Thursday, 20th September, 2018

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate, today, Thursday, 20th September, 2018-

Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statement of Nyamira County Education Support Fund for the year ended 30th June, 2017.

Thank you. Let us move on to the next Order.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of my intention to move a Motion for Adjournment on a matter of definite urgent national importance, namely, public debt and taxation in Kenya.

Order! You have the necessary support. I will allow you at some point to move the Motion for Adjournment.

Let us move on to the next Order.

Order, Senators. Let us make progress. We have three Statements on the Order Paper.

Statement (a) is by Sen. Farhiya. She is seeking a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations regarding land and property belonging to the National Police Service.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No. 48, I rise to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations regarding land and property belonging to the National Police Service (NPS) , following a directive by His Excellency the President, for the police to vacate police lines, estates and houses leased by the NPS within 90 days.

The Committee should provide an inventory of all land owned by or held by the NPS in each of the 47 counties, including the value of such land and property and explain what the national Government intends to do with the said land and property once vacated by the police officers.

I am requesting this Statement because there is a lot of land belonging to the Government, including in very prime areas such as Kilimani and Kileleshwa police stations. In South C there is a large piece of land with small police posts. What will happen to that land? I expect this House to be more proactive than reactive since this issue will be the next major scandal in this country if it is not addressed now.

I thank you.

Sen. Linturi.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, allow me to ride on Sen. Farhiya‟s Statement to seek further clarification. The Chairperson‟s statement should also include information relating to the vacant houses that will be left after the police move to rent houses in other areas within the country.

There are permanent houses that have been built for the police in the past. What will happen to them? Will they be leased out to other people to attract rental income? What will the vacant houses be used for?

Order Senators. We have a number of Divisions this afternoon. As soon as the whips confirm to us that we have the numbers, we shall vote before we entertain any other business.

Meanwhile, keep the comments on the Statement as brief as possible. Thank you, Sen. Linturi, for keeping it brief.

Sen. Yusuf Haji.

Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, we will require about two weeks to come up with the inventory and also what the Government will do with the property that will be vacated by the police.

Very well. Proceed accordingly. Next Statement is from Sen. Pareno.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No.48, I rise to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries on the hazardous Ipomoea weed, which has invaded agricultural land in Kajiado County.

In the Statement, the Committee should explain-

Very well, Chairperson Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries, proceed accordingly. I am sure you have noted the request. As you are aware, under the new rules, you should liaise with the Senator to agree on the time when that Statement can be brought back.

The next Statement is also from Sen. Pareno.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 48 to seek a Statement from the Standing Committee on Tourism, Trade and Industrialization concerning the state of the East African Portland Cement Company (EAPCC) .

In the Statement, the Committee should explain the following-

Sen. Ole Kina.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing me to ride on this Statement requested by Sen. Pareno.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of the EAPCC is not something new. It has brought a lot of untold suffering. When people started losing their jobs in this Company, the Government ought to have been alarmed that this was going to create a big problem in the community.

There are about 500 Kenyans of Maasai origin coming from Kajiado and Narok counties who have been rendered jobless. These people think that they are being targeted because they are from one clan versus the other clan. It is this thought that this has raised political tension in the area and clanism, because when you find that a majority of the people who are being forced to go back home are from one clan, it raises the question as to why they are being targeted.

I wish that this Committee moves expeditiously to visit the site, to interrogate those people and meet with the employees. You are aware that there was a lot of politics about other companies being allowed to come in to this country. The EAPCC is a state corporation; something that we hope we can be proud of as being our own. We have all these resources; we have a lot of clinker and other raw materials. The people of Kajiado County should benefit.

I really support this Statement. I hope that those people who have been rendered jobless, who have been sent home--- It got even nastier to a point where people are being given compulsory leave. Unfortunately, they all have---

Conclude.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would really like, in conclusion, to encourage the Senator for Kajiado County who is here--- In fact, this House has got three Senators who happen to be from Kajiado. If they can all come together and support the Committee to ensure that if it is not a clanism issue but a real crisis, then a way is found to resolve the matter.

I support.

Sen. Seneta.

Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me a chance to ride on this Statement. First, I want to congratulate my sister, Sen. Pareno for having thought of this. The EAPCC is a very important State corporation. It is one of the companies that uses local raw materials. Talking of this company in Kajiado is like talking of sugarcane or coffee in other regions of Kenya. This is because all the limestone, gypsum and sand that is used for production of cement comes from Kajiado. Therefore, it is---

Conclude. This is not debate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is an important resource to us, as a county and as a country. Therefore, I call upon the Committee to kindly investigate what

can be done to help that company so that it does not collapse and go down like many other companies in this Republic.

Very well Senator.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wish you could have added me some two minutes.

No, Senator. You have already made your remarks, we are short of time.

Whips, do we have the numbers to do the divisions or can we give you a little more time?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, give us about five minutes to verify. We have 24 Senators in the House, but we just want to be sure.

Very well Senators. As we wait for the Whips to confirm the numbers which affects the Orders that have division, I direct that we---

Order, Senate Majority Leader. We have come to the end of Statements; there were three Statements in the Order Paper. Today being Thursday, I think that the Statement from the Majority Leader is customary. I will give you a few minutes as the Whips confirm the numbers.

Proceed, Sen. Murkomen.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am issuing the Statement on the Business of the Senate for the week commencing 25th September, 2018, pursuant to Standing Order 52 (1) .

Hon. Senators, pursuant to Standing Order 52 (1) , I hereby present to the Senate the business of the Senate for the week commencing on Tuesday, 25th September, 2018. As you may recall, on 21st June, 2018, the Senate, pursuant to Article 126 (1) of the Constitution and Standing Order No.31 (1) of the Senate Standing Orders, resolved to have its Plenary and Committee sittings for the week commencing 24th to 28th September, 2018, in Uasin Gishu County. The inaugural sittings of the Senate outside Nairobi will provide this House an opportunity to entrench the place of the Senate as the institution mandated to represent and protect the interests of counties and their governments, as highlighted in Article 96 of the Constitution.

Hon. Senators, we will also be accorded the opportunity to interact directly with the county governments and Kenyan citizens in a manner that is unprecedented in our history.

In this regard, the Senate Business Committee (SBC) met on Tuesday, 18th September, 2018, to, among other items schedule the business of the Senate for the plenary sittings in Uasin Gishu County. This is in accordance with the Senate Resolution

of 21st June, 2018, which will be held on 25tth to 27th September, 2018 from 2.30 p.m. to

Very well, Senate Majority Leader. Thank you.

Hon. Senators, as many of us as possible should be in Eldoret because our being there is not only historic, but it provides this country with an opportunity to see a national legislative House doing things differently.

Hon. Senators, we now have the numbers. I can see there are comments but ordinarily we have not had the tradition of comments on this Statement. So, I plead that

we vote before we get further hemorrhage. Thank you, Sen. Orengo and Sen. Malalah, for being considerate.

Since we now have the numbers for the divisions, I ask the Clerk-at-the-Table to call the next Order. Before she does that, we have Divisions on Orders No.8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. We hope to do this in the shortest time possible.

Next Order.

I now direct that the Division Bell be rung for one minute and then we proceed to vote.

One minute is over. I direct now that the doors be locked and the Bars be drawn.

Hon. Senators, get ready to vote.

Sen. Amos Wako, you are a seasoned parliamentarian. You know the Standing Orders when it comes to Division.

Hon. Senators, you may now proceed to vote. You have one minute to do so. Assisted voters to proceed and approach the Clerk-at-the-Table.

Order, Leader of Majority! How do you know that the Senator for Busia County is an assisted voter? Is there any other assisted voter? Sen. Poghisio?

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows-

We will repeat the process. I now direct the Division Bell to be rung for one minute.

I now direct that the doors be locked and the Bar be drawn.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows-

I direct that the Division Bell be rung for one minute.

Hon. Senator, prepare for voting. I now direct that doors be locked and the Bar drawn

Prepare for voting. Make sure you are logged in. I now put the Question; that this House adopts the Report of the Sessional Committee on the County Public Accounts and Investments on the inquiry into the

financial operations of Kilifi County Executive for the Financial year 2013/2014 (1st July 2013 - 30th June, 2014), laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 19th June, 2018.

Hon. Senators, you can vote now.

Order, Members. The following are the results the Division on Order No.10:-

I direct that the Division Bell be rung for one minute.

Close the doors and draw the Bar.

Order, Senators! I will now put the Question; that this House adopts the Report of the Sessional Committee on the County Public Accounts and Investments on the inquiry into the financial operations of Homa Bay County Executive for the Financial Year 2013/2014

, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 19th June, 2018.

Hon. Senators, you can vote now.

Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, Tharaka Nithi County; Sen. Kinyua, Laikipia County; Sen. Lelegwe, Samburu County; Sen. Linturi, Meru County; Sen. (Eng.) Mahamud, Mandera County; Sen. Malalah, Kakamega County; Sen. (Dr.) Mbito, Trans Nzoia County; Sen. Mpaayei, Kajiado County; Sen. Murkomen, Elgeyo-Marakwet County; Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., Makueni County; Sen. Mwangi, Nyandarua County; Sen. Olekina, Narok County; Sen. Omogeni, Nyamira County; Sen. Orengo, Siaya County; Sen. Outa, Kisumu County; Sen. Poghisio, West Pokot County; Sen. Wako, Busia County; Sen. Wamatangi, Kiambu County and Sen. Wetangula, Bungoma County.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:

I direct that the Division Bell be rung for one minute.

Draw the Bar and lock the doors.

Hon. Senators prepare for voting.

Hon. Senators, make sure you have voted. From the screen, it appears that there are about four or five Senators who have not voted.

Order, the leadership and the Whip of the Senate Minority side seem to be in a celebratory mood on some undisclosed news.

County; Sen. Poghisio, West Pokot County; Sen. Wako, Busia County; Sen. Wamatangi, Kiambu County and Sen. Wetangula, Bungoma County.

Order Senators. The results of the Division are as follows-

open the Doors and draw the Bar.

Order Senators. Before we proceed, a notice of Motion was given by Sen. Wetangula, the Senator for Bungoma County. In accordance with Standing Order No. 34 (5) , the Speaker shall appoint a time for the Motion. I now appoint the time to be 4.00

What is it Sen. Orengo? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Orengo) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Motion for Adjournment is a matter which is under the jurisdiction of the National Assembly. That does not stop us from talking about it. However, because the matter is live in the National Assembly, in the spirit of bringing harmony, we need not bring the Motion at about 5.00 p.m. because then we will be seen not to be acting in conflict. It is due to respect but---

Order Senator. Sen. Wetangula, do you want to say something in light of Sen. Orengo‟s remarks?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Motion for Adjournment is a matter which is under the jurisdiction of the National Assembly. That does not stop us from talking about it. However, because the matter is live in the National Assembly, in the spirit of bringing harmony, we need not bring the Motion at about 5.00 p.m. because then we will be seen not to be acting in conflict. It is due to respect but---

Order Senator. Sen. Wetangula, do you want to say something in light of Sen. Orengo‟s remarks?

some kind of harmony, let us leave a little time. Maybe by that time, the media will concentrate a little bit on what will be going on here.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand guided. I had the request that we get a little more time a little earlier so that we can address this serious issue. If the mood of the House is that we can do it a little later, I have no difficulty whatsoever.

I urge, hon. colleagues that I am not moving this Motion to compete with the National Assembly but as a matter that this House enjoys a lot of respect by Kenyans to have a voice on a matter of tremendous and momentous national importance. If you direct that we move a little later, I have no difficulty. I beg that the normal one hour for such a Motion will be too short. Give us a little more time so that we can ventilate as deeply and extensively as we possibly can.

I thank you.

some kind of harmony, let us leave a little time. Maybe by that time, the media will concentrate a little bit on what will be going on here.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand guided. I had the request that we get a little more time a little earlier so that we can address this serious issue. If the mood of the House is that we can do it a little later, I have no difficulty whatsoever.

I urge, hon. colleagues that I am not moving this Motion to compete with the National Assembly but as a matter that this House enjoys a lot of respect by Kenyans to have a voice on a matter of tremendous and momentous national importance. If you direct that we move a little later, I have no difficulty. I beg that the normal one hour for such a Motion will be too short. Give us a little more time so that we can ventilate as deeply and extensively as we possibly can.

I thank you.

I have heard what the Mover has said. Let us have Sen. Farhiya briefly.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I tend to agree with Sen. Orengo. I am also passionate about these issues. However, if we want to tell Kenyans something, and all the attention right now is on the National Assembly, I think it is prudent, for our spend of time and in terms of bringing this matter out more conclusively and have a better discussion, either we do it next week or the other week.

That is my humble request to Sen. Wetangula.

Proceed, Sen. Mithika Linturi, Vice Chairperson.

Proceed, Sen. Mithika Linturi, Vice Chairperson.

Mr. Speaker, Sir---

Are you moving the Motion, Sen. Linturi?

No, I am not; but allow me to say one or two things.

No, but you called my name.

I called you as the Mover because I cannot see the Chairperson; I cannot see the Mover.

Yes, and I deputize him, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. So---

Order, Sen. Linturi, for a moment. First things first; where is the Mover? This is a Committee Report, so it is either the Mover, who is the Chairperson or the Vice-Chairperson. I cannot see Sen. M. Kajwang,‟ who is the Chairperson. Therefore, Vice Chairperson, Sen. Linturi, are you ready to move the Motion? Is there any other Member of the Committee appointed by the leadership of the Committee?

Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir---

What is it Sen. Malalah?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have been in touch with the Chairperson, Sen. M. Kajwang‟ and he delegated the mandate to move the report to the Vice Chairperson or Sen. Olekina. Therefore, if the Vice Chairperson is not ready, Sen. Olekina can take up the matter.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Proceed, Vice Chairperson.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have been in Parliament for quite some time now and I know the procedure of moving Motions. I have never been afraid, at any one time, to face any matter that touches on the work that I do as a Member of Parliament.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the records of this House will bear me witness that I have been out of this House for a long time. I came back yesterday and that was my first time after more than a month away. When Sen. Malalah, who is not a Member of our Committee, says that that the matter was delegated to me, he is being insincere and his conduct is disorderly because he is not privy to what the deliberations of our Committee are. However, because I cannot run away from responsibility, let me say that as far as I am concerned and the last time we had an interaction on this matter, the Chairperson committed to move this Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is also a Committee that is Opposition-led. The reason I even had to come yesterday was because I knew that this is a report of serious public interest. Although I would not want to refer to social media and newpaper reports to shed some light on what transpired because I think is it incumbent upon us to inform the public---

Order, Sen. Linturi.

What is it, Sen. Murkomen?

What is it, Sen. Murkomen?

Mr. Speaker---

Leader of Majority, can you help us in that direction?

Leader of Majority, can you help us in that direction?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we discussed this matter in the Senate Business Committee (SBC) . With utmost respect, I am now more concerned than I was in the SBC because this Report, of course, has immense public interest. In the Committee, the question was raised about the purported conduct of the Members of the Committee---

On a point order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

I am on a point of order; we have to follow the rules of this House.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, the question of the conduct--- I want you to hear me on this issue because I will need your direction.

If Sen. Wako would excuse himself so that you can hear my point of order---

Very well, proceed.

One of the critical issues that was raised and challenged was the conduct and behaviour of this Committee. The Speaker promised to provide a ruling about---

Majority Leader, was the Committee challenged?

Not the Committee itself, but the Chairperson of the Committee wrote to the Speaker about allegations related to bribery or alleged bribery of the Committee. Upon receipt of that letter, the Speaker went ahead to constitute the House Committee on Powers and Privileges to investigate that matter.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we had a protracted discussion in the SBC – which is not meant for here – until we agreed that, in the meantime, let it be on the Order Paper for this Thursday. The behavior of the Chairperson not being here and the Vice Chairperson not being aware and all the stories happening around this--- How are we going to proceed to debate this Motion without your direction and ruling, as the Speaker on that question raised by the same Chairperson, whom I hoped would be here to move the Motion or explain whether he had written to the Speaker‟s Office concerning the issues raised about the conduct of the Committee?

been processed by the SBC chaired by the Speaker. The Speaker was on the Chair and he said that this matter should be in the Order Paper.

Now, when it comes to the question of conduct, that is a matter before another Committee. If you want us to discuss the question of conduct, then bring a substantive Motion and then we will discuss it, which is also very important.

Order Senators. I know that a few more Senators would want to rise on points of orders but I want to guide that we should move systematically for us not to engage in a theoretical argument to and fro.

First and foremost, is there a Mover for this Motion?

There is a Mover. If that is the case, is there a Seconder of the Motion?

If there is a Mover and a Seconder, the Motion ought to be moved. If any Senator wants to rise on a point of order against the moving of this Motion or secondment or debate, then they should rise at that point. You cannot start with the end. You start with the beginning and end with the end.

Who is moving this Motion? Who is the designated Mover?

been processed by the SBC chaired by the Speaker. The Speaker was on the Chair and he said that this matter should be in the Order Paper.

Now, when it comes to the question of conduct, that is a matter before another Committee. If you want us to discuss the question of conduct, then bring a substantive Motion and then we will discuss it, which is also very important.

Order Senators. I know that a few more Senators would want to rise on points of orders but I want to guide that we should move systematically for us not to engage in a theoretical argument to and fro.

First and foremost, is there a Mover for this Motion?

There is a Mover. If that is the case, is there a Seconder of the Motion?

If there is a Mover and a Seconder, the Motion ought to be moved. If any Senator wants to rise on a point of order against the moving of this Motion or secondment or debate, then they should rise at that point. You cannot start with the end. You start with the beginning and end with the end.

Who is moving this Motion? Who is the designated Mover?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir---

On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

What is it the Senate Majority Leader?

Order Senators, a number of you are engaged in disorderly conduct and we shall not allow it.

I am on a point of order.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when that letter was written to the Speaker‟s office, with regard to the investigation of the conduct of the Committee, the Speaker brought the information to the SBC and he said that he has constituted or he is in the process of constituting the Committee on Powers and Privileges to investigate that matter.

I am on a point of order.

Let me just complete!

Senate Majority Leader, you are a ranking Member of this House. However, aggrieved or agitated you are, you must play by the rules.

You should help me to appreciate, for me to guide the House. What is out of order if this Motion is moved? It is as simple as that. It is not time for debate. We have not reached the time for debate.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Senate Majority Leader (Sen. Murkomen) : I am on a point of order. You should know that this is not a county assembly.

Order, Senate Majority Leader.

Allow me to conclude what I am saying.

Order, Senate Majority Leader. What is out of order?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in my opinion, I think that when the Speaker---

I am on a point of order. You should know that this is not a county assembly.

Order, Senate Majority Leader.

Order, Senate Majority Leader. What is out of order?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in my opinion, I think that when the Speaker---

Order, Sen. Malalah.

He is a Member of the Senate and I respect the Senate Deputy Minority Leader, who is a former Member of the County Assembly---

time we will make sure that what we will pass here was not procured through an illegality.

Order Senators, we shall not gag anybody but if you play outside the rules, you will not be given a chance to address this House.

On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Wamatangi?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. For purposes of clarity, this Motion is on the Order Paper because that Report was tabled in this House. The person who tabled that Report is the Chairperson of the Committee. Therefore, it is important that we are honest when we are speaking about that even as we ask of the whereabouts of the Chairperson and the reason he is not here.

It is important for us to note that he, within the rules and after discussions with the Committee, tabled the Report. There is no way he would have tabled the Report to be owned by the House for purposes of onward processing via debate if he never had the intention of having it debated. That is a fact. Any attempt to impute that the intention of the Chairperson was not to have it intended is wrong for that is debacle.

Secondly, what would be wrong would start with the premise of what you said when you started. You said that the Report is in the Order Paper and can be moved by the Chairperson or the Vice Chairperson. Then, having said that, you can guide the Committee and the next step would be any other Member. But most importantly, this Report is as a result of deliberations and sittings of the Committee, which comprises of nine Members. As we sat---

Order Senator for Kericho County.

As the Committee, our decision was that the Chairperson would come and move the Motion---

Very well. Hon. Senators and colleagues, we are skirting around the topic. Those whose position is that the Motion should not be moved are not saying why. I only heard an allusion from the Senate Majority Leader that there have been certain accusations against some of the Members of this Committee. He went on to say that this matter has been referred to the Committee on Powers and Privileges. Do we have a Member from the Committee on Powers and Privileges in this House?

Yes!

Thank you, Sen. Wamatangi, you know---

As the Committee, our decision was that the Chairperson would come and move the Motion---

Very well. Hon. Senators and colleagues, we are skirting around the topic. Those whose position is that the Motion should not be moved are not saying why. I only heard an allusion from the Senate Majority Leader that there have been certain accusations against some of the Members of this Committee. He went on to say that this matter has been referred to the Committee on Powers and Privileges. Do we have a Member from the Committee on Powers and Privileges in this House?

Yes!

Sen. Nyamunga, would you want to update us whether or not your Committee is seized of this matter relating to this Report?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me take this opportunity to state clearly that the matter was brought to the Committee on Powers and Privileges and the Chair was the Speaker of the Senate. We deliberated on the issue and came up with the solution; that, first of all, the Chairperson of the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee (CPAIC) did not write to the Speaker concerning the same matter. So, it was like creating our own agenda and deliberating upon it. The Chairperson of the Committee never wrote to the Committee on Powers and Privileges and so, we could not have just acted on the hearsay---

Order, Senators! We must behave with decorum.

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Is the matter disposed off?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Senate Minority Leader, I have not given you the Floor.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Orengo) : I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thought you did.

You are a very experienced Counsel and legislator. You do not take the Floor by force.

Order, Sen. Wamatangi! What is it, Sen. Seneta?

Order, Senators! We must behave with decorum.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am a Member of that Committee.

You have already spoken, Sen. Wamatangi. Who is the other Member who has not spoken? Sen. Olekina has spoken.

Hon. Senators, I have a short Communication to make. I would like to acknowledge the presence, in the Public Gallery this afternoon, of visiting students and teachers from Nyakoiba Secondary School in Kisii County.

In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to them. On behalf of the Senate, and my own behalf, I wish them a fruitful visit.

What is it, Sen. Malalah?

You are a very experienced Counsel and legislator. You do not take the Floor by force.

Order, Sen. Wamatangi! What is it, Sen. Seneta?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think we will be out of order if we now start discussing another Committee, yet we are supposed to be discussing a Motion that is in the Order paper. You could give direction for us to have a supplementary Order paper, so that we can discuss issues of that other Committee.

Order, Senator! It is not out of order to challenge an Order which is in the Order Paper. There is nothing out of order even in deferring an Order for reasons. Also, the fact that a Committee of this House is seized of a matter is a relevant issue.

Order, Senator for Kisumu County!

Hon. Senators, I have a short Communication to make. I would like to acknowledge the presence, in the Public Gallery this afternoon, of visiting students and teachers from Nyakoiba Secondary School in Kisii County.

In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to them. On behalf of the Senate, and my own behalf, I wish them a fruitful visit.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to confirm, without fear of contradiction, that the hon. Member gave me express orders to delegate the moving of this Motion.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I was a Member of County Assembly (MCA) and learnt the rules of a legislature. I want to believe that, in future, it would be important for hon. Senators to be nurtured in the county assembly before they come to this House. This is because those who came here directly do not have the foundation of legislation.

What is out of order?

I think you made a ruling and asked if there was a Mover and Seconder. The Mover is Sen. Olekina and the Seconder is Sen. Faki. I think we are out of order, led by the Majority Leader. If we indulge---

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, allow me to say this. As I earlier said, I do not run away from responsibility. I am not a boy, I am a man.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe that this is a matter of public importance and it is important that we put aside the sideshows. We know that many people have interest in this matter and I plead with you to make a ruling at this juncture, so that we know if the Motion will be moved.

Today, I spoke with the Chairperson of this Committee, because I am the Deputy Minority Leader and he is a Member of my team. The Chairperson is attending to a patient and is not able to attend this Sitting. He gave me express orders to delegate the responsibility of moving the Motion to his Vice Chairperson, who is not a Member of my coalition or Sen. Olekina who is ready to move. Therefore, I would like to request the Chair to make a ruling on this matter, so that we can move on because it is a matter of public interest.

Thank you.

Order, Sen. Malalah. Could you clarify to me whether it is your submission that the Chairperson of the Committee told you to officially communicate, that he has asked his Vice Chairperson to move the Motion?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to confirm, without fear of contradiction, that the hon. Member gave me express orders to delegate the moving of this Motion.

No, you cannot delegate. I am asking whether you are informing the House that the information you have is that the Chairperson of the Committee has delegated the moving of the Motion to the Vice Chairperson.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg you to rule in favour of this House. That, if the Vice Chairperson is not ready to move this Motion, then the hon. Senator for Narok, my good friend, the Maasai warrior is ready to do it.

Very well! I have heard you. Vice Chairperson, why are you not moving this Motion, if what Sen. Malalah is telling us is the case?

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to draw your attention that in the ruling you will make on this matter, please note that this House, up to very recently, had stood that test of time and its integrity is not in question. I was at one time in the media and because of what is happening in the other House, they asked me: “How can you say that you are also clean?” I went further and quoted names of Members of this House. I said, “People like Mzee Haji, what will you give him to compromise him? People like Amos Wako who has been the Attorney-General for many years, what will you do to compromise him?” I said that this is a House of integrity.

Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beseech you that in whatever decision or ruling you will make, make one which will save the integrity of this House. Very serious matters have been mentioned which some of us do not want to be associated with. This discussion in this House is very unfortunate. We are discussing bribery, whether a Committee report will be discussed, who will move it and so on. I beg you, please make a decision that will sustain the integrity of this House.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Motion before us is of national importance. Standing Order No.213 (6) on a report of a Select Committee says-

“A report of a Select Committee including any minority report, together with the minutes of the proceedings of the Committee and such note or record of any evidence by the Committee as the Committee may consider appropriate, shall be laid on the Table of the Senate by the Chairperson, the Vice-Chairperson or by a member of the Select Committee authorized by the Committee on its behalf within fourteen days of the conclusion of its proceedings.”

Order, Leader of Majority.

anything, including that you are taller than you should be or you should have been born shorter.

If the Committee that is in charge of Powers and Privileges has not brought a report to stop the debate on this Report or to adjudge to have misconducted themselves, what we are doing now is washing dirty linen in public. Tunajianika in public. The Majority Leader is here. He is a seasoned lawyer and teacher. Unless those allegations have been brought and proved, we cannot rely on newspaper cuttings. We amended the Standing Orders to that effect. The Members who have been accused will find an opportunity to defend themselves.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could you please direct that this Committee presents this report, tables it, we debate it, pass or reject it? The day and time that will be appointed to discuss the conduct of any Member, we will also be here.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg you to rule in favour of this House. That, if the Vice Chairperson is not ready to move this Motion, then the hon. Senator for Narok, my good friend, the Maasai warrior is ready to do it.

Yes.

Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I urge that instead of spending our time in unproductive manner, like we have done for the last one hour, we should go by the Order Paper. Let the Vice Chairperson or anybody else designated move the Report. It does not matter who moves the Report. We will debate it and we are ready to debate it.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

I had already directed that I would give Sen. (Eng.) Maina and Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. an opportunity. I will stick to that. I have given this matter as much time as possible. Therefore, it is not in the interest of this Senate that we continue on these points of orders beyond now.

So, let us have Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. and then I will guide the House on how to proceed.

Order, Sen. Wamatangi!

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. What is happening in this Chamber today is not very good. We are the “upper” House. What the Committee is treating us to is also a comedy of things we should not allow them to do. More importantly, this Order appeared because we, as a Committee, agreed that this Motion should be moved.

As Senators and colleagues, we have agreed to a code that we cannot accuse our colleagues unless there is evidence which has been tabled and produced. We cannot rely on information that is out there in the public because the public will accuse you of

anything, including that you are taller than you should be or you should have been born shorter.

If the Committee that is in charge of Powers and Privileges has not brought a report to stop the debate on this Report or to adjudge to have misconducted themselves, what we are doing now is washing dirty linen in public. Tunajianika in public. The Majority Leader is here. He is a seasoned lawyer and teacher. Unless those allegations have been brought and proved, we cannot rely on newspaper cuttings. We amended the Standing Orders to that effect. The Members who have been accused will find an opportunity to defend themselves.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could you please direct that this Committee presents this report, tables it, we debate it, pass or reject it? The day and time that will be appointed to discuss the conduct of any Member, we will also be here.

Member shall be the Mover. Therefore, the hierarchy established in that Standing Order is that the Vice Chairperson moves in the absence of the Chairperson and only when the Vice Chairperson is not available, that is when an ordinary Member of the Committee moves. If you read that Standing Order properly, you will see the one to identify who else, other than the Vice Chairperson, to move the Motion is not the Chairperson but the Committee. Therefore, there must be some proof that the Mover of this Motion has been given authority by the Committee for reasons which the Committee has given or identified to move the Motion.

Having said so, Hon. Senators, I must admit that I am extremely disappointed, especially by the Senate County Public Accounts and Investments Committee (CPAIC), which ordinarily has been doing very well. However, what you have taken us through today is not good. Being very disorganized and speaking at cross purposes is not good. The Committee should have some form of collective responsibility. When there are some disagreements among Members, the best way of processing those disagreements is through a Minority Report, so that it is hygienic.

I, therefore, want to encourage Hon. Senators that, going forward, we should take our work seriously, because we are leaders in this country and this House is looked upon extremely seriously by its citizens. I do not want to pre-empt Sen. Wetangula‟s Motion, because the issues he is raising are issues which I am sure this Senate will also articulate itself on perhaps better than others have done.

Having said so, it is my considered opinion, having listened to all the presentations, that we are faced with a moral issue as a House which we cannot run away from. The moral issue is that a few of our colleagues who are Members of the Committee; including the Chairperson, Vice Chairperson and two other Members of that Committee have been accused of impropriety. I plead with the Powers and Privileges Committee to help this House exonerate our colleagues, if they are innocent and make us cleanse ourselves or otherwise dispose of this matter, so that we do not tie ourselves down.

Having said so, even if Sen. M. Kajwang' was here, with the kind of allegations that have been made against him as the Chairperson of that Committee and the matter is live before the Powers and Privileges Committee, it would be improper to move a report.

My reasoning is this. If, for example, the allegations are found to be true, then the credibility of that report would be in tatters. Therefore, this matter has to be disposed off fast because if the allegations are true, then I do not even think that report should come before this House. That is my view.

There is no emergency and, therefore, this matter is deferred. The Chair urges the Powers and Privileges Committee to expedite the matter, so that it is dispensed with and this Motion can be debated at an appropriate time. It is so ordered.

(Motion deferred)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have made a ruling and it stands. I only want to seek guidance and I hope Sen. Wamatangi will give me time.

Yes.

Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I urge that instead of spending our time in unproductive manner, like we have done for the last one hour, we should go by the Order Paper. Let the Vice Chairperson or anybody else designated move the Report. It does not matter who moves the Report. We will debate it and we are ready to debate it.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order Senator! We have already spent over one hour on this matter. As I have said, once the Motion of Adjournment is moved, you will have an opportunity and I can see requests here. We will give you early opportunity so that as you contribute on the Motion of Adjournment, you can also make remarks about this matter.

Let us now move to the Motion of Adjournment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing me to move the Motion that the House do now adjourn. As I embark on moving the Motion, may I have guidance on how much time you are allocating me to move the Motion?

Member shall be the Mover. Therefore, the hierarchy established in that Standing Order is that the Vice Chairperson moves in the absence of the Chairperson and only when the Vice Chairperson is not available, that is when an ordinary Member of the Committee moves. If you read that Standing Order properly, you will see the one to identify who else, other than the Vice Chairperson, to move the Motion is not the Chairperson but the Committee. Therefore, there must be some proof that the Mover of this Motion has been given authority by the Committee for reasons which the Committee has given or identified to move the Motion.

Having said so, Hon. Senators, I must admit that I am extremely disappointed, especially by the Senate County Public Accounts and Investments Committee (CPAIC), which ordinarily has been doing very well. However, what you have taken us through today is not good. Being very disorganized and speaking at cross purposes is not good. The Committee should have some form of collective responsibility. When there are some disagreements among Members, the best way of processing those disagreements is through a Minority Report, so that it is hygienic.

I, therefore, want to encourage Hon. Senators that, going forward, we should take our work seriously, because we are leaders in this country and this House is looked upon extremely seriously by its citizens. I do not want to pre-empt Sen. Wetangula‟s Motion, because the issues he is raising are issues which I am sure this Senate will also articulate itself on perhaps better than others have done.

Having said so, it is my considered opinion, having listened to all the presentations, that we are faced with a moral issue as a House which we cannot run away from. The moral issue is that a few of our colleagues who are Members of the Committee; including the Chairperson, Vice Chairperson and two other Members of that Committee have been accused of impropriety. I plead with the Powers and Privileges Committee to help this House exonerate our colleagues, if they are innocent and make us cleanse ourselves or otherwise dispose of this matter, so that we do not tie ourselves down.

Having said so, even if Sen. M. Kajwang' was here, with the kind of allegations that have been made against him as the Chairperson of that Committee and the matter is live before the Powers and Privileges Committee, it would be improper to move a report.

My reasoning is this. If, for example, the allegations are found to be true, then the credibility of that report would be in tatters. Therefore, this matter has to be disposed off fast because if the allegations are true, then I do not even think that report should come before this House. That is my view.

There is no emergency and, therefore, this matter is deferred. The Chair urges the Powers and Privileges Committee to expedite the matter, so that it is dispensed with and this Motion can be debated at an appropriate time. It is so ordered.

(Motion deferred)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have made a ruling and it stands. I only want to seek guidance and I hope Sen. Wamatangi will give me time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, because of what you have said, we need a timeframe. This matter should not just lay there without some direction as to when the Powers and Privileges Committee should report.

I understand we have not been having deliberations on this matter. Could you give some guidance other than saying “as soon as possible”? Even a week is too much, knowing what has been said about this particular matter. Could you give us some guidance about the timeframe?

Thank you, Sen. Orengo.

Order Senator! We are past 4.30 p.m. and it is time for the Adjournment Motion. Any of the statements that have not been articulated can be articulated in the context of the Adjournment Motion, which is a general Motion, so that nothing prevents us from articulating ourselves.

Sen. Orengo, on the timeframe, I spoke to the Speaker, Hon. Lusaka, and he informed me that the Committee met sometime last week. I am now informed that the Committee will be meeting again on Tuesday. I am sure it should not take as a more than a week or two before we get this matter disposed.

Hon. Senators, I ask for your indulgence because of our Standing Orders. We are now violating our own directives.

An hon. Senator: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order Senator! We have already spent over one hour on this matter. As I have said, once the Motion of Adjournment is moved, you will have an opportunity and I can see requests here. We will give you early opportunity so that as you contribute on the Motion of Adjournment, you can also make remarks about this matter.

Let us now move to the Motion of Adjournment.

Very well, thank you.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have brought this Motion to get my colleagues in the House to ventilate on two critical things that affect the people in the counties that we represent. These are the public debt and taxation on the people of Kenya. In so doing, we want to be factual, positive and look for solutions. We are not here for name-calling. We want this country to face the problems we are having squarely and address them.

The question of public debt in this country is now common knowledge. As a matter of fact, our debt portfolio now stands at Kshs5.3 trillion; a very astronomical figure. Our debt repayment stands at Kshs870 billion per annum. That is 70 per cent of our revenue. So, 70 per cent of our revenue goes to debt service. When a country gets to that threshold, it is cause for worry and concern by Members, particularly leaders in this House; a House that many Kenyans look to for solutions and proposals that can help.

Interest alone on our public debt today is Kshs400 billion per annum. Our grandiose expenditure goes to the big projects and the debt continues to pile. When the debt continues to run away in the manner it is doing, the country will start running into serious difficulties.

It is unfortunate that this House is not enjoined in the Constitution, to vote on such matters. I am sure this House would have advised the country differently and would have voted differently. Be that as it may, every time the debt balloons to the level it is doing, it undermines the remittances of money to counties and the development programmes in counties that we represent, the efficient delivery of services, the provision of health services and the provision of quality education. It literally undermines good order in the country. We have seen countries where law and order can get compromised because of mismanagement of the economy and the run-away public debts. As I move this Motion, I want to urge this House to opine to the Government that serious attention must be paid to the issue of debts. We sit in the Committee on Finance and Budget of this House and every day---

If I do not finish in 20 minutes, I may request for more time but I will try to condense myself in 20 minutes.

Madam Temporary Speaker, we agonize on which direction we are going. As the country is burdened with debt, we are now heading to a more dangerous direction.

The taxation regime in the country is also a cause to worry. One, if you over-tax the population, you chock production and undermine the ethics of virtually every production sector. Today, if you start hearing that transactions in the bank are attracting heavy taxation, it means that, we are telling traders and commercial enterprise players to start keeping money at home.

Order, Sen. Wetangula. You have not moved the Motion.

I already did that.

issue where the Government buys its own land from itself at Kshs1.5 billion; and all that is the process of corruption.

Madam Temporary Speaker, we know that it is very difficult to eliminate corruption completely. We know that there is corruption even in the United States of America (USA) and the United Kingdom (UK). However, they are intolerant to corruption such that when anybody is found transgressing the law and the moral fibre, you suffer for it. In Wall Street in the USA, there is a man called Mr. Murdoch, who manipulated trade and stole people‟s money. When they caught up with him at 60 years old, he was jailed for 150 years; and he is in jail today. Those kind of deterrent activities from law enforcement will reduce the activities of corruption that are hemorrhaging our economy day-in, -day out substantially.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I listened to the Debate in the National Assembly – and it is not normally our habit to debate what goes on there – but if you listened, every Member who stood up to speak, when it was a Woman Representative, they were only talking about National Government Affirmative Action Fund (NGAAF). They were saying that if that fund was not touched, then it is okay. Members of constituencies were saying that if the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) was not touched, then it is okay. How then are we representing people if we are only concerned with what makes us comfortable? How are we going to survive without the NG-CDF or the NGAAF? What about mama mboga, who is now hit? For her to procure vegetables from Marikiti, she has to send money via M-Pesa, because pick-pockets are waiting when she arrives there. However, now, for every Kshs100 that she sends, she loses Kshs12. How are we going to survive? If this House and right-thinking Kenyans do not address these issues, we will then be abdicating our responsibility and duty. We may not vote on it, but we must voice on it; we must speak to it. There will come a time when we shall be asked: “What were you doing when this was happening? What did you do when this was happening?”

Today, Madam Temporary Speaker, when I look back to the period 1980, 1984 and 1985 when we were young lawyers buying small cars, it would cost me Kshs400 in fuel to drive to Bungoma and back. I have a distinguished colleague from Kericho County who comes almost the same distance like me. However, today, you cannot drive to Kericho without pumping fuel of at least Kshs10,000 in your car for one way; and the same amount on your way back. By doing that, it means that even for public transport, the matatu operator must recover the cost of fuel. At the end of the day, every single tax that we impose, the shock goes to the consumer.

Madam Temporary Speaker, if you tax the banks for money transfers, there is no bank that will use its money to pay for money transfer. They will pass it to you. When you wire money to your son in school for fees and upkeep, you are charged. When you wire money to import a small car, you will pay duty on the car; but when you wire money to Japan, you are charged. We are making life very difficult and our target is to be a middle income and eventually a developed country. There is not a single country in the world– like my dear nominated Sen. Farhiya will tell you –that can industrialise through taxation. There is no country that will develop to middle class through taxation. There is no country that will develop to become a Korea, a Malaysia, an Indonesia or a Singapore

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have brought this Motion to get my colleagues in the House to ventilate on two critical things that affect the people in the counties that we represent. These are the public debt and taxation on the people of Kenya. In so doing, we want to be factual, positive and look for solutions. We are not here for name-calling. We want this country to face the problems we are having squarely and address them.

The question of public debt in this country is now common knowledge. As a matter of fact, our debt portfolio now stands at Kshs5.3 trillion; a very astronomical figure. Our debt repayment stands at Kshs870 billion per annum. That is 70 per cent of our revenue. So, 70 per cent of our revenue goes to debt service. When a country gets to that threshold, it is cause for worry and concern by Members, particularly leaders in this House; a House that many Kenyans look to for solutions and proposals that can help.

Interest alone on our public debt today is Kshs400 billion per annum. Our grandiose expenditure goes to the big projects and the debt continues to pile. When the debt continues to run away in the manner it is doing, the country will start running into serious difficulties.

It is unfortunate that this House is not enjoined in the Constitution, to vote on such matters. I am sure this House would have advised the country differently and would have voted differently. Be that as it may, every time the debt balloons to the level it is doing, it undermines the remittances of money to counties and the development programmes in counties that we represent, the efficient delivery of services, the provision of health services and the provision of quality education. It literally undermines good order in the country. We have seen countries where law and order can get compromised because of mismanagement of the economy and the run-away public debts. As I move this Motion, I want to urge this House to opine to the Government that serious attention must be paid to the issue of debts. We sit in the Committee on Finance and Budget of this House and every day---

Madam Temporary Speaker, we agonize on which direction we are going. As the country is burdened with debt, we are now heading to a more dangerous direction.

The taxation regime in the country is also a cause to worry. One, if you over-tax the population, you chock production and undermine the ethics of virtually every production sector. Today, if you start hearing that transactions in the bank are attracting heavy taxation, it means that, we are telling traders and commercial enterprise players to start keeping money at home.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to second this Motion for the simple reason that unsuitable debt levels can be harmful to the economy. They can crowd out development and social programmes because huge portions of Government revenues are taken away from essential services and used to service debts. In the worst case scenario, Kenya might be forced to cede control of strategic assets to foreign creditors. This is happening in Sri Lanka, whose port was taken.

External debt is not necessarily harmful for an economy. Studies have shown that external debt, if synchronized with business cycles, can stabilize the economy and boost economic growth. That is part of financial displine as well. It can also create weak foreign currency, which makes the country‟s exports more expensive. Weak currency can lead to high inflation rates in the long-term because it will cost more to import for production and consumption.

Madam Temporary Speaker, there is a saying by the former USA President Benjamin Franklin that “Rather go to bed supperless, than rise in debt.” I think this so true in this country at the moment. Our economy is not in crisis yet, but it is headed there, unless our Government takes concrete steps to forestall economic

meltdown. It is not clear how the Government is addressing the issue that we face with the urgency that is required.

Our economic prospects depend on whether our President can restore fiscal discipline. This will help reduce financial costs. More taxation and revenue increase seem not to have induced debt reduction. So, we must restrain our spending. The Government must take the right measures to reduce the expenditure, so that whatever we spend on is worth it. An example is what Sen. Wetangula has articulated regarding the dam. If that dam generates some investment in terms of irrigation and help in production, that will not only make us food secure, but also help us repay the debt that we borrowed, the debt should be worth the returns. This is in two ways: in terms of output or social benefits.

That brings me to the issue of corruption. Corruption makes debts even more expensive. It will be more expensive to pay debts. I applaud our President for the steps he is taking in terms of dealing with corruption. Even if President Uhuru Kenyatta does not deliver on his top flagship projects, but curtails corruption in this country, he will have left a legacy for Kenyans. That is something that even the previous presidents have never achieved. There was a time we were used to 10 per cent corruption, but now we talking about supplying „air.‟ Remember that, that is either from taxation or part of the debt that we will repay. It has reached a level where we are supplying nothing and getting paid. I think the President can just curb corruption. Kenyans are hardworking people and we can get out of this debt trap if the right environment---.

People concentrate so much on direct foreign investment but there are much bigger issues that we have, such as local investors who have the interest of whatever profit--- At least for the direct foreign investment, they repatriate their profit. If Kenyans are given a business-friendly environment, invest properly and produce, then the profits will remain in this country and the Government will generate enough revenue.

As Government generates enough revenue, we will be able to pay our debts and Kenyans will get out of the poverty trap. This is because many Kenyans after over 50 years of Independence cannot even put more than one meal on their table. That is absolute, abject poverty which we can address by just addressing one phenomenon called corruption

Madam Temporary Speaker, in terms of borrowing, we had 14 Ministers including President Uhuru Kenyatta as a Minister for Finance, borrowing Ksh1.7 trillion in 50 years. Right now, we have one Cabinet Secretary who has borrowed Ksh2.3 trillion in just five years. Somebody should ask the right question: Is this proper?

The other way of finding out on whether the projects the Government is investing in is to do proper feasibility studies that will indicate the amount borrowed, the number of years I am required to pay, and whether the money will be able to finance itself without requiring contribution from other taxpayers‟ resources. For example, on the Standard Gauge Railway (SGR), if the feasibility study was conducted properly, then the revenue generated out of the SGR should pay the debt that was used to finance the railway line.

We should then compare that with the timeline that it requires for us to repay that debt and ensure that all those are in sync in terms of viability of that project. That should all be determined through the feasibility study.

I also want to talk about taxation of basic commodities. One of the impacts of taxation on basic commodities is that it touches on the lives of common mwananchi; meaning the poor people of this country who are already languishing in poverty. Sometimes some taxation might not have the desired impact. An example is if we add tax on fuel. If I am then using industry to produce certain commodities, the ability for that company to pass over that taxation to the consumer will depend on two things: One, if there is no competition against that industry, then the manufacturer will pass that tax to the consumer so as not to impact on his bottom line.

If that does not happen, the profit for that company will be less. Once the profit is impacted, the ability of that company to pay corporate tax will come down since they are not able to pass their costs to the consumer. In essence, you do not have any impact because you did not gain what you would have gained from this side, yet you have made inflationary impact by maybe devaluing of our currency and made people pay more for commodities. The person who should have paid more corporate tax is now paying less. In essence, it will have a knock-on effect.

Madam Temporary Speaker, let us say that they will pass it to the consumer. Most likely if the income of the consumer has not changed and we expect them to pay higher, it means that their disposable income or what he will be able to save will be less. That is the money that people are able to invest and produce. It will also impact on the industries‟ ability to hire more people because, if it is becoming expensive for them to run their industry, they are likely to lay off some of the staff. Once that happens, it will also impact on collection of Pay as You Earn (PAYE) tax because there are like 25 per cent of the people who work for the company paying less PAYE tax. Those are some of the issues that we need to address before we take such drastic action in terms of taxation of basic commodities.

The other issue I wanted to talk about is perception in terms of the economy. If people perceive that the taxation of fuel, for example, is going to make this economy worse off; if anybody including Kenyans think that the neighbouring countries have less taxation and more favourable business conditions, they are likely to hold on their money without investing. They will say, “I do not want to invest my money now because of the current---.”

Madam Temporary Speaker, let us talk about housing which is one of the flagship projects. If I know that economic hardships are ahead, then I am better off keeping this money because if I invest it in housing, I know Kenyans will not be able to afford to pay rent. Those are some of the issues we need to take into consideration before we make such decisions such as taxation of basic commodities.

Let me pick up from the issues that Sen. Wetangula has mentioned. We do not need small quantities to do adulteration of fuel. If there is a way fuel stations could monitor the quantity--- If you want to make it more expensive, then create a margin of quantity such as 100 litres. For example, if somebody is buying 10 litres, then charge them less because they are not likely to use it for that purpose. If you have more than 10 litres, then you pay a different price in what is called price discrimination. There are also risks in that because somebody will take 10 litres from one fuel station and 10 from another if we have no mechanism of monitoring. However, at least that is an avenue

You have two more minutes.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. You have seen even the altercation between the International Monetary Fund (IMF) , the lender of the last resort, and our Cabinet Secretary for Finance. The IMF has now said that we are not eligible to borrow from them. If we do not do that, then the inevitable may happen. If we cannot pay to our largest creditor, China, which does not give us concessional, but commercial loans, then we run the risk of our country foreclosed. We have heard of Sri Lanka being foreclosed and there is a threat to foreclose Zambia. In Argentina, the economy has collapsed and now it is technically insolvent, because of heavy borrowing from the same Chinese.

We are staring at a serious danger and a stitch in time saves nine. If we speak now, we may arrest the situation. If the President and his Government are listening, you may get the 8 per cent Value Added Tax (VAT) today, but that is not the end of the problem. Any government that is spending 70 per cent of its revenue on debt service is on a very dangerous part. Any government that is paying Kshs400 billion in an economy like Kenya, on interest only on debt, is on a very dangerous highway. We are continuing to borrow.

The President went to the United States of America the other day and came back with a big loan. What will the big loan do? It will construct a dual carriage to Mombasa – six lanes on either side - which I have no problem with, but that is a death nail to the Standard Gauge Railway (SGR). If we have a six-lane highway to Mombasa and back, why we want to put our cargo on the rail? You will use the highway. That rail is now the biggest peg on our economic debt. If that railway line cannot generate income, it then means that you have to take mama mboga’s M-Pesa money, every trader‟s deposit in the bank, everybody‟s little income and tax the workers, so that you can service the debt. This means that we will run on the same spot from now henceforth until the chickens come to roost.

President Uhuru and your Government, talk to everybody. V. I. Lenin said that even when a mad man talks, listen; it maybe his lucid moment and you may pick something from him. Listen to everybody and we can make this country better and greater. We will not be better or greater, in the short term, by borrowing. We look like somebody who goes to borrow money to open a shop and run a business and he comes back home carrying a mattress, radio, bicycle and other non-productive things for a commercial loan. That is the highway to bankruptcy and we are headed there. It is dangerous and not good for our country and more so, for the people of this country.

Madam Temporary Speaker I beg to move and ask Sen. Farhiya to second this Motion.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to second this Motion for the simple reason that unsuitable debt levels can be harmful to the economy. They can crowd out development and social programmes because huge portions of Government revenues are taken away from essential services and used to service debts. In the worst case scenario, Kenya might be forced to cede control of strategic assets to foreign creditors. This is happening in Sri Lanka, whose port was taken.

External debt is not necessarily harmful for an economy. Studies have shown that external debt, if synchronized with business cycles, can stabilize the economy and boost economic growth. That is part of financial displine as well. It can also create weak foreign currency, which makes the country‟s exports more expensive. Weak currency can lead to high inflation rates in the long-term because it will cost more to import for production and consumption.

Madam Temporary Speaker, there is a saying by the former USA President Benjamin Franklin that “Rather go to bed supperless, than rise in debt.” I think this so true in this country at the moment. Our economy is not in crisis yet, but it is headed there, unless our Government takes concrete steps to forestall economic

meltdown. It is not clear how the Government is addressing the issue that we face with the urgency that is required.

Our economic prospects depend on whether our President can restore fiscal discipline. This will help reduce financial costs. More taxation and revenue increase seem not to have induced debt reduction. So, we must restrain our spending. The Government must take the right measures to reduce the expenditure, so that whatever we spend on is worth it. An example is what Sen. Wetangula has articulated regarding the dam. If that dam generates some investment in terms of irrigation and help in production, that will not only make us food secure, but also help us repay the debt that we borrowed, the debt should be worth the returns. This is in two ways: in terms of output or social benefits.

That brings me to the issue of corruption. Corruption makes debts even more expensive. It will be more expensive to pay debts. I applaud our President for the steps he is taking in terms of dealing with corruption. Even if President Uhuru Kenyatta does not deliver on his top flagship projects, but curtails corruption in this country, he will have left a legacy for Kenyans. That is something that even the previous presidents have never achieved. There was a time we were used to 10 per cent corruption, but now we talking about supplying „air.‟ Remember that, that is either from taxation or part of the debt that we will repay. It has reached a level where we are supplying nothing and getting paid. I think the President can just curb corruption. Kenyans are hardworking people and we can get out of this debt trap if the right environment---.

People concentrate so much on direct foreign investment but there are much bigger issues that we have, such as local investors who have the interest of whatever profit--- At least for the direct foreign investment, they repatriate their profit. If Kenyans are given a business-friendly environment, invest properly and produce, then the profits will remain in this country and the Government will generate enough revenue.

As Government generates enough revenue, we will be able to pay our debts and Kenyans will get out of the poverty trap. This is because many Kenyans after over 50 years of Independence cannot even put more than one meal on their table. That is absolute, abject poverty which we can address by just addressing one phenomenon called corruption

Madam Temporary Speaker, in terms of borrowing, we had 14 Ministers including President Uhuru Kenyatta as a Minister for Finance, borrowing Ksh1.7 trillion in 50 years. Right now, we have one Cabinet Secretary who has borrowed Ksh2.3 trillion in just five years. Somebody should ask the right question: Is this proper?

The other way of finding out on whether the projects the Government is investing in is to do proper feasibility studies that will indicate the amount borrowed, the number of years I am required to pay, and whether the money will be able to finance itself without requiring contribution from other taxpayers‟ resources. For example, on the Standard Gauge Railway (SGR), if the feasibility study was conducted properly, then the revenue generated out of the SGR should pay the debt that was used to finance the railway line.

We should then compare that with the timeline that it requires for us to repay that debt and ensure that all those are in sync in terms of viability of that project. That should all be determined through the feasibility study.

I also want to talk about taxation of basic commodities. One of the impacts of taxation on basic commodities is that it touches on the lives of common mwananchi; meaning the poor people of this country who are already languishing in poverty. Sometimes some taxation might not have the desired impact. An example is if we add tax on fuel. If I am then using industry to produce certain commodities, the ability for that company to pass over that taxation to the consumer will depend on two things: One, if there is no competition against that industry, then the manufacturer will pass that tax to the consumer so as not to impact on his bottom line.

If that does not happen, the profit for that company will be less. Once the profit is impacted, the ability of that company to pay corporate tax will come down since they are not able to pass their costs to the consumer. In essence, you do not have any impact because you did not gain what you would have gained from this side, yet you have made inflationary impact by maybe devaluing of our currency and made people pay more for commodities. The person who should have paid more corporate tax is now paying less. In essence, it will have a knock-on effect.

Madam Temporary Speaker, let us say that they will pass it to the consumer. Most likely if the income of the consumer has not changed and we expect them to pay higher, it means that their disposable income or what he will be able to save will be less. That is the money that people are able to invest and produce. It will also impact on the industries‟ ability to hire more people because, if it is becoming expensive for them to run their industry, they are likely to lay off some of the staff. Once that happens, it will also impact on collection of Pay as You Earn (PAYE) tax because there are like 25 per cent of the people who work for the company paying less PAYE tax. Those are some of the issues that we need to address before we take such drastic action in terms of taxation of basic commodities.

The other issue I wanted to talk about is perception in terms of the economy. If people perceive that the taxation of fuel, for example, is going to make this economy worse off; if anybody including Kenyans think that the neighbouring countries have less taxation and more favourable business conditions, they are likely to hold on their money without investing. They will say, “I do not want to invest my money now because of the current---.”

Madam Temporary Speaker, let us talk about housing which is one of the flagship projects. If I know that economic hardships are ahead, then I am better off keeping this money because if I invest it in housing, I know Kenyans will not be able to afford to pay rent. Those are some of the issues we need to take into consideration before we make such decisions such as taxation of basic commodities.

Let me pick up from the issues that Sen. Wetangula has mentioned. We do not need small quantities to do adulteration of fuel. If there is a way fuel stations could monitor the quantity--- If you want to make it more expensive, then create a margin of quantity such as 100 litres. For example, if somebody is buying 10 litres, then charge them less because they are not likely to use it for that purpose. If you have more than 10 litres, then you pay a different price in what is called price discrimination. There are also risks in that because somebody will take 10 litres from one fuel station and 10 from another if we have no mechanism of monitoring. However, at least that is an avenue

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I wish to start by thanking the distinguished Senator for Bungoma County, Sen. Wetangula, for bringing this matter to this House for debate.

Today, we are in a situation that once faced the country in 2008, when the National Assembly passed the National Accord. At that particular time, the country did not have an opposition party. In most cases where there is no opposition, there is nobody who is responsible enough to take care of the interest of the common mwananchi.

The kind of scenario that we find ourselves in today after the handshake is a situation where most of the Members are so compromised to the extent that nobody wants to speak out firmly because they fear to upset the status quo. This applies to all Members whether they are from the Jubilee side or the NASA side. I want to ask my brother, Sen. Wetangula, to seize the moment and take it up as his responsibility to mobilise an opposition for this country.

I have listened to the matters that are taking place in the National Assembly today, and the issue of taxation proposals being made touch on the wellbeing of the common mwananchi of this country. The Members have forgotten that they have a responsibility to protect the very vulnerable members of society. Most of them are now dancing to the tune of the people who are controlling Parliament through remote control.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the first article in our Constitution, 2010 says that the sovereign power belongs to the people of Kenya and that sovereign power can only be exercised through democratically elected representatives. We are all seated here as Members of Parliament and have a serious duty of protecting the sovereignty of the people of Kenya.

When I was a student of Public International Law, I learnt that for a state to be recognised as sovereign, there are certain ingredients that, that state must fulfil. It must have the power to make laws and have enforcement mechanisms.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this chance. I want to congratulate my colleague, Sen. Wetangula, for bringing such an important issue before this House this afternoon; the issue of the ballooning debt that has captured the attention of the nation. For the first time in this country, Kenyans are getting extremely interested with what their parliamentarians are doing.

Madam Temporary Speaker, if you have watched the traffic, both online and listened to radio stations and the news items, I do not think there has ever been a time when Kenyans have been more interested in the work that their legislators are doing other than this time. That tells you that Kenyans are hurting and this matter is of extreme importance to them.

I want to confess here that when the issue of the 8 per cent Value Added Tax (VAT) came up, for the very first time, when I was doing my public functions in the constituency, I was confronted by young and old alike asking me, as their legislator, to perhaps see to it if there is anything I can do about this issue and raise it on the Floor of the House. Unfortunately, many people we represent do not understand the current architecture of our Constitution, where certain things that are considered to be Money Bills do not see the light of the day in this House.

Madam Temporary Speaker, this is a theory I wish us to pursue one of these days, because this monster that keeps on cropping up every time, that as Senate, we try to stamp our authority; an authority that we have legitimately earned on issues of extreme national importance, we are limited and told that our duty is only county. When the national Government borrows, does it not affect counties? Where is it that they get the money to pay from?

The first item of charge on any national budget is the public debt and, therefore, when the national Government borrows, it affects the amount of money we are sending to counties. Therefore, it is my argument that we need to consider going the way of advisory opinion number one, which gave this House the powers to legislate on the Division of Revenue and the County Allocation of Revenue. We should question on such matters that are of great national importance as what is being considered, whether the Senate has a place. Of course, we have! When you tell us that we should limit our arguments to matters of county, you just wonder. This issue of fuel and all these other matters that are being considered before us, how can they not be matters affecting counties?

Madam Temporary Speaker, from the outset, as a leader, I am disappointed and I feel that as a leadership, the time has come for us to put our heads together. We should not just sit still on our laurels, appreciate and say that because we have been voted in by the people we represent in this House, everything is working on well. The truth of the matter is that the interest this issue is generating in this country is because Kenyans are feeling the pain and the burden of paying taxes. It has reached a point where they want to

know, as their legislators, where we stand. In all the WhatsApp groups that I am in, all I can see Kenyans doing this afternoon – and I even wonder if they are working –is they are questioning how their Member of Parliament (MP) will vote on those particular issues. Is he with us, the true bosses, or has he gone to a parliamentary group somewhere and has been told to vote in a particular way without being told what is the motivation of voting in that particular way?

Madam Temporary Speaker, Parliament is a representation of the people. There is nothing that is more supreme than a gathering of the representatives of the people. I do not understand properly the architecture why it was made so difficult that whenever Parliament has asserted itself on a particular matter and the President returns a Memorandum, it is again made extremely difficult for the same MPs who spoke about it to overturn the same veto. Of course, there are pros and cons for this particular debate. It is something that we may want to consider in future. How I wish that, as a country, we can have a sober discussion about the public debt, where we have reached with it and what we need to do. It is important to note that Kenyans are continuing to give us suggestions, saying that the time has come.

Madam Temporary Speaker, Kenya has 19 million voters, but only four million taxpayers; and that is where the problem begins. This is because you have people who elect leaders into office, but then they leave them with no tools to work. They sent here to work. They told them: “Please go and consider our issues;” and that is where it ends. The biggest problem in this country is the fact that, on a daily basis, millions of young people are waking up and they have absolutely nothing to do; yet, the mandarins in the national Treasury do not heed to the cries of those of us who have been crying for a long time.

We have been crying that the only austerity measures that will make sense for an economy like Kenya is that which will put young people to work; consideration of what it is that we can do to ensure that small light industries are being lit up in our counties so that every young person can wake up and report somewhere; and that is the only way they will pay taxes. The reason why the rest of the country is up in arms is because it is only four million Kenyans who are supporting the other 46 million. Therefore, they are bound to feel the fatigue. However, if everyone was generously contributing and they had something to do, such that they are paying Pay as You Earn (PAYE) and the rest of the taxes, we would then be so proud and know that we are building a country.

Madam Temporary Speaker, as things stand today, it is incumbent upon us, first as leaders and secondly as citizens of this country, to have a general discussion. We should question whether the path we have taken in terms of our public debt is sustainable. Does it make economic sense? I see very many discussions on issues; and some are informed by very good logic, but unfortunately, a majority of it is misled. For example, when people suggest that one of the easiest things to do to try and curb the public wage bill and the cost of running the Government is to reduce the size of Parliament, are they aware that Parliament, as an institution despite being one of the three arms of Government, consumes only 0.8 per cent – not even 1 per cent – of the budget of the Republic? Therefore, people are making uninformed arguments by proposing that if you reduce the size of the Legislature, you will have contained the public wage bill---

Maybe you need to move to the next microphone.

Proceed and, please, summarize.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the point that I was trying to make is that the discussion that we need to have is; what is it that we shall do, as a country, in order to have more taxpayers instead of relying on salaried employees. That is the crux of the matter and that is where all this debate boils down to. Therefore, each time a budget is presented before us, as a legislature, that is the first point of call.

I have seen so many ideas being proposed by the national Treasury, for example, the Housing Fund, where there is an additional 1.5 per cent levy. This means that our taxation will now have, on top of the PAYE, an extra 1.5 per cent without considering that some people have borrowed and their take-home is only Kshs1,000 to 2,000. We now want to deduct 1.5 per cent to build a house for other people, yet some of the people you are taxing do not even have houses in the first place. What a crazy and absurd idea? The truth of the matter that our budget is vendor driven. It is driven by people who have already cut deals with the national Treasury. They are, therefore, looking for the National Assembly to rubberstamp their idea and force Kenyans to pay taxes, and then they can transact business. We must stand up, as a legislature, and speak for the people of Kenya, who have been impoverished and made to suffer by these mandarins.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the truth of the matter is that years down the line when things go wrong – and for sure they are about to go wrong – we will be challenged to explain what we did to help our people. Unfortunately, for those of us who are in the Senate, you will not hide under the Constitution and say that there was absolutely nothing that we could do about it. Our children will want to know whether we watched helplessly as the country went into public debt. If, in another 10 or 15 years, we are unable to pay the loans that we have borrowed from other countries, with the news we are reading, about China taking control of certain national institutions, what answer will we give? What will be our response?

Therefore, I urge my colleagues in the Senate to put our heads together and consider what we can do. The beauty of it is that, I know that a part of the memorandum that has been sent to the National Assembly even proposes a reduction of the Kshs314 billion that we had sent to the counties.

I want to be on record that I will never support the Division of Revenue Bill when it comes to this House. I can never support the reduction of money that has been sent to counties, because whatever we are sending there is already too little. We are in the September going to October, yet no single county has received a coin for development. Three months have been wasted and people are earning salaries. Why are you paying people salaries, yet they have not worked? Are you not defrauding the people of Kenya, if you are paying me money, as a County Executive Committee (CEC) Member, yet you have not given me the budget money to run the development programmes?

I know that my colleagues would also want to contribute. We must now read our Budget with a fine tooth-comb, so as to see some of the principles that are being proposed. For example, we have been told that the budget on security is huge because it is a strategic item for this country, yet that is where the largest source of looters‟ fund is found in our Budget. We were told that a wall was being built somewhere close to Somalia, we have not seen it, yet it has cost almost Kshs15 billion in the last three or four years. We were always told that we cannot visit that place because it is unsafe. If it unsafe, which contractor is building it? Is it being built by the Al Shabaab? Have they contracted the Al Shabaab?

We were told that we are supposed to single-source because we are a Commonwealth country. Therefore, when we buy guns or helicopters, we do not even open the tenders to the public. What is secret about a helicopter that will be flying in the air? Some of these theories are stone-age and archaic thinking that we need to do away with. If the President is looking for places to reduce part of public expenditure, that is one direction that I want to point out to him.

Madam Temporary Speaker, in the interest of time, I thank Sen. Wetangula for bringing these issues to the fore. It will enable us to debate them soberly and find ways in which we can provide solutions.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I wish to start by thanking the distinguished Senator for Bungoma County, Sen. Wetangula, for bringing this matter to this House for debate.

Today, we are in a situation that once faced the country in 2008, when the National Assembly passed the National Accord. At that particular time, the country did not have an opposition party. In most cases where there is no opposition, there is nobody who is responsible enough to take care of the interest of the common mwananchi.

The kind of scenario that we find ourselves in today after the handshake is a situation where most of the Members are so compromised to the extent that nobody wants to speak out firmly because they fear to upset the status quo. This applies to all Members whether they are from the Jubilee side or the NASA side. I want to ask my brother, Sen. Wetangula, to seize the moment and take it up as his responsibility to mobilise an opposition for this country.

I have listened to the matters that are taking place in the National Assembly today, and the issue of taxation proposals being made touch on the wellbeing of the common mwananchi of this country. The Members have forgotten that they have a responsibility to protect the very vulnerable members of society. Most of them are now dancing to the tune of the people who are controlling Parliament through remote control.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the first article in our Constitution, 2010 says that the sovereign power belongs to the people of Kenya and that sovereign power can only be exercised through democratically elected representatives. We are all seated here as Members of Parliament and have a serious duty of protecting the sovereignty of the people of Kenya.

When I was a student of Public International Law, I learnt that for a state to be recognised as sovereign, there are certain ingredients that, that state must fulfil. It must have the power to make laws and have enforcement mechanisms.

The other important thing is that it must be able to levy taxes. We say that Kenya is sovereign because it has that ability. We have our judicial system which we must protect jealously, because that is the only recourse that the very members of society, who will be aggrieved by the law that we pass or the excesses of the Executive, can run to for remedy.

As the people who the public has ceded sovereign power to, we must behave responsibly because our Constitution states that since that sovereign power has been ceded to us for the greater good of the public, the public purse is controlled by Parliament. Parliament passes the Finance Bill, which proposes the tax measures that the Government must take. Parliament approves all taxation in the country.

When Members of Parliament speak, it is the people of Kenya speaking. We must, therefore, ask ourselves why one or two people cannot listen to the call of the people of Kenya. If what is happening now is not checked, it will go to unmanageable levels. Dictatorship starts when you do not want to sit and reason with people; you must always force things to happen.

I belong to the Jubilee Coalition and was shocked today to find the Secretary General of the party whipping Members of the National Assembly to go and vote. That was not the only Motion, Government Bill or business that has been to the Senate or the National Assembly. Why is it that now, one must come to intimidate Members of Parliament (MPs)? It is not right. It is not proper.

Madam Temporary Speaker, we have a serious duty to come to the defense of our people when we feel that things that have negative effect on them regardless of whether we belong to a party, a coalition or not. Our greater interest and the mandate that we have is to protect the people of Kenya and their interests.

I thank the Mover of this Motion for bringing out the other aspect of public debt. We should not only concentrate on foreign debt. We have the other aspect of public debt which is internal or domestic. That is a very serious issue that the Executive need to address. If my memory serves me right, and I have not forgotten some bit of economics, the Government owes small-scale business people huge amounts of money in terms of supply of goods and services.

We are complaining that Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) is under-collecting or not meeting targets. How can you meet targets or collect enough money when the Government which is the largest spender and biggest employer is not paying? When you do not pay, you do not collect VAT. You do not have income to declare at the end of the year and hence, you do not have Income Tax. So, it is a vicious cycle.

The advisors must look at this and see how to address it. It makes things worse because most of our borrowers in this country are small borrowers. For example, when the Jubilee Administration said it was creating jobs, we came up with a law in 2015 to create a certain percentage of development funds to be applied in terms of small contracts to women, Persons with Disabilities (PwDs) and the youth. These people in society, for lack of capital and securities have gone further to get guarantors to guarantee them to borrow some money to do small supplies to the county or national Government. However, the Government take long to pay them.

Order, Senators! Can we allow him to conclude his submissions?

I believe you will obey, Madam Temporary Speaker.

I am not sure whether the Sen. Githiomi would like to be informed.

Proceed, Senator Mwangi Githiomi, although this gadget has renamed you Senator Prengei; at least we happen to know your face.

I am sorry, Madam Temporary Speaker; Senator Prengei has gone out of the House. I am the one who wanted to speak but, my card is in another place.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the 16 percent VAT on petroleum is a thing that all Kenyans should discourage. I will first start by thanking my friend, Sen. Wetangula, for bringing this Motion to this House. This Motion is also going on in the National Assembly.

Madam Temporary Speaker, prices of essential commodities have shot up. This includes the cost of transport, foodstuff and industrial products. It is going to be impossible to live in this country in the near future and I do not know where we shall go. This is because the cost of living in Kenya has gone beyond what Kenyans can afford. It is even growing beyond what is in other developed countries, including the developed countries.

Madam Temporary Speaker, it is not necessary to talk of development that the country can ill afford. We should not overborrow to develop Kenya while Kenyans cannot afford to put food on their table, pay school fees for their children and have a decent living. It is important – and when I say this, I say this as a supporter of the current Government, which I support a 100 percent – but at the same time, the Government should be advised where it goes wrong.

Madam Temporary Speaker, this country has over Kshs5 trillion in terms of loans. Some of this money goes to the pockets of individuals through corruption. We have not been able to stop this corruption. A few years ago, the National Youth Service (NYS) was reported as having lost Kshs1 billion through corruption. Today, we are hearing of the same institution having lost Kshs9 billion through corruption. This should not be encouraged. We should not tax Kenyans for a few individuals to involve themselves in corrupt practices and siphon out money from their Ministries. Billions of shillings have been siphoned even outside Kenya. We cannot borrow it from our banks. It cannot help Kenyans because it is stuck in foreign accounts in Switzerland, America and Britain such that Kenyans have no access to this money. This money is helping foreigners. It is time we thought of how to run this country; let us not just talk of development.

The Big Four Agenda is nothing if corruption will continue in this country. This is because Treasury will give money to the projects of the Big Four Agenda but those projects will never see the light of day. That money will be stolen by individuals and taken out of this country and Kenyans will not have access to it.

It is good for us in this House and those in the National Assembly to talk because the purpose of coming to this Chamber is to talk for the people who are not in this House. They have done their work by bringing us to this House and, therefore, we should talk on their behalf.

What is happening in Kenya today is a sad story, because we are headed to where Zimbabwe is. Very soon, we will be carrying money in briefcases to do very small purchases. Money is going to be devalued because of the kind of things that are happening in this country. This is not for the good of the common mwananchi. There are

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to also comment on this very sensitive matter. I rise to support this Motion on the rising cost on public debt and taxation.

Madam Temporary Speaker, we are at cross roads in this country. If you go outside there, you will see what Kenyans are going through. You should not blame the Senators when there is a revolution in this country within a short time. This is because Kenyans out there are sick and tired of the public debt. Currently, we are paying over Kshs700 billion a year and next year, it is going to be about Kshs 900 billion. I am surprised that with all that knowledge of the heavy taxation and the heavy debt, Kenyans are being subjected to yet more taxes. Kenyans out there ought to know that this House, the Senate – which is the House of union – has nothing to do with what is happening in the National Assembly. If I was in the National Assembly today, I would have ensured that we whipped all Members to contribute on this thing and to ensure that Kenyans do not get taxed. Taxes will not help us. What is happening right now and the President ought to close all loopholes on corruption.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I was one of the most frustrated and disappointed Member of this House this afternoon. We had an opportunity to prove to Kenyans out there that we are different, but we failed. We had an opportunity to prove to Kenyans out there that they brought us into this House to defend them, but we failed when we did not discuss the Ruaraka Land Report, where Kenyans lost billions of shillings. I want to go on record as having stood here and fought for us to debate this Report, but for some reason, there were some very strong powers that objected to it. These powers are the ones that are killing this nation. Today, Kenyans ought to know that the Port of Mombasa will soon be owned by the Chinese. The Port of Mombasa has been given out as collateral for the loans that we are getting on a yearly basis from China. I am sure that when my dear good friend, Mr. President, travelled, he did not come back empty handed. What he did is that the poor little children who were born today – like the triplets born to a poor lady in

Order, Senators! Can we allow him to conclude his submissions?

Order Senator! Your time is up.

I am not sure whether the Sen. Githiomi would like to be informed.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I do not want to be informed because I have enough information. I am addressing the nation---

Kindly, proceed and try to finish, so that we can allow other Members to also submit.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the leadership of this country should sit with the two Houses and allow them to express themselves. They should be ready to be advised by the leadership of both Houses because they are very wise people. They should listen to us, so that we can tell them what the public is facing because we are with members of the public day in, day out. The public is crying out to both Houses and the leadership of this country to ensure that we do not increase taxes to a level that life will become unaffordable.

Madam Temporary Speaker, with those few remarks, I support this Motion.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to also comment on this very sensitive matter. I rise to support this Motion on the rising cost on public debt and taxation.

Madam Temporary Speaker, we are at cross roads in this country. If you go outside there, you will see what Kenyans are going through. You should not blame the Senators when there is a revolution in this country within a short time. This is because Kenyans out there are sick and tired of the public debt. Currently, we are paying over Kshs700 billion a year and next year, it is going to be about Kshs 900 billion. I am surprised that with all that knowledge of the heavy taxation and the heavy debt, Kenyans are being subjected to yet more taxes. Kenyans out there ought to know that this House, the Senate – which is the House of union – has nothing to do with what is happening in the National Assembly. If I was in the National Assembly today, I would have ensured that we whipped all Members to contribute on this thing and to ensure that Kenyans do not get taxed. Taxes will not help us. What is happening right now and the President ought to close all loopholes on corruption.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I was one of the most frustrated and disappointed Member of this House this afternoon. We had an opportunity to prove to Kenyans out there that we are different, but we failed. We had an opportunity to prove to Kenyans out there that they brought us into this House to defend them, but we failed when we did not discuss the Ruaraka Land Report, where Kenyans lost billions of shillings. I want to go on record as having stood here and fought for us to debate this Report, but for some reason, there were some very strong powers that objected to it. These powers are the ones that are killing this nation. Today, Kenyans ought to know that the Port of Mombasa will soon be owned by the Chinese. The Port of Mombasa has been given out as collateral for the loans that we are getting on a yearly basis from China. I am sure that when my dear good friend, Mr. President, travelled, he did not come back empty handed. What he did is that the poor little children who were born today – like the triplets born to a poor lady in

Narok whose family could not even afford to support them – now have a burden of Kshs100,000 on top of them. I think people should stop giving birth; because it is sad.

Madam Temporary Speaker, when you have been elected by people from your constituency and you have been brought here, you loathe the fact that they are being treated unjustly. You develop hatred for all the challenges that they have to go through. A poor mama mboga at home who relied on a gorogoro, a small tin of corn or maize – God has been faithful and gentle to us –is now buying it at Kshs30. When she has to take it to the posho mill, where she would pay Kshs5 before, she now has to pay Kshs20. I mean, seriously, if you do not care about those poor people, what is all this nonsense of the Big Four Agenda? Why can you not go back to living within our means? It is sad that the former county councils used to collect more revenue. Where is that money going? I think the President missed an opportunity here when the Members of the National Assembly sent the Bill to him and suggested zero VAT or actually suspending the tax. The MPs wanted to suspend the tax by two more years to see where else the President can collect that money; or whether he can sensitize communities to know that choices have consequences, but he did not take it. He should have taken that opportunity to ensure that cigarettes are taxed. When you go to Dubai, you will find that a packet of cigarettes is Kshs1,000, while here it is Kshs230. Similarly, a bottle of Glenfiddich, which sells here for Kshs9,000, probably sells there for about Kshs15,000 or Kshs20,000. Why not tax this?

Madam Temporary Speaker, one of the things that really disappointed me today is on this betting tax and all these other hidden taxes that no one is talking about. People are so fixated to talking about the 8 per cent VAT, but they are not looking at the cost to them when transferring money from one account to another. They are not looking at all the other hidden taxes. It is imperative that even when these Members of the National Assembly are going through clause by clause, they should be open enough to tell Kenyans that we are in shit and that we can no longer survive. When you do not have money to buy something to eat, you should not try to drive a Lamborghini; just drive a Probox; a “problem box.” Solve your problems with a problem box. Trying to drive a Lamborghini when you cannot afford it is ludicrous.

Order Senator! Your time is up.

Hon. Senators, it is now 6.30 p.m., time to interrupt the business of the Senate. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until Tuesday, 25th September, 2018, at 2.30 p.m. at the County Assembly of Uasin Gishu in Eldoret.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.