May 23, 2014 SENATE DEBATES Friday, 23rd May, 2014 Special Sitting

Hon. Senators, pursuant to Article 181 of the Constitution and Section 33 of the County Governments Act No.17of 2012, on 14th May 2014, the County Assembly of Kericho approved a Motion “to remove from office by impeachment”, the County Governor of Kericho County. By letter dated 15th May 2014, and received in the Office of the Speaker of the Senate on 16th May 2014, the Speaker of the County Assembly of Kericho informed the Speaker of the Senate of the approval of the Motion by the County Assembly and further forwarded to the Speaker of the Senate the following documents:-

May 23, 2014 SENATE DEBATES CONVENING OF SPECIAL SITTING OF THE SENATE TO ESTABLISH A COMMITTEE TO HEAR CHARGES AGAINST THE GOVERNOR FOR KERICHO COUNTY

all Senators not only in plenary, but also should the Motion by the Senate Majority Leader pass, by those Senators who shall be called upon to serve on the Special Committee. This is as much of a judicial process as it is a political one.

Thank you. Next Order!

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, Sir. I stand to seek your guidance if we are satisfying the provisions of Standing Order No.68 1 (a) . Standing Order No.68

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The importance of the point of order by Sen. Khaniri is such that we do not proceed in accordance with Section 68 (1) (a) . It will then make it difficult for us or for those Senators who will not be in this Committee to be properly apprised of the charges. It is important that if we choose to form this Committee, the charges should be the property of the House, formally in the normal manner so that as they proceed, we also will be familiarizing ourselves with those charges with a view of contributing from the recommendations of that Committee and also from our own little research that we shall have done. Therefore, I request that you rule on Sen. Khaniri’s point of order and probably find that he is in order.

As usual, I want to thank Sen. Khaniri for being keen in terms of pointing out some of these things, except he is not reading it in entirety. This House works in two ways and the Motion also proposes that you can exploit both options. First is to determine this matter at the plenary which is an option we are given but also says that we may, as a House, decide to go the Committee way. So, when we have the Motion before us – I thought I explained it in my communication – that the Motion is debating the special committee of 11 Members. If we defeat that Motion, then

plenary. So, I think that is very clear. What I think you may be concerned a bit is part (b) in terms of hearing of the charges. Now my argument would be that the charges can be heard at the plenary, but those charges are also part of the documents that have already been submitted to you for your consideration for the reasons that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has suggested. So you are already seized of the matter.

Secondly, you remember whenever an issue comes to the Floor, we are always being petitioned or a Statement is being sought from a Chair of a Committee. We are basically referred to as a House. When it is referred to the Committee, the Committee is acting on behalf of the House. By the time it comes to the plenary, that is when all of us become again seized of the same matter. So, I do not see any violation of the Standing No.68 (1) because of the way we have proposed to proceed.

Senate Majority Leader!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to give Notice of the following Motion:-

THAT, WHEREAS, pursuant to Article 181 of the Constitution and section 33 of the County Governments Act, 2012, on 14th May, 2014, the County Assembly of Kericho approved a Motion “to remove from office, by impeachment,” the County Governor of Kericho County;

AND FURTHER, WHEREAS by letter dated 15th May, 2014 (Ref: KCA/GOV/Vol./1) and received in the Office of the Speaker of the Senate on 16th May, 2014, the Speaker of the County Assembly of Kericho informed the Speaker of the Senate of the approval of the Motion by the County Assembly and further forwarded to the Speaker of the Senate documents in evidence of the proceedings of the Assembly;

AND WHEREAS, pursuant to section 33 (3) (b) of the County Governments Act, 2012 and standing order 68 (1) (b) of the Senate, the Senate by resolution may appoint a special committee comprising eleven of its Members to investigate the matter;

NOW THEREFORE, pursuant to section 33 (3) (b) of the County Governments Act, 2012 and standing order 68 (1) (b) , the Senate resolves to establish a special Committee comprising the following Senators -

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:-

THAT, whereas pursuant to Article 181 of the Constitution and Section 33 of the County Governments Act, 2012, on 14th May, 2014, the County Assembly of Kericho approved a Motion “to remove from office, by impeachment,” the County Governor of Kericho County;

AND FURTHER, WHEREAS by letter dated 15th May, 2014 (Ref: KCA/GOV/Vol./1) and received in the Office of the Speaker of the Senate on 16th May, 2014, the Speaker of the County Assembly of Kericho informed the Speaker of the Senate of the approval of the Motion by the County Assembly and further forwarded to the Speaker of the Senate documents in evidence of the proceedings of the Assembly;

AND WHEREAS, pursuant to section 33 (3) (b) of the County Governments Act, 2012 and Standing Order 68 (1) (b) of the Senate, the Senate by resolution, may appoint a special committee comprising eleven of its Members to investigate the matter;

NOW ,THEREFORE, pursuant to Section 33 (3) (b) of the County Governments Act, 2012 and Standing Order 68 (1) (b) , the Senate resolves to establish a special committee comprising the following Senators -

to report to the Senate within ten (10) days of its appointment on whether it finds the particulars of the allegations to have been substantiated.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are here again, within a very short period of time on yet another impeachment, in particular, the impeachment of a county governor. Looking at the mood of my colleagues in this House, I note a feeling that perhaps in the coming months and years, this is one of the duties that this House may have to deal with, unpleasant and as disruptive as it is. My remarks about “disruptive” and “unpleasant” are deliberate. I am sure that every county in this country would want to see, from this House, deliberations that deal with development issues, empowerment of counties, strengthening of devolution and streamlining of relationships between the two levels of government. Those are things that excite and encourage both the Senate and the county governments.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the drafters of our Constitution four years ago had foreseen this matter that we are dealing with here today. It is for that reason that they found wisdom in providing that this House, as it does all other things including legislation, passing budgets and finances, representing and protecting counties, will have to exercise the power, in appropriate cases, to discuss the possibility of removing from office a governor of a county who has violated the law in any manner within the five grounds that are provided for under Article 181 of the Constitution. Let us not run away from our constitutional responsibilities. Let us not be cowed, as a House, from confronting the issues of governance, probity, accountability and due process that are required in the Constitution because it is only in doing that, that we can---

Hoja ya nidhamu Bw. Spika. Singependa kumkatiza Kiongozi wa Wengi lakini amesema kwamba jukumu la Seneti hii ni ku-impeach magavana. Hakuendelea kusema kwamba Katiba inaongea juu ya gavana na Rais. Ni sawa kwake kutaja magavana pekee bila kutaja Rais?

Kiongozi wa Wengi.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to appreciate the point of order from my brother, the Senator for Kwale County. In your Communication this afternoon, you have just said that we are focused on a very specific agenda today.

No! No!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I listened to you very carefully. I did not hear you say that today we are here to discuss on the role of the Senate and who the Senate has powers to impeach. Now that the matter has arisen and for the record – I am sure my brother has heard me, even outside this House – it is not secret, we are all aware that the President of this country is impeachable, very

this House has the last say in that process.

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki. You had started well. I do not know why you decided to digress. In fact, you had listened very carefully and I was about to commend you for that and for applying what you heard. Those other things can find their place another time.

Proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Therefore, let us make it clear, at least in my perspective, that it should not be a question of how many governors we receive who have been recommended for impeachment. For me, that is not the question. The deeper question must be how meritious and justified is whatever proposals we get in this House and how we determine those requests. Therefore, this Motion being in connection with the establishment of a special committee, I have seen in this list a very broad representation of the two major political parties in this House. There is also consideration for gender and regional diversity. I have also seen that because this is the second committee of this nature, if formed, none of the Members who is proposed here has served in the previous committee. This is good practice. I know nothing prevents the same Senators from sitting in this committee again and again but it is only fair that we give as many Senators as possible a chance to participate in this very critical and solemn duty of accountability in our counties.

This afternoon, therefore, once again the proposed Senators are confronted with battling with the balances that must be created firstly with regard to the role of Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) in this process and with regard to protecting, entrenching and supporting the role of MCAs to oversight county executives. That is one pillar of the balances that these men and women; the hon. Senators; will be confronted with. That role is constitutional. The role of the MCAs is legitimate and it is so critical if devolution has to survive. As we have said many times, devolution is not just about pumping money, resources and authority to the grassroots. It is also about dispersing accountability to the lowest level of governance.

This Committee will be hoisted with the very critical responsibility of reflecting the maturity and objectivity of this House that has been established without question. Therefore, our approach and through our colleagues in terms of complying with the County Governments Act, the Constitution and our Standing Orders, discharging this duty will be very critical .

The proposed Committee will also help us, hopefully, when they do their report to try and help the Senate and this country to be able to understand how we can strengthen accountability and create the appropriate balances at the county level, so that no arm of government is subordinate to the other. I say this because if you look at Article 96 of the Constitution - and the Committee should really help us grapple with this matter - this Article talks about representing and protecting counties and county governments. The term “county governments” refers to the two arms of government that have been devolved at the county because at the national level, we have three arms of government. But in our devolution structure, one arm, which is the Judiciary, is not devolved.

Senate, is to protect both arms of Government at the county level namely; the County Executive and also the County Legislature. Therefore, the balances must be brought out very well. I have no doubt that this Committee will do a good job. I see eminent lawyers, I see my brother Sen. Kiraitu Murungi, a very seasoned legal mind on this list. I see Sen. Billow Kerrow, a seasoned and consummate expert in finance and public affairs. I see in this list distinguished young minds like my brother, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr; usually very brief but to the point although sometimes I do not like some of his----

Catherine, a Banker!

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki! How does that account for you reading Beatrice to Catherine?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was just explaining that by the time you realize you are talking about my sister, Sen. Mukiite, you have to read a sentence of names and it is one person.

Like if it is a wedding, during a funeral, the final rites. But in ordinary times, we want to hear Agnes Zani, Kithure Kindiki, Moses Wetanguala and so on.

I want to say that I have a lot of faith in all my colleagues in this list. Each one of them brings some background whether from the private or public sectors that will enrich the work of this Committee.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in all this, I hope the Committee will go with an open mind. Of course, I do not expect that any Member of this honourable House will be prejudiced because our work is to ensure that in all these things, justice is done. As the third stanza of our National Anthem says, “Let justice be our shield and defender”. So, the Committee is not supposed to support the Governor, the MCAs or the Senate at the expense of other institutions. It is simply to help this Senate to do justice.

As I end my remarks, through this Committee and given the thoroughness of the work that we expect them to give us, this Senate will once again confirm that this is a House of refuge for those that feel that they have been oppressed or treated unfairly. I want to believe that this Committee will bring out this Senate as a House which is not shy to bite when it must but a House which also, when matters are not substantiated, is not ashamed to say “no”. That is the open mindedness that we expect to see from this Committee.

Finally, on my behalf as the Mover of this Motion and as a Senator and Leader of the Majority, I want to send – and I believe I am talking, on behalf of my colleagues – a message to county governments, the Executive and the Legislature, that the Senate is not interested in anything else other than ensuring that the law is followed. All governors in this country who are doing a good job must be protected, respected and dignified to continue with the good job. But in the same vein, all governors who are looting and they think that the county coffers are private family resources, be warned that the Senate of the Republic of Kenya will hunt you down and make sure we send you not only out of your office, but to jail forever.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to move. In the tradition of this House, I want to request my great friend, brother and---

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : And Senior in the legal profession!

Senior in the legal profession - I am not so sure whether he is still an active lawyer, because I still am. I call upon my junior in this House, Sen. Moses Masika Wetangula, to come and second the Motion.

Senior in the legal profession - I am not so sure whether he is still an active lawyer, because I still am. I call upon my junior in this House, Sen. Moses Masika Wetangula, to come and second the Motion.

doing so, we shall be discharging a very important constitutional responsibility. The drafters of our Constitution were very conscious of the fact that while somebody can legitimately go into office, they can also run amok once they are in the office. It should not be lost on us that Adolf Hitler was popularly elected by a landslide. When he got into office, he embarked on a misadventure that burnt the whole world. We have many small “Hitlers” all over, in the economic sense and in many other ways who get into office legitimately and embark on totally untenable things.

As we do so, we want our brothers, the Governors, out there to rest assured and be advised by this Senate that no Governor will come to this House to be punished on behalf of other Governors. No Governor will come here carrying the collective guilt of other Governors. Governors who end up in a situation such as this come here as individuals, are heard on their merit and their issues are decided on merit. This Senate Chamber is not and shall not be a slaughterhouse for Governors. We want to assure Governors that they must work without fear and that they must not fear to work. This is simply because the law protects them. However, the law is also there to take care of excesses.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are many challenges facing devolution. As I said the other day – I want to repeat the quote where my good friend, Mumo Matemu of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) said; “there are no Governors who are thieves. However, there are thieves who have found their way into the offices of the Governors.” When this happens, we must apply the law fairly and justly.

The whole country is looking at this Senate. Unlike the previous hearing, I want to urge that once we meet the timelines of what we have done this afternoon and the Committee brings the Report within ten days, when the matter comes for debate, we must fully ventilate and examine the procedures used, look at the facts placed before the County Assembly and see how the facts have been articulated before the Committee.

On that note, I want to refer to Standing Order No.68(1)(a) and (b) and encourage my distinguished colleagues - Sen. Khaniri, Sen. Boni Khalwale and Sen. Justice Madzayo - who were feeling restless as to whether we are doing the right thing. We are right because you cannot read Standing Order No.68(1)(a) and ignore (b). You must read both. If you want to table charges here, you should not go to “b.” If you want to go to committee, you leave “a” and go to “b.”

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to laud you for that very wise and just ruling on the issue of procedure. I know that you said that we should not go beyond approving the names. I want to say that the 11 names that were brought before you have been through very thorough consultations. We have no doubt that each and every distinguished Senator here can sit on any Committee. We have picked those names very carefully. If you look at all of them, you will see that they have distinguished records in public service and even in their debates in this House.

I have no doubt that we have lawyers, former Ministers, bankers and others who will deliver a verdict that we can all carry proudly out there and say that this is a House full of just men and women who hear people without fear and give a judgment that one can go home with and say; yes, they were heard. If they were charged guilty, they will still say that they were heard fairly.

that we should avoid carrying this debate beyond the Chamber so that we are not seen to prejudice what we are going to do. The Committee will be the agent of this House and each and every one of us should sit down and wait for our agents to go and bring back the product that we expect upon which we will vote.

Some of the challenges facing Governors today are of their own making. Sometimes, you hear things that border on the bizarre. When a Governor, without any curl of right in law and, in fact, elects his wife in the county as the first lady and opens an office for her and spends public money, that is wrong. There are many of them doing this. This message has to be sent to them. You will feel embarrassed going to a function and you hear a Governor standing up say; “the first lady is here.” The “first” lady then stands up and says; “my office has established and funded this and that and will work hand in hand with the office of the Governor--.” These kinds of excesses are irritating and amount to improper use of public funds. In fact, they amount to theft of public funds. The amount of time we spend here to fight for resources to go to counties makes us expect nothing less than accountability from our Governors. Wherever such situations arise, we must do our work fairly.

As I end, I want to encourage the Committee because they will sit immediately after this to elect a good Chairman, Vice Chairman and work as a team so that at the end of the day, the annals of history – I want to congratulate Lenny Kivuti for finding his Speaker who had disappeared or vanished. We hope that his health is okay and that nothing dangerous will happen to him.

The Committee must work as a team. We have enough researchers who can help them in matters of law, facts and accountancy expertise. I heard the Senate Majority Leader heap praises on my brother, Billow Kerrow. We expect a lot of industry from his expertise. He should tell us yes, there was wrong doing or there was no wrong doing and we move on.

Finally, I want to encourage my brothers and sisters across the Floor, as we protect Governors, devolution and the entire system of devolution, please, gentlemen and gentlewomen in Jubilee, we want to urge you to stop derailing devolution through irrelevant activities like strengthening provincial administration. These are things that will cause Governors to feel jittery, undermined and under siege.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Senate Minority Leader in order to introduce unhealthy, unhelpful and dishonest political issues in a Motion to establish this Committee? In particular, is the Senate Minority Leader in order to talk about the Jubilee Coalition strengthening the provincial administration at the expense of county governments? He is aware that this matter has already been discussed by the President, by all Governors in their Council and they agreed that the issue was handled professionally, constitutionally and legitimately. So, is he in order to introduce politics in this Motion?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Do you have to flog a dead horse, really? One, the Senate Majority Leader must appreciate that Senate Minority Leader is seconding his Motion. He should be the last person to challenge the person seconding.

That is not out of place. The only problem with that is that he should not introduce the topic during this particular Motion. I made it abundantly clear what this purpose should be. I determined the boundaries; they are that narrow. We are talking about the Committee. He had started very well. I do not know why when he said that he was concluding.

the basis of the facts and the law.

I want to appreciate the fact that we have now set a precedence and threshold on the issue of impeachment. I think we have already set the bar where it belongs. I want to repeat the fact that this particular competency and constitutional authority, having been placed in the Senate is for a very good reason. I hope that we, as Senators, will not abuse that responsibility but will do justice to every case that comes before us. Even if they come in their myriads, that will not be the point. At the end of the day, we will want to see justice in every case. If a Governor is brought before us on frivolous grounds, then the Committee will have the responsibility to throw out that case even before the Senate can sit.

The only thing that I am worried about is the people’s sense of justice. If you look at the cases that are being talked about out there and the one that has appeared here before, it is about the use of resources. It is all about resources; how we are using public resources. You remember this fundamental principle of “no taxation

without representation”. The people are concerned about the manner in which we use their resources. In law, there is also a question of symmetry and fairness globally. We cannot sit here and begin to take cases in relation to governors. Regardless of whatever we are trying governors for, there must be a sense of symmetry, a sense of fairness that is universal so that the people in the country will know that the institutions of Government including the National Assembly and the Senate are not particularly targeting governors.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say this without fear of contradiction and I want to invite everybody to share this with me that when a national government is paying Kshs1.4 billion and that is not a matter for impeachment and a governor is using seeds worth Kshs3 million and he is impeached, people out there are beginning to ask if there is a sense of justice. Many people are asking why we are crucifying governors when the mess and the rot is more with the national Government. I am just saying that in order to allow us and enable us function well, the national Government should also lead by example.

With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. I support firmly the names of distinguished Senators who have been proposed to sit in this Committee. I support them because I am one of the Senators who had the privilege of being appointed by this House to sit in the last Committee. I want to encourage my colleagues and tell them that indeed they are equal to the task. It is an onerous task because when I sat in that Committee, a lot of intimidation happens, a lot of gerrymandering, people looking for you so that they can compromise you but I am sure that this team that has been selected by this House will deliver.

I also support firmly the comments of my colleagues that indeed the intention and the purpose of this House is to ensure that justice is dispensed; no matter who is guilty or who is not. As we do that, it is also important as a House that we also pronounce ourselves firmly that we will not sit back although we want to see justice done to governors. We want to make sure that if charges are brought here and are not authenticated, we shall not confirm them. In the same breath, we must tell governors

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I invite everybody to acquaint themselves with Schedule Six, Section 17 of the Constitution 2010 and they will understand what I am saying. However, let me conclude what I was saying by thanking all Members whose names were read here for agreeing because we consulted them before they agreed to serve in this Committee. I want to thank them and to encourage them to be fair, fearless and honest to the law, honest to the facts and to bring an acceptable verdict to this House which we shall own, vote for and support. For the Governor who is watching out there, I want to encourage you that nobody is after you. It is your conduct that will hurt you. I beg to second. (Question proposed)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I also rise to support this Motion. I agree with the comments made by the Senate Majority Leader in support of the Motion and the Senate Minority Leader. I want to repeat, particularly, what the Senate Majority Leader said about our constitutional responsibilities. This is something that we cannot run away from.

Unfortunately, these matters of impeachment, the origination of this process does not lie with the Senate. It lies somewhere else. Once that process has been undertaken in accordance with the law, Constitution and with the County Governments Act and in accordance with the Standing Orders of the County Assemblies, our competencies begin after the Speaker has received a resolution. Once the Speaker has received that resolution, there is a constitutional mandate and authority that must be exercised beginning with the Speaker. Within a number of days, the Speaker must convene the House, for example, if the House is in recess.

All I can say is that nobody out there should be worried about the Senate. I have listened to the Senate in previous proceedings, I have been in one Committee and I am of the fullest confidence that by the nature of those who represent the people of Kenya, we will not take it upon ourselves to punish any Governor for extraneous reasons irrespective of his loyalties politically or his persuasions in any other way. This applies to any Governor; whether he is from the CORD coalition or from the Jubilee Coalition. Once we

the basis of the facts and the law.

I want to appreciate the fact that we have now set a precedence and threshold on the issue of impeachment. I think we have already set the bar where it belongs. I want to repeat the fact that this particular competency and constitutional authority, having been placed in the Senate is for a very good reason. I hope that we, as Senators, will not abuse that responsibility but will do justice to every case that comes before us. Even if they come in their myriads, that will not be the point. At the end of the day, we will want to see justice in every case. If a Governor is brought before us on frivolous grounds, then the Committee will have the responsibility to throw out that case even before the Senate can sit.

The only thing that I am worried about is the people’s sense of justice. If you look at the cases that are being talked about out there and the one that has appeared here before, it is about the use of resources. It is all about resources; how we are using public resources. You remember this fundamental principle of “no taxation

without representation”. The people are concerned about the manner in which we use their resources. In law, there is also a question of symmetry and fairness globally. We cannot sit here and begin to take cases in relation to governors. Regardless of whatever we are trying governors for, there must be a sense of symmetry, a sense of fairness that is universal so that the people in the country will know that the institutions of Government including the National Assembly and the Senate are not particularly targeting governors.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say this without fear of contradiction and I want to invite everybody to share this with me that when a national government is paying Kshs1.4 billion and that is not a matter for impeachment and a governor is using seeds worth Kshs3 million and he is impeached, people out there are beginning to ask if there is a sense of justice. Many people are asking why we are crucifying governors when the mess and the rot is more with the national Government. I am just saying that in order to allow us and enable us function well, the national Government should also lead by example.

With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. I support firmly the names of distinguished Senators who have been proposed to sit in this Committee. I support them because I am one of the Senators who had the privilege of being appointed by this House to sit in the last Committee. I want to encourage my colleagues and tell them that indeed they are equal to the task. It is an onerous task because when I sat in that Committee, a lot of intimidation happens, a lot of gerrymandering, people looking for you so that they can compromise you but I am sure that this team that has been selected by this House will deliver.

I also support firmly the comments of my colleagues that indeed the intention and the purpose of this House is to ensure that justice is dispensed; no matter who is guilty or who is not. As we do that, it is also important as a House that we also pronounce ourselves firmly that we will not sit back although we want to see justice done to governors. We want to make sure that if charges are brought here and are not authenticated, we shall not confirm them. In the same breath, we must tell governors

process has been undertaken here.

I am saying that because in the last process, I sat as a Member of the Committee and this House announced the resolution of the House about the impeachment of the Governor for Embu; but since that time, the Governor has engaged in an endless campaign to ridicule this House. The following day, he was in the press saying that he is not going to be bound by an illegal process. As much as we want to be seen to be fair, it is not going to be at the expense of the jurisdiction and the mandate of this House. How do we impeach a governor after a full hearing of 11 distinguished Senators and the resolution is adopted by a full House and then the following day, he says that he is still the Governor of Embu and he does not recognize the process in the Senate? He also said that he was impeached illegally. We want to be fair and balanced in all the matters that will be brought here about impeachment. We want to dispense justice as it should be. If governors expect this House to be rational, they should also respect us, either singularly or in plural.

This message must go to them very clearly. We have not heard a single voice of any governor including from the Council of Governors, saying that the impeachment of Governor Wambora was a legitimate, legal process undertaken by the Senate. They should pronounce themselves on this matter but up to today, we have not heard a single voice from any of them. Does that silence mean that they also conform or agree to what the Governor of Embu is doing? I just want to take it a little further: How can we let that process bend towards intimidation? We will not go towards speculation but every news channel in this country has been airing the kidnapping or disappearance of the Speaker of Embu County. We do not want to speculate, but we cannot say for sure what happened. I hear that he was found but how can we rule out the fact that the reasons for his disappearance are political? How can we comprehend even for a moment that after such a legal process, it is possible for a legislator to disappear in a country like this one for three or four days without being found? That is not a matter that can be taken lightly. It amounts to intimidation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, how then can we guarantee and justify ourselves that after you, Mr. speaker, pronounce yourself on this matter, God forbid, that we shall not be told that you have disappeared? So, as a House, we have to be firm if we do not want people to play politics or even to ridicule this House.

Order, Sen. Wamatangi! I want to give you the assurance that nobody has the capacity to make me disappear.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. That assurance is necessary because that trend is very worrying. All in all, I support the eleven Members who have been appointed by this House to do the honourable duty of ensuring that justice prevails as far as charges concerning the Governor of Kericho County are concerned.

With those few remarks, I beg to support.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I may be revisiting where you ruled on the procedure in this House. We need to set a precedence on how we rule. As far as my reading of our Standing Orders is concerned, Standing Order No.68 (1) talks of “shall” which is mandatory and then it qualifies with “and”. So, we are skipping

this to be out of order and with all the legal minds in this House, I need some guidance on this before we proceed.

Order. This is on a procedural matter. The Speaker made the ruling on this matter and even the two Members who had raised that point of order have conceded, from the body language and some even vocalized it; they were very satisfied. If you are making reference to the legal minds, the Minority Leader who might be a junior to the Majority Leader in the House but he is senior in practice. So, I think that matter is settled.

Let us proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I may, we are putting the cart before the horse. I need to be on record in this House that if we go on with these proceedings the way we are doing, we might be giving the former Governor of Embu room in another court. We must set standards in the way we are dealing with issues of impeachment in this House. I want to be on record.

Order, Sen. Mong’are. You can be on record through your contribution. That is your entitlement but I think the way you are moving, you may not only be on record but you may be out of the House for that record to be entered.

Most obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order! I have not allowed on the second intervention. That is your own interpretation. There are differing interpretations in this House but unfortunately for you, the Speaker has the final word. That is something you may wish to live with. On this one, I am convinced. It is not just a matter of finality but a proper reading of the law.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the formation of this particular Committee. Before I debate it, allow me to use this opportunity to send my sympathies to members of the family and friends of the Speaker of the County Assembly of Embu and regret that up to now, I have not been able to visit him at the hospital, not because of my own choice but because my lawyer of many years of standing advised me that having chaired that Committee, if I were to go there, it is possible to give an impression that there was an element of connivance between the Chair of the Committee that led to the impeachment of Wambora and the Speaker who led the County Assembly.

Having said that, my fear is that we might be witnessing a response from the merchants of corruption against the Speaker of the County Assembly of Embu. Since we are talking about public resources, we would like the merchants of corruption to know that we have no other home. Our home is called Kenya. In fact, some of us only got a passport after we became professionals. The children of some of those merchants have passports immediately they hit 18 years old. Some of them travel on their parents passports even before they hit 18 years old. They should give us a break because we want to put our house in order and our house is Kenya.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, these are exciting times in Kenya. Those who voted for the new Constitution did not know that this is a living text book. It is speaking and therefore, I want to pay special tribute to the Members of the County Assembly of Kericho and other

impeachment. They are not doing it using the Bible or story books. They are using the Constitution of Kenya. The poor MCAs are damned if they impeach their governors and they are also damned if they do not impeach them. What do you expect the young people to do? When they move on impeachment, people say that they are coercing the governor to give them money or special treatment. When they do not, the same public says that these MCAs have been bought by the governor.

Poor MCAs! I would like them to count on me and I believe oversight requires men and women of integrity. They should continue in that path and even if they are not experienced in oversight the way some of us are, Kenyans should rest assured that that is the court of first incidence. The court that will convict is the Senate. Therefore, it is up to us to stand up and be counted that we are guided by nothing else other than the law.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, without offending the Standing Orders or anybody else in the Lower House, I want to appeal to Members of Parliament from the National Assembly to emulate the indomitable spirit of our MCAs. I have watched through the public domain an attempt to impeach Anne Waiguru. How I wish they could think slightly more; the person to impeach now is not Anne Waiguru, it is the Attorney-General for allowing the payment of Kshs1.4 billion; it is the President for okaying, through a roadside declaration, that public funds be paid to some shadow individuals called Anura Pereira and---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki?

Is Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale in order to repeat and regurgitate a message he has already given in a political rally last week in a baraza and waste the precious time of this Senate by diverting us from the core objects of today to discuss about Anglo Leasing and Kshs1.4 billion? Is he in order to say that the President of Kenya stood by a road, which he has not named and declared that money should be paid?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I think the Senate Leader of Majority is out of order because what is being raised are issues that concern the people he represents here. The same thieves who were paid Kshs1.4 billion are now asking for Kshs3.1 billion. So, what is being said here is that those who have given those instructions, whether they live in heaven, in the sky or inside the water, they must face the law and the law is the Constitution. Is he in order to protect an individual who is a Kenyan who is supposed to protect the Constitution which he is dismantling?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Senators from that side to mislead the public about the payment of Kshs1.4 billion and to utter things they cannot prove and have no proof, other than what was in the newspapers, yet this House does not follow newspaper articles? Is it in order for a House that makes laws to insinuate that when a court of law in another land gives orders, that a country cannot follow, yet we claim that we follow the rule of law? Do we follow the rule of the jungle, or are we going to respect courts, especially even when the Constitution is very clear about international laws? Is it in order? Can we stop this---?

Order, Sen. Mugo!

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Very briefly, I want to say that all I said is that there is the business that has brought us here today. At no time, as my Senior learned friend, Senator Orengo, would want to purport, have I said that you cannot discuss Anglo Leasing or Kshs1.4 billion.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, all I have said is that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale mentioned a roadside declaration which I am not aware of. I said that he has not told us the road by which the President stood – whichever President it was – to give a declaration about Kshs1.4 billion. So, let us not mix issues. If it is politics, because what is happening here

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

But neither will you take advantage of this airtime to also do your politics!

Order, Sen. Mugo!

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Very briefly, I want to say that all I said is that there is the business that has brought us here today. At no time, as my Senior learned friend, Senator Orengo, would want to purport, have I said that you cannot discuss Anglo Leasing or Kshs1.4 billion.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, all I have said is that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale mentioned a roadside declaration which I am not aware of. I said that he has not told us the road by which the President stood – whichever President it was – to give a declaration about Kshs1.4 billion. So, let us not mix issues. If it is politics, because what is happening here

What is it, Sen. Muthama? Mr. Speaker, Sir, my colleague, the Chief Whip, Sen. Elachi, walked in when you were on your feet giving a very serious ruling; and she walked in majestically without bowing and waiting to be cleared by you!

Order! Order! Sen. Elachi, did you do so?

We are dealing with a stranger; so, let us---

What is it, Sen. Muthama? Mr. Speaker, Sir, my colleague, the Chief Whip, Sen. Elachi, walked in when you were on your feet giving a very serious ruling; and she walked in majestically without bowing and waiting to be cleared by you!

Order! Order! Sen. Elachi, did you do so?

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! I think you are also becoming irrelevant.

We are dealing with a stranger; so, let us---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I go back to my debate. It has come to my notice – and that of many Senators who sit here throughout

Order! Order, all of you! Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is on a point of order. Let us hear him. Once again, I will defend the right of every Senator to be heard; trust me on that one!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, when some of us see the casual manner in which you are approached by these three Senators, we either feel that they are special, or that they do not understand the weight of the House that they call Senate. Therefore---

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! I think you are also becoming irrelevant.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my reference is not for today; my reference is to what we have observed over time; but let that one rest.

Then you are completely even more irrelevant on your own admission that it has nothing to do with today! Today is a special sitting; so, do not bring other issues.

Proceed with your contribution.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

The only point that I think, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale would have wished, if I were to represent him the way he purports to represent me, is that, you know, there are some basic things called honesty. A Senator cannot come here and tell me she does not know how she entered the Chamber. So, it is just important to just own up when you are caught; it is the only honorable thing to do. So, let us not play these extras, including people offering their legal services---

Do not speak for me; I think I have the capacity to do it for myself!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my reference is not for today; my reference is to what we have observed over time; but let that one rest.

that we have put the rules of procedure, they will find it slightly easier to proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, given that this is the second time this kind of Motion is coming before us, I hope that the way we will proceed will give Governors and courts a reason to find confidence in this particular House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am delighted to note that I have keenly kept my eyes wide and my ears open; I have not heard that in this particular case of Kericho, the Governor is trying to side step the constitutional provision through which this matter is supposed to be settled. I think this is an area we should give credit, whatever the finding will be by this particular Committee.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to finish by bringing to the attention of Members a remark that was made in a workshop I believe by one of the presenters on accountability of institutions, which I forgot; and you were in that workshop. The presenter said that corruption is not a devolved function.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

The only point that I think, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale would have wished, if I were to represent him the way he purports to represent me, is that, you know, there are some basic things called honesty. A Senator cannot come here and tell me she does not know how she entered the Chamber. So, it is just important to just own up when you are caught; it is the only honorable thing to do. So, let us not play these extras, including people offering their legal services---

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, in support of this Committee – having sat in the other Committee – I would like to give my special thanks to the Office of the Clerk. The Office of the Clerk, sometimes in our previous sittings, was sitting beyond 18 hours in a day to

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you. I also stand to support this Motion. I would also like to appreciate the composition of the Members of this Senate that have been set aside to go and investigate the proposed removal from office of the Governor of Kericho County; and further as indicated here:-

“to report to the Senate within ten (10) days of its appointment on whether it finds the particulars of the allegations to have been substantiated.” So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, whatever has been tabled, coming from the Members of County Assembly (MCAs) of Kericho, are just allegations. It is our duty, as the Senate, to dispense justice; and as indicated in the County Governments Act, we must be diligent and do it within the days that have been shown here – ten days.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this now brings to the fore the role of the Senate as it is clearly indicated in Article 96 of the Constitution. Other than being able to divide the funds, we are also supposed to look at the way the county officers work. We have 47 counties and we recently dealt with the Embu case; it is unfortunate that this one has just come too quickly. We are noting with a lot of concern that a lot of misbehavior is unfolding in the

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was saying that we are discussing this Motion because MCAs of a county called Kericho brought this issue here. But I was using this opportunity to also send a signal outside---

Order! Order, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo! I have repeated that; in fact, I was very clear that you should not discuss things that preceded before the Motion came to the Floor. So, it is the things that you are saying that are out of order. If you do not have anything to say, you can conclude.

What is it, Sen. Muthama? Mr. Speaker, Sir, this debate is becoming next to impossible because you cannot debate without giving illustrations on certain things, otherwise the debate will be too dry. If that is the way we are going, let us just say the names are in front of us; we have read them, we just approve them and go!

In fact, that is the point of the debate! That is the Motion!

He is completely out of order.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. What is it, Sen. Orengo?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am finding the distinguished Senator in a lot of difficulties, because he is not saying that he is saying anything. He is just saying that he is sending a signal! I think a signal sometimes can be appropriate, especially when you are forgotten!

Order, Sen. Muthama! Speak for yourself! If you have such difficulties, the contributors who have gone ahead of you have been contributing very well. It is just one or two people; those ones who are sending signals. We are just saying that this is not a place to send signals!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is now putting words in my mouth. I said that some of them and we cannot rule out that because it is only the Committee that will exonerate them.

Order. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, I thought you would seek refuge in my declaration of you out of order. So that matter should not be entertained any further.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am finding the distinguished Senator in a lot of difficulties, because he is not saying that he is saying anything. He is just saying that he is sending a signal! I think a signal sometimes can be appropriate, especially when you are forgotten!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you can see the situation I am in. What I am trying to say is that it is essential that we also mention that we do not know how many are maliciously planning to bring some impeachments which may not be based on anything. So, it is important to mention so that the---

Will it help you, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, to know that when the Committee has now considered the matter, because the Committee is going to look into the allegations and substantiate them, then they will bring them to you? Then that is the time you will have realized the kind of allegations that were being brought and you can even try to infer the possible reasons why that allegation may have been brought and you fail to substantiate. That will be perfectly in order. So, you will have another opportunity. It is that this is not the opportunity.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Senator for West “P” is stating in the Senate and he wants---

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Which county is that one?

Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir, for coming to my aid. I would like to advise this Committee that there is no big or small corruption and that there is no big or small misuse of the law. We must note that if a Governor is going to steal a chicken and he says that he has bought it for Kshs2, 000 when we know that the price is Kshs500, the national Government will also flout the law and tell us that a court has ruled in England when we know that it has been done by consent and that they can pay Kshs1.4 billion, the threshold is the same---

Order, Sen. Ong’era. That matter has been dispensed with. This Motion is narrow and there is nothing stopping you from coming up with a Motion on your favourite topic. For now, just deal with the matter before the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand guided. I was advising the Committee that the threshold for corruption is the same and therefore, ---

The Speaker (Hon. Ethuro) But that matter is not before the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand guided by your ruling. I would like this Committee to come with a report that will put this House where we want to go. This is a House which is the guardian of devolution. We cannot speak about this issue without looking at other issues, for example, coming up with legislation that sets a threshold with which we look at how a Governor has behaved and another official in the national Government has behaved. Therefore, it behooves this Senate to come up with legislation or amendments to legislations that can set a threshold with which we can debate these matters. I would like to assure our brothers in the Jubilee Coalition Government---, until the issue of Kshs1.6 billion is clarified to us.

I support.

Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir, for coming to my aid. I would like to advise this Committee that there is no big or small corruption and that there is no big or small misuse of the law. We must note that if a Governor is going to steal a chicken and he says that he has bought it for Kshs2, 000 when we know that the price is Kshs500, the national Government will also flout the law and tell us that a court has ruled in England when we know that it has been done by consent and that they can pay Kshs1.4 billion, the threshold is the same---

Order, Sen. Ong’era. That matter has been dispensed with. This Motion is narrow and there is nothing stopping you from coming up with a Motion on your favourite topic. For now, just deal with the matter before the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand guided. I was advising the Committee that the threshold for corruption is the same and therefore, ---

The Speaker (Hon. Ethuro) But that matter is not before the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand guided by your ruling. I would like this Committee to come with a report that will put this House where we want to go. This is a House which is the guardian of devolution. We cannot speak about this issue without looking at other issues, for example, coming up with legislation that sets a threshold with which we look at how a Governor has behaved and another official in the national Government has behaved. Therefore, it behooves this Senate to come up with legislation or amendments to legislations that can set a threshold with which we can debate these matters. I would like to assure our brothers in the Jubilee Coalition Government---, until the issue of Kshs1.6 billion is clarified to us.

I support.

discharging this afternoon? Some people have been writing a lot of articles in the newspapers intimidating us. They have been telling us that we cannot be dismissing Governors every other day and that we are undermining devolution. They have been reminding us that it is our duty to protect devolution as if this is not protecting devolution. In fact, what we are doing now is protecting devolution, the counties and the county government against itself because we do not want them to be destroyed because of the misbehavior of one officer or one institution against the other. So it is our responsibility and obligation to do what we are doing. As at now, we are deciding to take it to a committee but we could as well sit as the entire Senate and become a tribunal and take evidence and ask questions. But we have decided that a Committee acts much more efficiently and can spend more hours and deal with more facts better and advise us accordingly. So, we are doing our job. We are exhibiting our fidelity to the Constitution.

If there is any reason I came to this Senate – when I was campaigning many people asked me why I wanted to go to the Senate. It is because I came here to protect the Constitution. I told them that wherever I went, and they wondered what it is like to protect the Constitution. This is what I am doing. I did not see the name of the Governor here but I read from the newspapers that he is a professor and he understands that we are just doing our job and he is doing his and the County Assembly is doing theirs. The only institution that I think is interfering with every other institution which I will bring a Motion here so that we debate it is the courts. After the County Assembly of Embu did its job and the Senate did its job and the Speaker gazetted what we had done, then some villagers went to court and said that they also wanted to be heard and yet they are already been represented in all these institutions.

Every institution must be left to do its job. If the courts were to find that there was something unconstitutional about what we did, anybody could have appealed. But, really, to claim to want to listen to the villagers, what if another group of 45 villagers and another 70 villagers come forward? We will be hearing matters on a daily basis from different groups of villagers from every part of this country and yet they are just busybodies. So, the courts must make us feel that they are doing their job, but they should also leave everybody else to do their job. That is how this country will move forward.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have seen from the Press that most of the charges are about procurement. I can tell you, when you talk of procurement, you are talking about corruption. They are almost the same words. When you use the word “procurement”, the Kenyan who listens to you sees “corruption”. This is because most of the corruption in this country has arisen from procurement. That is why I want to warn the governors to be very particular with procurement issues. They should leave this to the professionals to do it well. But they should also supervise to make sure that the rules are followed because when the professionals mess, the governors might end up here for no reason. I heard the other governor say: “It was not me, it was my officers and the procurement department.” Eventually, it ends up with an individual. I hope that we will train the governors before we bring too many of them here. They should look at their procurement departments keenly.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity to contribute to this Motion. Our constitutional responsibility includes impeachment. It is something we cannot run away from, it is a responsibility that we have to take. As the Senate, we have taken this responsibility seriously. We also want to have the public understand what this role really entails. It is about protecting counties to ensure that they are able to reap the fruits of devolution.

When the public blames us for impeachment without realizing that this is a process that starts from the MCAs who are closer to their counties and the goings on in those counties--- A total of 32 MCAs from Kericho County Assembly all voted for the impeachment of the Governor of Kericho County and the charges were presented to the Senate. You have made it very clear that these charges are availed to us in the documents that we can pick, so that we can actually go through those charges.

It is important for us, as the Senate, to make sure that we look at those charges and in that Special Committee, the Governor should present himself before the Committee to defend himself from those charges so that those charges are substantiated. If the Committee finds those charges substantiated, the Senate will then impeach the governor. It is, therefore, important for governors, when knowing they are facing specific charges, to have ways, means and evidence of finding out how to use that opportunity to make a case for themselves and to show that their hands are clean. From the Senate perspective, it is very clear that if there is any governor who has engaged in any sort of malpractices, if these matters get to the Senate, we must deal with them.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have not sent any signal to anybody.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. My conscience is very clear that we are moving in the right direction because if you consider Standing Order No.68 (1) (a) as read together with Standing Order No.68 (1) (b) , we are within our mandate to constitute this Committee. The 11 names that have been proposed have got the skills, experience, discipline and qualifications to objectively execute the mandate that is before them.

Elsewhere, the Senate has been accused of impeaching governors. I find this very ridiculous because this Senate does not impeach governors. Governors are impeached by their own county assembly MCAs. The Senate only executes its constitutional mandate when the matter of impeachment is brought before it and to interrogate the charges brought against the governor and to sustain or exonerate the governor.

I want to state that collectively as a Senate and individually as Senators, we have nothing against governors. As a matter of fact, when you look at any committee that is constituted like in this case, only one Senator comes from that county. So, for people, especially in the Press to accuse the Senate of fighting political battles by impeaching governors is really a misrepresentation of facts. We have nothing against any governor or county assembly. Of course, as the Senate, we have everything against the

various governors and county assemblies. As a Senate, we have everything against the violation and breaching of any constitutional provisions, whether by an individual, state organ, county assembly or any other level of government, even the national Government.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in conclusion, I want to state that even as we execute this mandate very passionately, because we are protecting public funds, we cannot excuse ourselves from making reference to the two levels of government because we know very well that at the promulgation of the new Constitution, the system of governance in this country shifted from a centralized system of governance to a devolved system. But there is an interrelated platform about which the Senate stands as the bridge between the national Government and the county governments. Even as we interrogate the excesses of the county governments, it cannot escape our attention to, once in a while, relate the excesses of the county governments to the excesses or breaches of the Constitution by the national Government.

For example, when we consider the issue of the standard gauge railway line where we have been presented with a figure that is double what was originally presented in a period of just a few months---. If you have anybody interrogate this matter, that a private company will come here and present to us a bill of Kshs200 billion and then about three or four months later, present to us a bill of Kshs427 billion, you ask yourself, as a citizen, what extreme factors were considered to change this figure from Kshs200 billion to Kshs427 billion?

With those remarks, I support the Motion before us.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity to contribute to this Motion. Our constitutional responsibility includes impeachment. It is something we cannot run away from, it is a responsibility that we have to take. As the Senate, we have taken this responsibility seriously. We also want to have the public understand what this role really entails. It is about protecting counties to ensure that they are able to reap the fruits of devolution.

When the public blames us for impeachment without realizing that this is a process that starts from the MCAs who are closer to their counties and the goings on in those counties--- A total of 32 MCAs from Kericho County Assembly all voted for the impeachment of the Governor of Kericho County and the charges were presented to the Senate. You have made it very clear that these charges are availed to us in the documents that we can pick, so that we can actually go through those charges.

It is important for us, as the Senate, to make sure that we look at those charges and in that Special Committee, the Governor should present himself before the Committee to defend himself from those charges so that those charges are substantiated. If the Committee finds those charges substantiated, the Senate will then impeach the governor. It is, therefore, important for governors, when knowing they are facing specific charges, to have ways, means and evidence of finding out how to use that opportunity to make a case for themselves and to show that their hands are clean. From the Senate perspective, it is very clear that if there is any governor who has engaged in any sort of malpractices, if these matters get to the Senate, we must deal with them.

that did us proud. The Committee was led by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Even as we go to this second Committee, we do so with a lot of confidence. The new Members that are coming to this Committee will bring in the values of integrity and responsibility. So, we are proud about this. We also have very good gender and regional representation. We have a good example from the first committee. The commitment and hard work that was put into the committee is what we expect to continue not only in this Committee, but in other future committees that are going to be established by the Senate. More importantly, the Special Committees enable us to delve into details, to get into the facts of these charges and discuss these facts at length, so that we can get to the bottom of the matter. This further allows us to take evidence where that evidence is necessary and to deliberate so that we come up with a conclusion that we are confident about. If the decision is to impeach a governor, it is not done lightly, but with a lot of time spent and the process done in a prudent manner.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the charges that have been leveled and the ones we can get from the documents that have been given will also help us, as a Senate, even as we come to the deliberations, to be very clear about the issues that we are discussing. We, as the Senate, stand to show that counties and county governments are protected. We need the Kenyan public to appreciate this role. They should support us, as we perform this important function of ensuring that devolution succeeds in this country.

With those remarks, I beg to support.

Yes, Sen. Murkomen.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am so much concerned about the reference the Senator has made to me. I hope that he is not giving somebody an idea; lo and behold!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I like giving examples about my mentor. If he disappears, that will be very serious. I was saying that for that reason, this House needs to pronounce itself properly on this matter. We were told that JM Kariuki disappeared and somebody else told the House that he was in Zambia having fun. However, he was found dead in Ngong. We were told that Ouko had travelled from somewhere in Koru to co-host a function in Gambia as a Minister for Foreign Affairs, however, his remains were found in Got Alila. We cannot allow a situation where a public officer or any citizen of this country is allowed to disappear like that, for whatever reason. That issue must be taken up by this House. I believe that your office can lead this House to ensure that this Senate addresses that matter substantively at a given time.

Finally, I want to give a message, clearly, to the Governor of Kericho. If you are innocent, you have nothing to fear. You have already shown humility and we support you for deciding that you will not run to the courts. We want to support him for what he has done right. If he is innocent, of course, we have to make a decision. We have to do what we must do, however, painful it is. That is the position of the law.

For all those reasons, I stand to say that I support counties. I am not one of the people who bash county assemblies. County Assemblies have done their job. Any Senator who will be quoted by the press bashing any County Assembly Member for performing a function over which we have an appellate jurisdiction; telling them that they are a lynch mob will not be correct. We have a second chance to correct the decisions they will have made.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the distinguished Senator for Elgeyo-Marakwet to say what he has just said when I have seen him on television with his colleagues bashing Members of County Assemblies (MCAs)?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to call the Mover to reply? The issues being articulated are the same.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am so much concerned about the reference the Senator has made to me. I hope that he is not giving somebody an idea; lo and behold!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I like giving examples about my mentor. If he disappears, that will be very serious. I was saying that for that reason, this House needs to pronounce itself properly on this matter. We were told that JM Kariuki disappeared and somebody else told the House that he was in Zambia having fun. However, he was found dead in Ngong. We were told that Ouko had travelled from somewhere in Koru to co-host a function in Gambia as a Minister for Foreign Affairs, however, his remains were found in Got Alila. We cannot allow a situation where a public officer or any citizen of this country is allowed to disappear like that, for whatever reason. That issue must be taken up by this House. I believe that your office can lead this House to ensure that this Senate addresses that matter substantively at a given time.Finally, I want to give a message, clearly, to the Governor of Kericho. If you are innocent, you have nothing to fear. You have already shown humility and we support you for deciding that you will not run to the courts. We want to support him for what he has done right. If he is innocent, of course, we have to make a decision. We have to do what we must do, however, painful it is. That is the position of the law.For all those reasons, I stand to say that I support counties. I am not one of the people who bash county assemblies. County Assemblies have done their job. Any Senator who will be quoted by the press bashing any County Assembly Member for performing a function over which we have an appellate jurisdiction; telling them that they are a lynch mob will not be correct. We have a second chance to correct the decisions they will have made.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, seeing the mood of the House, I beg to move.

Ring the division bell for eight minutes; then we will go to roll call voting.

Order, Senators! The eight minutes are over. Close the door and draw the bar. The following are the names of the Tellers: For Ayes, Sen. Murkomen and for the Noes, Sen. Kanainza. We shall now proceed with the voting.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the distinguished Senator for Elgeyo-Marakwet to say what he has just said when I have seen him on television with his colleagues bashing Members of County Assemblies (MCAs)?

He is in order because he was talking about any Senator. He did not excuse himself. Maybe this is his Damascus point.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. For the record, I have never, ever bashed Members of County Assemblies. I have always given them, as the Chair of Devolution, advice so that any time they exercise a certain function, they ensure that it is not used for intimidation, blackmail, or so forth. However, I have never told them that it is wrong for them to use an oversight function to impeach any person who has violated the law.

My responsibility as the Chair of Devolution Committee is to give advisory services to the county governments. We tell them, county assembles, continue doing what you are doing but do not use it for intimidation or blackmail.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows. First, we have disallowed one vote---

An hon. Senator: What?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I do not have a problem with what hon. Keter has said. However, coming as a person who comes from Kericho, could he be having a personal interest on this matter?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the sake of clarity, I have no personal interest. Order, Sen. Keter. Do not feel any compulsion, to any Senator, to respond to issues that the Speaker has not declared that you should

of facts and should not be intimidated. Therefore, neither should you be intimidated by the Senator from Homa Bay County. The matter you raised has nothing to do with you declaring interests. That was a matter of closure of debate. What interest is there, Sen. Kajwang?

In fact, from my own observation, there was no other Senator who was interested in contributing. So, Sen. Keter was just being more than enthusiastic to inform the Speaker that there is no other Senator interested in contributing. I will put the question. This is Motion affecting counties. I will call upon the Mover to reply, then we go to roll call voting.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, seeing the mood of the House, I beg to move.

Ring the division bell for eight minutes; then we will go to roll call voting.

Order, Senators! The eight minutes are over. Close the door and draw the bar. The following are the names of the Tellers: For Ayes, Sen. Murkomen and for the Noes, Sen. Kanainza. We shall now proceed with the voting.

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows. First, we have disallowed one vote---

An hon. Senator: What?