Thursday, 13th March 2025

Hon. Members, we have a quorum to start our business. I would like to direct the House as follows: Aside from the laying of papers, there will be no preliminaries and so, we will proceed directly to the main business of the day. Many Members have statements today and I direct all of them to be slated for tomorrow morning. We will start with request for statement and responses at 10.00 a.m. The only statement I will allow is the usual Thursday

Statement by the Leader of the Majority, from the House Business Committee.

The Deputy Minority Whip.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table:

Next is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning. Is he here? Leader of the Majority Party, where is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning?

He must be finalising the amendments to the Insurance Bill.

Okay. We will skip that. Next Order.

I said I would only allow the usual Statement by the Leader of the Majority.

Before that, Leader of the Majority Party, please take your seat. Hon. Members, allow me to recognise a delegation from the National Assembly of Zambia. I wish to introduce to you a delegation from the National Assembly of Zambia, comprising of Members of the Steering Committee on the Establishment of the Parliamentary Institute of Zambia who are seated in the Speaker’s Row. Hon. Members, when I call your name, stand up for acknowledgement. They are:

Hon. Osoro.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. Indeed, I asked for a minute to appreciate the delegation from Zambia for the hospitality they accorded us when we visited them with you, as the House Business Committee sometime last year but one. I am reminded by the Majority Leader that it was last year when we visited Zambia. Of course, it was a learning experience being in Zambia. I hope that as they traverse this country, we will share experiences on our legislative duties, how we work and the House procedures. We hope to reciprocate their visit in the near future. I made fun of them when we

were having lunch that they may not get the hospitality they accorded us when we visited them in terms of food. I told them to, again, extend their invitation very fast so that we can visit and enjoy the meal they served us and the experiences we shared in terms of the legislative duties that we all have. So, on behalf of the House Business Committee and this House, I wish to appreciate the Hon. Members of Zambia led by the Deputy Speaker of Zambia.

Thank you.

Thank you Majority Whip. Hon. Rachel Nyamai, one minute.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I would like to welcome all the students that have come to visit Parliament today. I would like to specifically welcome students from Muthale Girls. I went to Muthale Girls High School many years ago and I still have memories of the encouragement that we were given by our teachers and our principal then, Mrs Mbuko. This is a school that made me who I am. I would like to encourage the girls, together with girls from other schools that they can be what they want to be as long they focus on their studies and listen to their teachers. This is the august House where laws are made. It is a place that they can be in the future to shape the leadership of this country. Welcome to the august House.

Thank you.

Reluctantly, Hon. Munyoro. One minute.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I want to welcome all students into Parliament, especially Rarakwa Girls from my constituency. It is one of the very few girls’ schools. We only have three girls’ schools in Kigumo. I want to encourage them and let them know that they have an opportunity to learn and come to sit where we sit currently. They have been doing very well in exams. I wish them well and a safe journey back home.

Thank you.

Thank you. Hon. Kemei Justice. Hon. Justice Kemei (Sigowet/Soin UDA) : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I wish to welcome Hon. Members from Zambia. I have been to Zambia over five times. It is a great country. I was also in school at the University of Wales with three students from Zambia and they were very hardworking. Welcome to Kenya.

Thank you.

Hon. Jared.

Hon. Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity. Zambia actually came up with the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) way ahead of us. When our parliamentarians in the 10th Parliament were writing the laws around the CDF, they borrowed heavily from what was already existing as the CDF in Zambia.

Today, I am very happy that they have come to benchmark with the Centre for Parliamentary Studies and Training (CPST) . That tells us how knowledge is being shared across the globe. I encourage them to continue doing the good work with their CDF.

Hon. Nzambia Gitonga is also seated next to me. He is called Nzambia Gitonga. He should join his colleagues soon after this.

His name has got nothing to do with Zambia. Yes, the Leader of the Majority Party.

Is it for the Statement or to welcome?

It is for the Statement and you can welcome your pet school, Alliance. Two of my sons went through that school as well.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. It is called: “The School.” Allow me, before I read the usual Thursday Statements, on behalf of the House

and on my own behalf to welcome the school that we host in Kikuyu, “The Alliance High School.” I want to tell the young men seated in the Speaker's Gallery that I was in that school about 31 years ago. Is it 31 years? I left that school in 1994 as the house captain of Smith House and the senior prefect in charge of discipline. They know what happens when there is indiscipline in the school.

Allow me to also recognize the other school from Kitui and the delegation from the Zambian Parliament. It is true, as Hon. Osoro has said, that we visited the Zambian Parliament as the Members of the House Business Committee and we were, indeed, accorded a very good hospitality.

They accorded us a very good welcome.

It was extremely good. I missed that opportunity to visit Zambia. However, from the time the Majority Whip came back from Zambia, he has always had stories about the Zambian Parliament and how their parliamentarians live within the constituency houses in the City of Lusaka. We have a lot to learn from them, even as they seek to learn from us on the matter of the CPST.

Moving on to the Thursday Statement. Pursuant to the provision of Standing Order 44 (2) (a) , I rise to give the following Statement on behalf of the House Business Committee, which met on Tuesday, 11th March 2025, to prioritise business for consideration during the week.

Hon. Speaker, as Members are aware, last week the House approved the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy. Earlier today, the House approved the 2025 Budget Policy Statement, which paves the way for the introduction of the Division of Revenue Bill, 2025 for First Reading and subsequent stages. The House also passed the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025 this morning and it will proceed to conclude the consideration of Committee on Supply this afternoon. This will be followed by the consideration at all stages of the Supplementary Appropriations Bill 2025. I urge Members to stick around because this is the most critical stage of the budget-making process.

I also wish to commend the Liaison Committee and all Members for the dedication and co-operation they have demonstrated in the consideration of the Medium-Term Debt Strategy, the Budget Policy Statement, the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025 and the attendant legislation. Indeed, we have certainly set a good pace and met the statutory timelines with regard to the said budget documents. With such an accomplishment, we can now proceed to our upcoming short break, commencing after tomorrow's Morning Sitting without any baggage of pending priority business.

Members will recall that on Tuesday, 11th March 2025, this House resolved to alter its Calendar for the Fourth Session Regular Sessions, by varying the commencement of the short recess from Friday 14th March to Monday, 17th March 2025. In line with that resolution, the House will resume its regular sittings on Tuesday, 1st April 2025 at 2.30 p.m. to continue with the first part of the session.

As we proceed on recess, the House still awaits reports on various business before committees. Therefore, the recess period gives committees, including those which have not been fully reconstituted and are still having elections pending, ample time to expedite the consideration of business that is pending before them, including finalising reports on Bills, treaties, inquiries and responses to statements which will be brought to the House upon the resumption from recess.

It is good to emphasise, especially now that all the Departmental Committees have their Chairs in place that there are very many committees that still have pending reports that are holding the processing of certain Bills to progress to Second Reading. I really want to urge all of us – because this is a short working recess – to take that break and allow committees to work on the reports and inquiries. Committees, especially those that are holding Bills, should please take time to make sure that they finalise with all the reports.

Upon the resumption, the House will continue with the Second Reading of the Learners with Disabilities Bill, Senate Bill No. 4 of 2023, and the Treaty Making and Ratification Amendment Bill No. 2 of 2024, should they not be concluded tomorrow Friday, 14th March

Thank you, Leader of the Majority Party. Next Order.

Members on their feet, take your seats.

Hon. Pauline and Member for Aldai, take the nearest seats. Hon. Members, I will now put the question at Order No. 8.

Mover, Hon. Owen Baya.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move that the National Land Commission (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 43 of 2023) , be now read a Third Time.

I request Hon. Osoro to second.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I second.

Thank you.

Member for Ruiru, take your seat.

Put the question.

I will now put the question. I confirm that we have Quorum in the House to warrant a vote.

Next Order. Hon. Members, be upstanding. Even the students in the Galleries, stand up.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Martha Wangari): Order, Hon. Members. We are back to the Committee of Supply on the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025. We had processed it up to Vote 1311.

THAT, further to the Supplementary Appropriation (No.2) Act, 2024, the sum allocated to meet the expenditure (Recurrent and Development) for the year 30th June 2025 in respect of Vote 2021 (National Land Commission) be increased by a sum not exceeding Ksh176,000,000.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support this increment. As I do that, let me go on record that we are very concerned as representatives of the people. Many Kenyans have given their land to development of public projects, but they have never been compensated for the land. For example, the Kitui-Kibwezi-Mwingi Road, our people gave out their land six years ago but, up to now, none of them has been compensated even a single cent.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the schedule be amended in Vote 2031

by deleting the figure Ksh3,661,686,102 in Column 9

, under the programme 0617000 Management of Electoral Processes, and substituting therefor the figure Kshs3,811,686,102. This is to cater for an increase of Ksh150 million because IEBC has several pending bills. This increase will help them cover other pending bills, especially for small suppliers.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, it is good hearing the Chairlady of the Liaison Committee indicate that the additional amount is for paying bills. However, there is a humongous amount of pending bills in terms of legal fees at IEBC. What amuses everybody is that the bills have been pending for many years but, each subsequent election cycle, those advocates still take up more instructions and briefs. Is there something that we do not know that they know?

This is just to notify Members that the net effect of this proposed amendment is that it will be an increment of Ksh30 million.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairperson. That is the clarification I needed because she was saying Ksh150 million but there was a reduction of Ksh120 million. So, we are only allowing Ksh30 million more that will go towards the payment of the pending bills.

It will be positive.

As we talk about pending bills, it is important, just like all other bills, that some of those bills are audited so that we get to know whether they are genuine or the normal Kenyan bills where people bill the Government having provided no services.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Thank you. Member for Sigowet/Soin, are you on this?

Hon. Justice Kemei (Sigowet/Soin, UDA) : Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. While I support the increment to the IEBC, Parliament must increasingly look at pending bills in all public institutions, particularly those that relate to lawyers and advocates. While they are providing a critical service, we need to look at them critically so that, at the end of the day, we get value for money of our people.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, the issue of teachers and the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) is very emotive. I just want to go on record that in this country, we have P1 teachers who graduated between 2010 and 2015 and are yet to be fully absorbed. The question on everyone’s mind is whether they will reach retirement age before benefiting from the fruits of their labour in the classroom, or what the issue is.

Thank you. The Temporary Chairlady

: Member for Kitui Central. Hon. Members, if you intend to speak, please, press the intervention button.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. Ksh18 billion is a lot of money, and colleagues, as we approve these resources, we must demand fairness in promotion and recruitment. The TSC has been very unfair to Kenyans. As a House, we must demand fairness in terms of promotion and recruitment of teachers.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Very well. Member for Sigowet/Soin, proceed.

Hon. Justice Kemei (Sigowet/Soin, UDA) : Hon. Temporary Chairlady, as I support, I join my colleagues in asking the TSC to ensure that teachers who have served for a certain period of time are promoted without undue delay.

I also join my colleagues in saying that those who graduated back in 2009, like many in my constituency, and are now in their 40s, must be prioritised by the TSC. Deliberate measures must be taken by the TSC to ensure they are employed because they are almost due for retirement.

Thank you. The Temporary Chairlady

: Member for Busia County.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

I also request that the additional money be used for the purpose it has been allocated for. I always see teachers, once they retire, suffering and travelling back and forth between the City and remote areas, begging to get their pension on time. I hope this time no one will die before seeing the fruits of their labour.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Martha Wangari): Hon. Jerusha Momanyi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I also support that the increased funds be used to promote the right teachers who have served for a long time in the same job group. When the promotions are done, they should be fair and equally distributed throughout the country.

Those who graduated a long time ago and especially, P1 teachers who have not been employed, should also be considered, bearing in mind that once someone is above 45 years old, they can no longer be employed.

Thank you. I support. The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Nyamai.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. As I support the increment, I would like to say that we have teachers who are above 40 years. We all know that in public service, once someone reaches 45 years, they can no longer be employed. During the oversight of this Budget, the Departmental Committee on Education should ensure that teachers who are above 40 years in our constituencies are hired before they reach 45 years, making them unemployable by the public service.

Thank you.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Members, before we move to the next Vote, allow me to recognise students who are seated in the Speaker’s Gallery from the following schools. They are: Elburgon Secondary School, Molo Constituency, Nakuru County and St. Adrian Kaewa School, Masinga Constituency, Machakos County.

In the Public Gallery, we also have students from Harambee Comprehensive, Makadara Constituency, Nairobi City County.

On my behalf and that of the House, I welcome you to the House to observe the proceedings.

Vote 2111 – AUDITOR-GENERAL THAT, further to the Supplementary Appropriation

(No.2)

Act, 2024, the sum allocated to meet the expenditure

for the Year 30th June 2025 in respect of Vote 2111

(Auditor-General)

be increased by a sum exceeding Ksh150,000,000.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. (Dr) Nyikal.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, as I rise to support this, the Auditor-General should take note that this House has just passed a Bill, which is likely going to be consented to soon, aimed at expanding their services in human resource. This is an area of concern for us in the country. With this increase, they should try to operationalise this Act as soon as it is consented to.

Thank you. The Temporary Chairlady

: Member for Kwanza.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, regarding Vote 2091 on the Teachers Service Commission, I want to suggest that...

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Martha Wangari): Order, Hon. Ferdinand Wanyonyi. We are already done with that. We are on Vote 2111 on the Auditor-General.

Hon. Owen Baya, do you want to speak to Vote 2111?

No. The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal, do you want to speak to this?

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support the increase.

This is one Commission that we do not feel. If you ask many Kenyans what that Commission does, it may be doing a lot of work, but we do not feel its impact, even in Parliament. It should become more visible and improve communication with the public.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Asante. Member for Endebess, do you want to speak on this one?

Hon. (Dr) Robert Pukose (Endebess, UDA) , Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The Commission on Administrative Justice, which I believe is the Office of the Ombudsman, was last active when Hon. Otiende Amollo was the Chairperson. This is a very important Commission but, at times, people do not understand what it does. As my colleague has mentioned, it is important for it to be visible because there are many issues it can help with.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Thank you.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, for us to attain gender equality, I support the increase.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Keynan.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. This is a very important Commission, especially considering the many challenges, such as gender-based violence, and the issues that are facing our girls. We need to feel the presence of this Commission in all counties. I hope that what we have experienced over the last year comes to an end. In the future, I suggest that we fund that Commission more than any other.

I support. The Temporary Chairlady

: Very well said. Hon. Robert Pukose.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, this is a very important Commission that appeared before the Departmental Committee on Health on a Bill from the Senate on Reproductive Health. They came with their commissioners and senior staff to Parliament. I applaud the Commission, which is led by the former Member of this House, Hon. Jaldesa. We should support it.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The Temporary Chairlady

: Very well said. Hon. Atandi.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I join my colleagues in saying that this is a very important Commission. We recently approved the Chairperson of this Commission, but since her appointment, she has been unable to work due to lack of vehicles and resources. This increase is significant and we should support it.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Very well said.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, this is a commendable increase, and I, sincerely hope the Oversight Policing Authority will use this additional funding to probe the dangerous trend of abduction, forced disappearances and crimes committed by police officers, as well as undertake various services.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Ferdinand Wanyonyi.

I think the money we are giving IPOA may not be enough.

The Temporary Chairlady

: What?

We need policing oversight because of what has happened. There have been many demonstrations by the youth. I believe in the coming months, I will propose increasing this amount to ensure we have enough mobility facilities to

address these issues, as there are many demonstrations, some of which are destructive to the economy.

I support. The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Martha Wangari): Hon. Mishi Mboko.

Ahsante. Naunga mkono kuongezwa kwa fedha hizi katika kitengo hiki cha kuangalia hali ya usalama. Tumeona hali ya usalama imekuwa mbaya, hasa kwa sisi wanawake. Juzi na jana, tumeona wanawake wengi wameuawa katika hali za kutatanisha. Ikiwa fedha hizi zitaongezwa, kitengo hiki kitaweza kujisaidia kupata usafiri, kwani mara nyingi kinakosa.

Vilevile, katika kazi zao, kitahakikisha kuwa dhuluma zimepungua na watu wamepata haki zao. Fedha hizi zitawawezesha. Kwa hivyo, ni muhimu sana hizi fedha ziongezwe na zitumike ili wananchi wa Kenya wapate haki zao na tusione tena maafa na dhuluma za kutekwa nyara.

Ahsante sana. Naunga mkono. The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Kangogo Bowen.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Even as we increase the allocation to the Independent Police Oversight Authority (IPOA) , IPOA needs to work within the Constitution and understand the functions of the police. Sometimes, police officers are harassed by IPOA when they are doing their work. For example, last month in Narok, a policeman had his hand cut off, and IPOA continued to pursue those officers.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Let us avoid debating, Hon. Members. We did that during Second Reading. Let us have, Hon. Mboni.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support this, but I believe we need to review the Act, amend it and grant IPOA more powers.

Hon. Dawood.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support this increment. I wish the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee will consider that we increase money to the Judiciary in the coming years. This is because many courthouses in this country are incomplete. For good justice, we need more money. Thank you.

Thank you. Hon. Bartoo.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support. We have a shortage of judges at all levels of our courts and so, this will go a long way in improving the justice system.

Hon. Atandi.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, this increase to the Judicial Service Commission (JSC) is one of the most important ones. There is an ongoing process to clean up the Judiciary by getting rid of some judges that have undermined justice in the country. Therefore, this allocation is very important. I believe the JSC will do a good job to ensure that they have competent, qualified and uncorrupt judges.

I support.

Thank you. Hon. Keynan.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, the JSC is the administrative arm of our justice system. We must fund them so that they can hold the judges and other judicial officers to account, and play their constitutional role effectively.

I support.

Hon. Mishi.

Ahsante, Mhe. Mwenyekiti wa Muda. Hiyo Vote 2041 ni muhimu sana kwa sababu inasimamia mambo mengi katika Bunge letu. Wakati tulipunguza fedha katika vitengo tofauti kwa sababu ya uchumi wa Kenya, hii Vote ilipunguzwa sana. Mambo mengi ambayo yanahusu Bunge letu katika nyanja tofauti yalitatizika. Ni muhimu sana iongezewe ili matakwa yetu na shughuli zetu za Bunge ambazo zinapitia kwa Tume hii ya Bunge, zisikuwe na utata au shida nyingine yoyote.

Naunga mkono.

Hon. Tindi.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady…Mwenyekiti wa Muda, nitaendeleza kwa kunena ya kwamba…

Kanuni za Bunge zinasema haufai kuchanganya lugha. Ukianza kwa Kiswahili, umalizie kwa Kiswahili.

‘Madam’ sio lugha ya Kiswahili. Endelea.

Nimesema Bi. Spika. Ahsante sana, Mhe. Mwenyekiti wa muda. Ninamuunga mkono mwenzangu, Mhe. Mishi Mboko kwa kunena kwamba hii Vote ambayo inahusisha…

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) plays a very important role in the welfare of the Members of Parliament and members of staff. At times, when I look at the newspaper, it is like they assume Members do not exist. There is nothing to fear. It is a high time we support the Commission and the Commissioners, because without them, there is no Parliament. Therefore, there is need to give more funding to the Commission so that it can undertake different activities on our behalf and that of the staff.

I support.

Thank you very much.

30th June 2025 in respect of Vote 2043 (Parliamentary Joint Services) be increased by a sum not exceeding Ksh416,000,000.

Hon. (Dr) Nyikal.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, as I support this, I notice that Sub-Vote 047600 on Legislative Training, Research, and Knowledge Management, has not really received any support and particularly, research. This is extremely important in legislation. Maybe, it is just me; but I wonder whether many other Members realise that research has not been supported as much. There is a lot of bureaucracy if you want information that is probably, not within Parliament. On this area of research, the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) should fund it more so that it supports the decisions that we make.

Very well. Hon. Mishi.

Mhe. Mwenyekiti wa Muda, naunga mkono Mgao wa 2043 kwa sababu kitengo hiki ndicho kinasimamia wafanyikazi wa Mabunge yetu mawili: Bunge la Seneti na Bunge la Kitaifa.

Mgao huu pia ndio unasimamia kuangalia miradi katika Mabunge yetu na maeneo yetu ya Mabunge. Hivi sasa, kuna mabadiliko mengi yamefanyika katika Mabunge yetu; na pia, tunaendelea kuona mengi yakifanyika.

Mambo ya usalama wetu katika eneo hili pia yanasimamiwa na kitengo hiki cha Mgao wa 2043. Kwa hivyo, ni kitengo na Mgao muhimu sana.

Naunga mkono.

Hon. Tindi, you have known ni Mgao, the Vote.

The Vote? Yes.

You need to pay Hon. Mishi tuition fee.

Hon. Pukose.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, thank you. As much as we approve it, on the issue of the Senate oversight, you know the Senators have always opposed almost everything like: The National-Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) , Road Maintenance Levy Fund (RMLF) and all that. As a House, we need to be very careful moving forward.

Thank you.

Hon. (Dr) Oundo.

I also want to echo the sentiment of the Vice-Chair. The Vice-Chair of the Committee, not you, the Chairlady.

I just hope and wish, and this goes to the country, that this amount we are increasing for Senate legislation and oversight should be directed towards overseeing the mess, problems, blatant theft, and lack of services in the county governments. It should not be used to fight the National Assembly because as per the Constitution, the National Assembly is the superior House compared to them.

Hon. Owen.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

I would like to echo those sentiments by saying that the Senate should now realise who is the Upper House.

Secondly, we cannot allocate Ksh362 million to the Senate when, if you look at how much is allocated to the National Assembly—Ksh800 million—it is almost half, despite the fact that there are only 67 Senators.

The Senate should understand that we give them money, and we can stop it! So, they need to respect this House. Probably, we are giving them this money so they can go to court against the National Assembly. I want to move an amendment to halve this money.

Hon. Mutuse.

Hon. Temporary Chair, thank you for giving me the opportunity.

I stand to urge Members to reject this increase. So far, as I understand, by dint of the Constitution, Members are paid to oversee and legislate. What are these extra monies going to do? Or is it another wastage?

Hon. Keynan.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, we need to think out of the box.

The Senate is one of the Houses of Parliament. Over the years, we have had serious jurisdictional conflict. In my mind, and as a person who has been around, there is no harm in funding the Senate. As long as that funding goes to oversee the wastage, rot, and all other evil things that are taking place at the county level, let us fund them. There is no problem. But we also want to urge them to stop bad-mouthing the National Assembly, and accept that the National Assembly is the Upper House.

Hon. Ochieng’.

Thank you so much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

I hear Members. But Chair, some functions of Senate are not based on the number of Members in the Senate. There are things that would be done by Senate and National Assembly regardless of the number of Members. We should stop this obsession with trying to cut the Senate down. If the Senate deserves resources for its work, let us fund them. I mean, we should stop these small wars.

Hon. Nyamai.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support this amendment.

Senators need to rise to the occasion and oversee the projects that are being implemented in the counties. There is so much rot. There is so much failure to implement projects that have been financed. So, it is time for them to go and oversee.

I would also like to say that the Senate needs to be kind to the National Assembly. They keep saying 'no' to everything from the National Assembly. But today, we are saying 'yes'; let

them be financed. However, they should go out there, oversee the counties, and ensure that projects are being implemented.

Hon. Adagala.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I also want to support this figure being given to the Senate, but the Senators have actually left the counties at the mercy of governors. There are no services like in hospitals being offered. Roads are in a pathetic situation. Everything is...

We keep it short. KK?

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I support this allocation to the Senate. However, I urge the Senators to focus on their mandate as per the Constitution. Most of the Senators get sensationalised by making headlines and pick on national matters that fall under the purview of the National Assembly, at the expense of time that should be spent ensuring that the allocations sent to counties are spent appropriately.

Hon. Members, if we open this, you know everyone would have something to say. My screen is already full. So, I will close it at that point. Allow me to put the Question.

Hon. Members, we have come to the end of the Committee of Supply on Supplementary Estimates II for the Financial Year 2024/2025.

Before I leave, allow me to recognise the following schools in the Public Gallery this afternoon: St Adrian Kiongwani Secondary School from Kilome Constituency in Makueni County; Kimuchu Secondary School from Thika Township Constituency in Kiambu County; and Gituru Comprehensive School from Naivasha Constituency in Nakuru County. I also recognise students from St Jude Muthetheni Girls’ from Mwala Constituency in Machakos County, who are seated in the Speaker’s Gallery.

On my behalf and that of the House, I welcome you to observe the proceedings of the House.

Mover, kindly move reporting.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee of Supply do report to the House its consideration of the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025 and its approval thereof with amendments.

Thank you.

Hon. Chairperson.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025 and approved the same with amendments, and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 223 of the Constitution, Section 39 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012, and Standing Order 243, approves an overall increase in the total budget for the Financial Year 2024/2025 by Ksh113,797,235,344 to meet the expenditure for the National Executive, Parliament and the Judiciary during the year ending 30th June 2025 in respect of the Votes as contained in the Schedule.

Let us have the Mover, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Report of the Committee of Supply in its consideration of the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025 and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 223 of the Constitution, Section 39 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 243, approves an overall increase in the total budget of the Financial Year 2024/2025 by Ksh113,797,235,344 to meet the expenditure for the National Executive, Parliament and the Judiciary during the year ending 30th June 2025 in respect of the Votes as contained in the Schedule. Supplementary Estimates II of Recurrent and Development Expenditure for the year ending 30th June 2025.

June 2025 in respect of Vote 1013 (Office of the Prime Cabinet Secretary) be increased by a sum not exceeding Kshs. 233,400,000.

4,059,488,392. Vote 1023 -

Technology and Digital Economy) be reduced by a sum not exceeding Kshs.

7,940,100,000. Vote 1123 -

2025 in respect of Vote 1162 (State Department for Livestock) be reduced by a sum not exceeding Kshs. 1,837,950,250.

THAT, further to the Supplementary Appropriation (No.2) Act, 2024, the sum allocated to meet the expenditure (Recurrent and Development) for the year 30th June 2025 in respect of Vote 1176 (State Department for Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises Development) be increased by a sum not exceeding Kshs. 402,500,000.

2025 in respect of Vote 1202 (State Department for Tourism) be increased by a sum not exceeding Kshs. 4,155,787,999.

2025 in respect of Vote 2011 (Kenya National Commission on Human Rights) be increased by a sum not exceeding Kshs. 5,000,000.

Kshs. 150,000,000. Vote 2131 - Commission on Administrative Justice

Kshs. 820,710,165. Vote 2051 - Judicial Service Commission

PARLIAMENT

Kshs. 847,230,000. Vote 2043 - Parliamentary Joint Services

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I second.

Order, Hon. Members! You will vote the wrong way because you are not listening.

Hon. Members, there is an amendment.

THAT, the Motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of Supply on its consideration of the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year

2024/2025 be amended by inserting the words, “subject to recommittal of Votes 1173 and 1174”. I also request Hon. Owen Baya to second the Motion for recommittal.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I second the Motion for recommittal.

Should I put the Question?

Yes!

The House resolved accordingly:

THAT, the House do agree with the Report of the Committee of Supply in its consideration of the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025 and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 223 of the Constitution, Section 39 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 243, approves an overall increase in the total budget of the Financial Year 2024/2025 by Ksh113,797,235,344 to meet the expenditure of the National Executive, Parliament and the Judiciary during the year ending 30th June 2025 in respect of the Votes as contained in the Schedule, subject to recommittal of Votes 1173 and 1174.

Next Order.

Programme 0304000 – Co-operative Development and Management

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the First Schedule to the Order Paper be amended – In Vote 1173

by deleting the figure Ksh4,830,408,765 in Column 9

under the programme 0304000 Co-operative Development and Management, and substituting thereof therefor the figure Ksh5,330,408,765.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Hon. Oundo.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, our normal practice is that the Mover of an amendment should provide more information. She has clearly said that she is substituting figures. The common mwananchi needs to know what we are talking about. What does co-operative development and management mean to the common mwananchi? Let the Mover explain clearly and give reasons.

The Temporary Chairlady

: Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, for your information, that was just an error. Instead of increasing the Vote by Ksh500 million, it was increased by Ksh500,000. We are just correcting a typographical error. It is the same case for the subsequent amendment that will be moved.

The Temporary Chairlady

: We are tidying up the Estimates.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the First Schedule to the Order Paper be amended – in Vote 1174

by deleting the figure Ksh3,480,037,327 in Column 9

under the programme 0309000 Domestic Trade and Enterprise Development, and substituting thereof therefor the figure Ksh3,280,037,327.

Hon. Chairperson.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025 and approved the same with amendments and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 223 of the Constitution, Section 39 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 243, approves an overall increase in the total budget for the Financial Year 2024/2025 by Ksh113,797,235,344 to meet the expenditure for the National Executive, Parliament and the Judiciary during the year ending 30th June 2025, in respect of the Votes as contained in the Schedule.

Mover.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Report of the Committee of Supply in its consideration of the Second Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2024/2025 and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 223 of the Constitution, Section 39 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 243, approves an overall increase in the total budget for the Financial Year 2024/2025 by Ksh113,797,235,344 to meet the expenditure for the National

Executive, Parliament and the Judiciary during the year ending 30th June 2025 in respect of the Votes as contained in the Schedule.

I ask Hon. Chepkong’a to second the Motion.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I second.

Put the Question!

If that is the feeling, I will, therefore, put the Question.

Next Order.

Mover. Is it the Chairperson of the Liaison Committee or Leader of the Majority Party?

THAT, the Supplementary Appropriation Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 8 of 2025) , be now read a Second Time. Everything that we said during the debate on the Report of the Committee yesterday is what I risk repeating today in this Bill. It is an exact replica of what we have just done in the Committee of Supply. I do not have anything to add other than what I said yesterday. In the interest of time, I remind Members - including my good friend, Hon. (Dr) Oundo - that we have the Iftar dinner this evening at 5.00 p.m. Therefore, we should not repeat what we have already said. I urge that we support the Supplementary Appropriation Bill. It is just actualising what we have done in the Committee of Supply and so, everything you will say will be a repetition.

With those few remarks, I beg to move and request Hon. (Dr) Oundo to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I stand to second. As I do so, I want to put two points straight home. Firstly, we are fairly late in the financial year. I hope and pray that the money meant for development projects will be absorbed, but not lost or taken back to the National Treasury.

Secondly, we hope and pray that there will be adequate mechanism to ensure that the money that has been appropriated is not wasted or lost.

Finally, I ask the National Assembly, through the Clerk’s office, to produce a popular version of what we have passed here today, so that the common mwananchi can internalise and know the changes, the projects stated, and the Supplementary Budget so that we move with the people at the same time.

With those few remarks, I second the Bill.

Put the Question.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 5, and substituting, therefore, the following new Clause— “The supply granted for the services of the year ending on 30th June 2025 in respect of votes R1014, R1016, R1054, R1091, R1112, R1162, R1173, R1203,

D1332 and D2141, in accordance with the Appropriation Act, 2024, and is reduced by the amount specified in the third column of the Second Schedule.” Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. (Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

Yes, I have an amendment. Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the First Schedule to the Bill be deleted and replaced with the following new Schedule— First Schedule

First Schedule

Is that the Second Schedule? I have an amendment to Clause 2 of the Bill. The Temporary Chairman

: You have an amendment to the Second Schedule.

Yes, I have it. Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Second Schedule to the Bill be amended and replaced with the new Schedule— Second Schedule

Second Schedule

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by deleting the expression “one hundred and twenty-two billion, four hundred and twenty-eight million, nine hundred and seventy-four thousand, four hundred and nineteen shillings” appearing before the words “the sum of” and substituting therefor the expression, “one hundred and forty-one billion, nine hundred and seventy-four million, one hundred and ninety-four thousand and ninety-six shillings.” Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Members, you realise that the amendments being moved by the Chairperson of the Liaison Committee are all being moved under Standing Order 48. I would like the Chairperson of the Liaison Committee to be on record on the manner of those amendments.

Thank you. I wish to confirm that the amendments that I have moved are under Standing Order 48.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. The Temporary Chairman

: Thank you.

The Temporary Chairman

: We move reporting of this Bill. Mover.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the Supplementary Appropriation Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 8 of 2025) , and its approval thereof with amendments.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Members, we will not report but move to the next Bill. Leader of the Majority Party, I hope you are around.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be amended in sub clause

(4)

by deleting the words “subsection 3

(d)

and

(e)

” and substituting therefor the words “subsection 3

(e)

and

(f)

”. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. The Temporary Chairman

: Do you want to explain in a second what it means?

Do you want me to go to the next? The Temporary Chairman

: No. State what the amendment is about.

It is just a correction of some typographical errors.

(Question, that the words to be left out

be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the First Schedule to the Bill be deleted and replaced with the following new Schedule— Conditional Additional Allocations to County Governments from National Government’s Share of Revenue in FY 2024/25 (Kenya Shillings)

Conditional Additional Allocations to County Governments from National Government’s Share of Revenue in FY 2024/25 (Kenya Shillings)

Third Schedule

THAT, the Third Schedule to the Bill be deleted and replaced with the following new Schedule—

Conditional Additional Allocations from proceeds of loans or grants from Development Partners for Financial Year 2024/25 (Kenya Shillings)

Conditional Additional Allocations from proceeds of loans or grants from Development Partners for Financial Year 2024/25 (Kenya Shillings)

Put the question. The Temporary Chairman

: Are you sure about that?

Yes.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the County Governments Additional Allocations Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 2 of 2025) , and its approval thereof with amendments.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Members, we will now vacate reporting and move to the next Bill.

provisions of Article 114 of the Constitution. For clarity, Article 114(2) of the Constitution provides:

“If, in the opinion of the Speaker, a motion makes provisions for a matter listed in the definition of a Money Bill, the Assembly may proceed only in accordance with the recommendation of the relevant Committee after taking into account the views of the Cabinet Secretary for Finance.” Under Article 114(3) of the Constitution, a Money Bill includes matters that contain provisions dealing with, inter alia, taxation; the imposition of charges on a public Fund; the appropriation, receipt, custody, investment or issue of public money; and, the raising and guaranteeing of any loan or its repayment. The principal object of the Public Finance Management (Amendment) (No.2) Bill, 2024 that is before the House is to amend the Public Finance Management Act (CAP. 412A) to align the timelines for the consideration and passage of the Finance Bill by county assemblies and the National Assembly.

However, you will notice that certain proposed amendments to the Bill by the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning contain a disclaimer as indicated in the Supplementary Order Paper for this afternoon Sitting. Therefore, I will guide the House with regard to the manner of consideration of the various amendments.

Hon. Members, I have analysed the amendments proposed to the said Bill and noted that New Clauses 4F, 4G, 4H, and 4I contain proposals touching on matters listed in the definition of a Money Bill, pursuant to the provisions of Article 114(2) of the Constitution.

The amendments propose the creation of a Public Sector Accounting Standards Board as a corporate body. This will lead to additional public expenditure contrary to Article 114 of the Constitution. New Clause 4H, in particular, provides that the funds of the Board shall include monies appropriated by the National Assembly.

In view of the Cabinet directive dated 21st January 2025 on rationalisation of state corporations, there is need to undertake further consultations on the establishment of that Board. As such, I direct that the Committee of the whole House shall not consider any amendments published in the Order Paper with a disclaimer. The Bill will proceed without referring to the proposed amendments. As I have said, they are New Clauses 4F, 4G, 4H, and 4I. The Bill will be considered as though the amendments have been withdrawn.

The House is accordingly guided. I thank you. Members, let us start. Clause 3

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): There is an amendment to this Clause. Mover.

THAT, Clause 3 of the Bill be amended in the proposed New Section 131A (4) —

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that New Clause 1A be now read a Second Time.

This is an amendment to the principal Act by introducing this New Clause 1A. All Government entities are required to submit their financial statements to the Auditor-General for audit within three months before December. However, those three months give the Auditor- General too little time. The end of a financial year is 30th June. The three months that follow are July, August and September.

The Auditor-General is left with only October, November and December to consider the financial statements, do audit, require accounting officers to do a management response, and submit a report to this House by the 31st December. This new clause is reducing the time in which accounting officers present their financial statement to the Auditor-General from three months to two months.

The Temporary Chairman

: Thank you.

(Question, that the new clause be read a Second Time, proposed) (Question, that the new clause be read a Second Time, put and agreed to) (Question, that the new clause be added to the Bill, put and agreed to) New Clause 1B

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after the proposed New Clause 1A— Amendment of Section 24 of Cap. 412A. 1B. The principal Act is amended in Section 24 (10) by deleting the words “three months” appearing in paragraph (b) and substituting therefor the words “two months”. (The new clause was read a First Time) The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): I call the Mover to move Second Reading.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that New Clause 1B be now read a Second Time.

The clause is similar to New Clause 1A. Its explanation will be similar or consistent with so many other clauses. We are reducing time to submit financial statements from three months to two months.

New Clause 1C

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after the proposed New Clause 1B— Amendment of Section 68 of Cap. 412A. 1C. The principal Act is amended in Section 68—

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that New Clause 1C be now read a Second Time.

Section 68 (4) of the PFM Act is only concerned with recommendations in respect of a report submitted by the Controller of Budget. It is silent on the responsibility of accounting officers in implementing Parliament's recommendations in respect to a report submitted by the Auditor-General. Further, the proposed amendment seeks to provide time for submission of financial statements by public entities to two months.

The fundamental amendment here is that, when the audit committees consider reports of the Auditor-General and make recommendations, there is no requirement in law for accounting officers to consider recommendations passed by this House. That is why, in all audit reports, you find there is a recurring report as to what happened in the previous year. You will find the same recommendation being made the following year. This provision will now require accounting officers to follow the recommendations made by this House after the consideration of the audited reports by the Auditor-General.

New Clause 1D

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after the proposed New Clause 1C— Amendment of Section 80 of Cap. 412A. 1D. The principal Act is amended in Section 80 by deleting the words “four months” appearing in subsection (4) and substituting therefor the words “two months”.

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Mover.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that New Clause 1D be now read a Second Time.

Again, this is a reduction from three to two months.

New clause 1E

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after the proposed New Clause 1D— Amendment of Section 81 of Cap. 412A. 1E. The principal Act is amended in Section 81 by deleting the words “three months” appearing in subsection

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that New Clause 1E be now read a Second Time.

As explained, the clause reduces time from three to two months.

New Clause 1F

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after the proposed New Clause 1E— Amendment of Section 84 of Cap. 412A. 1F. The principal Act is amended in Section 82 —

I beg to move that New Clause 1F be now read a Second Time.

This amendment is similar to New Clauses 1A, 1B and 1E on the reduction of time from three to two months.

New Clause 1G

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after the proposed New Clause 1F— Amendment of Section 115 of Cap. 412A. 1G. The principal Act is amended in Section 115 by deleting the words “three months” appearing in subsection (1) and substituting therefor the words “two months”.

The Temporary Chairman

: Mover.

I beg to move that New Clause 1G be now read a Second Time.

It is similar to the other clauses on reduction of time from three to two months.

New Clause 1H

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after the proposed New Clause 1G— Amendment of Section 116 of Cap. 412A.

I beg to move that New Clause 1H be now read a Second Time.

Again, this is a reduction of time from three to two months.

New Clause 4A

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after Clause 4— Amendment of Section 149 of Cap. 412A. 4A. The principal Act is amended in Section 149—

I beg to move that New Clause 4A be now read a Second Time.

This is similar to the clauses I read earlier. It requires accounting officers to follow recommendations approved by the National Assembly or the Senate.

New Clause 4B

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after proposed New Clause 4A— Amendment of Section 163 of Cap. 412A. 4B. The principal Act is amended in Section 163 by deleting the words “four months” appearing in subsection (4) and substituting therefor the words “two months”.

The Temporary Chairman

: Mover.

I beg to move that the new clause 4B be now read a Second Time.

Again, this is a reduction of time from three to two months.

New Clause 4C

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after proposed New Clause 4B— Amendment of Section 164 of Cap. 412A. 4C. The principal Act is amended in Section 164 by deleting the words “three months” appearing

in subsection (4) and substituting therefor the words “two months”.

I beg to move that New Clause 4C be now read a Second Time.

Similarly, it reduces time from three months to two months.

New Clause 4D

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after proposed New Clause 4C— Amendment of Section 165 of Cap. 412A. 4D. The principal Act is amended in Section 165 by deleting the words “three months” appearing in subsection (3) and substituting therefor the words “two months”.

The Temporary Chairman

: Mover.

I beg to move that the new clause 4D be now read a Second Time.

New Clause 4E

THAT, the principal Act be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after proposed New Clause 4D—

Amendment of Section 167 of Cap. 412A. 4E. The principal Act is amended in Section 167 by deleting the words “three months” appearing in subsection (3) and substituting therefor the words “two months”.

I beg to move that New Clause 4E be now read a Second Time.

Again, this is a reduction of time from three months to two months.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Members, as you know from the Communication, New Clauses 4F, 4G, 4H and 4I, fall in limine based on Article 1442 of the Constitution.

Clause 2

The Temporary Chairman

: There is an amendment by the Chair.

I beg to move: THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words “Public Finance Management Act,

,” and substituting therefor the words “Principal Act”. This amendment is arising due to the proposed amendment in New Clause 1A. It is a consequential amendment.

(Question, that the words to be left

out be left out, put and agreed to)

I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the Public Finance Management (Amendment) (No.2) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.26 of 2024) , and its approval thereof with amendments.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Members, we will now move to the Insurance Professionals Bill,

(National Assembly Bill No.13 of 2024)

. The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning is prosecuting this. Hon. Chairperson, are you ready?

Give me a minute.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am moving an amendment to drop the amendment proposed in Clause 4.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Members, because the amendment is dropped, I now put the Question.

Clause 5

The Temporary Chairman

: Mover.

THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be amended—

THAT, Clause 6 of the Bill be amended—

I beg to move: THAT, clause 10 of the Bill is amended by deleting subclause (5) and substituting therefor the following new subclause—

The Executive Director of the Institute of Insurance Professionals.

(Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, Clause 15 of the Bill be amended in subclause (1) by deleting the words “and who shall serve under the direction and control of the Executive Director”. This amendment seeks to cure a potential risk of conflict of interest given that both the Registrar and the Executive Director are appointed by the board. The flow of responsibility of the operations of the Institute may be affected if the subclause is retained in its current form.

The Temporary Chairman

: Thank you.

Clause 17

The Temporary Chairman

: Mover.

THAT, Clause 17 of the Bill be amended—

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I just want a further clarification from the Chairman, specifically where he says one person nominated by the recognised insurance training institutions who are members of the institute. Just give us a hypothetical scenario on the practicability of the same because there will be very many. What mechanism do you think can be put in place to ensure that there is a rotational basis and that we do not only pick from one place all the years? Just a clarification so that people out there can start figuring out how to prepare themselves to get to the board.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, the amendments that this House has processed in terms of those clauses are mostly providing for ensuring strict adherence to Mwongozo directives. Again, the terms of this particular institute, whether it is the board members, have a term limit. Therefore, we are expecting that with the consideration of following best practices and Mwongozo guidelines, then consequently a limited term follows. Those board members will start to be on a rotational basis. Most importantly, this again will have to be voted on when you go to elections for the Institute. I belong to the Institute of Certified Public Accountants and there is usually a need to find that rotation. I see it within those professional bodies. I do not think it is a point of concern that needs to be made in law because that will make it again too administrative.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Chepkong’a, Hon. Oundo is sufficiently informed.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. It is important to inform Hon. (Dr) Oundo sufficiently and adequately. What the Chairman seeks to amend is, indeed, very right. You must be listening to former Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) like myself.

The Temporary Chairman

: When and where were you a CEO?

I know you are well informed, Hon. Temporary Chairman.

The Temporary Chairman

: I am not.

I was a former Communications Commission of Kenya (CCK) CEO and founder. That is why I agree with what the Hon. Chairman has said because it is very important to have distinguished CEOs who can be nominated like I was to the Global Leaders for Tomorrow in 2000. This is what we are seeking to do.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Oundo, you have a distinguished CEO here.

Clause 20

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I wish to withdraw the proposed amendment to clause 20.

Clause 24

THAT, clause 24 of the Bill be amended in subclause (4) by deleting the words “to a fine not exceeding fifty thousand shillings or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding six months or to both” and substituting therefor the words “to a fine not exceeding one hundred thousand shillings or to imprisonment for period not exceeding six months or to both”.

Here, we are providing a penalty. We are seeking to enhance the fine to make it commensurate to the offence. A higher penalty would act as a stronger deterrent against dishonesty in the registration process.

(Question of the amendment proposed)

Put the question.

Clause 25

THAT, clause 25 (1) of the Bill be amended-

THAT, clause 28 be amended in subclause (1) by inserting the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph (b) -

“

(c)

at the member’s request.” This provides an opportunity for cancellation of membership at a member’s request.

(Question, that the words to be inserted be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, clause 30 of the Bill be amended-

Thank you Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support this amendment because many times we have had problems with professionals due to the absence of statement ‘the Insurance Regulatory Authority (IRA) or any other institute that is supposed to control the profession.’ Before going to court, the institute should be able to deal with them internally as professionals.

With those remarks, I support the amendment. The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Oundo.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, in principle, the amendment is okay. It is a standard procedure in all professions. However, this particular amendment refers to an insurance professional who is found to be practising together with a professional whose licence has been cancelled.

I am wondering because it becomes a bit tricky and it might be injurious to the profession. How would one know that someone’s licence has been cancelled? What mechanism can we put in place to gazette? Will you announce it in daily newspapers? There are people in this country who we know do not have driving licences, but they continue to drive motor vehicles. Another one knows that he is not a policeman, but he goes ahead to establish a police station in his compound. There are many imposters and fraudsters in this country. We should not end up punishing someone and yet there is the law.

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Hon. Oundo, there are registers for engineers, lawyers, architects and other professionals in this country. There is a way they are registered and they also continuing with professional development. It is a no-brainer.

(Question, that the words to be inserted be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, clause 34 of the Bill be deleted. The deletion of this clause ensures that the professional who appears before the disciplinary committee…

I am sorry, Hon. Temporary Chairman. After further consultations, the amendment is withdrawn.

Based on what Hon. Chairman has just said, I will put the Question.

Clause 40

THAT, clause 40 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new subclause immediately after subclause

(2)

- “

(3)

The Cabinet Secretary, in consultation with the institute, shall, in the notice under subsection

(1)

, prescribe the procedure for obtaining a practising certificate to be followed by insurance professionals who were in practice on the date of the commencement of this Act.” This provides for a transitional clause from when the institute is registered on how those professionals would continue to practise and get their practising certificates.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Chepkong’a.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I totally support the proposed amendment by the Chairman of the Committee. For purposes of abundance of caution, I would like to add that whatever the Cabinet Secretary shall prescribe must be in the regulations. It cannot be in any other form such as a letter or circular. There must be regulations that will be brought to this House for approval.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman.

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Member for Funyula.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, that is what we call in many places “godfather clause”, which protects the status quo. As the former CEO has said, we must have a system .…

The Temporary Chairman

: The former distinguished CEO.

As the former distinguished CEO to young people of 2020 has said. That is a “godfather clause” which normally protects the existing professionals whether they have qualifications or not.

However, we hasten to add that in setting procedures, as clearly put, they must be very accountable and verifiable so that we do not carry along people of bad repute and of low professional standards to the new dispensation.

I support.

New Clause

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after clause 37 A – Funds of the Examination Board 37A. The funds of the Examinations Board shall consist of—

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the new clause 37A be read a Second Time.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, this new clause 37A provides for funding for the institute without having to be appropriated through taxpayers’ money. This is a way of making sure that no Government resources will be used in the institute. The institute will be set up by fees they are going to charge for the examinations and the membership fees.

The Temporary Chairman

(David Ochieng’)

: Hon. Muge.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. Before you put the question, I want to appreciate this clause. Considering the fact that of late,

as a country, we have been amalgamating other institutions to remove institutions that were previously funded by the Exchequer, this is very progressive and in tandem with what we are trying to do in order to reduce Exchequer funding of organisations that can generate their own income and run their businesses.

I support the amendment,

Hon. Oundo.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I totally support the amendment. I associate myself with the statement directly from the Cabinet – that, henceforth, all professional bodies must fund their activities independent of Government Exchequer so that they can be independent enough to check the excesses of the Government. The world over, professional bodies check the government. If such bodies are funded by the government, they will have no moral authority to question and oversee the government. We should look at all laws that establish professional organisations and quickly, review their legal frameworks to align them with this policy.

I support the amendment.

First Schedule

The Temporary Chairman (David Ochieng’) : Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the First Schedule to the Bill be amended––

It is elective. The Temporary Chairman (David Ochieng’) : The Mwongozo Code of Governance does not talk about elective chairperson. Does it talk about elections?

Mwongozo talks about the term of the board. The ideal term is three years.

The Temporary Chairman

(David Ochieng’)

: Hon. Chairman, you belong to the Institute of Certified Public Accountants of Kenya

(ICPAC)

and you know that your chairpersons are now elected for two years once. In the Law Society of Kenya

(LSK)

, we do it two years once.

(Question, that the words to be left

out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

THAT, the Fourth Schedule to the Bill be amended in paragraph 8 by deleting sub-paragraph (2) . The amendment seeks to align this law with the provisions of the Constitution, particularly Article 52 (1) , so that an accused person can have the right to remain silent and not to give evidence during any proceedings, or to give self-incriminating evidence.

Paragraph 8 (2) of the Fourth Schedule provides that a person commits an offence if that person, when appearing as a witness before the disciplinary committee, refuses or fails to be sworn in; refuses or fails to answer a question that is required to be answered by the chairperson of the disciplinary committee; refuses or fails to produce documents that are required by a sermon that is served to him under the Act.

It is the duty of the disciplinary committee or any person who aligns wrongdoing on the part of an insurance professional to adduce sufficient evidence to prove the wrongdoing. It is the constitutional right under Article 52 (1) that a person has the right to remain silent and not to give evidence during any proceedings or to give any self-incriminating evidence.

This provision is similar to the provision of the Constitution of the United States, where an accused person says, ‘I plead the fifth.’

The Temporary Chairman

(David Ochieng’)

: Do you plead the ‘fifth’?

Clause 2

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am not so sure but I think the amendment to clause 2 was to be withdrawn. I am sorry. Let me consult.

The Temporary Chairman (David Ochieng’) : Go ahead. I want you to consult your clerks so that you are clear on this one. According to the Order Paper, you are amending Clause

THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the Insurance Professionals Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.13 of 2024) , and its approval thereof with amendments.

The Temporary Chairman

: Hon. Members, as you may be aware, we will be reporting on all the four Bills we have considered in the Committee of the whole House. I, therefore, urge you to be alert.

Chairperson of Committee of the whole House, can we proceed?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Supplementary Appropriation Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.8 of 2025) , and approved the same with amendments.

Mover, can you move the motion of agreement?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the report of the Committee of the whole House on its consideration of the Supplementary Appropriation Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.8 of 2025) .

I request Hon. Oron to second.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I second.

Let us move to the next Bill. I will give a few minutes for consultations.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, allow me to say something as you consult.

Leader of Majority Party, what do you want to say?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I just want to thank Members for availing themselves for this very important task of appropriating resources through the Supplementary Appropriation Bill. Once we finish with this business, tomorrow morning, we will avail more resources for expenditure to the people who have been waiting for the money.

I know that many people have pending bills and have been told to wait for the passage of the Supplementary Budget. Hopefully, from next week, they will be sorted. This includes those who are waiting for payments from the Primary Healthcare Fund and those who are waiting for their Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) to be honoured.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. Hon. Members, I defer putting the Question to a later day, when the matter will be scheduled for disposal by the House Business Committee.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the County Governments Additional Allocations Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.2 of 2025) , and approved the same with amendments.

Leader of the Majority Party, proceed.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report.

I request Hon. Naomi Waqo to second the motion on agreement with the report of the Committee of the whole House.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I second the motion.

Hon. Members, I also defer putting of the Question to the next time the Bill will be scheduled for disposal.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Public Finance Management (Amendment) (No.2) , (National Assembly Bill No.26 of 2024) , and approved the same with amendments.

Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning, can you move the motion for agreement with

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report.

I request Hon. Cynthia Muge, the great County Member of Parliament for Nandi, to second the motion.

Hon. Cynthia, you may proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I second the motion.

Hon. Members, I defer putting of the Question to another time.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Insurance Professionals Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.13 of 2024) , and approved the same with amendments.

Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report.

I request Hon. David Mboni, the Member for Kitui Rural, to second the motion.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to second.

Hon. Members, I also defer putting of the Question on this Bill until next time.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

What is out of order, Leader of the Majority Party?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, there is nothing that is out of order. I rise pursuant to Standing Order 31, on adjournment of the House.

Hon. Members will remember the substantive Speaker’s Communication that today we will be having a solidarity dinner with our colleagues of the Muslim faith.

I, therefore, move that the House do now adjourn to tomorrow morning. We have amended our calendar and introduced a special sitting for tomorrow morning, beginning at

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I second.

Thank you very much, Member for Muhoroni.

Hon. Members, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow Friday, 14th March 2025, at 10.00 am.

The House rose at 5.47 pm.

Published by Clerk of the National Assembly Parliament Buildings Nairobi