that devolution is working and we are devolving more resources to our counties. I want to commend our national Government for providing the necessary environment that has enabled many development partners to invest heavily in this country. The distribution of resources by development partners is assumed to be independent, in the sense that development partners decide where to put their money. Having worked with a development partner, I know that there is some influence in the distribution of those resources, even at the development partner level. It is therefore important that even as we pass these Bills and approve the revenue allocation to our counties, it is always good… I urge the Budget and Appropriations Committee to ensure that we compare or look at what we are allocating from our national kitty vis-a-vis what is coming from the development partners.

I have gone through this Report and I am surprised that in climate-smart agriculture, my county is missing in that allocation yet my county is agriculturally rich. I expected that there would be some allocation. I also notice that in urban development, whereas some counties were allocated under Kshs50 million, we have other counties getting over Khshs1 billion. If I go to the Kenya Urban Roads Authority, I may find that the same counties have a greater share. They have a greater share when it comes to development partners and our development kitty. This will cause great disparity in the long-run. I have always argued that we need to re-look at resource allocation in our country because I have noticed that some of the counties that benefit more from development partners are the same counties that get the Equalisation Fund. They are classified as Arid and Semi-Arid Lands (ASALs) therefore they get all these resources converging to them at the expense of other counties.

I have further argued in the past that even the way we allocate the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) to constituencies that have less than three wards

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, thank you for this opportunity you have given me so that I can make my comments on the County Allocation of Revenue (Amendment) Bill, Senate Bill No.29 of 2018.

At the outset, let me record my support for the Bill. Let me also go on record that the best that ever happened to this country is devolution. We fought for it for many years to enable us get resources to the ground where people are and understand the challenges and difficulties affecting our people. As much as we have pumped a lot of funds and resources into devolution, there is a growing feeling that quite a number of the resources do not have a multiplier effect expected from this kind of resources. It is therefore a call to the country as a whole that we must now train our eyes, ears and all our efforts towards the utilisation of these funds at county level. We have many cases of misuse or underuse of resources devolved to the county governments.

I echo what my colleagues have said about monitoring and evaluation. I urge the Senate and county assemblies that the fate of Kenyans is on devolution and it depends on how effectively we use resources. I urge the Senate and county assemblies not to belittle or shun their oversight roles. They need to continuously put the county governments and governors and executive members at their levels under serious scrutiny so that we allow resources to reach where they ought to. We should not have cases where most resources are plundered at the executive level and do not go to the ground where they are supposed to be. We have had many reports from the Auditor-General that have given a very negative assessment on utilisation of funds. In this country, many people believe that it is only a few counties that have effectively

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Let me say that I support the County Allocation of Revenue (Amendment) Bill because it supports the Big Four Agenda, which will enable creation of employment and affordable housing. Devolution is key in Kenya at the moment particularly in areas that have been dragging behind in the past. Livestock is part of agriculture. Counties such as Marsabit, Wajir and the rest, were previously not getting enough resources. Remember livestock contributes about 12 per cent of Gross Domestic Product of this country.

The Maputo declaration indicates that about 10 per cent of any national budget should go to agriculture. Even after this declaration has been ratified, it has not been gazetted at the county

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I sought an intervention when they were counter-accusing each other and I thought it would have helped because I come from an agricultural background and I would have informed the discussions. Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the adoption of this Bill. We used to have strategic grain reserves in this country instead of strategic food reserves. We realised in 2015 that we needed to include other foods and not just maize, wheat and rice. So, the country changed to strategic food reserves. These days, we even keep milk and the country is moving towards more diversification other than promotion of production of maize even in areas where it does not do well.

It is a point in time when we should look at other crops. Potatoes are a very important crop in this country. It is the most consumed crop, but may not have had a lot of recognition because we do not make much noise about potatoes. The funding we are talking about today comes in to sort out some of the issues. I want to speak to the Agricultural Sector Development Program (ASDP) II. The ASDP II comes in after the ASDP I, which was basically organising agricultural extension and value chains. The ASDP II has a lot more.

Without passing this amendment, the Kshs3.73 billion will not be availed to the development of this country through the three programs that we are discussing today. Some of them are not necessarily in agriculture and I can see we are talking about agriculture a lot.

Agriculture is majorly devolved as many of the speakers have said. That means that most of this money will be spent at the counties. The money for the ASDP will go to do specific things within the counties. It is equally divided across the counties. They have set up systems and procedures for utilisation of this money being a bilateral arrangement between the Kenyan Government and the Swedish Government. There have been intensive discussions before we came up with this program. The program is named ASDP, which comes in to implement the agricultural sector development strategy. This is the strategy that has called for reorganisation of agriculture for commercialisation and manufacturing.

The National Treasury has been involved all the way in the design and the development of this program with the mother ministry. So, during the design and development, there is that serious consultation. I want to alleviate the fears of most Members who have spoken about the misappropriation of the funds. There are very few chances of misappropriating this Fund because it is very well designed and discussed in terms of putting it to specific activities in different counties. So, realising these activities and having a clear monitoring and evaluation program, to basically check what is coming out of the implementation and whether it is in line with what is

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We have other forms of efforts like what we call the Alliance for a Green Revolution in Africa (AGRA) . When it comes to a revolution you have to be extremely thorough and mobilise adequately. I do not think this is happening. So, we are calling upon other efforts to do this.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I support but I would like to briefly add that we had Maputo Declaration which ended in 2013 and was not met. However, it transformed to Malabo Declaration and we are also doing extremely poor in it. The more money we put in agriculture, the more we are focused to grow the development in this country.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : The Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Lands and the Member for Kitui South.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to support this amendment. It is looking at inclusion of more funds from various development partners supporting our country. These countries have been very useful in pulling together with our country.

I see lots of money being pushed towards agriculture and climate change among others. This is in recognition of the President and Deputy President’s Jubilee agenda. I want to appreciate that other countries are looking at this positively and giving us funds. I would like to start with the agriculture sector which seems to have been given a very good chunk of this money. As we focus on other crops that exist in other parts of the country, I would like to bring the debate of ndengu which is a good crop in the semi-arid areas of Kitui, Makueni…

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : You said the debate for what?

I would like to relate this to the fact that we have a crop that seems not to have been recognised as a strategic grain in the country. I know that many proposals have been brought up…

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : I heard you say ndengu. Is there an English word for it?

It is called green grams. I would like to call it another common name because people are referring to their crops in their mother tongue, ndakithi.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu) : Hon. Member, ndakithi is also its name? Anyway, carry on.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I know this matter about ndengu also affects Kibwezi. I know a lot has been said, the President and Deputy President have spoken. The other day Raila Odinga was speaking about inclusion of ndengu as a strategic grain of this country. It will be good to go beyond the statements and see Kshs300 or 500 million going to farmers whose ndengu is rotting in the stores today.

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Asante sana, Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda kwa fursa hii. Mwanzo kabisa, nasimama kuunga mkono marekebisho haya. Kilimo ni miongoni mwa sekta ambazo ziko rohoni mwa majimbo yote ya Kenya. Ugatuzi ni kitu ambacho Wakenya walipigania na tumeona maendeleo ya ugatuzi. Ingawaje kuna madoadoa hapa na pale kwa sababu ya rushwa, ugatuzi bado umewasaidia Wakenya wengi isipokuwa mfumo wa ugavi wa huu mgao ambao tunatumia sasa hivi kidogo uko na dosari. Nikiangalia, kuna majimbo kutoka tangu tupate Uhuru mwaka wa 1963 ambayo bado hayana maji na ukiangalia katika majimbo mengine, wana maji yakutosha yakunywa na yakufanya unyunyizaji mashambani mwao. Wengine hata yakunywa ni matatizo. Mfano ni kule kwangu Mwatate ambako maji ya kunywa ni tatizo. Maji mengi ambayo yanachimbwa kwa visima, kwa sababu ya madini, hayako masafi kwa wananchi kuyatumia. Ugavi uko na tatizo katika majimbo yetu. Naomba Seneti ijaribu kuangalia na kubadilisha mfumo wa ugavi. Tukisema eti mahali kuna idadi kubwa ya watu ndio hela zinaelekea nyingi… Kuna majimbo ambayo yana watu kidogo lakini ni makubwa na barabara ni zilezile. Sasa ukiwapatia hela kidogo, utaona kwamba majimbo mengine yanaendelea zaidi kuliko mengine.

Sasa hivi nilikuwa na angalia rununu yangu. Ukiniruhusu nitadokeza kuhusu niliyoona katika WhatsApp. Mmoja amesema: “Usifananishe maendeleo ya Taita Taveta na Kaunti ya Kitui. Usitofautishe maendeleo ya Taita Taveta na Kaunti ya Kwale.” Lakini ukiangalia ugavi wa Kwale na ule wa Kitui ni mkubwa kuliko ule wa Taita Taveta. Kwa hivyo, huwezi kufananisha maendeleo ya majimbo haya na majimbo mengine ambayo yanapata hela kidogo, haswa Taita Taveta maana jimbo ni kubwa na linataka hela nyingi. Mfumo ungetengenezwa ikawa kwamba kama ni dawa, mahali kuna watu wengi basi Seneti ingetengeneza kwamba jimbo ambalo lina watu wengi lipelekewe pesa nyingi za dawa lakini kama jimbo ni kubwa, kwa mfano, katika upande wa barabara na lipewe hela nyingi kuliko majimbo mengine, hapo ndipo kuna tatizo. Ukweli ni kwamba kuna maendeleo maana tumepiga hatua mpaka sasa hivi. Kila jimbo Kenya liko na kilimo. Kwa hivyo, kuboresha kilimo ni sawa na kuboresha maisha ya Wakenya.

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute on this Bill. I want to make a few remarks and say that I support the County Allocation of Revenue (Amendment) Bill 2018. There are certain things that we need to observe when we are allocating donor resources to counties because we are aware counties lack capacity to implement some of these projects. Going through this Bill, you find that we are allocating about Kshs37 billion to counties and these are funds either borrowed or donated by donors. We have a problem with our debt position right now as a country. I am worried that we are still giving counties a lot of resources from donors when we are not even certain that they have capacity to implement these programmes. If you look at the last page on this Bill, you will find that we are giving about Kshs11 billion as credit to counties from the World Bank Kenya Urban Support Project. This project appears humongous, but I think we need to understand what it is all about because these resources are too much. A county like Uasin Gishu is receiving Kshs360 million for the Kenya Urban Support Project and so are many others. We really have to be sure that counties have the capacity to implement donor projects.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Atandi, just hold your horses. Hon. Bunyasi, what is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, is the Member in order to allude that there is more than Kshs30 billion being given? This is only Kshs3.7 billion in total. I do not know where he is getting these large figures that he is talking about.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Atandi, did you speak to Kshs37 billion or Kshs3.7 billion?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I said that the total loans and grants that are being dispensed in this financial year is Kshs36 billion.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

:

In this particular one.

Yes. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: It is only Kshs3.7 billion.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, if you look at the total grants and loans in the last column, column (n) …

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Just proceed. I think the Mover had spoken to it.

So, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, my point is that we need to ensure capacity of counties to implement donor funds that we are allocating to them. That is one. Two, we know that donor funds have been abused in the past. Even in national Government, we have had resources donated by donors being abused. I caution counties that we need to ensure that these resources are used for the purpose for which they have

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, the Member for Kikuyu has disappeared. He is supposed to reply but I will help him.

Hon. Shakeel, you cannot just walk in. You are not in a market in your constituency. First of all, you need to know what is going on in the House and get Order Paper.

This is a very important Bill. I thank Hon. (Prof.) Oduol, Hon. Walukhe, Hon. Aden and the Member for Laisamis who agreed with me that we need to move to the next Order because today is the last day and the National Youth Service Bill is very critical. So, the County Allocation of Revenue (Amendment) Bill is just amending County Allocation of Revenue Act which we passed in August to make sure that the donor-funded projects in terms of the conditional allocations are factored in so that counties can access this money.

With those many remarks, I beg to reply. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Members, for obvious reasons, I will not put this matter to Question. I will direct that we move to the next Order. Before that Order is read out, I see from your Order Paper that there are two Bills set out for consideration at the Committee of the whole House. One of them is the one that we have just completed.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

:

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I intended to move amendments to Clause 7 but after consulting the Chair of the Committee and the Leader of the Majority Party, I drop my amendments to Clause 7.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Very well, the proposed amendments to Clause 7 by Hon. Ojiambo Oundo stand dropped.

Wilberforce Oundo dropped)

There is a proposed amendment to Clause 7 (1) (d) by the Chair of the Committee.

THAT, Clause 7 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) (d) by inserting the words “pursuant to the provisions of the Fourth Schedule of the Constitution” immediately after the words “commercial activities”.

The justification is that counties are coming up with their own services. Since this Bill does not concern the counties, there is need to define the extent of operation of the Service to only cover the national Government as per the functions defined in the Fourth Schedule of the Constitution. Where it is necessary that the Service engages counties, there has to be consultation and a memorandum entered into.

(Question, that the words to be inserted

be inserted, put and agreed to)

Clause 9

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, Clause 9 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (8) by deleting the expression “9 (2) (g) ” and substituting therefor the expression “9 (2) (a) and (g) ”.

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THAT, Clause 10 of the Bill be amended in paragraph (e) by deleting the word “Commission” and substituting therefor the word “Council”.

The justification for this is that we used the word “commission” instead of the word “council”.

(Question, that the word to be left out

be left out, put and agreed to)

Clause 11

THAT, Clause 11of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (2) by deleting the words “with the approval of the Cabinet Secretary” appearing immediately after the words “the Council may”.

The justification for this is that the Council should not consult the Cabinet Secretary on everything including co-opting a member of the Committee. This is a very simple thing. They do not need to consult the Cabinet Secretary on who and why to co-opt.

(Question, that the words to be left out be

left out, put and agreed to)

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THAT, Clause 12 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph (k) ─ “ (ka) in consultation with the disciplined services, develop criteria for the absorption of the trained members of the Service in the disciplined services and in other government institutions.

The justification for this is that there is a presidential directive that NYS graduates be absorbed in the military and disciplined forces. As soon as they are done with the training, they should be given opportunity or priority to be absorbed in the disciplined forces.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this is a very good amendment. When recruiting for the disciplined forces or any other Government institution, priority should be given to the youth who have graduated from or are serving in the NYS.

This will help the country to mop up youth from all the constituencies. We will give them an incentive to join NYS so that they can give us the numbers we require.

I beg to support the amendment.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: There is a further amendment which is proposed in Clause 12

(3)

by Hon. Ojiambo Oundo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, Clause 12 of the Bill be amended in subclause (3) by deleting paragraph (c) and substituting therefor the following new paragraph-

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I am opposing this amendment for one simple reason. Initially, NYS started and ended with the Director-General. We have brought on board an institution which oversees the running of this particular institution. His amendment intends to give more powers to the Director-General than the overseeing body which is the council. I am appealing to my brother to withdraw that amendment. I have a problem with it as the Chair of the Committee.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this Bill is before this House because of the reforms in the NYS. We want to have an independent council. That is why we denied the Cabinet Secretary the opportunity to be referred to in one way or the other. I oppose this amendment. We do not want to cause more conflict between the council and the Director-General.

Clause 16

THAT, Clause 16 of the Bill be amended−

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this is a very good amendment. The mess which is in NYS took place when we brought the Director- Generals from outside like Mr. Githinji, Mr. Rugut and the current one who is currently in court. We want to motivate and create an environment whereby somebody who is senior in rank in NYS to one day aspire to be the Director-General. This amendment fits and I support it.

Clause 19

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: I see a proposed amendment by Hon. Ojiambo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, Clause 19 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word “five” and substituting therefor the word “six”.

The reason is that five years looks tied to an elective calendar. We want to give the Director-General some bit of independence. Secondly, most constitutional commissions provide a term of six years. I wanted to harmonise this term with the ones of the constitutional commissions. I spoke to the Chair and he has no issues with the amendment. I seek the support of the House to amend Clause 19 as indicated in the Order Paper.

(Question, that the word to be left out be left out,

put and agreed to)

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THAT, Clause 36 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by inserting the word, “equipment” immediately after the words “any article”.

The justification for this amendment is that the NYS has a number of equipment and properties. We gave guidelines on what happens when you destroy these properties. There is a penalty of either payment or punishment in order to protect those properties.

(Question, that the word to be inserted be inserted,

put and agreed to)

Second Schedule

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Oku.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I proposed an amendment. I had discussed with the Chair of the Committee and we concurred with regard to the ranking structure. It is quite heavy. The amendment I propose to move is to reduce the ranking.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Oku, just hold your horses a little bit.

Let us have the Chair of the Committee.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, we consulted and agreed on the First Schedule not the Second Schedule. What he is saying is true. In the military, there are 17 ranks, but in the National Youth Service, they have given us 21. We want to reduce that with regard to the subordinate officers.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman give us time to consult. We have discussed that amendment and we are in agreement. Give the Chair of the Committee and the Member proposing the amendment time to consult to firm up the amendment.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Once you agree on it, we can then do the approval so that we move together.

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THAT, clause 2 of the Bill be amended in the definition of the term “disciplined service” by inserting the words “Kenya Coast Guard Service” immediately after the words “Kenya Wildlife Service”.

The justification for this is, we have passed the Act for Coast Guards. We only wanted to recognise coast guards as part of the disciplined forces.

(Question, that the words to be inserted

be inserted, put and agreed to)

Hon. Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the National Youth Services Bill and its approval thereof with amendments.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Member, hold on a little we re-organise the bit on recommittal. Hon. Chair, consult with the Table.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the National Youth Services Bill and approved the same with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of the whole House be amended by inserting the words subject to recommittal of the First Schedule and I request Hon. Oku Kaunya, the former state administrator to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I second the recommittal.

THAT, the First Schedule be amended by deleting the following items:

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I second this. The import of this is that the ranking structure was too heavy. For disciplined forces, the question of command and control is very important and it should be sharp. For example, we have 17 rankings in the military, when you go to this particular ranking initially, we had 21.

So, we have done away with some of the ranks like the Senior Sergeant Major and Sergeant Major in some of the units. In the National Police Service, we now have 14 ranks. The idea is to reduce the rankings. Thank you.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out,

put and agreed to)

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: I call upon the Mover to move reporting.

The Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the National Youth Service Bill, National Assembly Bill No.26 /2018, and its approval thereof with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the National Youth Services Bill, National Assembly Bill No. 26/2018 and approved the same without amendments. Thank you.

The Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House does agree with the Committee in the said Report. I also request Hon. Sankok, Member No.001, to second the Motion for the agreement with the report of the Committee of the whole House as a Member of the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I support. The Leader of the Majority Party does not know that I have been in the national Government. Hon. Kaunya and I wore uniforms and rose through ranks. We are disciplined officers. Discipline is not an act, but a habit. So, the organisational structure and command is in order.

I fully support. Thank you.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Very well. Hon. Members, I direct that we move on to the next business on the Order Paper.

Next Order.

THAT, taking into consideration the findings of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security in their Report on the Vetting of the Nominees for appointment as Vice-Chairperson and Members of the Public Service Commission, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, December 4, 2018, and pursuant to the provisions of Article 233 (2) of the Constitution and Sections 3 and 5 of Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act, 2011 this House approves the appointment of the following to the Public Service Commission:

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for this opportunity. I second.

In the vetting exercise we did as the Departmental Committee of Administration and National Security, we found all the nominees were quite qualified in line with the Constitution and the Public Service Commission Act, No.10.

In terms of experience, all of them had good grounding public service experience in various institutions. As the Chair has pointed out, in future when vetting public officers, we should ensure that the list of all those appointees to the various commissions in Chapter 15 and other independent offices in the Constitution is based on the provisions of Article 250 (4) . This provision requires that a vetting exercise of this kind should consider in totality the appointments in all commissions.

Therefore, it is important in future, when we have the full list, to look at regional and ethnic balance properly.

However, as it stands, looking at the qualifications in terms of the requirements of the Constitution, the Act and experience; the Members listed met the requirements and we recommend this House to approve their appointments accordingly.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I second.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. ole Sankok.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. On the outset, the Committee has done a marvelous job and I support the Report. I have interacted with some of these nominees in the past and they are men and women of integrity. I am sure they will spearhead the changes required in the public service, especially in employment, regional balancing and ensure the two-third gender threshold is maintained in the appointive positions.

This is because, unlike in the elective positions, in the appointive positions, everybody tables their own qualification and curriculum vitae and people are given those jobs based on merit. I can see the list of the nominees has gender balance and there are women of integrity, like Ms. Charity Seleina Kisotu, Dr. Joyce and Dr. Mary. I have no doubt in my mind that they will spearhead changes required in the Public Service Commission, which all public servants go through.

I also support this Motion because of the regional balance that is here. In this Commission, I can see South Rift, Nyanza, Northern Kenya and North Rift represented. That is what the drafters of our Constitution had in mind when they said that we should consider regional balance.

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the vetting of the nominees as Vice Chairperson and members of the PSC. I have personally gone through the list of the nominees and checked their curriculum vitae. Actually, I have found out that the nominees’ curriculum vitae are very excellent. Their academic performance is beyond expectation. As a Committee, we actually approved that they are up to the task. I believe that the nominees will take up the task

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Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Before I support the Report, I am a bit worried after listening to a Member of the Committee. We have a list of names without any indication of the regions they come from. We are now hearing it from a Member of the Committee that regions are not balanced. My good friend, Hon. Sankok, judged the proposed members to the Commission by name and said that there was regional balance. A Member of the Committee says that regions are not balanced.

Looking at the names in the Report, there is no indication of a person with disabilities or a youth. The challenge in the country today is unemployment of the youth. The leading employer in this country is the Public Service Commission. If we have a Commission with no youth representative, the youth of this country are doomed. We will not reject the Report but next time, it is important for us to ensure that this lead Government employment agency has youth representation.

Eighty per cent of the people on this list - and I know some of them - are retirees. They have educated their kids, employed their kids and raised their families. They do not feel the pain of the youth. We need to go an extra mile and allow the youth to sit in most of those commissions so that they can defend their own interests. If this trend continues, the youth will continue crying while the retirees continue benefiting.

I recommend that next time we need a very clear indication in the Report. If the first person is a youth, let it be indicated that he or she is a youth and where they come from so that we can see the regional balancing in the Report.

I support the Report. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Very well. Let us have Hon. Wachira Kabinga.

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to also support this list of nominees.

I would like to thank and congratulate the nominating authority for ensuring that this time there was a serious attempt to ensure regional balance and he looked at marginalised areas. We could not have everybody represented in this list but having participated in the exercise that vetted the list of nominees, I can confirm that the Committee was very serious in looking through the list that was presented before it. As our Chairman said, we were particularly interested in ensuring that we complied with Article 250 (4) of the Constitution.

We even went further to also look up the names of the actual applicants on the internet. We were satisfied that the final list that was presented truly reflected what one would want to see in a public service commission. We not only looked at the regions but we also went deeper to ensure that we considered those counties that have traditionally been left out in some of those appointments. We were quite encouraged to see counties like Narok, Tharaka Nithi out of the larger Meru and Kirinyaga out of the larger Central region. This was very encouraging.

We also looked at the diverse experience that those nominees possessed in the public service and the private sector. There were also nominees from the universities. We were particularly impressed by the nominee from Kirinyaga who has a lot of experience in procurement at the university. There was also Mary who came from the University of Nairobi. We expect that we will have a vibrant PSC that will reflect what Kenyans would want to see.

Kenyans today want to see people nominated because of their abilities. They want to see people who will get in there and work for Kenya not for some certain sections of the country. For this reason, we are heading towards what we want to see. People are no longer worried about who is appointed. They are worried about that person’s experience and ability to deliver the services. That is what we looked for.

We were encouraged by the composition of the nominees, their experiences and knowledge. We are very hopeful that this team will move in and make a lot of changes in the public service. We listened to some of them. They have very nice ideas. We pray and hope that when they get to their offices, they will carry those ideas with them. They had ideas on automation and reengineering the public service in this country. If they implement what they promised us during the vetting exercise, we have no doubt that there will be a lot of changes in this country. People will no longer be worried about who is getting appointed through the PSC because they showed a lot of dedication.

As I said, we only needed a certain number of commissioners. Not everybody could be represented. In total, having looked at other commissions and having gone by Article 250 (4) of the Constitution, we are certain that Kenya is heading to a situation where all communities will, in one way or another, be represented in all the commissions. If we do so, we will no longer have the feeling that some people are left out.

I truly and fully support this list of nominees and hope that they will be appointed. I also pray that these nominees will do what they promised to do during the vetting exercise.

Let me confirm that as a Committee, we took time. We did not just go there to sit and look at names. We sat late into the night to ensure that we considered all the things that people would expect. For that reason, I hope that as my colleagues have just said, future appointments will look at the youth and people with disabilities. From the list of applicants that we saw, unfortunately, we did not come across qualified youth or people with disabilities. They were left out. We encourage that in future, our youth and people with disabilities should apply for those jobs so that when they come to Parliament, they are represented.

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Asante sana, Naibu Spika wa Muda kwa kunipatia fursa hii kuchangia Hoja hii ambayo inaangazia walioteuliwa kwenye Tume hii. Kuna jambo ambalo limenifurahisha zaidi kutoka kwa mwanakamati ambaye amezungumza sasa hivi. Amesema waliangazia hawa wote ambao waliomba kazi hii na wakawaona ni watu wa tajriba kubwa. Hakika wanaweza kufanya kazi nzuri ili kutoa mchango mkubwa katika Serikali yetu ya Kenya.

Nimeiona kazi ambayo dada Charity alishiriki wakati wa nyuma. Tuliona akifanya kazi kwa njia nzuri. Vile, Balozi Salma alikuwa akifanya kazi kama balozi. Tumeiona kazi yake. Alitoa mchango mkubwa sana katika nchi hii ya Kenya. Kwa hivyo, naunga mkono Hoja hii na kupongeza Kamati hii. Tutapitisha wale ambao wamefanyiwa vetting ili waanze kazi na kutoa mchango katika Serikali yetu ya Kenya.

Asante sana, Mhe. Spika wa Muda kwa kunipatia fursa hii ili nichangie katika mambo haya. Narudia kusema kuwa ni lazima Kamati iangalie vigezo fulani ambavyo vimetajwa. Waheshimiwa wenzangu wanaweze kuangalia hali ya vijana na walemavu.

Pia, nasihi vijana na walemavu watume maombi wakati nafasi kama hizi zinapotangazwa. Sharti maombi yao yaambatane na zile kanuni ambazo zitahitajika.

Kwa hayo machache, nashukuru kwa kunipatia fursa hii. Naunga mkono hawa ambao wamewekwa hapa wachaguliwe.

Asante, Mhe. Spika wa Muda. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Onyiego Osoro, Member for South Mugirango.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support the Report by the good Committee on the vetting of nominees for appointment of our good people to the Public Service Commission. I would like to commend the work that this Committee is doing. This is the second time I have seen their report. We saw a

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We do not have our cards. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: You cannot contribute without your cards. You know the Speaker’s decision on this. If you do not have your cards, it is too bad, Hon. Members. The only way to attract the Speaker’s attention is through slotting in your card.

Proceed, Hon. Onyiego.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. It is good you defend us very well.

I was talking about what Hon. Sankok talked about and that is, persons living with disabilities. I believe that much of these processes were done according to the law. Advertisements were placed. As I said, some jobs require education and experience. It is not about physical capability and your looks. Some jobs require you to be learned and have some experience. We appreciate the contributions made by the persons who are living with disabilities like the sharpest Hon. Sankok.

However, that cannot be the only requirement for you to be appointed or placed in a certain area. You need something extra. You need education and experience. That is the direction we should take. We should stop looking for people from our tribe in the list of nominees. We need to look at the curriculum vitae. We should stop, for instance, looking at a list of nominees and then asking whether there is a young man or not. We need to start looking at the nominees from the point of education and experience. That way, we will help this country go to greater heights.

In conclusion, I commend the Committee and fully support the Report of the Committee. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Osoro, you have now become a crusader of women’s rights. However, you have said that they should prepare for these positions by going to school to compete competitively in all the fields.

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Thank you so much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me the opportunity to contribute. I want to bring an element that Mheshimiwa Osoro has mentioned. He has said that there are some positions that the youth cannot hold because of lack of experience. How can we pass the baton of leadership to another generation, if we do not give our youth the opportunities to gain experience? You get experience after you have been given an assignment to do!

Recycling senior members is the problem we have in this country. They have experience and education. By recycling them from one commission to another and from ambassadorial position to a commission will not grant our youth time and opportunities to gain experience. Though we support the list, we should remember that the youth need to be given an opportunity no matter how big the position may be. They can gain experience so that in future they take over.

We have affirmative action which favours the marginalised, minorities and the little educated. If we go by educational qualifications in this country, there are some areas we will not recruit people from because of lack of academic qualifications. We need to balance. So, it is good when my brother says that all these people have excelled in academia, but we should have affirmative action.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Lodepe hold on for just one second. There is agitation from Hon. Bady Twalib seated behind you. He seems to have a burning point of order. What is out of order, Hon. Twalib?

Mhe. Spika wa Muda, mimi na Mhe. Njagua tunaenda kuchukua shahada zetu kesho kule Mount Kenya University. Nakuomba kwa unyenyekevu umpatia ruhusa kwa sababu tunaitwa tukachukue vyeti vyetu.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Bady, you are out of order.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Affirmative action cares for everybody. You may be having a diploma or a degree certificate with experience and other factors that can make you a leader or can make you contribute to an assignment you have been given.

I support the list but let us give a signal to our youth…

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