Hansard Summary
Hon. Kangara criticised the perceived ethnic bias and lack of fairness in recent presidential appointments, citing historical injustices and alleged mismanagement by nominees. He warned that skewed selections could undermine confidence in institutions such as the Supreme Court and called for appointments that reflect Kenya’s diverse communities to promote national cohesion. Senators mourned the loss of lives in the Garissa incident, condemning security failures and urging national unity and prayers for the victims. They called for a review of Kenya’s constitutional security framework, criticized the government’s handling of police recruitment, and suggested procedural changes such as limiting speaking time to discuss the crisis more efficiently. Members debated several amendments to a bill, including reducing a ten‑year disqualification period to five years, expanding the Auditor‑General’s remit to assess value for money, and ensuring audit reports are submitted to Parliament and county assemblies. Additional proposals sought to insert “cost‑effective” into the definition of effectiveness and to preserve existing contracts under the new law. The discussion was largely procedural with differing viewpoints on the wording and scope of the amendments.Sentimental Analysis
NegativeTHE PARLIAMENT OF KENYA
THE SENATE
THE HANSARD
Thursday, 2nd April, 2015
PAPERS LAID
Hon. Katoo:
Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the
Hon. Gikaria:
Yes. The Chairlady is not around.
Hon. Speaker: Next Order.
PERSONAL STATEMENT IMPEACHMENT OF CABINET SECRETARY FOR PLANNING AND DEVOLUTION
Hon. Speaker: Hon. Linturi.
Hon. Linturi:
Thank you, hon. Speaker. I rise to make a personal
Hon. Speaker:
Hon. Members, let me understand the Members who
Hon. King'ola:
Thank you, hon. Speaker. I just want to appreciate the
Hon. Speaker:
No. sorry. You are out of order. Hon. Members,
Hon. King'ola:
Thank you hon. Speaker. When I was---
Hon. Speaker:
How come? That card reads hon. Cheboi but this is
Hon. Murungi:
On a point of order, hon. Speaker.
Hon. Speaker:
Hon, Murungi, intervention?
Hon. Murungi:
On a point of order, hon. Speaker. I do not want to
Hon. Speaker:
What are you saying? You want to contribute?
Hon. Murungi:
No. I do not want to alter or to say anything about it
Hon. Speaker:
Order, hon. Murungi. Hon. Members, the Eleventh
COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR
REQUEST TO BE EXCUSED FROM ALL PARLIAMENTARY ACTIVITIES
Hon. Speaker:
Order hon. Members. Take your seats. I have this
Hon. Speaker:
Is hon. Ababu in the House?
An hon. Member: He is not in.
Hon. Speaker:
Well, the clerks will take note of this instruction so
PROCEDURAL MOTION
EXTENSION OF SITTING TIME
Hon. Speaker:
Majority Whip, hon. ole Katoo.
Hon. ole Katoo:
Thank you, hon. Speaker.
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Thank you, hon. Speaker. I second.
THE NATIONAL YOUTH EMPLOYMENT AUTHORITY BILL THE HIGHER EDUCATION LOANS BOARD (AMENDMENT) BILL
Hon. Speaker:
Order, hon. Members! For the convenience of the House
APPROVAL OF APPOINTMENT TO COMMITTEES
Hon. Speaker: Hon. Katoo.
Hon. Katoo:
Hon. Speaker. I beg to move the following Motion:-
Hon. Linturi:
Hon. Speaker, let me, from the first instance,
Hon. Speaker:
Hon. Members who are standing, take your seats.
Hon. Speaker:
Indeed, I took the extraordinary step because I was
Hon. Speaker:
Hon. Members, we will go now to the next business.
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE
IN THE COMMITTEE
THE PUBLIC AUDIT BILL
The Temporary Deputy Chairman( Hon. Kajwang’): Order
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon.
Hon. ( Eng.) Gumbo:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Order
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I want to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Chairman, do
Hon. Langat: I do not see any difference, but since from morning he
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Express
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, in order to save
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. ( Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I thought it
The Temporary Deputy Chairman( Hon. Kajwang’): Thank you
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Chairman, I
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I agree with you. If
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): It does not
An hon. Member: On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Please, listen
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
An hon. Member: On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hold on.
Hon. (Dr.) Simiyu:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the Chair
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): That may be
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Chairman. I also
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Order! We are
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
I am just coming to that. I would request him to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I will still go
Hon. Gikaria:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I want
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): “Committee
Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have just
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): There is no
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have remembered
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): No;
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Member
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
The only difference between his amendment
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): No. You just
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Largely yes, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Before we go
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Dr.) Simiyu:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Chairman,
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Wakhungu:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Mulu:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. What we
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Order
Hon. Nyenze:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Okay. Shall I
Hon. Nooru:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, it is a matter of
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): It is very
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Thank you Chair. I stand for re-committal.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Well, when
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Let us have
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move :-
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right.
Hon. (Dr.) Simiyu :
It is similar to what the Chair has just moved.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): So, do you
Hon. (Dr.) Simiyu :
I withdraw my amendment.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Thank you
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Kajwang’): All right. Chair,
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Kajwang’): Let us have the
Hon. Lati: I support.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Dr.) Ottichilo:
Thank you. I support, because this work is
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Let us have
Hon. Makenga:
Thank you. I support.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Ms.) Changorok:
Thank you. I support.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): If all of you
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
I think this clause needs to be understood. The
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Member
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Thank you. I support this amendment. I wanted to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Nominated
Hon. (Ms.) Abdalla:
Thank you. I want to support this amendment
The Temporary Deputy Chairman(Hon. Kajwang’): All right.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right. The
Hon. Langat:
Ho. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Member
Hon. (Ms.) Chae: I support.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Well, I would
Hon.Nooru:
I do not see the reason why we should put the word
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Let us have
Hon. Kiptanui: I support.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Let us have
Hon. Lentoimaga: I support.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): If all of you
Hon. (Ms.) B. N. Nyaga: I support.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Mulu:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I oppose
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes, Member
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I also
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes,
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this is just to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, auditing of any
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes, Member
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes, Member
Hon. Baiya:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the same reasons
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Thank you
Hon. Bowen:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I stand to oppose
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Departmental
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I was trying to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): It is on page
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, we have already
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to Move;-
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Departmental
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I am speaking to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes, Member
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, while
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes, Member
Hon. Wakhungu:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, when the
Hon. Ochieng :---( Off-record)
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Wakhungu:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, when the
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): If it has been
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, actually I was
Hon. Members:
Apologize! Apologize!
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): The Chair
Hon. Ochieng:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, while I was away,
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): So are you
Hon. Ochieng: I am dropping it.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Thank you
Hon. Ochieng:
Thank you so much hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): We can read
Hon. Ochieng:
This is because there is somewhat a blanket provision
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Wandayi:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I wish to support
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Mulu:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I want to
Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal:
If we want the Auditor-General to do audit work
Hon. Gikaria:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I
Hon. Langat: Hon Temporary Deputy Chairman, I want to oppose
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): The reason
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I want to support
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Order! We
Hon. Bunyasi:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Can I take
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Order! Order,
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Ms.) A. W. Ng’ang’a:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right.
Hon. Kimaru:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): So, what is
Hon. Kimaru:
The judgement by the Chair that the “Noes” had it was
Hon. Ochieng’:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Do not be
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Ochieng: I wish to drop it.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Thank you.
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon.
Hon. Kisoi:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Nooru:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I oppose the
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
An hon. Member: He has not read the Bill!
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I consider an
Hon. ole Ntutu:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): We have said
Hon. ole Ntutu:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have been in
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right.
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, let me also request
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Departmental
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, let me explain.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): No! You have
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I oppose that
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Nooru:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, on the Order Paper,
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): This is now
Hon. Manje:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I am looking
Hon. Manje:
What is out of order is that if we continue this way, we
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Order! Order!
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, we will continue
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): No! No! No!
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the point
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I ruled him
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, since that
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Gaichuhie:
Yes, I am on Clause 48 (4). I want to say that the
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): This is a
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes,
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I oppose the
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Ochieng:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I do not think it
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Sorry! I beg
Hon. Ochieng’:
The hon. Member for Rarieda Constituency concurs
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right. The
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon.
way. The amendment by the hon. Chairman results into yours being dropped. Do you agree?
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I agree with hon. Gumbo’s amendment.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right.
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon.
Hon. Mulu: I concur.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Member
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. It is a
Clause 58
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Member for
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this is one of the
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (hon. Kajwang’): You are dropping all
Hon. Ochieng:
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (hon. Kajwang’): Okay. That is fair
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Member for
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Clause 60 is
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I beg your
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): hon.
Hon. Langat:
Do I move all my amendments?
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes, you can.
Hon. Langat:
They are on page 263. I beg to move:-
Hon. Langat:
We also have Sub-clause 2. I beg to move:-
Hon. (Dr.) Pukose:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I want to
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the Bill I
An hon. Member: We are at Clause 60.
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Oh! We are at Clause 60? My apologies!
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): That is always
Hon. (Ms.) Chae: My concern is:
I do not see the reason why the
Hon. Anyango:
That information is marketable and it will be part of
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo: I beg to move:-
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, my friend here,
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Chairman,
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I want to oppose
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Did you look
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I do not
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): No! My
amendment, that guy is again disciplined, but after he has been disciplined. There is another conviction that he can get into trouble with and for which he serves either by paying a Kshs.5 million fine or goes in for another three years or to both. So, what we will have created is a term getting to 15 years for that poor guy.
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, to start
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Chair,
Hon. Langat: I beg to move:-
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. (Eng.)
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. (Eng.)
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo: I beg to move:-
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. (Ms.)
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, it is not
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Chair.
Hon. Langat: I beg to move:-
I am proposing that we reduce that period from 10 years to five years. This is because it is like you are murdering that person to say if you commit an offence now, you have been punished in a court of law; you have paid the fine and in addition to those ones; you will never work again in any Government Office for a period of ten years. Though we want this thing to be deterrent, we also want the law to be humane enough so that we do not keep somebody out for long. We believe in correction. You correct somebody but do not kill that person.
(Question of the amendment proposed)
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I know there
Hon. (Dr.) Pukose:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, if we have to
Hon. Langat:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Let me give
Hon. (Prof) Nyikal:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have
Hon. Langat:
On a point of information, hon. Temporary Deputy
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Just a minute
Hon. Aburi:
Ahsante sana, Mhe. Naibu Mwenyekiti Wa Muda.
kwamba kwa sababu mtu mmoja ndiye amepewa kazi hiyo, wacha niweke iwe Kshs300 milioni. Kama ni ya Kshs300 milioni, anafanya iwe Kshs500 milioni. Kama ni ya Kshs500 milioni, anafanya iwe Kshs600 milioni. Lakini usisahau hiyo kazi ni ya Kshsh100 milion. Hiyo kazi---
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Aburi,
Hon. Aburi:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I oppose.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Thank you
Hon. Anyango:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the principal of
Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman,
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Thank you.
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, to be honest,
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): And you have
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
You have done both. Then you come out. After
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I am sure
(Question, that the word to be left out be left out, put and negatived) (Question, that the word to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and negatived)
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, before you put it
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I will hear
Hon. Ochieng’:
I adopt what hon. (Eng.) Gumbo has said. There is
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I hear you
be left out, put and agreed to)
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
My proposed amendment is---
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Your
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I would
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Okay.
Hon. Ochieng’:
Thank you so much, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Are you
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I am talking
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I am also
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Did you say
Hon. Ng’ongo:
I said for different reasons. I would request the hon.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Are you
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Sorry, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. With all
not see the reason why we should deviate from that. Let the Cabinet Secretary consult the Auditor-General. So, I oppose.
(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and negatived) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and negatived)
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
When we debated this Bill, we hoped that the Auditor-General is not only looking at figures, but also at things like value for money. He should look at whether the policy being prepared or implemented makes sure that the way the money is going to be used gives value for money to Kenyans. If you tell us that the Auditor-General cannot look at the efficacy of a policy, then we are going in the wrong direction.
(Question of the amendment proposed)
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support
Hon. M’uthari:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise
Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support the
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right. Just
Hon. Outa:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support the
Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support
Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman,
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Everyone is
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, my amendment to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): So, all of you
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
“(f) a contract subsisting between the Kenya National Audit Office and any other person before the commencement of this Act shall continue to exist as a contract entered into between the office of the Auditor-General and that other person”. I was in the process of requesting hon. Ochieng’ to step down his amendment in favor of mine. In addition to what he is proposing, the Committee is specifically making a transitional clause for any contract that existed before this law to continue upon the enactment of this law. Those contracts are live and not cancelled as per the proposal that was there in the Bill. My proposal is a better one.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I will give a
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, my amendment
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:-
THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting immediately after Clause 31 thereof a new clause as follows:- Audit reports to be submitted to Parliament and the relevant county assembly.
31A. (1) All reports of an audit shall be submitted to Parliament or the relevant county assembly.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): So, are you
Hon. Ochieng’:
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): All right.
Hon. Ochieng’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I move that this
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Hon. Langat,
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, because I lost my
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Thank you
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
I think the amendment to the Schedule was
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): I appreciate
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Member for
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to
THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended in the definition of “effectiveness” by inserting the word “cost-effective” immediately after the word “means”. What I am trying to do in Clause 2 is just to include the word “cost- effective” in the definition of “effectiveness”.
(Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the word to be inserted be inserted, put and agreed to)
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): Yes, Member
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
It is a small one on Clause 1. I hope that when
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Kajwang’): That one is
Hon. Katoo:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to
REPORT, CONSIDERATION OF REPORT AND THIRD
THE PUBLIC AUDIT BILL
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): The
Hon. Kajwang’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Mover.
Hon. Katoo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the
Hon. Waweru: Seconded.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): The
Hon. Langat:
Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Please, be
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Clauses 35 and 40.
Hon. Members: No.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): You need to
Hon. Langat:
I request hon. Kiptanui to second.
Hon. Kiptanui: I second.
(Question of the amendment proposed)
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon.
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
It was on an earlier point.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay. Hon.
Hon. Midiwo:
Thank you. I am not sure whether what we are doing is
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon.
Hon. Ng’ongo:
I really do not know what hon. Benjamin Langat
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon.) (Ms.) Shebesh): Please,
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon.) (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. Kajwang’: I do not profess to know everything about Standing
may propose any amendment to add, at the end of a Motion under paragraph
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes. Hon.
Hon. Midiwo:
I do not know if we have two Standing Orders but my
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Let us have
Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona:
Thank you. I want to agree with
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. Ng’ongo:--- (off-record)
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): No! No!
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would urge you
adjournment or debate being allowed; unless any Member decides to delete or amend any provision contained in the Bill. What is allowed is this: If you want to amend a provision in the Bill, and that is consequent upon a re- committal, it is if it came as a re-committal from the Committee of the whole House. That is what we have been doing all the years.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am very clear on
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Continue
Hon. Ng’ongo: Therefore, paragraph (3), which many of us are trying
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we have read
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Let us
An hon. Member: --- (Off-record)
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): No, it is my
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want hon. Mbadi to
The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Order,
Hon. Langat:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, this should not be a
Hon. Katoo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that
Hon. Waweru: I second.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes,
Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Next
APPROVAL OF NOMINEES FOR APPOINTMENT AS JSC COMMISSIONERS
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move
Programmes for the electoral circle in preparation for the Referendum of
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon.
Hon. Ochieng’:
Thank you so much, hon. Temporary Deputy
the names before this Assembly. We also know that the position available for filling up at the JSC was one. Prof. Mango had retired. We now have two names here. We have the names of Mr. Bett and Mrs. Winifred Guchu. That means one of the Commissioners, Rev. Kobia, was asked to resign. That is what was worrying us. Was that person asked to resign so that they can create space for gerrymandering of having two communities coming on board? These are the issues that we grappled with as we prepared this Report.
I also wanted the House to know that, for example, Mrs. Winifred Guchu was the Electoral Director of The National Alliance (TNA) for a while. However, we could not stop her because when this Assembly passed the Judicial Service Act three years ago, instead of providing what is in the IEBC Act – to bar anybody who has been doing politics in the last five years from holding a JSC position – they simply said that if you are appointed and you were a member of a governing council of a political party, you resign. There is a lacuna in the law. That is why we are allowing a political person into the Commission because the law allows it. As a Committee, we could not prevent her from joining the Commission. If this was IEBC, she would not join it because that law is very clear that if you have been doing politics for the last five years, you cannot be a member of the IEBC. So, these are the issues we grappled with when we prepared this Report.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we also grappled with the issue of national values and principles of governance, as provided for under Article 10 of the Constitution, to ensure that there is the face of Kenya in appointments such as these ones. This Report had a dissent because of the national values and governance principles. The principles of equality, freedom and participation, as provided for under Article 27 of the Constitution, are very important. That is why, as a Committee, we are saying that the President runs the risk of having very qualified people being brought and rejected by this House not because they are not qualified, but because the President keeps on choosing people from only two communities. We need to amplify the fact that this House is tired and has been watching. It will not allow the President to pit two communities against the rest of the country. The President is pitting members of the Kikuyu and Kalenjin communities against the rest of the country. Every time he brings names here, he brings names from the two communities.
As we approve this Report, we express our disgust at the way the President thinks and sees only two communities in this country.
With those many remark, I beg to second.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I hope all
Hon Kangara: On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I cannot see
Hon. Kangara:
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want your
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Please
Hon. Kangara: My point of order is: I am a member of the
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, this is a debate
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay. That
Please do not do my work, hon. Wandayi. What is the point of order hon. Kajwang’?
Hon. Kajwang’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, there are things
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, let me first and
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I think the
Hon. Mulu:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): What you
Hon. Mulu:
Sorry, I cannot hear you, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I wanted to
Hon. Chepkong’a:
I would like to clarify something.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay; you
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I was moving
Messrs. Waiganjo, Koech, Kajwang’, Mati, Cheptumo, Baiya, Oyugi, hon. (Ms.) Fatuma ali and hon. (Ms.) F. I Ali attended. Under Minute No. 44 of 2015: Adoption of the Report of approval of appointment of nominees as commissioners to the Judicial Service Commission (JSC). I wish to read this for the benefit of Members. “The Committee, by a majority, adopted the report on the approval for appointment of Mr. Kipng’etich arap Bett and Mrs.Winifred Waceke Guchu as commissioners to the Judicial Service Commission to the effect that the House approves them for appointment. Hon. Otsiula proposed the adoption of the Report, and hon. Cheboi seconded after which the Chairperson signed the Report. The attendance list is annexed here with. Hon. Kangara and hon. Kaluma dissenting from the Report.”
I told
- “Hon. Mutura’s dissent was based on grounds that the appointment of the two would not reflect ethnic balance, and further that Mrs. Winifred Waceke Guchu’s integrity was questionable; she had been part of the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) that was responsible for the irregular procurement of election materials and that was suspected in the ‘Chickengate’ scandal which was the subject of Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) investigations.”
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mulu,
Hon. Kajwang’:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am reminded
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Can I hear
Hon. Mulu:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I will try as
The other thing is the issue of regional balance. Even though we are supposed to look at regional balance in totality, it becomes very difficult for us, as a House, to have that picture unless we are told these are the commissions and these are the people who sit on them. It has been said in this country that when you look at the composition of the Public Service today, we have challenges. When you look at what we call “national representation”, there is a bit of bias.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. Mulu:
Thank you, Temporary Deputy Speaker. If we want to
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon (Dr.)
Hon. (Dr.) Shaban:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker
The Temporary Deputy Speaker ( Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. Oyoo:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Is
she knows that all the people from Nyanza represent professional bodies? The appointments to be done now are two. These are the appointments we can debate. Those are the two who represent professional bodies.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon.
Hon. ( Dr. Shaban:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, it is important
Hon. Kajwang’:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I wish
with pieces of land, that would have been something else. He applied for land that he knew was forest land. This land was gazetted. It has been gazetted since 1960s, before I was born. He could not have said that he did not know that this was forest land. Since he found himself with a piece of land, it is very difficult to convince Members of this House that he was too lucky a Kenyan; that he just found himself with pieces of land in the Mau Forest. First of all, let us deal with this nominee in the spirit in which we have decided in the last two weeks, that we be serious about integrity and Chapter Six of the Constitution on leadership and integrity.
In terms of his credibility, this nominee does not qualify even if he has all the schooling that we have seen. This is a person who has been in all banks. We asked him a simple question and you will find it on page 12. We asked him whether he could demonstrate that he had done anything for the public. His response was that because he has been on boards of schools and boards of banks, then he knows something about the public. One needs to show that he understands. The two nominees are going to represent not professional groups, but Kenyans. We needed him to say whether he had dealt with the public enough to know what he is qualified for.
The last one is about the lady that we are speaking about. With regard to regional balance, do not think about Luos and Kikuyus. Think about Kisiis, Kambas, the people of north eastern and Suba, where I come from. This assumption that because there is a name starting with the letter ‘O’ then Luos are there, and because Luos and Kikuyus are there, all the tribes represented should not exist. Let us think about those other people who make up the 42 tribes.
This lady has been nominated to the JSC. She is going to employ the Chief Justice and has shown so much partiality and political persuasion. If I was appointed to the JSC, I am sure Members would say that I am so “Raila” that I cannot do the job. I am partisan. If I am partisan, then I should do things which relate to my party. If you are going to talk about the JSC, there are so many Kenyans out there who have never gone into politics, never supported any party and can still do the right thing. Can the President give us another name? There are so many names. This is not a problem. We can return the names. Can the President give us another name, even if it is of a Kikuyu or a Kalenjin?
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time
Hon. Cheptumo:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. As I
Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. In the process of vetting these two nominees, I noted that they have a wide range of experience in very many areas. It is important for us to note that these two nominees have a special role to play in the Judicial Service Commission (JSC). The role of these members is to represent the public. That means they have to stand for the more than 40 million Kenyans. So, experience in public service is critical because it is going to facilitate their work.
Each of the nominees was able to clearly tell the Committee how they are going to play their role. We have had a very serious problem of late between this House and the Judiciary to the extent where we even invite the Chief Justice or the Members of the JSC and they do not appear for reasons I do not want to deal with here.
From their presentation, it was clear to us that these are persons who know that they are going to represent the public. They will even insist to the Commission that it is important for them to appear before the House.
Things have been said about nominee Bett. I would like to refer this House to paragraph 4 (7) on page 12 of the Report, where it talks about the illegal land allocation in Mau Forest. This nominee submitted an affidavit, attached as Appendix IX, affirming that he does not own any land in Mau Forest. As a lawyer, I know that if you swear an affidavit to state a fact that is the highest level at which you can demonstrate that you do not own land in a particular area. There is nothing better than that. This nominee has taken an oath and that affidavit is attached to this Report. Therefore, I would urge my colleagues that do not use the fact that this person applied for land in Mau to punish him. When he has sworn an affidavit.
On the second nominee, I hear my learned colleague, hon. Kajwang’, talking about this lady having been an official of The National Alliance (TNA). Fortunately, I was in the Tenth Parliament. We passed the law. You were also in that Parliament. We did not pass a law that excludes people who have served in political parties from being appointed. As we move forward we will need to amend these laws to deal with some of these issues.
Finally, the fact that it does not represent a balanced list is true. The Committee, on page 21, has recognized that fact and in Recommendation No. 3, the President should in future--- We have recognized it and it is part of the Report that in future, beginning from tomorrow and the day after, there will be more nominations and the President will ensure that names submitted to the House for approval for appointment reflect the true face of Kenya, failure to which the House will not approve them. That is the highest level at which we can commit ourselves as a House.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time
Hon. Maanzo:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for
Whenever somebody is mentioned, or the feeling in some parts of the country is that this person is not likely to deliver justice, the worst place they can be in is the Judicial Service Commission (JSC). So, let us have fresh names of people with no trace of any claim by anybody whatsoever, and we shall accept them.
I oppose. Thank you.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Let us have
Hon. (Ms.) Kiptui:
Thank you, for the opportunity. I support the
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Go ahead.
Hon. (Ms.) Kiptui:
Protect me from hon. Wanga. I am on the Floor. I
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Let us have
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.
people would be picked by the people of Kenya. I am confident that the people of Kenya, through their representatives, would not do so.
Therefore, I urge my colleagues in this House that, as the representatives of the people of Kenya, we should speak loudly and clearly to the President and remind him that on Thursday he was here. He spoke to us and talked about national cohesion and national unity. He even apologised to the people of Kenya for the historical injustices that they have gone through over the years. One of the historical injustices is skewed appointments, where some communities feel excluded, and feel like they are outsiders in this country. It does not make any difference if you talk about Nyanza being represented. Those are some of historical injustices; if at all the people of Nyanza are over-represented in whatever Commissions--- Even then, we are not talking about regions. We are talking about communities. I want to restrain myself from mentioning the communities by names, because Kenyans know them. It would really be un-parliamentary to target two communities and mention them by name, especially after going through what we went through in late 2007 and early 2008. Hon. Deputy Temporary Speaker, if the President is serious that he wants to unite this country, all the appointments he makes must be seen to be reflective of the face of this country. We cannot sit here as a House and continue approving appointment of names that are clearly from two ethnic communities. We know where the President and the Deputy President come from. This is polarizing this country. That is why I am happy with the Member of Parliament for Makadara. That is why he is representing a cosmopolitan constituency.
Hon. Kamanda:--- (Off-record)
Hon. Ng’ongo:
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, protect me
Country. The nomination should not have been made from the dominant community in Baringo County. I want to add that this man left the Central Bank of Kenya at the age of 35. That is indicative of non-performance. We have to face it. There is no organization that can retrench a young man of the age of 35, if he is performing, just because of restructuring. This guy is a non– performer. I do not want to talk about corruption because that has been spoken to, but let me come to Ms. Guchu. Even if the law does not say one, two and three, that is why we vet nominees, as a House. This House does not only look at the legal technicalities. We also look at fairness and impartiality in the appointments.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Do you
Hon. Gikaria:
Hon. temporary Deputy Speaker, mine is to say we
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gikaria,
Hon. Midiwo:
On a point of point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gikaria,
Hon. Gikaria:
I have always admired hon. Washington. He has been
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time
Hon. Wandayi:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I
identifying and appointing judges to the Supreme Court is skewed from the word go, you are setting ground for anarchy. If Kenyans lose faith, or confidence, in the Supreme Court because of the manner in which the judges have been appointed, then you are preparing ground for chaos. I believe the President cannot go that direction. Therefore, it is in order for this House to return these names to him, so that he makes nominations which are going to be acceptable to Kenyans and not just this House alone. What I have said is correct.
Nigeria has just come out of a very hotly contested election. The Nigerian election has come and passed.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): What is
Hon. Nooru:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That is a
Hon. Wandayi:
Hon. Nooru is my Chair in some Committee
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): What is
Hon. (Dr.) Shaban:
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy
Hon. Wandayi:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, it is clear that Dr. Kobia’s
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Yes, hon. Kipchoim!
Hon. (Ms.) Kipchoim:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to
therein are mere allegations. If any of your constituents today alleges that you have stolen CDF money, you can find your name getting into such list. The names that were found on the list that was annexed to the President’s Speech to this House could be names of any one of us. The Members whose names are on that list will clear their names and come back to the House.
With those few sentiments, I beg to support the Report.
Hon. Deputy Speaker : Yes, hon. Member.
Hon. Kobado:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I thank you very much for giving
he was the Managing Director of Uchumi Supermarkets Limited – an institution that went under with him at the top. Two, he was a Joint Receiver/Manager of Muhoroni/Miwani Sugar Mills. He mismanaged that institution thoroughly and it has collapsed. This fellow was in the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) as an advisor – an institution that failed. This fellow, it has been alleged, grabbed land in Mau Forest and he is, a candidate, and even a customer, of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC). He should be there answering certain questions.
Now, let me come to Mrs. Winfred Guchu, an Executive Director of The National Alliance Party (TNA), the President’s party. She filed an affidavit in support of the President in the presidential election petition. She was a TNA agent in 2013 and a consultant for Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC), which is a rotten institution. She was also a Commissioner of the Interim Independent Electoral Commission (IIEC), which was involved in the “chickengate” Scandal. What is the conclusion hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker?
The President is working to shape the political terrain for 2017. We cannot mismanage institutions like this and get away with it.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Your time is up, hon. Kobado.
Hon. Kobado:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I strongly oppose these names.
Hon. Kimaru:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I stand to support
we have one Meru, two Luhyas, two Luos, two Kikuyus and one Kalenjin. So, when people are talking of regional balance, I would even ask them--- I would even urge hon. Ng’ongo to urge one of the Luos to step down, so that a Suba can be appointed. One of the Luos should step down.
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Please, desist from raising any temperatures;
Hon. Kimaru:
They come from the same region but Subas are
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Hon. Kilonzo:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise---
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
You are talking of regional balance. Your
Hon. Kilonzo:
Thank you. I rise to support these two individuals for
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Members, everybody now wants to
Hon. Kilonzo:
When you look at Mr. Bett, he is a director of Coca
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Kilonzo, are you reading, yet you know
Hon. Kilonzo:
No, I am not reading, hon. Deputy Speaker.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Proceed, your time is getting spent.
Hon. Kilonzo:
If we are to address the issues and the challenges
period in our country, I think these are the individuals we need within the JSC.
Hon. Ng’ongo: How do you know?
Hon. Kilonzo:
I know from the report.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Order hon. Members! Allow him to have his
Hon. Kilonzo:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, protect me from the Chairman
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Members, do not raise your
Hon. Kilonzo:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, all said and done, I want to
Hon. Onyura:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I stand to oppose
At page 7, it is pointed out that even the Committee felt that this list does not represent the face of Kenya. The Committee tells us that in future--- We do not want to be told about the future or tomorrow, which, as we know, never comes. If an anomaly has been detected or seen, deal with it now. Do not start telling us about the future or tomorrow, which we know will never come. Because of all these observations that I have made, I strongly oppose the nomination of these two candidates.
Hon. (Ms.) Korere:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Order Members!
Hon. (Ms.) Korere:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, it is only yesterday we
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Order, hon. (Ms.) Korere. There is a point of
Hon. (Ms.) Kajuju:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Members, you know how we do it.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Chepkong’a! Order, Members! We
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I wish to thank all the
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Members, can we allow the Mover to
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, when the Committee sat to
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Members, you have canvassed this point
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I will be very brief. This
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Order Members! This is information that you
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, there are 11 Luhyas
An hon. Member: On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Order Members! I am not entertaining any
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, the composition of
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Order Members! Hon. Members, you have
Hon. Chepkong’a:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I will not repeat it to the
Hon. Members: Division! Division!
The Deputy Speaker:
All right, Members. You have the numbers.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Order Members! Please, you can now move
END OO JCK PP-02.04.2015
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Order, hon. Members! Numbers do not lie.
An hon. Member: My card is not showing!
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
No! No! If it is not, then you come with your
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Members, anybody coming to register here
An hon. Member: It is not going to show!
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
No, it will show. If there is any interference,
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
We are also physically doing the head-count
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Members, these are the results of the
AYES: Messrs Nakara; Ms. F. I. Ali; Messrs Limo, Lomwa; Ms.
NOES: Messrs Midiwo, Lempurkel, Oyoo, Wandayi, Aden, Oyugi,
ABSENTION: Ms. Banticha and Mr. Mohamed Diriye.
ADOPTION OF THE SECOND REPORT OF POWERS AND PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE
Hon. Cheboi:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I am fairly ready to
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
I believe the Members are in agreement with
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Maanzo, what is your point of order?
RATIFICATION OF EIGHT INTERNATIONAL CONVENTIONS AND PROTOCOLS
Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona:
On a point of order, hon. Deputy
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
What is your point of order, hon. Millie? I
Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona:
On a point of order, hon. Deputy
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Thank you, hon. Millie Odhiambo. We hear
Hon. Kamanda:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I appreciate your
will read out all of them because other countries have already ratified them. It is only Kenya which has not ratified them.
RATIFICATION OF EIGHT INTERNATIONAL CONVENTIONS AND PROTOCOLS
Hon. Kamanda:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following
1976 (LLMC 1976);
Australia, we were challenged by that country’s Government to have these protocols and conventions ratified. When we came back, as a Committee, we talked to the Cabinet Secretary and we were told that the documents were before the Cabinet. We fast-tracked them and now here they are.
If we pass these documents, they will help us generate revenue and enable our people to get jobs across the country. The conventions and protocols are for the benefit of our country.
With those remarks, I beg to move and call upon my Vice-Chairman to second the Motion.
Hon. Deputy Speaker: He may proceed.
Hon. (Amb.) M. Maalim:
Hon. Speaker, I rise to second the Motion.
Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona: On a point of order.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
What is your point of order hon. Millie?
Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker.
bind this country on very serious issues in one sentence. This is doing a disservice to that Act. I would, therefore, want to call on your kind office if you could, please, consider giving a substantive ruling as to whether we can move this Motion or whether it is, indeed, proper that we bring conventions as miscellaneous amendments. This is because there are many other conventions that will come before this House.
Thank you.
Hon. Kimaru:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, in as much as we have so many
Hon. (Eng.) Mahamud:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. With
Hon. Anami:
We are the peoples’ representatives. Some of these
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Members, I want to appreciate the fact
For this one, I beg that we go with the Committees’ recommendation which has had time to interact with these treaties.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. Members, next, we have the
MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER No.
Hon. (Dr.) Shaban:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move:-
some of whom have become part and parcel of the terrorist actions that have been going on in Kenya?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, it was just the other day when we had the Westgate issue. We have had incidences all over the place. Today, Kenya faces a crisis that requires us to work together, speak with the same voice and make the whole world know that Kenya is under siege. Even developed countries have been attacked. The occurrence of those incidences in Kenya is too much. We cannot go on this way. Sometimes, I feel sad and helpless. But I think something can be done. We do not want our country get to a level where we cannot walk, study or do our daily chores safely.
We do not know where else those people are planning to strike. Just the other day, we tried to change our laws, so that we can have prior information and the Government can take action as it gets the information. Today is the saddest day of Kenya’s history because of what is happening. I feel that, as Members of the National Assembly, apart from just talking and expressing our anger, we need to sit down and see how best we can work with the Government to make sure that, that does not happen again in our country.
Tourism has gone down. People in Coast Province, who depend on tourism, have really suffered. They are hungry. Their children are not going to school. Now, we have students whose lives have been curtailed and destroyed at this point when we thought that Kenya is on the right track. We cannot be talking about our country going forward development-wise if we cannot deal with terrorism and stamp it out once and for all.
I beg to move. I ask the Deputy Leader of the Minority Party, hon. Midiwo, to second.
Hon. Midiwo:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to second the
protect Kenyans. If we change nothing else, we must revisit the security structure in our Constitution.
We are dealing with a lot of insecurity issues because of ineptitude. The security forces have refused to work together. Garissa is nowhere near any border. We are now talking about building a wall so that we can fortify our country against Somalia. You will never find an answer in that. We are in Somalia fighting a war. We said we were going to a war in an operation called Linda Nchi. It is time to be in an operation called “Protect our Borders”. We need to militarize the borders as we find a solution in our Constitution.
We are going on recess on a week that the President’s Address was much debated across the country. Many of us said it was a good Address. What is shocking is that exactly seven days after the President moved the nation with a bold step; he has been mis-advised again to defy a court order as far as police recruitment is concerned. That is a tragedy. We are struggling to support the Government, but why shock us with an unlawful act? Some of the things we do---
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Thank you. You will continue with the
Hon. Kipyegon:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I am very
dying. I think this House should bring a Motion to bring back our security forces from Somalia.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Your time is up. Let us have hon. Abdikadir
Hon. Aden:
Thank you. On the outset, I wish to say that this is a very
Society, who have also shown a lot of commitment in standing strong to ensure that we come out of the situation a stronger nation. As Kenyans, we must stand in solidarity with each other and conduct prayers during this difficult time. It is a very sad day.
At this point in time, our enemies would like to see us blame ourselves and get divided. Those are things we cannot afford at this moment. We will sit round a table some day after this incident is behind us and take audit of exactly what happened. I want to urge my colleagues to be alive to the fact that, even as we contribute to this debate, our security forces and other Kenyans are on the ground. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government has been there since the very early morning hours of today, together with the Inspector-General of Police and other top security officers. Let us be careful about the words that we utter at this point in time. We will take count and reflect on the issues that caused this particular incident. But at this point in time, we need to remain united and strong, as a country. We need to go into prayers. We need to stand in solidarity with our security forces as they do their best to resolve this issue.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I can tell you that according to the messages that have come to us from the ground, had it not been for the very courageous and brave intervention of our security forces, the situation would have been worse and grave than it is. We have lost 70 lives. We could have easily lost hundreds of lives. Let us stand in solidarity with them at this moment. Let us pray and stand in solidarity with the families that have suffered losses. Let us stand with the people of Garissa County, who are today devastated. Indeed, I wish to send my word of encouragement and urge the people of Garissa to continue donating blood, as they have been doing since morning, so that the lives of those who have sustained injuries can be saved.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, today is a very sad day. I cannot say more, except to once again, send my condolences to the bereaved families.
Thank you.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Next is hon. David Kangongo.
Hon. Bowen:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to take this
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. David Kangongo, can we hear hon.
Hon. Opiyo:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. Owing to the interest
sitting here since morning, would it be possible to reduce the speaking time for each Member to three minutes, so that as many Members as possible may speak to this matter?
(Question, that the speaking time be reduced to three minutes for each Member, put and agreed to)
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Three minutes it shall be!
Hon. Bowen:
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I want to also join my colleagues
law is that, if I may ask? We are talking about loss of lives and you are talking about the Bill of Rights. Is there a right to die? I want to end on that note in order to give a chance to my colleagues to also contribute. I send my condolences to those who lost their lives.
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Fatuma Ibrahim.
Hon. (Ms.) F.I:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I stand to condole
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Your time is up, hon. Fatuma.
Hon. ole Lemein:
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for
saying that this country needs to fix security matters. Until we develop systems and have officers who are skilled through a lot of training, it will be very difficult.
I agree with my colleagues that the Police Force is facing a lot of challenges. A week or so ago, we had a challenge between my constituency and Tanzania. Whenever you approach the police, they always say that they do not vehicles or fuel. It is pathetic. It is disheartening to look at what is happening in Garissa. I have been following it up and I want to congratulate the KDF and the Kenyan police. They have done a good job. I want to join the rest of Kenyans in mourning the young people who have lost their lives in Garissa.
Hon. Kisoi:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. Let me join my fellow
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Your time is up. The Floor goes to hon. hon.
Hon. (Ms.) Kanyua:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I am also
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Next is hon. Maanzo.
Hon. Maanzo:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker, for giving me this
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Adan Nooru.
Hon. Nooru:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to join my
The real issue is: Where did the rain start beating us? Are we really learning from the first mistakes? We had Westgate, the Mandera attack and we have this one. Are we really learning from those past mistakes? Where did we go wrong? What is wrong with our intelligence system? Where are we training and where are the rest training? Look at our neighbours who are Africans like us and who have more or less resources and have the same knowledge and police workforce or whatever. They are able to secure their countries. Yesterday, I said that this country is going to be overrun. Some people were just laughing at me when I said that this country can be overrun by Al-Shabaab anytime. That it is not a laughing matter. It is not an issue of people moving from Garissa to Mwingi. They will still follow us wherever we are. People may be thinking that those people came from Somalia. They may have left Nairobi and went to attack Garissa. They are all over. They are here with us.
So, we have to be very careful. We need to address this issue, change our approach and have a special force which is specially trained to deal with those people.
With those few remarks, I support the Adjournment Motion.
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Hon. James Nyikal.
Hon. (Prof.) Nyikal:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. On behalf of
We have a structural problem in our security system. Internal security is, to a large extent, a police matter. When we have the information, we cannot respond. There is no much time and we must respond to the police reforms and do them. We cannot minimize the issue of corruption. I once listened to a BBC report and it was asked how come other countries that are in Somalia are not being attacked. The response was, because in Kenya, it is easier to breach the security system because of corruption. So, we must look at it like that. I have been in Government. I know, sometimes, when you we give resources--- When departments ask for resources, they are so huge that we think they are joking. That is the amount of money we need to put in our security system.
Hon. Sang:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I also want to join my
Hon. Dido:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. On the outset, I want to
able to break the back of Al-Shabaab. The question that we must continue to ask is: What about the homeland security? How do we secure our towns, our villages, our roads and our supermarkets? In this country, there is a lot of finger-pointing.
It is true that hon. Uhuru Kenyatta is the President of Kenya. But Uhuru Kenyatta will not do each and everything under the sun to protect Kenyans.
What I want to say is that, as Kenyans, we must wake up and be part of the security architecture of this country. If we are not going to be sensitive and if we are not going to help our countrymen, this country will go down. For Muslims and our brothers from Northern Kenya, Wangari Maathai once said “If things around you are dying, know that you are the next”.
Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.
Hon. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Mule.
Hon. Mule:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker, for giving me this
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Your time is up! Hon. Waiganjo.
Hon. Waiganjo:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. On my own behalf
Hon. (Eng.) Mahamud:
Thank you very much, hon. Deputy Speaker.
As a country, we must know that Al Shabaab is out to destroy this country. We must strategize. We are now working without any strategy.
We are not detecting those people. As the President said the other day, they were detecting, disrupting and preventing Al Shabaab. Nobody is doing anything about those three terminologies. Nobody is detecting, preventing and disrupting Al Shabaab activities. We are only coming together to mourn when they do harm. It is unfortunate that the way the Al Shabaab are moving, they will bring disunity in this country. What we are hearing today is that they are selectively killing their victims. That is very bad.
It is high time that this country comes together and looks at the security issue as a national issue. There must be a conference that discusses the issue of security. What needs to be done? We must come up with as strategy to address the situation. The way we are handling it is no longer viable. The issues are so serious today to be left to the usual casual guys. Our security guys are normally very casual. It is unfortunate that today we are discussing this. I know that they have done some good job. They are trying their best. However, for us to avoid that happening again, we must address security issue. We must move from the issue of “business as usual” and this issue of being casual.
There is also the issue of corruption. The President talked about corruption. Just the other day, we got a dossier of people who are supposed to be corrupt. However, if you look at it, the worst corrupt institution is the one that deals with security matters. I know what has been happening in Mandera and other places. Unless we really deal with corruption--- Today, if you give information to the police, the information is sold.
We are in Somalia to secure that country. One can say it is our neighbour. We have an international obligation but we must secure our country. There is no moral authority that we have to secure a neighbouring country when we cannot secure ours. We are talking about building a wall. That is very primitive. We do not want a wall.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Hon. John Waluke, for one minute.
Hon. Koyi: One minute.
Hon. Deputy Speaker:
Yes, because it is time.
Hon. Koyi:
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker, for giving me this
now because we know the people and the tribes that are killing our people. So, we cannot pretend and say every time that we are sending condolences. When are we going to stop sending condolences? If it is religion, time has come to say no. We can divide. We cannot watch our people being killed by one tribe and then we say we are sending condolences and we unite as a country. There is no unity in this country. We can be divided today, tomorrow or any other day.